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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 11, 2024 22:32:27 GMT
That's fair enough but I don't really agree with him. I think oggyoggy is right above, it was such a complicated topic, that attempting to go into the minutia of the economic benefits of remaining, would have just have turned the electorate off even further. Remain were faced with a brutal opposition that was prepared to say pretty much anything (well essentially lie) to convince the public of their three word slogans and they did and it worked. To blame the remain campaign (regardless of how poor that campaign may have been) as one of the reasons for the leave campaign winning, I just feel is a bit of a cop out now for those people who voted to leave. If only the damn bar man had made a better case for me not to have that last drink, before I elected to drive home etc. Good job you and Oggy were not in charge of the Brexit post mortem then. It was a culmination of a lot of things Either way for better or worse or leaders did a piss poor job of the aftermath. They showed their hand the next day. What they should have done was put on a united front regardless of their political views. We could have made a better fist of it. It’s on all them You see for myself and many others, there simply wasn't a better fist to be made of it. It was an inherently shit/stupid/ridiculous concept from the get go. With all the will and unity in the world, you simply aren't going to be able present a nice apple pie, if the apples you've got are rotten to the core. |
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Post by Ariel Manto on Nov 11, 2024 22:33:49 GMT
That's right - precisely. So sell it. The referendum was the perfect opportunity to explain in detail to the public precisely how the EU worked, and what we got out of it. There was a clear anti-establishment rhetoric being perpetrated by Leave which (I have previously argued) stemmed from the Conservatives deliberately blaming Gordon Brown and Labour holistically for the global economic crash in 2008 - which is factually inaccurate at best. Nonetheless, that messaging from the Tories - ultimately blaming a government for the actions of global traders - made people think that the political class did not know what they were doing, and that they were moreover incapable of controlling what happens to both their livelihood and jobs in a crisis. Remain needed to challenge that message and mindset first. That is what led Gove to use the Brexit message - that we are all sick of experts. That's where it manifests from - the Conservative Party response to the global economic crash. So Remain should have countered that message from the off by saying that you are not getting your country back by leaving the EU. Imagine, if you will, that we are not members of the EU. Imagine if someone were to present you with a list of options. What would you want, as a country, from EU membership? Remain should have explained and sold ; 1. how pooling sovereignty works, what we get out of it, and how isolation has historically always failed; 2. that we do pay a fee to the EU, but that farmers and our food production gets subsidised - not to mention how the EU provided subsidies such as grants, loans, and guarantees, to support businesses, research, jobs and development across the UK; 3. how people can go on holiday and travel without paying visa charges; 4. how the London City along with Frankfurt are the financial hub of the European Continent; 5.how access to the EU's single market facilitated trade and attracted foreign direct investment, boosting the economy; 6. how millions of jobs are linked to EU membership, benefiting from trade and investment opportunities; 7. walked people though how increased economic openness contributes to growth and improved living standards In the end, as I've said, Remain was a manifestly dire voting campaign and we use it demonstrate what not to do when seeking to win an election. Never accept an ill-founded premise. And just like Kamala’s ill fated campaign you can’t blame the electorate when you put poor choices in front of them Most definitely 👍🏻 |
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Post by foghornsgleghorn on Nov 11, 2024 22:37:42 GMT
