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Post by flea79 on Oct 2, 2024 13:38:20 GMT
how close are we too war?
i worked with a couple of iranians when i lived in Dubai, they were Persians though, the most lovely people you can imagine and the female remains one of the most stunning women i have ever seen or had the pleasure to be around!
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 2, 2024 13:45:11 GMT
When I read this post it got me thinking about this whole situation......to the point where its just so confusing. If we're brutally honest now, this has been going on for decades and sadly it doesnt look like stopping. So the simple question for all parties in this is: What does Israel want..? What do Lebanon/Hesbollah want ? Theres so much tit for tat retaliations and with this sad conflict going on for so long, people forget what it is each group actually wants and are trying to achieve...at least for me it does. The stated aim of Hezbollah and the current regime in Iran is to eradicate Isreal as a nation state. And given the chance that is exactly what they will do. I am not condoning the actions of the Isreali government in relation to the Palestinians and the people of Lebanon but that is the stark reality behind the conflict. So how do you resolve a conflict where one side is determined to eradicate the other?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 2, 2024 14:05:05 GMT
When I read this post it got me thinking about this whole situation......to the point where its just so confusing. If we're brutally honest now, this has been going on for decades and sadly it doesnt look like stopping. So the simple question for all parties in this is: What does Israel want..? What do Lebanon/Hesbollah want ? Theres so much tit for tat retaliations and with this sad conflict going on for so long, people forget what it is each group actually wants and are trying to achieve...at least for me it does. The stated aim of Hezbollah and the current regime in Iran is to eradicate Isreal as a nation state. And given the chance that is exactly what they will do. I am not condoning the actions of the Isreali government in relation to the Palestinians and the people of Lebanon but that is the stark reality behind the conflict. So how do you resolve a conflict where one side is determined to eradicate the other? The more radical the Israeli regime the more radical it's opponents. We had a moderate Iranian regime not that long ago when we could have built bridges and chose not to. The starting point has to be a pathway to ending the occupation and a two state solution. It will take a brave Israeli leader to start the ball rolling......
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 2, 2024 14:08:52 GMT
how close are we too war? i worked with a couple of iranians when i lived in Dubai, they were Persians though, the most lovely people you can imagine and the female remains one of the most stunning women i have ever seen or had the pleasure to be around! Iranians are in the main fantastic, hospitable people and and most people who have travelled there even under the current regime would say the same thing. I still think the Iranian response is performative at the moment, how quickly things escalate will depend on the US thirst for a full blooded conflict or not. I hope in the background Israel's allies (of which there are many) are doing everything in their power to plead for restraint......
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 14:17:25 GMT
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Oct 2, 2024 14:17:25 GMT
Doesn't matter what other countries say or do,this conflict in the middle east will go on for decades.
There will be moments of calm,but it will kick off again,so on & so forth.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 14:24:22 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 2, 2024 14:24:22 GMT
Like I said, it's slightly more nuanced than "fuck Israel". I didn't say "fuck Israel"........ "Are you telling me in all seriousness I as a British citizen should full show support to such a country?
Respectfully, fuck that............."That is de facto saying "fuck Israel" however you choose to twist it.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 14:26:02 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 2, 2024 14:26:02 GMT
how close are we too war? i worked with a couple of iranians when i lived in Dubai, they were Persians though, the most lovely people you can imagine and the female remains one of the most stunning women i have ever seen or had the pleasure to be around! It's complicated. Most of the countries in the Gulf region hate the Iranian regime and everything it stands for - especially Saudi Arabia which is arguably the main player in the area (along with Israel).
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 14:34:25 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 2, 2024 14:34:25 GMT
I didn't say "fuck Israel"........ "Are you telling me in all seriousness I as a British citizen should full show support to such a country?
