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Post by cobhamstokey on Nov 12, 2022 17:27:05 GMT
Small world I got a fair few messages too saying how patient I’d been too and why there was no point trying to reason. Anyway as you say there’s no point in carrying on the argument as neither of us will be changing our opinion any time soon. You keep smoking I won’t jobs a good un. Hold on, I've just answered all your questions for about the 3rd time and I've asked just one of you, how about an answer? “We've been through all this before and as much as I enjoyed getting messages congratulating me on my patience first time around it's wearing much thinner this time around” No you’re ok I wouldn’t want to test your patience any more
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Post by elystokie on Nov 12, 2022 17:29:54 GMT
Hold on, I've just answered all your questions for about the 3rd time and I've asked just one of you, how about an answer? “We've been through all this before and as much as I enjoyed getting messages congratulating me on my patience first time around it's wearing much thinner this time around” No you’re ok I wouldn’t want to test your patience any more I don't blame you. Until next time then, when it'll be the first question I ask you
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Post by Mason_Stokie on Nov 12, 2022 23:08:55 GMT
We get sports gambling in Ohio come January 1st! Pretty sure bet365 are already live in Ohio. Not for sports betting. Just downloaded the app. I can get $100 in free bets when it does go live
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Post by metalhead on Nov 12, 2022 23:13:23 GMT
Pretty sure bet365 are already live in Ohio. Not for sports betting. Just downloaded the app. I can get $100 in free bets when it does go live If no sports betting, what can you bet on?
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Post by Mystic Stokie on Nov 12, 2022 23:50:37 GMT
Legal here in RI now too. I think you can start buying it in stores in the new year. I have to go 20 mins over into MA for my shit at the minute. Expensive because of tax, but it's all good whatever you buy. I bought these Gerry Garcia gummies. It does what it says on the can, is a given with weed, you get stoned, but the great thing about the Garcia gummies you get Garciaed, if you are a musician search this shit out. I went back and brought extra of it because the menu over here is forever changing.
Make Weed Great Again.
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Post by Mason_Stokie on Nov 13, 2022 0:14:25 GMT
Not for sports betting. Just downloaded the app. I can get $100 in free bets when it does go live If no sports betting, what can you bet on? Horses I believe
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Post by marylandstoke on Nov 13, 2022 1:38:09 GMT
Pretty sure bet365 are already live in Ohio. Not for sports betting. Just downloaded the app. I can get $100 in free bets when it does go live Read a piece on the betting companies here after legalisation. If you took every ‘sports’ book promotion you could get a thousand dollars in ‘free’ bets. I feel like Bollo.
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Post by metalhead on Nov 13, 2022 10:00:21 GMT
It's a much more intricate debate than that. I used to smoke the stuff religiously for a number of years and saw first hand the (short term and long term) issues that regular use of cannabis can cause. It can in many instances act as a gateway to wider substance abuse - I saw more friends who were stoners go down the wrong path than those who abuse coke. No idea why that is but I guess it's something to do with the highs and emotions you get from weed over the buz you get from coke - The latter of which should absolutely remain illegal for a whole range of reasons. It's worth noting as well that there is always a huge difference in risk (as with other drugs like coke) between those who do it socially to those who do it frequently. By legalising it you essentially increase that risk. I'm not really sure where I stand on legalising weed (ironic because I used to be such a huge supporter of legalising it). But either way it's not as black and white as you make out and never underestimate the damage that frequent use of cannabis can cause - Both in itself or indirectly as a result of future substance abuse that it can lead to. In relation to legalising cannabis I think the best people to speak to would be users who started using as teenagers and are now in the 40s-50s not teenagers / young people who’ve just started using. We had a long debate on this in the London thread. As someone against legalisation I’d like to know if drugs are legalised. - What drugs would remain illegal. - What age could you illegally buy them. - If they’re only sold legally what would stop teens going on to the black market? - How could you gauge if someone’s taking to much and will have a long term issue. - Would you limit how much someone uses. - If you have an addict what happens if they can’t afford any more. Seeing as elystokie has lost patience, I'll bite. What drugs would remain illegal? I would legalise Cannabis tomorrow. All of the science supports legalising it. End of. The end. There is nothing more to the debate. I would also look to legalise ecstasy. Why? Again, because I follow the science. You can pull these statistics from anywhere, but the headline is: (Proportionally) "Significantly more people die from alcohol and tobacco consumption use than ecstasy". In other words, take an equal sized sample set of pissheads, smokers and pillheads.... your best chance of survival, by a distance, is to be hanging around with all the ravers listening to the Happy Monday's. Years ago, the government published a league table of drugs and their capacity for harm which is still available if you dig on Google. Welcome to the science people Naturally, such a sensible approach to drugs has long been