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Post by yeokel on Nov 30, 2022 10:07:13 GMT
Hardly surprising tbh. I was raised a Christian but learnt like many in adult life that a higher god power doesn’t exist. Over millennia, religion was a way of life and frankly, a way to control populations and explain “biblical” events that can easily be proved by science today. It to mention the endless conflicts that are religiously rooted. People can lead whatever life they want, but a world without religion would be a better place. If religion didn’t exist, would we invent it now? I think not.
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Post by yeokel on Nov 30, 2022 10:10:22 GMT
I'm extremely religious. A more religious person than me doesn't exist. I use to say: everyone is religious; some aren't just aware of it yet. If you don't believe in God, do you believe in yourself? The number one problem with atheists is they think religions cause problem. They are not and never will. The people who can't handle the religions are the problem. Go on then, I’ll bite….. “ A more religious person than me doesn't exist.” Would you like to justify or explain the above sentence?
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Post by superjw on Nov 30, 2022 10:21:53 GMT
Hardly surprising tbh. I was raised a Christian but learnt like many in adult life that a higher god power doesn’t exist. Over millennia, religion was a way of life and frankly, a way to control populations and explain “biblical” events that can easily be proved by science today. It to mention the endless conflicts that are religiously rooted. People can lead whatever life they want, but a world without religion would be a better place. If religion didn’t exist, would we invent it now? I think not. We absolutely wouldn’t invent it now. Times have changed and we live in an information based world. Most religions came from a time where a solar eclipse, huge flood or some fires could only be explained by some higher power. I suppose what is tricky is would all of the societal and technological developments of the world (Egyptians, Romans, Greeks et al) have happened to their extent without the presence of their religion?
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Post by maninasuitcase on Nov 30, 2022 10:34:03 GMT
A lot of 'Christians' these days have probably developed an 'atheist' stance in more recent times. A good proportion of people I know couldn't care less for religion. Born C of E, but otherwise, no real sense of feeling that way. Whereas, I'd always imagined Muslims, for example, to be more fervent followers of their own religion. In summary, a lot of Christians have fallen out of love with the idea of religion. That'll skew these numbers, somewhat. It’s much more taboo for Muslims to abandon faith. If you do some googling you’ll find forums full of poor young adults who were ostracised and outcast by their families for leaving Islam, even in western countries. Then there will be many who observe the faith whilst secretly having mentally “checked out”. And many families that are already similar to most “Christian” families in that they observe the religion more for cultural reasons rather than deep spiritual connection. I’ve always theorised that, in many ways, the path Islam is on in the west is similar to the path Christianity has gone over the last several generations. And potentially might go through an accelerated version. As Christianity has really waned in the last human lifetime (80 years or so) and society has become far less conservative. But we’ve potentially thrown the baby out with the bath water in many respects. Maybe the pendulum between liberalism/conservatism will swing back again (as it tends to) in wider society and there might be a meeting in the middle at some point. Hard to say I suppose but I’d say that’s likely. Obviously I haven’t touched on the radical Islamist faction of Islam here. I can’t speak for what will happen with those fuckers. But generally I’d say there’s likely a good proportion of the “Muslim” demographic who are Muslims in name only. The bit about muslims and islam is spot on. I was speaking to a couple of muslim lads at work the other day and the conversation switched to faiths as i witnessed an elderly colleague praying the staff room and didn't know what he was doing, they said they dont pray or practice but pretend to when their parents or elder relatives are around. Like all religions people only jump on the bandwagon when it suits or someone gets offended by something as its the easiest thing to beat you with.
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Nov 30, 2022 12:19:25 GMT
Religion causes 99 percent of the problems in the world and always has. Load of fairy tales that causes nothing but sadness. Fuck it off. Yes those leaders of religion Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. Oh hang on they were all political or racist ideologues. Are you telling me that religion doesn't cause alot of the world's problems?
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Post by yeokel on Nov 30, 2022 12:28:56 GMT
Yes those leaders of religion Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. Oh hang on they were all political or racist ideologues. Are you telling me that religion doesn't cause alot of the world's problems? I think he might have been questioning whether it "causes 99% of the world's problems". But I might be wrong.