Respectfully, fuck that............."That is de facto saying "fuck Israel" however you choose to twist it. Don't be ridiculous. In that context (which is extremely important), the words "fuck that" are being used to convey the sentiment "NOT A CHANCE I'm doing that". As in "go and jump off that cliif" ... "no, fuck that!" Really the only person who has 'twisted' anything here Ariel, is yourself.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 14:40:51 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 2, 2024 14:40:51 GMT
When I read this post it got me thinking about this whole situation......to the point where its just so confusing. If we're brutally honest now, this has been going on for decades and sadly it doesnt look like stopping. So the simple question for all parties in this is: What does Israel want..? What do Lebanon/Hesbollah want ? Theres so much tit for tat retaliations and with this sad conflict going on for so long, people forget what it is each group actually wants and are trying to achieve...at least for me it does. The stated aim of Hezbollah and the current regime in Iran is to eradicate Isreal as a nation state. And given the chance that is exactly what they will do. I am not condoning the actions of the Isreali government in relation to the Palestinians and the people of Lebanon but that is the stark reality behind the conflict. So how do you resolve a conflict where one side is determined to eradicate the other? This would be a start, not a chance of course if US foreign policy doesn't radically change however ...
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 14:50:26 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 2, 2024 14:50:26 GMT
The stated aim of Hezbollah and the current regime in Iran is to eradicate Isreal as a nation state. And given the chance that is exactly what they will do. I am not condoning the actions of the Isreali government in relation to the Palestinians and the people of Lebanon but that is the stark reality behind the conflict. So how do you resolve a conflict where one side is determined to eradicate the other? This would be a start, not a chance of course if US foreign policy doesn't radically change however ... The cause of the conflict goes back to UK partition, and centuries before that if you want to push the envelope as some do. At the moment Iran is funding, propping up, arming and encouraging paramilitary groups within Lebanon, Gaza, and Syria to attack Israel in retribution for Israel's response to the Hamas attack of 7 October 2023. The sole reason Iran is doing what it doing now is precisely because US foreign policy cannot change during a US Presidential election run in; US has to back Israel; Israel has to defend itself; Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf States are sent into a semi-permanent state of flux as they 1. don't want to see Israeli incursions into Lebanon, but 2. despise the Iranian regime more than anything else on the planet.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 14:50:26 GMT
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 2, 2024 14:50:26 GMT
I think it's still too early to tell but the first results look like an attempt at military targets. Iran's regime does evil shit and supports civilian slaughterers, but this attack on first glance looks... I was gonna say "kosher" but that's definitely the wrong word. I guess it is easier to fire at military targets if they aren’t amongst schools and hospitals though like the way Hamas set up in Gaza. I wonder if Israel didn’t have such good defences whether civilians would have been hit. I suspect so. Before I get attacked for saying something not 100% against Israel, what Israel’s government is doing is awful and went well beyond defending itself a long time ago. That doesn’t make their enemies good though. I also think it's "easier" for Iran not to be obviously evil in this attack. They only have limited missiles so they could hope to overwhelm a handful of targets. Would they rather hit airbases and potentially do real damage, or hit civilian areas that clearly hosted nothing military, and face more international outrage? What would Iran do if faced with military targets inside civilian areas? Or if they were right next door and had thousands of cheap air bombs to drop? I think it's naive to assume they'd have strict rules of war.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 14:54:49 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 2, 2024 14:54:49 GMT
This would be a start, not a chance of course if US foreign policy doesn't radically change however ... The cause of the conflict goes back to UK partition, and centuries before that if you want to push the envelope as some do. At the moment Iran is funding, propping up, arming and encouraging paramilitary groups within Lebanon, Gaza, and Syria to attack Israel in retribution for Israel's response to the Hamas attack of 7 October 2023. The sole reason Iran is doing what it doing now is precisely because US foreign policy cannot change during a US Presidential election run in; US has to back Israel; Israel has to defend itself; Saudi Arabia and the other Gulf States are sent into a semi-permanent state of flux as they 1. don't want to see Israeli incursions into Lebanon, but 2. despise the Iranian regime more than anything else on the planet. Eh? Nobody has said anything to the contrary. And your post has got bugger all to do with what Safadi said. Very odd.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 14:56:21 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 2, 2024 14:56:21 GMT