That's fair enough but I don't really agree with him. I think oggyoggy is right above, it was such a complicated topic, that attempting to go into the minutia of the economic benefits of remaining, would have just have turned the electorate off even further. Remain were faced with a brutal opposition that was prepared to say pretty much anything (well essentially lie) to convince the public of their three word slogans and they did and it worked. To blame the remain campaign (regardless of how poor that campaign may have been) as one of the reasons for the leave campaign winning, I just feel is a bit of a cop out now for those people who voted to leave. If only the damn bar man had made a better case for me not to have that last drink, before I elected to drive home etc. Good job you and Oggy were not in charge of the Brexit post mortem then. It was a culmination of a lot of things Either way for better or worse or leaders did a piss poor job of the aftermath. They showed their hand the next day. What they should have done was put on a united front regardless of their political views. We could have made a better fist of it. It’s on all them The 'deal' was not done the next day. The 'deal' was made four years later with a huge majority for Johnson's 'Get Brexit Done' mission. The EU did not suddenly give the UK what it wanted despite this statement from the UK voting public. Even by then the Leave rabble did not know what they wanted or how to achieve it. We were left with the humiliation of trying to avoid the disaster of a no deal. To say it's all on them is a cop out for those who supported the massive act of self-harm making the UK poorer , those who ignored the warnings and did not ask the questions. |
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Post by salopstick on Nov 11, 2024 22:49:41 GMT
Good job you and Oggy were not in charge of the Brexit post mortem then. It was a culmination of a lot of things Either way for better or worse or leaders did a piss poor job of the aftermath. They showed their hand the next day. What they should have done was put on a united front regardless of their political views. We could have made a better fist of it. It’s on all them The 'deal' was not done the next day. The 'deal' was made four years later with a huge majority for Johnson's 'Get Brexit Done' mission. The EU did not suddenly give the UK what it wanted despite this statement from the UK voting public. Even by then the Leave rabble did not know what they wanted or how to achieve it. We were left with the humiliation of trying to avoid the disaster of a no deal. To say it's all on them is a cop out for those who supported the massive act of self-harm making the UK poorer , those who ignored the warnings and did not ask the questions. We showed out hand the next day when half of parliament cried into their coffee and tried to overturn the result |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 11, 2024 23:07:01 GMT
Continued membership meant more of the same though. It wasn’t easy to articulate because it is so complex. We now don’t have it and, generally, everything is a bit worse as a result and will slowly get even worse as standards drop etc unless we commit to Eu standards, then what was the point? That's right - precisely. So sell it. The referendum was the perfect opportunity to explain in detail to the public precisely how the EU worked, and what we got out of it. There was a clear anti-establishment rhetoric being perpetrated by Leave which (I have previously argued) stemmed from the Conservatives deliberately blaming Gordon Brown and Labour holistically for the global economic crash in 2008 - which is factually inaccurate at best. Nonetheless, that messaging from the Tories - ultimately blaming a government for the actions of global traders - made people think that the political class did not know what they were doing, and that they were moreover incapable of controlling what happens to both their livelihood and jobs in a crisis. Remain needed to challenge that message and mindset first. That is what led Gove to use the Brexit message - that we are all sick of experts. That's where it manifests from - the Conservative Party response to the global economic crash. So Remain should have countered that message from the off by saying that you are not getting your country back by leaving the EU. Imagine, if you will, that we are not members of the EU. Imagine if someone were to present you with a list of options. What would you want, as a country, from EU membership? Remain should have explained and sold ; 1. how pooling sovereignty works, what we get out of it, and how isolation has historically always failed; 2. that we do pay a fee to the EU, but that farmers and our food production gets subsidised - not to mention how the EU provided subsidies such as grants, loans, and guarantees, to support businesses, research, jobs and development across the UK; 3. how people can go on holiday and travel without paying visa charges; 4. how the London City along with Frankfurt are the financial hub of the European Continent; 5.how access to the EU's single market facilitated trade and attracted foreign direct investment, boosting the economy; 6. how millions of jobs are linked to EU membership, benefiting from trade and investment opportunities; 7. walked people though how increased economic openness contributes to growth and improved living standards In the end, as I've said, Remain was a manifestly dire voting campaign and we use it demonstrate what not to do when seeking to win an election. Never accept an ill-founded premise. Some of that sounds like me on the Brexit thread before the vote! |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 11, 2024 23:10:29 GMT