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Nov 30, 2022 12:30:46 GMT
Are you telling me that religion doesn't cause alot of the world's problems? I think he might have been questioning whether it "causes 99% of the world's problems". But I might be wrong. I might have exaggerated a bit on the 99 percent bit I agree. I'll drop it down to 90 percent.
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Post by lordb on Nov 30, 2022 12:52:58 GMT
I think he might have been questioning whether it "causes 99% of the world's problems". But I might be wrong. I might have exaggerated a bit on the 99 percent bit I agree. I'll drop it down to 90 percent. The pursuit of power causes 99% of problems imho Huge overlap with religion and money of course
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Nov 30, 2022 12:59:51 GMT
I might have exaggerated a bit on the 99 percent bit I agree. I'll drop it down to 90 percent. The pursuit of power causes 99% of problems imho Huge overlap with religion and money of course Toatally agree with the pursuit of power ofcourse and money factors into that. My point was to do with alot of mindless killing done in regards to one god or another that has taken place over thousands of years and is still taking place in the name of religion. Unfortunately it is a huge part of people's lives and is here to stay.
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Post by lordb on Nov 30, 2022 13:02:37 GMT
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Post by OldStokie on Nov 30, 2022 13:35:48 GMT
I follow no religion but I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic... open minded. Religion isn't all crap. Many of the most beautiful buildings in the world were built by those who followed a religion, but I just wish they would walk in there, say their piece, and then leave everybody else to get on with their own lives. Religion is only bad when it becomes a cult and those who follow it will do anything to harm others. I suppose I'm a bit spiritual. Some religious music can move me to tears, so maybe real religion is the inexplicable soul inside all of us that reacts to love and beautiful sounds and sights.
OS.
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Post by phileetin on Nov 30, 2022 14:38:15 GMT
Just think about the following: "Crazy - but thats how it goes, millions of people living as foes Maybe its not too late, To learn how to love and forget how to hate" Ozzy Osbourne said that he also said
sabbath bloody sabbath nothing more to do
living just for dying
dying just for you
(is you God ? )
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Post by Veritas on Nov 30, 2022 15:19:54 GMT
Yes those leaders of religion Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. Oh hang on they were all political or racist ideologues. Are you telling me that religion doesn't cause alot of the world's problems? You stated religion caused 99% which it clearly doesn't. A fundamentist belief in anything, religion, political ideology, racial identity or nationalism is a recipe for trouble. Over the last 100 years or so religion has, while certainly at the root of some conflicts, has probably been the least cause.
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Nov 30, 2022 15:42:09 GMT
Are you telling me that religion doesn't cause alot of the world's problems? You stated religion caused 99% which it clearly doesn't. A fundamentist belief in anything, religion, political ideology, racial identity or nationalism is a recipe for trouble. Over the last 100 years or so religion has, while certainly at the root of some conflicts, has probably been the least cause. I believe it causes more shit than its worth.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2022 16:02:55 GMT
I follow no religion but I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic... open minded. Religion isn't all crap. Many of the most beautiful buildings in the world were built by those who followed a religion, but I just wish they would walk in there, say their piece, and then leave everybody else to get on with their own lives. Religion is only bad when it becomes a cult and those who follow it will do anything to harm others. I suppose I'm a bit spiritual. Some religious music can move me to tears, so maybe real religion is the inexplicable soul inside all of us that reacts to love and beautiful sounds and sights. OS. I used to be an athiest but I don't think I am these days. Agnostic/spiritual as you say. It's a strange transition actually and must