I guess it is easier to fire at military targets if they aren’t amongst schools and hospitals though like the way Hamas set up in Gaza. I wonder if Israel didn’t have such good defences whether civilians would have been hit. I suspect so. Before I get attacked for saying something not 100% against Israel, what Israel’s government is doing is awful and went well beyond defending itself a long time ago. That doesn’t make their enemies good though. I also think it's "easier" for Iran not to be obviously evil in this attack. They only have limited missiles so they could hope to overwhelm a handful of targets. Would they rather hit airbases and potentially do real damage, or hit civilian areas that clearly hosted nothing military, and face more international outrage? What would Iran do if faced with military targets inside civilian areas? Or if they were right next door and had thousands of cheap air bombs to drop? I think it's naive to assume they'd have strict rules of war. Agree- that's the dilemma. It's also the reason there is such outrage at Israel's actions in targeting civilian areas in Beirut (Hezbollah have bases underneath civilian areas). Presumably, there would be a quid pro quo were it not for the fact that by being seemingly restrained in undertaking targeted military strikes it is seeking to antagonise Israel to such an extent that it does something silly.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 2, 2024 15:00:37 GMT
I guess it is easier to fire at military targets if they aren’t amongst schools and hospitals though like the way Hamas set up in Gaza. I wonder if Israel didn’t have such good defences whether civilians would have been hit. I suspect so. Before I get attacked for saying something not 100% against Israel, what Israel’s government is doing is awful and went well beyond defending itself a long time ago. That doesn’t make their enemies good though. I also think it's "easier" for Iran not to be obviously evil in this attack. They only have limited missiles so they could hope to overwhelm a handful of targets. Would they rather hit airbases and potentially do real damage, or hit civilian areas that clearly hosted nothing military, and face more international outrage? What would Iran do if faced with military targets inside civilian areas? Or if they were right next door and had thousands of cheap air bombs to drop? I think it's naive to assume they'd have strict rules of war. To be fair, the Mossad HQ is right in the centre of a built up civilian part of Tel Aviv. There's no question, that if Iran had wanted to, they could have flattened everything around it, if they had chosen to.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 15:08:47 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 2, 2024 15:08:47 GMT
IDF has admitted to at least 8 deaths in its incursion into Lebanon so far (although the casualties from the rest of today, including Maroun al-Ra'as which is said to have many deaths, have not yet been released):-
– Captain Harel Etinger, 23, a team commander in the Egoz Commando Unit, from Eli.
– Captain Itai Ariel Giat, 23, of the Yahalom Combat Engineering Unit, from Shoham.
– Captain Eitan Olster, 23, a team commander in the Egoz Unit.
– Sgt. First Class Noam Barzilay, 22, of the Egoz Commando Unit, from Kohav Yair.
– Sgt. First Class Or Mantzur, 21, of the Egoz Commando Unit, from Beit Aryeh.
– Sgt. First Class Nazar Itkin, 21, of the Egoz Commando Unit, from Kiryat Atta.
– Staff Sgt. Almken Terefe, 21, of the Golani Brigade's reconnaissance unit, from Jerusalem.
– Staff Sgt. Ido Broyer, 21, of the Golani Brigade's reconnaissance unit, from Nes Tziona.
3 Israeli Merkava tanks with ATGMs which were destroyed when advancing towards Maroun al-Ra'as
Given it's Day One of the Israeli ground incursion, that's a hell of a big loss to take.
Just to calm things down, President Erdogan of Turkey has just said:
"Occupation, terror and aggression are already at our doorstep. What we have in front of us is not a state bound by law, but a gang of murderers."
Decide for yourselves who he's talking about.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 2, 2024 15:12:38 GMT
It wants to do that by constantly breaking international law, by stealing the land and livelihoods of the people already living there. Are you telling me in all seriousness I as a British citizen should full show support to such a country? Respectfully, fuck that............. Indeed his final line in quotation marks, is both staggeringly ignorant and beyond ironic. I was paraphrasing: www.linkedin.com/pulse/us-today-tomorrow-you-dan-riceIsrael is a democratic country that is under attack from terrorists supported by despotic regimes to the North. The world's democracies must defend Israel against those who wish to wipe it off the map. We must all fight terrorism. It is noticeable the despotic regimes to the South of Israel are quiet and are happy to see Israel doing their work for them fighting terrorists who would threaten to overthrow their kingdoms given the chance.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Oct 2, 2024 15:22:28 GMT
I didn't say "fuck Israel"........ "Are you telling me in all seriousness I as a British citizen should full show support to such a country?