The 'deal' was not done the next day. The 'deal' was made four years later with a huge majority for Johnson's 'Get Brexit Done' mission. The EU did not suddenly give the UK what it wanted despite this statement from the UK voting public. Even by then the Leave rabble did not know what they wanted or how to achieve it. We were left with the humiliation of trying to avoid the disaster of a no deal. To say it's all on them is a cop out for those who supported the massive act of self-harm making the UK poorer , those who ignored the warnings and did not ask the questions. We showed out hand the next day when half of parliament cried into their coffee and tried to overturn the result That’s not what happened. The day after the vote everyone said “what the fuck now?”. Because the leave campaign wasn’t for anything. It was just against something, and absolutely nobody knew what the leave vote was for, so we had a million different views. We should have left very slowly and joined the EEA and respected the very close vote. |
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Post by Ariel Manto on Nov 11, 2024 23:11:11 GMT
That's right - precisely. So sell it. The referendum was the perfect opportunity to explain in detail to the public precisely how the EU worked, and what we got out of it. There was a clear anti-establishment rhetoric being perpetrated by Leave which (I have previously argued) stemmed from the Conservatives deliberately blaming Gordon Brown and Labour holistically for the global economic crash in 2008 - which is factually inaccurate at best. Nonetheless, that messaging from the Tories - ultimately blaming a government for the actions of global traders - made people think that the political class did not know what they were doing, and that they were moreover incapable of controlling what happens to both their livelihood and jobs in a crisis. Remain needed to challenge that message and mindset first. That is what led Gove to use the Brexit message - that we are all sick of experts. That's where it manifests from - the Conservative Party response to the global economic crash. So Remain should have countered that message from the off by saying that you are not getting your country back by leaving the EU. Imagine, if you will, that we are not members of the EU. Imagine if someone were to present you with a list of options. What would you want, as a country, from EU membership? Remain should have explained and sold ; 1. how pooling sovereignty works, what we get out of it, and how isolation has historically always failed; 2. that we do pay a fee to the EU, but that farmers and our food production gets subsidised - not to mention how the EU provided subsidies such as grants, loans, and guarantees, to support businesses, research, jobs and development across the UK; 3. how people can go on holiday and travel without paying visa charges; 4. how the London City along with Frankfurt are the financial hub of the European Continent; 5.how access to the EU's single market facilitated trade and attracted foreign direct investment, boosting the economy; 6. how millions of jobs are linked to EU membership, benefiting from trade and investment opportunities; 7. walked people though how increased economic openness contributes to growth and improved living standards In the end, as I've said, Remain was a manifestly dire voting campaign and we use it demonstrate what not to do when seeking to win an election. Never accept an ill-founded premise. Some of that sounds like me on the Brexit thread before the vote! Great minds, my friend……!  |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 12, 2024 0:00:43 GMT
The 'deal' was not done the next day. The 'deal' was made four years later with a huge majority for Johnson's 'Get Brexit Done' mission. The EU did not suddenly give the UK what it wanted despite this statement from the UK voting public. Even by then the Leave rabble did not know what they wanted or how to achieve it. We were left with the humiliation of trying to avoid the disaster of a no deal. To say it's all on them is a cop out for those who supported the massive act of self-harm making the UK poorer , those who ignored the warnings and did not ask the questions. We showed out hand the next day when half of parliament cried into their coffee and tried to overturn the result I think you're having memory recall issues The Leave Campaign told us "They need us more than we need