abandoned. In these modern days of fluffiness and feels, rather than actual science, it's much easier that everything as arbitrarily labelled bad and we dumb the argument right down: "Weeds bad because it causes aggressive viewing of Pineapple Express". The science, as nicely laid out for you above, backs legalisation for a significant number of current drugs. As it is, I would take each drug on a case by case basis. LSD, should stay illegal, in my opinion. On top, all drug usage should be decriminalised regardless of the drug. Why we continue to prosecute 25 year old smack addicts is beyond me... Prosecute the suppliers. The fact usage is criminal, is something that will be judged poorly in years to come. We are effectively compounding peoples misery. What age could you illegally buy them. 18. If they’re only sold legally what would stop teens going on to the black market? Ask my 13 year old self. I used to drink with my mates fairly regularly. How could you gauge if someone’s taking to much and will have a long term issue. Ask any number of my family who have struggled with alcohol. Would you limit how much someone uses. I would implement the same rules that are in-place for alcohol and tobacco consumption. If you have an addict what happens if they can’t afford any more. Then they don't any? None of the questions you've posed above, really hold any relevance to the debate do they? You can ask all the same questions about an alcoholic. All of the science backs legalising a number of currently prohibited drugs. Simple. Follow the science and you'll get the answers you need. Now..... if you want to follow the science faithfully and to it's logical conclusion: Then we should actually legalise cannabis and pills and start to phase out tobacco and alcohol If tobacco and alcohol were made illegal today, our future generations would be significantly healthier But y'know, another time eh?
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Post by elystokie on Nov 13, 2022 10:30:17 GMT
In relation to legalising cannabis I think the best people to speak to would be users who started using as teenagers and are now in the 40s-50s not teenagers / young people who’ve just started using. We had a long debate on this in the London thread. As someone against legalisation I’d like to know if drugs are legalised. - What drugs would remain illegal. - What age could you illegally buy them. - If they’re only sold legally what would stop teens going on to the black market? - How could you gauge if someone’s taking to much and will have a long term issue. - Would you limit how much someone uses. - If you have an addict what happens if they can’t afford any more. Seeing as elystokie has lost patience, I'll bite. What drugs would remain illegal? I would legalise Cannabis tomorrow. All of the science supports legalising it. End of. The end. There is nothing more to the debate. I would also look to legalise ecstasy. Why? Again, because I follow the science. You can pull these statistics from anywhere, but the headline is: (Proportionally) "Significantly more people die from alcohol and tobacco consumption use than ecstasy". In other words, take an equal sized sample set of pissheads, smokers and pillheads.... your best chance of survival, by a distance, is to be hanging around with all the ravers listening to the Happy Monday's. Years ago, the government published a league table of drugs and their capacity for harm which is still available if you dig on Google. Welcome to the science people Naturally, such a sensible approach to drugs has long been abandoned. In these modern days of fluffiness and feels, rather than actual science, it's much easier that everything as arbitrarily labelled bad and we dumb the argument right down: "Weeds bad because it causes aggressive viewing of Pineapple Express". The science, as nicely laid out for you above, backs legalisation for a significant number of current drugs. As it is, I would take each drug on a case by case basis. LSD, should stay illegal, in my opinion. On top, all drug usage should be decriminalised regardless of the drug. Why we continue to prosecute 25 year old smack addicts is beyond me... Prosecute the suppliers. The fact usage is criminal, is something that will be judged poorly in years to come. We are effectively compounding peoples misery. What age could you illegally buy them. 18. If they’re only sold legally what would stop teens going on to the black market? Ask my 13 year old self. I used to drink with my mates fairly regularly. How could you gauge if someone’s taking to much and will have a long term issue. Ask any number of my family who have struggled with alcohol. Would you limit how much someone uses. I would implement the same rules that are in-place for alcohol and tobacco consumption. If you have an addict what happens if they can’t afford any more. Then they don't any? None of the questions you've posed above, really hold any relevance to the debate do they? You can ask all the same questions about an alcoholic. All of the science backs legalising a number of currently prohibited drugs. Simple. Follow the science and you'll get the answers you need. Now..... if you want to follow the science faithfully and to it's logical conclusion: Then we should actually legalise cannabis and pills and start to phase out tobacco and alcohol If tobacco and alcohol were made illegal today, our future generations would be significantly healthier But y'know, another time eh? "The fact usage is criminal, is something that will be judged poorly in years to come. We are effectively compounding peoples misery." Well said, I'm convinced that future generations will view our current attitude towards 'drugs' the same way most people nowadays view the persecution of 'witches' in the middle ages.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Nov 13, 2022 10:53:10 GMT
"Bite"? You talk like I'm on some sort of wind up. It's just an alternative view that I have.