be far rarer than the opposite. There's a film from 2011 called The Tree of Life. It's an artsy film and, the first time I watched it, I spent most of it wondering when the fuck it was going to start...but it became embedded into my consciousness so I watched it again at a later date. There's a 15 or so minute scene (that sadly I can't find on youtube anymore) that attempts to show the origin of the universe/life up to the present day. Galaxy/star formation / the transition from prokaryote to eukaryote / the evolution of life / the first act of compassion / the apocalypse of the dinosaurs that paved the way for the rise of mammals / etc etc. The start of this scene is showing the creation of the early universe to the soundtrack of Lacrimosa. As barmy as it might sound, on the second viewing, I was deeply moved to a point that could only be described as feeling like a "religious experience". I've seen the Derren Brown episode where he induces this same feeling in an atheist, so I'm obviously sceptical of my own intuition. But the idea that there isn't more depth to existence than what we can perceive, has stopped making sense to me. At the core of most (if not all?) religions is an attempt to connect with this sense of spirituality. But humans are fucked up animals and that primary aim can get lost in a fog of evil & corruption.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 30, 2022 16:11:18 GMT
I follow no religion but I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic... open minded. Religion isn't all crap. Many of the most beautiful buildings in the world were built by those who followed a religion, but I just wish they would walk in there, say their piece, and then leave everybody else to get on with their own lives. Religion is only bad when it becomes a cult and those who follow it will do anything to harm others. I suppose I'm a bit spiritual. Some religious music can move me to tears, so maybe real religion is the inexplicable soul inside all of us that reacts to love and beautiful sounds and sights. OS. I used to be an athiest but I don't think I am these days. Agnostic/spiritual as you say. It's a strange transition actually and must be far rarer than the opposite. There's a film from 2011 called The Tree of Life. It's an artsy film and, the first time I watched it, I spent most of it wondering when the fuck it was going to start...but it became embedded into my consciousness so I watched it again at a later date. There's a 15 or so minute scene (that sadly I can't find on youtube anymore) that attempts to show the origin of the universe/life up to the present day. Galaxy/star formation / the transition from prokaryote to eukaryote / the evolution of life / the first act of compassion / the apocalypse of the dinosaurs that paved the way for the rise of mammals / etc etc. The start of this scene is showing the creation of the early universe to the soundtrack of Lacrimosa. As barmy as it might sound, on the second viewing, I was deeply moved to a point that could only be described as feeling like a "religious experience". I've seen the Derren Brown episode where he induces this same feeling in an atheist, so I'm obviously sceptical of my own intuition. But the idea that there isn't more depth to existence than what we can perceive, has stopped making sense to me. At the core of most (if not all?) religions is an attempt to connect with this sense of spirituality. But humans are fucked up animals and that primary aim can get lost in a fog of evil & corruption. Agnosticism seems, to me at least, to be the sensible position to take. No-one can ever know one way or the other whether there is or isn't anything beyond the world around us, in which case, to be entirely open-minded about it seems the best decision. Of course, that doesn't mean you have to be similarly non-critical about all that is done in the name of religion, good and bad.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Nov 30, 2022 16:12:14 GMT
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Post by Veritas on Nov 30, 2022 16:45:08 GMT
You stated religion caused 99% which it clearly doesn't. A fundamentist belief in anything, religion, political ideology, racial identity or nationalism is a recipe for trouble. Over the last 100 years or so religion has, while certainly at the root of some conflicts, has probably been the least cause. I believe it causes more shit than its worth. Valid point to make but that is not what you said, you said it caused 99% of trouble which is incorrect.