them" - David Davis And "The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history" - Liam Fox And "There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in this zone." “The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would stay part of this free trade area - and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus - is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining UKIP" - Michael Gove Besides everything else it's a complete lie because none of the Countries named are in a Customs Union with EU And "There is no plan for no deal, because we’re going to get a great deal" - Boris Johnson The Leave Campaign either had no Fucking idea what they were doing or just blatantly lied - you choose. |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 12, 2024 11:54:26 GMT
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Post by Ariel Manto on Nov 12, 2024 13:08:08 GMT
here we go blaming leave voters again if our politicians had done a good job of making sure we didnt blindly signup to everything and explained it to the population maybe with an extra vote if our politicians had done a better job of intergration and infrastructure if the EU had conceded some ground to Cameron on his visit (the island is different to mainland and could have had a few concessions) then maybe the eurosceptic MPs wouldnt have been has vociferous if remain had done a better job of there campaign instead of concentrating on Brexit bad then maybe the leave campaign wouldnt have won if 650ish MPs had respected the vote and worked as a parliment maybe we could have got a better deal its not the voters fault, they vote on the circumstances our politicians give us It is everyone’s fault but the people who voted leave that we left the EU! You were all frogmarched to the ballot box with a gun to your head and forced to vote leave. No leave voter was responsible for their actions. No leave voter could possibly be expected to educate themselves about the implications of leaving the EU! A great reason why super complex questions should never be put to a nation to answer, particularly with two diabolical campaigns on each side. Lies v doom. At least you are finally admitting the obvious that leave voters had absolutely no idea what they were actually voting for other than “change”? After all this time we still don’t know the full impact of what leave voters voted for because successive governments since Johnson’s deal have been too scared to fully implement it as it is so much worse than what we had. So we preserve the status quo. You're totally right on referenda - it's by some margin the worst way to decide policy. Voting behaviour is generally the outcome of political action/inaction rather than the cause of it. The very job of the Remain campaign was to educate voters on the benefits of staying and risks of leaving. Leave had a dichotomous agenda. Leave voters knew what broad themes they wanted and voted for. They voted Leave so that decisions about the UK could be made within the UK; because they had legitimate concerns about high levels of immigration and its impact on jobs, public services, and national identity which the Remain campaign dismissed for some unfathomable reason; because they thought the EU would let the UK negotiate better separate trade deals; because they had a strong desire to challenge the political establishment and the status quo; because the Remain campaign was so poor, arrogant, borderline narcissistic and dismissive of the concerns of a vast swathe of the public. Whilst I disagree with all of those points (apart from the latter), I agree with you that the devil was certainly in the detail. The Leave campaign lacked detailed policy proposals, focussing as it did on broad themes such as sovereignty, immigration control, and economic independence. Key slogans like "Take Back Control" and promises like redirecting funds to the NHS were central to the messaging, and specific policy details were less prominent. Personally, I blame the Remain campaign for being dismissive ad narcissistic towards people who challenged their arguments, and the Leave campaign for not providing significant policy detail. It is not the job of Leave voters or for that matter any other voter in any other election to have to or be expected to flesh out policy details. Some voters want policy detail, some want broad themes. Nonetheless, it IS the job of the politicians to flesh out the policy details from the policy platforms they stand on at elections. It is the politicians which failed in their delivery of the Leave platform. You can't blame Leave voters for that. People are allowed to vote for an idea. Given the Remain campaign was so poor, arrogant, borderline narcissistic and dismissive of the concerns of a vast swathe of the public, is it any wonder they voted Leave?