Re legalising it tomorrow. I don't have an issue with it if it if it's used for medical purposes and used in the right quantity prescribed. What about those that use it recreationaly and become addicted to it because they have an addictive personality. Wont that just make it easier to use if it's more freely available.
Ecstasy legalised? Alcohol keeps coming up as a comparison. I'm sure more people do die through alcohol but I'd suggest that's because it's far more widely used. I'm sure that if the same amount of people used ecstasy as drank alcohol you'd see a very different story. Mental health? Being of a certain age I've seen the impact that taking ecstasy's had on some of my mates from the 90's who used to take it every weekend. Mental health, depression, anger issues and paranoia. I'm sure the figures on the bar chart arent telling a long term picture.
"On top, all drug usage should be dicriminalised regardless of the drug. Why we continue to prosecute 25 year old smack addicts is beyond me... Prosecute the suppliers. The fact usage is criminal, is something that will be judged poorly in years to come. We are effectively compounding peoples misery." Fair play I don't disagree with that however addiction to drugs can cause addicts to commit non drug related crimes to pay for there habit like burglary and theft. I think you'll find there's not many people in prison for possession of cannabis or even coke. It's a very long process before that would happen and would involve far more other factors related to the persons behaviour.
Age. Short term I'd say the risk to a minor is far greater to a child than alcohol and the immediate affects far more hidden. Edibles being a classic example where a number of children ended up in hospital having taken the mentioned "sweets" and ended up with irregular heartbeats.
Limits - So there are none ? Is that not potentially opening up a can of worms depending on the cost. People will just want more and more and will commit crime to pay for it if they don't have the means and not everyone does. If they cant afford to pay for drugs will they try and create their own eg monkeydust.
As you know I don't drink so it wouldn't bother me if alcohol was banned tomorrow and yes it does cause a huge number of issues. I'm sure we can agree on that. But it's here and it's a hell of a lot easier to keep something illegal than make something illegal.
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Post by metalhead on Nov 13, 2022 10:53:36 GMT
Seeing as elystokie has lost patience, I'll bite. What drugs would remain illegal? I would legalise Cannabis tomorrow. All of the science supports legalising it. End of. The end. There is nothing more to the debate. I would also look to legalise ecstasy. Why? Again, because I follow the science. You can pull these statistics from anywhere, but the headline is: (Proportionally) "Significantly more people die from alcohol and tobacco consumption use than ecstasy". In other words, take an equal sized sample set of pissheads, smokers and pillheads.... your best chance of survival, by a distance, is to be hanging around with all the ravers listening to the Happy Monday's. Years ago, the government published a league table of drugs and their capacity for harm which is still available if you dig on Google. Welcome to the science people Naturally, such a sensible approach to drugs has long been abandoned. In these modern days of fluffiness and feels, rather than actual science, it's much easier that everything as arbitrarily labelled bad and we dumb the argument right down: "Weeds bad because it causes aggressive viewing of Pineapple Express". The science, as nicely laid out for you above, backs legalisation for a significant number of current drugs. As it is, I would take each drug on a case by case basis. LSD, should stay illegal, in my opinion. On top, all drug usage should be decriminalised regardless of the drug. Why we continue to prosecute 25 year old smack addicts is beyond me... Prosecute the suppliers. The fact usage is criminal, is something that will be judged poorly in years to come. We are effectively compounding peoples misery. What age could you illegally buy them. 18. If they’re only sold legally what would stop teens going on to the black market? Ask my 13 year old self. I used to drink with my mates fairly regularly. How could you gauge if someone’s taking to much and will have a long term issue. Ask any number of my family who have struggled with alcohol. Would you limit how much someone uses. I would implement the same rules that are in-place for alcohol and tobacco consumption. If you have an addict what happens if they can’t afford any more. Then they don't any? None of the questions you've posed above, really hold any relevance to the debate do they? You can ask all the same questions about an alcoholic. All of the science backs legalising a number of currently prohibited drugs. Simple. Follow the science and you'll get the answers you need. Now..... if you want to follow the science faithfully and to it's logical conclusion: Then we should actually legalise cannabis and pills and start to phase out tobacco and alcohol If tobacco and alcohol were made illegal today, our future generations would be significantly healthier But y'know, another time eh? "The fact usage is criminal, is something that will be judged poorly in years to come. We are effectively compounding peoples misery." Well said, I'm convinced that future generations will view our current attitude towards 'drugs' the same way most people nowadays view the persecution of 'witches' in the middle ages. We will be laughed at, much like we laugh at those who persecuted witches. "Did you know in the early 2000's, they used to put people who smoked heroin in jail", "ho ho ho, and I suppose they used to put gays in jail too"... "Erm, well, the thing is..." It's a fucking travesty to be honest. I am all for prosecuting those who's supply, but we have failed multiple generations of people with an utterly ludicrous drugs policy.