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Post by dexter97 on Dec 1, 2022 8:40:36 GMT
I used to be an athiest but I don't think I am these days. Agnostic/spiritual as you say. It's a strange transition actually and must be far rarer than the opposite. There's a film from 2011 called The Tree of Life. It's an artsy film and, the first time I watched it, I spent most of it wondering when the fuck it was going to start...but it became embedded into my consciousness so I watched it again at a later date. There's a 15 or so minute scene (that sadly I can't find on youtube anymore) that attempts to show the origin of the universe/life up to the present day. Galaxy/star formation / the transition from prokaryote to eukaryote / the evolution of life / the first act of compassion / the apocalypse of the dinosaurs that paved the way for the rise of mammals / etc etc. The start of this scene is showing the creation of the early universe to the soundtrack of Lacrimosa. As barmy as it might sound, on the second viewing, I was deeply moved to a point that could only be described as feeling like a "religious experience". I've seen the Derren Brown episode where he induces this same feeling in an atheist, so I'm obviously sceptical of my own intuition. But the idea that there isn't more depth to existence than what we can perceive, has stopped making sense to me. At the core of most (if not all?) religions is an attempt to connect with this sense of spirituality. But humans are fucked up animals and that primary aim can get lost in a fog of evil & corruption. Agnosticism seems, to me at least, to be the sensible position to take. No-one can ever know one way or the other whether there is or isn't anything beyond the world around us, in which case, to be entirely open-minded about it seems the best decision. Of course, that doesn't mean you have to be similarly non-critical about all that is done in the name of religion, good and bad. I considered myself agnostic for a long time, on the basis that it’s not possible for the feeble human brain to begin to comprehend the wonders of the universe and what may lie beyond this material existence. I’ve now settled on atheism because whatever spiritual dimension there might be (and I could be persuaded by some of the nontheistic Eastern religions’ ideas), I’m quite sure that this isn’t down to any deity, at least not in the sense that the Abrahamic faiths define God – A being, in whose image we were created, who made and has dominion over all of Creation. It’s semantics, but by definition, that makes me an atheist. That said, I’m not quite as anti-religious as many atheists, and I don’t buy into the idea that most of the problems in the world arise from the fact that people choose to believe in gods. There are conflicts that are blamed on religion (The Troubles, for example), but nobody bombed anyone because they differed over how to conduct the Eucharist. Genuinely religious folk (as opposed to those fundamentalists who use interpretations of the Bible or Qur’an to stoke hatred) are good people who respect the beliefs of others. Some religious leaders, on the other hand… The Pope Song
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wapiti
Youth Player
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Posts: 402
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Post by wapiti on Dec 1, 2022 16:51:17 GMT
Vietnam was directly caused by religion, colonialism and Yank neo-colonialism. Vietnam was one country, mostly Buddhist but with a large Catholic population due to French colonialism. The country was divided into two parts in 1954 with the Catholics in the north mostly moving south. The country was supposed to have elections in 1956, to choose a leader (Ho Chi Minh would have won) and to re-unify the country. South Vietnam did not allow that election to take place......the US wasted any good will that it retained, it entangled it's confused concepts of religion and communism and a few million died as a consequence. My apologies if I got that wrong. I thought the war in Vietnam was about political ideology, communism v capitalism. Probably several confused reasons, but religion (protecting Catholics) was among them. That's what was behind the country (the ONE country) being split up in 1954 with re-unification supposed to happen in 1956.
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 1, 2022 16:59:43 GMT
Politics has been done to death now. Let's see whether religion is less divisive... Less than half of population Christian for first timeAccording to the 2021 census, less than half of England & Wales now identifies as Christian – 46%, compared to 59% ten years earlier. The fall mirrors a rise in the number of people who claim to have no religion, from 25% to 37%. It’s not news that society is becoming increasingly secular, but this is quite a change in a relatively short period of time. Nobody can say for sure how much further this will move over the next ten years, but it’s only going in one direction and will likely drop below a third before too long. At what point do we stop considering the UK a Christian country, and what do you think will be the implications of that? For the institutions that are bound-up in religious faith? For societal values when the singular truth that shaped them has become irrelevant? I’m one of the 37% and don’t feel that I’m in need of spiritual guidance to know how to be a ‘good person’, but I guess that’s how most atheists regard themselves, and there's as much disparity in what the non-religious believe as there is between all the world's faiths. What moral code are we going to live by, and without the promise of everlasting life or the jeopardy of eternal damnation, is anyone going to give a toss anyway? I’m shocked that 46% identify as Christian. I suppose that there is a big difference between identification and practice.
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Post by cvillestokie on Dec 1, 2022 17:06:12 GMT
Also, social media has stopped the idea of non-divisive topics. Disagreements escalate so ridiculously under the anonymity of social media. Debates become heated arguments in ways that they often wouldn’t in a face to face meeting.