"Every once in a while, there's a day with an absolute right and an absolute wrong, but those days almost always include body bags." |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 12, 2024 17:02:49 GMT
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Nov 12, 2024 17:05:48 GMT
We are watching the country fall apart. |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 12, 2024 17:06:37 GMT
Free bus travel as well in Sadiq Khan’s shithole |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 12, 2024 17:07:42 GMT
We are watching the country fall apart. Sadly mate there’s a lot of folk who are happy to let it do so including quite a few on here |
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Post by Northy on Nov 12, 2024 17:30:34 GMT
We are watching the country fall apart. Apparently the Cresta Court Hotel in Altrincham where the recent 300 arrived in is owned by Greg Dyke, Vine Hotels has acquired Best Western Cresta Court in Altrincham, South West Manchester. The company, whose Chairman is former BBC Director General and former Chairman of the Football Association Greg Dyke, is jointly owned by Mr Dyke, Vine’s Chief Executive Garin Davies and Andrew Rouse. He donated £55k to Labour in the past. All weddings and bookings were cancelled so Greg can line his pocket, I've stayed there before and recommnded people to stay there for next years Manchester marathon. A primary school and 2 all girls school are within a mile... |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 12, 2024 19:35:25 GMT
We are watching the country fall apart. Future generations will look back on this generation and ask why you let it happen. You can see it happening, and did nothing whatsoever except encourage it. Well meaning, righteous but very nieve. |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Nov 12, 2024 19:36:55 GMT
We are watching the country fall apart. Apparently the Cresta Court Hotel in Altrincham where the recent 300 arrived in is owned by Greg Dyke, Vine Hotels has acquired Best Western Cresta Court in Altrincham, South West Manchester. The company, whose Chairman is former BBC Director General and former Chairman of the Football Association Greg Dyke, is jointly owned by Mr Dyke, Vine’s Chief Executive Garin Davies and Andrew Rouse. He donated £55k to Labour in the past. All weddings and bookings were cancelled so Greg can line his pocket, I've stayed there before and recommnded people to stay there for next years Manchester marathon. A primary school and 2 all girls school are within a mile... My business partners daughter is at Loreto round the corner. He isn't very happy about it all to be fair.. |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Nov 12, 2024 19:42:14 GMT
We are watching the country fall apart. Future generations will look back on this generation and ask why you let it happen. You can see it happening, and did nothing whatsoever except encourage it. Well meaning, righteous but very nieve. In reality nobody in the general public really voted for it. And no matter which of the 2 main parties you vote for seem bothered about sorting it anyway. So in many respects what can I or anyone else possibly do. I'll be abroad some time in the future anyway. Will be getting out before the whole shit house goes up in flames. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Nov 12, 2024 19:51:37 GMT
Future generations will look back on this generation and ask why you let it happen. You can see it happening, and did nothing whatsoever except encourage it. Well meaning, righteous but very nieve. In reality nobody in the general public really voted for it. And no matter which of the 2 main parties you vote for seem bothered about sorting it anyway. So in many respects what can I or anyone else possibly do. I'll be abroad some time in the future anyway. Will be getting out before the whole shit house goes up in flames. Mick , I didn't mean YOU personally, far from it. I didn't phrase it very well. I meant in the future people in the UK or England will ask this current generation why you ( this generation) allowed the dismantling of everything that was good in the country and created problems that they have to deal with....if at all possible to do so. And irrespective of what is happening in the rest of the world. |
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Nov 12, 2024 19:56:51 GMT
Future generations will look back on this generation and ask why you let it happen. You can see it happening, and did nothing whatsoever except encourage it. Well meaning, righteous but very nieve. In reality nobody in the general public really voted for it. And no matter which of the 2 main parties you vote for seem bothered about sorting it anyway. So in many respects what can I or anyone else possibly do. I'll be abroad some time in the future anyway. Will be getting out before the whole shit house goes up in flames. Where you off to, Captain? |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Nov 12, 2024 21:06:49 GMT
In reality nobody in the general public really voted for it. And no matter which of the 2 main parties you vote for seem bothered about sorting it anyway. So in many respects what can I or anyone else possibly do. I'll be abroad some time in the future anyway. Will be getting out before the whole shit house goes up in flames. Where you off to, Captain? Spain or Portugal i reckon. Got me an Irish passport 😉 |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Nov 12, 2024 21:08:27 GMT