Respectfully, fuck that............."That is de facto saying "fuck Israel" however you choose to twist it. It really isn't.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 15:28:54 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 2, 2024 15:28:54 GMT
Indeed his final line in quotation marks, is both staggeringly ignorant and beyond ironic. I was paraphrasing: www.linkedin.com/pulse/us-today-tomorrow-you-dan-riceIsrael is a democratic country that is under attack from terrorists supported by despotic regimes to the North. The world's democracies must defend Israel against those who wish to wipe it off the map. We must all fight terrorism. It is noticeable the despotic regimes to the South of Israel are quiet and are happy to see Israel doing their work for them fighting terrorists who would threaten to overthrow their kingdoms given the chance. "Israel is a democratic country that is under attack from terrorists supported by despotic regimes to the North.
The world's democracies must defend Israel against those who wish to wipe it off the map. We must all fight terrorism."That's pretty much the diplomatic worldview. It's Isaac and Ishmael all over again.
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Post by lordb on Oct 2, 2024 16:04:21 GMT
how close are we too war? i worked with a couple of iranians when i lived in Dubai, they were Persians though, the most lovely people you can imagine and the female remains one of the most stunning women i have ever seen or had the pleasure to be around! To all intents and purposes Israel is already at war with Iran As British jet planes have been involved so are we
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 2, 2024 16:13:53 GMT
It's a fair question ...
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 16:34:54 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 2, 2024 16:34:54 GMT
how close are we too war? i worked with a couple of iranians when i lived in Dubai, they were Persians though, the most lovely people you can imagine and the female remains one of the most stunning women i have ever seen or had the pleasure to be around! To all intents and purposes Israel is already at war with Iran As British jet planes have been involved so are we The British jest involved (two of them) flew out of Cyprus and were inly acting as a deterrent - they were not involved int he direct shooting down of any rockets.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 16:39:45 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 2, 2024 16:39:45 GMT
Just to calm things down further, Iran’s president is currently in Doha, Qatar, meeting with the Emir of Qatar. They are due to hold a Press conference soon.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 17:10:30 GMT
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 2, 2024 17:10:30 GMT
To be fair, the Mossad HQ is right in the centre of a built up civilian part of Tel Aviv. There's no question, that if Iran had wanted to, they could have flattened everything around it, if they had chosen to. Yeah, but it would have taken up a huge number of their best, very expensive missiles. Given their resources they were logically pushed to do a military attack here IMO. I don't think this tells us that their "rules of engagement" are any less deadly than Israel's. But this attack has appearances of being far more acceptable/justified/proportionate than Israel's flattening of much of Gaza.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 17:17:54 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 2, 2024 17:17:54 GMT
Joe Biden: 'I do not support an Israeli attack on Iran's nuclear sites… We will discuss with the Israelis what they can do, and what we agree on their right to respond, but their response must be proportional'
Iran's permanent representative to the UN: ‘We have tried the diplomatic path, with no success. Israel clearly only understands the language of force. If necessary, we will beat them into submission.'
Al Jazeera
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 17:21:38 GMT
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Post by mtrstudent on Oct 2, 2024 17:21:38 GMT
Some of the early damage assessments from people I trust are saying that Israel wasn't greatly damaged. And the actual missile count was like ~180.
The assumed attack on Mossad HQ clearly didn't hit. One crater is like 600 m away.