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Post by elystokie on Nov 13, 2022 11:02:29 GMT
"Bite"? You talk like I'm on some sort of wind up. It's just an alternative view that I have. Re legalising it tomorrow. I don't have an issue with it if it if it's used for medical purposes and used in the right quantity prescribed. What about those that use it recreationaly and become addicted to it because they have an addictive personality. Wont that just make it easier to use if it's more freely available. Ecstasy legalised? Alcohol keeps coming up as a comparison. I'm sure more people do die through alcohol but I'd suggest that's because it's far more widely used. I'm sure that if the same amount of people used ecstasy as drank alcohol you'd see a very different story. Mental health? Being of a certain age I've seen the impact that taking ecstasy's had on some of my mates from the 90's who used to take it every weekend. Mental health, depression, anger issues and paranoia. I'm sure the figures on the bar chart arent telling a long term picture. "On top, all drug usage should be dicriminalised regardless of the drug. Why we continue to prosecute 25 year old smack addicts is beyond me... Prosecute the suppliers. The fact usage is criminal, is something that will be judged poorly in years to come. We are effectively compounding peoples misery." Fair play I don't disagree with that however addiction to drugs can cause addicts to commit non drug related crimes to pay for there habit like burglary and theft. I think you'll find there's not many people in prison for possession of cannabis or even coke. It's a very long process before that would happen and would involve far more other factors related to the persons behaviour. Age. Short term I'd say the risk to a minor is far greater to a child than alcohol and the immediate affects far more hidden. Edibles being a classic example where a number of children ended up in hospital having taken the mentioned "sweets" and ended up with irregular heartbeats. Limits - So there are none ? Is that not potentially opening up a can of worms depending on the cost. People will just want more and more and will commit crime to pay for it if they don't have the means and not everyone does. If they cant afford to pay for drugs will they try and create their own eg monkeydust. As you know I don't drink so it wouldn't bother me if alcohol was banned tomorrow and yes it does cause a huge number of issues. I'm sure we can agree on that. But it's here and it's a hell of a lot easier to keep something illegal than make something illegal. "Re legalising it tomorrow. I don't have an issue with it if it if it's used for medical purposes" That's already in place, has been since 2018. www.drugscience.org.uk/Twenty21/
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Post by metalhead on Nov 13, 2022 11:19:44 GMT
"Bite"? You talk like I'm on some sort of wind up. It's just an alternative view that I have. Re legalising it tomorrow. I don't have an issue with it if it if it's used for medical purposes and used in the right quantity prescribed. What about those that use it recreationaly and become addicted to it because they have an addictive personality. Wont that just make it easier to use if it's more freely available. Ecstasy legalised? Alcohol keeps coming up as a comparison. I'm sure more people do die through alcohol but I'd suggest that's because it's far more widely used. I'm sure that if the same amount of people used ecstasy as drank alcohol you'd see a very different story. Mental health? Being of a certain age I've seen the impact that taking ecstasy's had on some of my mates from the 90's who used to take it every weekend. Mental health, depression, anger issues and paranoia. I'm sure the figures on the bar chart arent telling a long term picture. "On top, all drug usage should be dicriminalised regardless of the drug. Why we continue to prosecute 25 year old smack addicts is beyond me... Prosecute the suppliers. The fact usage is criminal, is something that will be judged poorly in years to come. We are effectively compounding peoples misery." Fair play I don't disagree with that however addiction to drugs can cause addicts to commit non drug related crimes to pay for there habit like burglary and theft. I think you'll find there's not many people in prison for possession of cannabis or even coke. It's a very long process before that would happen and would involve far more other factors related to the persons behaviour. Age. Short term I'd say the risk to a minor is far greater to a child than alcohol and the immediate affects far more hidden. Edibles being a classic example where a number of children ended up in hospital having taken the mentioned "sweets" and ended up with irregular heartbeats. Limits - So there are none ? Is that not