In reality nobody in the general public really voted for it. And no matter which of the 2 main parties you vote for seem bothered about sorting it anyway. So in many respects what can I or anyone else possibly do. I'll be abroad some time in the future anyway. Will be getting out before the whole shit house goes up in flames. Mick , I didn't mean YOU personally, far from it. I didn't phrase it very well. I meant in the future people in the UK or England will ask this current generation why you ( this generation) allowed the dismantling of everything that was good in the country and created problems that they have to deal with....if at all possible to do so. And irrespective of what is happening in the rest of the world. I know you were talking generally pal 👍 |
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Post by elystokie on Nov 13, 2024 3:05:56 GMT
In reality nobody in the general public really voted for it. And no matter which of the 2 main parties you vote for seem bothered about sorting it anyway. So in many respects what can I or anyone else possibly do. I'll be abroad some time in the future anyway. Will be getting out before the whole shit house goes up in flames. Mick , I didn't mean YOU personally, far from it. I didn't phrase it very well. I meant in the future people in the UK or England will ask this current generation why you ( this generation) allowed the dismantling of everything that was good in the country and created problems that they have to deal with....if at all possible to do so. And irrespective of what is happening in the rest of the world. Don't know what a 'generation' is classed as in years but surely the Tories were in charge for getting on for a whole one? What do you think future generations will think of the war on drugs? Will they see it as alcohol prohibition Mk2 or something else? |
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Post by knype on Nov 13, 2024 4:39:00 GMT
Mick , I didn't mean YOU personally, far from it. I didn't phrase it very well. I meant in the future people in the UK or England will ask this current generation why you ( this generation) allowed the dismantling of everything that was good in the country and created problems that they have to deal with....if at all possible to do so. And irrespective of what is happening in the rest of the world. Don't know what a 'generation' is classed as in years but surely the Tories were in charge for getting on for a whole one? What do you think future generations will think of the war on drugs? Will they see it as alcohol prohibition Mk2 or something else? Hasn't the war on drugs got it's own thread that you keep going? |
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Post by elystokie on Nov 13, 2024 5:08:27 GMT
Don't know what a 'generation' is classed as in years but surely the Tories were in charge for getting on for a whole one? What do you think future generations will think of the war on drugs? Will they see it as alcohol prohibition Mk2 or something else? Hasn't the war on drugs got it's own thread that you keep going? It has. Does that preclude it from being mentioned in any other thread? |
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Post by Northy on Nov 13, 2024 8:57:20 GMT
Apparently the Cresta Court Hotel in Altrincham where the recent 300 arrived in is owned by Greg Dyke, Vine Hotels has acquired Best Western Cresta Court in Altrincham, South West Manchester. The company, whose Chairman is former BBC Director General and former Chairman of the Football Association Greg Dyke, is jointly owned by Mr Dyke, Vine’s Chief Executive Garin Davies and Andrew Rouse. He donated £55k to Labour in the past. All weddings and bookings were cancelled so Greg can line his pocket, I've stayed there before and recommended people to stay there for next years Manchester marathon. A primary school and 2 all girls school are within a mile... My business partners daughter is at Loreto round the corner. He isn't very happy about it all to be fair.. We enjoy going to the market, probably will be there the weekend after this one, will see what it's like. I see it in Stevenage where I go regularly with 3 hotels being taken over now for a good year, I was walking from the station back to my hotel the other week, about 10.30 at night and a young lady on a bike was being shouted at by a group, asking if she was cold and wanted warming up. I know it use to happen here with groups of lads/builders wolf whistling etc. but I haven't seen that in a long time from local born people. |
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Post by dutchstokie on Nov 13, 2024 11:43:07 GMT
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Post by Ariel Manto on Nov 13, 2024 11:53:06 GMT
The number of European Union member states which have misappropriated the notion of "free movement of peoples" is a bit frightening. I mean, it's supposed to be free movement of all EU nationals as opposed to everybody under the sun. |
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Post by phileetin on Nov 13, 2024 11:59:41 GMT
in calais , all the illegals have to do is go for a paddle and the uk border patrol will give them a free ride here in case they drown .
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Post by Ariel Manto on Nov 13, 2024 12:07:22 GMT
in calais , all the illegals have to do is go for a paddle and the uk border patrol will give them a free ride here in case they drown . Well, you can never put too high a price on water safety! |
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