Anyone seen satellite imagery of the airbases? I see 4 main options:
1. Israel is lying, Iran broke through and it hurt 2. Israel is semi-lying, Iran broke through but the missiles were inaccurate enough that they missed 3. Israel is mostly honest: they knew Iran's missiles are inaccurate so they let them through and gambled 4. Israel is honest and smart: their defences could detect which missiles were gonna miss in real time and just let those ones through.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 17:30:26 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 2, 2024 17:30:26 GMT
Some of the early damage assessments from people I trust are saying that Israel wasn't greatly damaged. And the actual missile count was like ~180. The assumed attack on Mossad HQ clearly didn't hit. One crater is like 600 m away. Anyone seen satellite imagery of the airbases? I see 4 main options: 1. Israel is lying, Iran broke through and it hurt 2. Israel is semi-lying, Iran broke through but the missiles were inaccurate enough that they missed 3. Israel is mostly honest: they knew Iran's missiles are inaccurate so they let them through and gambled 4. Israel is honest and smart: their defences could detect which missiles were gonna miss in real time and just let those ones through. Israel, from what I can tell, is blocking most of the satellite imagery with what appears to be cloud cover. As you say, though, it’s a little bit dependent upon perspective at least until there is independent verification.
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Post by gawa on Oct 2, 2024 17:36:12 GMT
When I read this post it got me thinking about this whole situation......to the point where its just so confusing. If we're brutally honest now, this has been going on for decades and sadly it doesnt look like stopping. So the simple question for all parties in this is: What does Israel want..? What do Lebanon/Hesbollah want ? Theres so much tit for tat retaliations and with this sad conflict going on for so long, people forget what it is each group actually wants and are trying to achieve...at least for me it does. The stated aim of Hezbollah and the current regime in Iran is to eradicate Isreal as a nation state. And given the chance that is exactly what they will do. I am not condoning the actions of the Isreali government in relation to the Palestinians and the people of Lebanon but that is the stark reality behind the conflict. So how do you resolve a conflict where one side is determined to eradicate the other? Was Hezbollah not created in response to attacks by Israel? So what does that make Israels aim? Especially given zionists believe parts of West Bank, Jordan, Gaza, Syria etc.. are their promised land. So how do you resolve a conflict where one power is bankrolled and armed to the 10th degree and the same power never faces any sanctions because if Uncle Sam says no at UN votes then it doesn't happen. Especially when said country believe they're entitled to these lands due to a religious book. Which land are the Lebanese or Palestine trying to take over from another state out of interest? Would Hezbollah exist if it wasn't for the 1982 invasion of Lebannon? So what created these said terrorists then? Everything points at one state. Maybe they'll invade Jordan next and the Jordanians will form a resistance army. And in 30 years time you can tell us all how Israel is defending itself from said resistance which was formed due to being invaded by Israel...
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 17:53:36 GMT
Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 2, 2024 17:53:36 GMT
The stated aim of Hezbollah and the current regime in Iran is to eradicate Isreal as a nation state. And given the chance that is exactly what they will do. I am not condoning the actions of the Isreali government in relation to the Palestinians and the people of Lebanon but that is the stark reality behind the conflict. So how do you resolve a conflict where one side is determined to eradicate the other? Was Hezbollah not created in response to attacks by Israel? So what does that make Israels aim? Especially given zionists believe parts of West Bank, Jordan, Gaza, Syria etc.. are their promised land. So how do you resolve a conflict where one power is bankrolled and armed to the 10th degree and the same power never faces any sanctions because if Uncle Sam says no at UN votes then it doesn't happen. Especially when said country believe they're entitled to these lands due to a religious book. Which land are the Lebanese or Palestine trying to take over from another state out of interest? Would Hezbollah exist if it wasn't for the 1982 invasion of Lebannon? So what created these said terrorists then? Everything points at one state. Maybe they'll invade Jordan next and the Jordanians will form a resistance army. And in 30 years time you can tell us all how Israel is defending itself from said resistance which was formed due to being invaded by Israel... Was Hezbollah created in response to attacks on Lebanon by Israel? Yes. It was created and funded by Iran. Which land are the Lebanese or Palestinians trying to take over from another state? Hezbollah and Hamas seek the holistic destruction of the state of Israel. Would Hezbollah exist if it wasn’t for the 1982 invasion of Lebanon? Not on its current guise, but Iran would have found a way of creating anti-Israeli tension given the modern day backdrop dates back to 1947. Who created these terrorists? The UK helped to create modern day Israel and perpetuated the Middle Eastern issue as we know it from the foundation for British involvement in Palestine as laid with the Balfour Declaration of 1917 (the British government's support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people” and also stipulated that the rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine should not be prejudiced. The aftermath of World War II and the revelations of the Holocaust intensified global sympathy for Jewish refugees and increased pressure on Britain to allow more Jewish immigration to Palestine. Simultaneously, the Arab majority in Palestine, along with neighbouring Arab states, vehemently opposed the establishment of a Jewish state. Given the complexities and the escalating tensions, Britain decided to bugger the whole thing off and referred the issue to the United Nations in 1947. Rest is history…centuries old. Isaac and Ishmael.