potentially opening up a can of worms depending on the cost. People will just want more and more and will commit crime to pay for it if they don't have the means and not everyone does. If they cant afford to pay for drugs will they try and create their own eg monkeydust. As you know I don't drink so it wouldn't bother me if alcohol was banned tomorrow and yes it does cause a huge number of issues. I'm sure we can agree on that. But it's here and it's a hell of a lot easier to keep something illegal than make something illegal. You can't truly believe all of it though? I know you are naturally quite right leaning, and in these days of identity politics, it's imperative you batten down the hatches and stick with your side when anything comes along to threaten the status quo.... but SURELY, you don't believe all of the stuff you're saying in this thread? The facts betray your arguments and in fairness you can use whataboutery to stifle any debate. "Sorry Mr Ford, it's a terrible idea. What if one of the wheels came off and ran into a passing baby. What we really need are faster horses". We don't limit peoples alcohol consumption. We absolutely should. We don't. I don't understand why you're worried about recreational users becoming addicted. The two most addictive drugs are alcohol and tobacco.... and they're both legal. Pills aren't addictive at all and that's pretty much a known and proven fact. People like to take more pills to keep the initial high going, but once you've come down, there's nothing that chemically makes you want/need more. i.e. like cigarettes and nicotine. Weed is somewhat addictive, but nothing compared to tobacco. As I said in my previous statement, if you use the evidence at our disposal and adjust it to reflect as a proportion of overall usage (simple maths), then alcohol is still worlds away from pills. There are limited long-term effects from using pills. The biggest cause of complications with pill usage are usually the result of sketchy ingredients like rat poison etc. Take those dodgy sellers out of the equation and the complications would significantly reduce. We still hand out criminal records and cautions etc for personal usage. It's batty. It makes no sense whatsoever. End that right away. Edibles are like any other drug: If you take too much, in a short space of time, you can cause yourself problems. That is also true for alcohol and cigarettes. One of the things with smoking weed, is if you smoke too much too quickly, you whitey. You can easily sink back 3 or 4 strong edibles and your body wouldn't know until it is too late. The solution isn't to just ban them altogether though. There are the same limits as we have for alcohol. There we go. It's my two penneth anyway. If I thought that people would buy into the benefits, I would push to ban alcohol tomorrow. The long-term damage of alcohol is hard to comprehend for someone who hasn't been through it or seen it. Tobacco would be very much on the radar. However, Cannabis would probably be legalised. It would be interesting to see how the dynamics of society changed, if it went ahead.
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Post by marylandstoke on Nov 13, 2022 12:50:14 GMT
Interesting to see shrooms as the least dangerous in the diagram.
Now available in DC and many psychologist/psychiatrists are heralding this as the first step forward in treating many diseases such as ptsd.
Some claiming this could be biggest breakthrough in psychiatric medicine in a hundred years.
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Post by metalhead on Nov 13, 2022 13:04:26 GMT
Interesting to see shrooms as the least dangerous in the diagram. Now available in DC and many psychologist/psychiatrists are heralding this as the first step forward in treating many diseases such as ptsd. Some claiming this could be biggest breakthrough in psychiatric medicine in a hundred years. Legal in a number of countries now. Holland as well. No idea of the benefits. I suspect they have little after effects hence being safe.
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Post by elystokie on Nov 13, 2022 14:57:19 GMT
Interesting to see shrooms as the least dangerous in the diagram. Now available in DC and many psychologist/psychiatrists are heralding this as the first step forward in treating many diseases such as ptsd. Some claiming this could be biggest breakthrough in psychiatric medicine in a hundred years. I'm surprised caffeine doesn't feature anywhere on there. There's someone in the States suing the DEA for denying them the right to psilocybins as an 'end of life' treatment, helps with acceptance apparently.
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Post by musik on Nov 13, 2022 17:50:59 GMT
As you all know by now from the Swedish Election thread, Sweden has a new government since September.