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Post by dexter97 on Dec 1, 2022 17:13:00 GMT
Politics has been done to death now. Let's see whether religion is less divisive... Less than half of population Christian for first timeAccording to the 2021 census, less than half of England & Wales now identifies as Christian – 46%, compared to 59% ten years earlier. The fall mirrors a rise in the number of people who claim to have no religion, from 25% to 37%. It’s not news that society is becoming increasingly secular, but this is quite a change in a relatively short period of time. Nobody can say for sure how much further this will move over the next ten years, but it’s only going in one direction and will likely drop below a third before too long. At what point do we stop considering the UK a Christian country, and what do you think will be the implications of that? For the institutions that are bound-up in religious faith? For societal values when the singular truth that shaped them has become irrelevant? I’m one of the 37% and don’t feel that I’m in need of spiritual guidance to know how to be a ‘good person’, but I guess that’s how most atheists regard themselves, and there's as much disparity in what the non-religious believe as there is between all the world's faiths. What moral code are we going to live by, and without the promise of everlasting life or the jeopardy of eternal damnation, is anyone going to give a toss anyway? I’m shocked that 46% identify as Christian. I suppose that there is a big difference between identification and practice. Indeed. I'd be surprised if it was more than a tenth of that number that attends church (other than for weddings and funerals). I'd be equally surprised if many of the remainder have much of an idea about what the label they give themselves actually means.
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Post by superjw on Dec 1, 2022 17:48:03 GMT
Also, social media has stopped the idea of non-divisive topics. Disagreements escalate so ridiculously under the anonymity of social media. Debates become heated arguments in ways that they often wouldn’t in a face to face meeting. Critical thinking is effectively outlawed on social media.
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Post by yeokel on Dec 1, 2022 18:16:29 GMT
Also, social media has stopped the idea of non-divisive topics. Disagreements escalate so ridiculously under the anonymity of social media. Debates become heated arguments in ways that they often wouldn’t in a face to face meeting. Critical thinking is effectively outlawed on social media. And in religion too.
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Post by musik on Dec 1, 2022 21:29:31 GMT
I'm extremely religious. A more religious person than me doesn't exist. I use to say: everyone is religious; some aren't just aware of it yet. If you don't believe in God, do you believe in yourself? The number one problem with atheists is they think religions cause problem. They are not and never will. The people who can't handle the religions are the problem. Go on then, I’ll bite….. “ A more religious person than me doesn't exist.” Would you like to justify or explain the above sentence? I once died in this life and went to Heaven. I got the answers to many question there. I had lived more than 1 million lives so there was no more existence for me to learn about. I could stay and be close united to the Creator. Most creatures of course haven't lived that long and havn't a choice. But I did choose to return; once more. But if You wonder something about life and existence, why we're here or something, I might help. Please take it seriously.
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Post by yeokel on Dec 1, 2022 21:36:46 GMT
Go on then, I’ll bite….. “ A more religious person than me doesn't exist.” Would you like to justify or explain the above sentence? I once died in this life and went to Heaven. I got the answers to many question there. I had lived more than 1 million lives so there was no more existence for me to learn about. I could stay and be close united to the Creator. Most creatures of course haven't lived that long and havn't a choice. But I did choose to return; once more. But if You wonder something about life and existence, why we're here or something, I might help. Please take it seriously. Do you think that is a unique experience, or do you think that others may have had that experience?
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Post by dexter97 on Dec 2, 2022 13:04:14 GMT
Go on then, I’ll bite….. “ A more religious person than me doesn't exist.” Would you like to justify or explain the above sentence? I once died in this life and went to Heaven. I got the answers to many question there. I had lived more than 1 million lives so there was no more existence for me to learn about. I could stay and be close united to the Creator. Most creatures of course haven't lived that long and havn't a choice. But I did choose to return; once more. But if You wonder something about life and existence, why we're here or something, I might help. Please take it seriously. This is an intriguing post, Musik. It's obviously based upon a very personal experience and I wouldn't expect you to elucidate on a public forum. You refer to reincarnation (or at least some form of that), which is usually more of a feature of Eastern religion than the Abrahamic faiths. Is there a recognised religion that your belief is aligned with?
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Post by metalhead on Dec 2, 2022 20:49:57 GMT
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Post by yeokel on Dec 2, 2022 21:49:40 GMT
Well, that article depicts a bunch of simpletons to me who seem to have spent half a life trying to figure out things that many, possibly most, of us had figured out by the age of 10. But, of course, it carries a typical Guardian overtone as well.
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