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 18:23:52 GMT
via mobile
Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 2, 2024 18:23:52 GMT
Was Hezbollah not created in response to attacks by Israel? So what does that make Israels aim? Especially given zionists believe parts of West Bank, Jordan, Gaza, Syria etc.. are their promised land. So how do you resolve a conflict where one power is bankrolled and armed to the 10th degree and the same power never faces any sanctions because if Uncle Sam says no at UN votes then it doesn't happen. Especially when said country believe they're entitled to these lands due to a religious book. Which land are the Lebanese or Palestine trying to take over from another state out of interest? Would Hezbollah exist if it wasn't for the 1982 invasion of Lebannon? So what created these said terrorists then? Everything points at one state. Maybe they'll invade Jordan next and the Jordanians will form a resistance army. And in 30 years time you can tell us all how Israel is defending itself from said resistance which was formed due to being invaded by Israel... Was Hezbollah created in response to attacks on Lebanon by Israel? Yes. It was created and funded by Iran. Which land are the Lebanese or Palestinians trying to take over from another state? Hezbollah and Hamas seek the holistic destruction of the state of Israel. Would Hezbollah exist if it wasn’t for the 1982 invasion of Lebanon? Not on its current guise, but Iran would have found a way of creating anti-Israeli tension given the modern day backdrop dates back to 1947. Who created these terrorists? The UK helped to create modern day Israel and perpetuated the Middle Eastern issue as we know it from the foundation for British involvement in Palestine as laid with the Balfour Declaration of 1917 (the British government's support for "the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people” and also stipulated that the rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine should not be prejudiced. The aftermath of World War II and the revelations of the Holocaust intensified global sympathy for Jewish refugees and increased pressure on Britain to allow more Jewish immigration to Palestine. Simultaneously, the Arab majority in Palestine, along with neighbouring Arab states, vehemently opposed the establishment of a Jewish state. Given the complexities and the escalating tensions, Britain decided to bugger the whole thing off and referred the issue to the United Nations in 1947. Rest is history…centuries old. Isaac and Ishmael. There's a huge amount missing from that summary, specifically the role of Zionism amongst other things. The British originally offered Theodore Herzl UGANDA as the location for the Zionist state at the turn of the last century, an offer which the Zionists accepted but when when British settlers who were already there, started kicking off at the prospect of 'foreigners' taking over THEIR land, the government had to withdraw their offer. East Africa could literally have become what Israel is now. You see at the time, we were still in the last throwes of Empire and Britain was still an extremely racist nation, that believed it ruled the world and could simply give away parts of the world (that didn't even belong to them) to other people. This (as you correctly point out) later manifested itself in the Balfour decleration. It was the Jews WHO INTRODUCED TERRORISM into the Middle East. As early as the 20's, Zionist terrorist paramilitaries began a campaign of terrorism in Palestine that continued right up until the formation of Israel. Indeed, Israel itself was forged out of terrorist activity. The Haganah, Irgun Zvai Leumi and the Stern Gang were all terrorist groups which all committed terrible terrorist atrocities, which ultimately gave us three of Israel's future Prime ministers, the IDF itself, rose out of the ashes of these terrorist groups. And let us not forget that Truman's Secretary of State and envoy to the Middle East at the time, George Marshall (who Truman described as the greatest living American), totally opposed the US recognising the State of Israel, as he claimed it would lead to decades of war in Palestine and threatened to draw other Muslim nations into conflict with the West. Their great friendship ended as a result and here we are 75 years later and it is abundantly clear which one was right. gawa
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Israel
Oct 2, 2024 22:26:05 GMT
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gawa likes this
Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 2, 2024 22:26:05 GMT
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