When it comes to marijuana and other drugs, Sweden has a very strict untouched policy against drugs historically. It was very unlikely that would change in the nearest decades, before the Election even with the left wing government.
Now, with our new right wing government, we can all forget about any milder restrictions. On the contrary, punishment will be a lot harder, a lot, and there is no chance in Hell of any legislation.
Part of this of course the debate on drugs in the media here, tv, radio, papers et cetera, where it's clearly so that: ONLY drug dealers and some of the users welcome a legislation. They say it themselves.
WHY is that? On TV they've said (in disguise of course), legislation would be the only way for them to earn more money out of the shit.
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Post by felonious on Nov 13, 2022 18:22:46 GMT
Can you explain the "overall harm score" in detail. Alcohol has a score of around 72. 72 what Is the exceptionally high usage and availability of alcohol reflected in the score? I've just had a quick look but can't find any particular information. This is from an article on the BBC. Prof Nutt told the BBC: "Overall, alcohol is the most harmful drug because it's so widely used. "Crack cocaine is more addictive than alcohol but because alcohol is so widely used there are hundreds of thousands of people who crave alcohol every day, and those people will go to extraordinary lengths to get it." www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11660210If it's based on pure numbers then it would have to be scaled back to reflect usage. There is another distinction in the fact that alcohol use is actively encouraged/ glamorised on both TV and radio whereas currently because of prohibition drugs are not. Edit sorry Metalhead I thought I'd quoted you
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Post by marylandstoke on Nov 15, 2022 6:59:47 GMT
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Post by elystokie on Nov 15, 2022 11:04:03 GMT
I'm intrigued about what happens to people that break the cannabis laws between now and next July when it becomes legal, hasn't Biden recently released about 6,000 such offenders from jail? Reminds of when the bluffer announced on the Thursday (might have been Wednesday) he was ending the lockdown on the Monday, the very next day teenagers were gathering in groups, of course they weren't going to wait, I'd imagine very few people expected them to.
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Post by marylandstoke on Nov 15, 2022 11:14:46 GMT
I'm intrigued about what happens to people that break the cannabis laws between now and next July when it becomes legal, hasn't Biden recently released about 6,000 such offenders from jail? Reminds of when the bluffer announced on the Thursday (might have been Wednesday) he was ending the lockdown on the Monday, the very next day teenagers were gathering in groups, of course they weren't going to wait, I'd imagine very few people expected them to. The whole State v Federal is the major problem. The reason I can’t claim on my taxes is that, whilst the State recognises my card The Feds don’t.
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Post by marylandstoke on Nov 15, 2022 11:22:45 GMT
Just wanted to say by the way.. Thanks for keeping this civilised. I had had pause on a couple of occasions but there has been some great stuff. If you have any idea of the hell of opioids, plus, due to the way the system works you could be doing a couple of days a month on a withdrawal,worse, I am told, than H. The day my wife had to drive to sixteen pharmacies to get a prescription filled whilst knowing the condition I was in at home.
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Post by elystokie on Nov 15, 2022 11:24:18 GMT
I'm intrigued about what happens to people that break the cannabis laws between now and next July when it becomes legal, hasn't Biden recently released about 6,000 such offenders from jail? Reminds of when the bluffer announced on the Thursday (might have been Wednesday) he was ending the lockdown on the Monday, the very next day teenagers were gathering in groups, of course they weren't going to wait, I'd imagine very few people expected them to. The whole State v Federal is the major problem. The reason I can’t claim on my taxes is that, whilst the State recognises my card The Feds don’t. It's a ridiculous situation for sure, governments are always going to be reluctant to relinquish control tho. Putting restrictions on the amount of something people are allowed to possess, when those same people can possess and consume as much as they like of products that could harm or kill them far more easily seems bizarre to me but I suppose they have to start somewhere.
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Post by elystokie on Nov 17, 2022 1:20:08 GMT
I'm intrigued about what happens to people that break the cannabis laws between now and next July when it becomes legal, hasn't Biden recently released about 6,000 such offenders from jail? Reminds of when the bluffer announced on the Thursday (might have been Wednesday) he was ending the lockdown on the Monday, the very next day teenagers were gathering in groups, of course they weren't going to wait, I'd imagine very few people expected them to. The whole State v Federal is the major problem. The reason I can’t claim on my taxes is that, whilst the State recognises my card The Feds don’t. This might give you some encouragement? Seems the vast majority on this sub-committee are determined to make federal legislation happen, would that change the tax situation?
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Post by Goonie on Nov 17, 2022 9:33:04 GMT
In relation to legalising cannabis I think the best people to speak to would be users who started using as teenagers and are now in the 40s-50s not teenagers / young people who’ve just started using. We had a long debate on this in the London thread. As someone against legalisation I’d like to know if drugs are legalised. - What drugs would remain illegal. - What age could you illegally buy them. - If they’re only sold legally what would stop teens going on to the black market? - How could you gauge if someone’s taking to much and will have a long term issue. - Would you limit how much someone uses. - If you have an addict what happens if they can’t afford any more. Seeing as elystokie has lost patience, I'll bite. What drugs would remain illegal? I would legalise Cannabis tomorrow. All of the science supports legalising it. End of. The end. There is nothing more to the debate. I would also look to legalise ecstasy. Why? Again, because I follow the science. You can pull these statistics from anywhere, but the headline is: (Proportionally) "Significantly more people die from alcohol and tobacco consumption use than ecstasy". In other words, take an equal sized sample set of pissheads, smokers and pillheads.... your best chance of survival, by a distance, is to be hanging around with all the ravers listening to the Happy Monday's. Years ago, the government published a league table of drugs and their capacity for harm which is still available if you dig on Google. Welcome to the science people Naturally, such a sensible approach to drugs has long been abandoned. In these modern days of fluffiness and feels, rather than actual science, it's much easier that everything as arbitrarily labelled bad and we dumb the argument right down: "Weeds bad because it causes aggressive viewing of Pineapple Express". The science, as nicely laid out for you above, backs legalisation for a significant number of current drugs. As it is, I would take each drug on a case by case basis. LSD, should stay illegal, in my opinion. On top, all drug usage should be decriminalised regardless of the drug. Why we continue to prosecute 25 year old smack addicts is beyond me... Prosecute the suppliers. The fact usage is criminal, is something that will be judged poorly in years to come. We are effectively compounding peoples misery. What age could you illegally buy them. 18. If they’re only sold legally what would stop teens going on to the black market? Ask my 13 year old self. I used to drink with my mates fairly regularly. How could you gauge if someone’s taking to much and will have a long term issue. Ask any number of my family who have struggled with alcohol. Would you limit how much someone uses. I would implement the same rules that are in-place for alcohol and tobacco consumption. If you have an addict what happens if they can’t afford any more. Then they don't any? None of the questions you've posed above, really hold any relevance to the debate do they? You can ask all the same questions about an alcoholic. All of the science backs legalising a number of currently prohibited drugs. Simple. Follow the science and you'll get the answers you need. Now..... if you want to follow the science faithfully and to it's logical conclusion: Then we should actually legalise cannabis and pills and start to phase out tobacco and alcohol If tobacco and alcohol were made illegal today, our future generations would be significantly healthier But y'know, another time eh? Great post but I'm interested why, despite the scientific evidence, would you still ban hallucinogens? There is a growing body of evidence suggesting that it can have profound positive impact on mental illness if used in conjunction with psychotherapy
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Post by metalhead on Nov 18, 2022 7:54:44 GMT
Seeing as elystokie has lost patience, I'll bite. What drugs would remain illegal? I would legalise Cannabis tomorrow. All of the science supports legalising it. End of. The end. There is nothing more to the debate. I would also look to legalise ecstasy. Why? Again, because I follow the science. You can pull these statistics from anywhere, but the headline is: (Proportionally) "Significantly more people die from alcohol and tobacco consumption use than ecstasy". In other words, take an equal sized sample set of pissheads, smokers and pillheads.... your best chance of survival, by a distance, is to be hanging around with all the ravers listening to the Happy Monday's. Years ago, the government published a league table of drugs and their capacity for harm which is still available if you dig on Google. Welcome to the science people Naturally, such a sensible approach to drugs has long been abandoned. In these modern days of fluffiness and feels, rather than actual science, it's much easier that everything as arbitrarily labelled bad and we dumb the argument right down: "Weeds bad because it causes aggressive viewing of Pineapple Express". The science, as nicely laid out for you above, backs legalisation for a significant number of current drugs. As it is, I would take each drug on a case by case basis. LSD, should stay illegal, in my opinion. On top, all drug usage should be decriminalised regardless of the drug. Why we continue to prosecute 25 year old smack addicts is beyond me... Prosecute the suppliers. The fact usage is criminal, is something that will be judged poorly in years to come. We are effectively compounding peoples misery. What age could you illegally buy them. 18. If they’re only sold legally what would stop teens going on to the black market? Ask my 13 year old self. I used to drink with my mates fairly regularly. How could you gauge if someone’s taking to much and will have a long term issue. Ask any number of my family who have struggled with alcohol. Would you limit how much someone uses. I would implement the same rules that are in-place for alcohol and tobacco consumption. If you have an addict what happens if they can’t afford any more. Then they don't any? None of the questions you've posed above, really hold any relevance to the debate do they? You can ask all the same questions about an alcoholic. All of the science backs legalising a number of currently prohibited drugs. Simple. Follow the science and you'll get the answers you need. Now..... if you want to follow the science faithfully and to it's logical conclusion: Then we should actually legalise cannabis and pills and start to phase out tobacco and alcohol If tobacco and alcohol were made illegal today, our future generations would be significantly healthier But y'know, another time eh? Great post but I'm interested why, despite the scientific evidence, would you still ban hallucinogens? There is a growing body of evidence suggesting that it can have profound positive impact on mental illness if used in conjunction with psychotherapy I'm not convinced people should be self administering doses of LSD. I suppose you could argue that for any drug, but especially ones where you end up seeing flying chickens and shit??
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Post by elystokie on Nov 18, 2022 9:18:16 GMT
Great post but I'm interested why, despite the scientific evidence, would you still ban hallucinogens? There is a growing body of evidence suggesting that it can have profound positive impact on mental illness if used in conjunction with psychotherapy I'm not convinced people should be self administering doses of LSD. I suppose you could argue that for any drug, but especially ones where you end up seeing flying chickens and shit?? I can see your reasoning and I've never tried it personally or seen anyone else try it, doesn't really appeal, but the amount needed to actually overdose in comparison to the amount used for the 'effect' (think that's called the LD50) is absolutely huge for LSD.
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Post by davethebass on Nov 18, 2022 9:32:09 GMT
This is an excellent and informative documentary for anyone interested. Bear in mind its ftom 9 years ago, so some things have changed namely where its been legalised up to now, but its still mostly relevant.
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Post by Goonie on Nov 18, 2022 9:52:35 GMT
Great post but I'm interested why, despite the scientific evidence, would you still ban hallucinogens? There is a growing body of evidence suggesting that it can have profound positive impact on mental illness if used in conjunction with psychotherapy I'm not convinced people should be self administering doses of LSD. I suppose you could argue that for any drug, but especially ones where you end up seeing flying chickens and shit?? Same goes for cannabis as it is technically a stimulant and a hallucinogen taken in high enough quantities. Alcohol too, especially in delirium tremens can lead to hallucinations Native people have used hallucinogens for eons. The failure of modern medicine and talking therapies has been an inability to actively engage the subconscious or to quantify the effectiveness at least. Evidence is building to suggest that therapeutic usage could be the breakthrough drug psychiatry has been seeking. Of course is 3 doses of LSD or DMT followed by brief psychotherapy can help a person overcome lifelong problems such as depression why would Big Pharma be interested? Antidepressants improve symptoms without treating the cause. As a recreational drug LSD and DMT can also be beneficial. Some anecdotal reports suggest daily microdosing is effective against depression and anxiety. Some users report monthly or greater frequencies can help them to reset their mind. Any substance can be addictive or harmful. Recently heard of someone becoming psychotic after heavy nitrous oxide usage. One of the side effects of just one administration of LSD is an increase in openness - literally being more open to new ideas, tolerance of others and challenging existing thought. What would be wrong with a world like that?
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Post by elystokie on Nov 18, 2022 11:38:51 GMT
This is an excellent and informative documentary for anyone interested. Bear in mind its ftom 9 years ago, so some things have changed namely where its been legalised up to now, but its still mostly relevant. That's an excellent video. The lady on around 21:50 is funny Had this ridiculous law not been passed in the US many acres of jungle and forest could still be standing, we wouldn't have needed to dig up all the metal we have, instead of exclusively using processes that pollute that atmosphere we could have used a plant that does the opposite. Millions of life years in jail, millions of lives ruined and in some cases lost, millions of people suffering whilst being denied a relatively safe medicine, a massively negative environmental impact, all for seemingly no good reason. The Emperor wears no clothes and never did.
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