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Post by salopstick on Nov 11, 2024 15:08:48 GMT
France is also a safe country so not sure why they need to cross the channel and risk their lives doing so if their reason for coming here is to escape persecution. They wouldn't be persecuted in France would they? No, but leave voters voted to rip up our returns agreement to EU nations. So we can’t send them back to France anymore. here we go blaming leave voters again if our politicians had done a good job of making sure we didnt blindly signup to everything and explained it to the population maybe with an extra vote if our politicians had done a better job of intergration and infrastructure if the EU had conceded some ground to Cameron on his visit (the island is different to mainland and could have had a few concessions) then maybe the eurosceptic MPs wouldnt have been has vociferous if remain had done a better job of there campaign instead of concentrating on Brexit bad then maybe the leave campaign wouldnt have won if 650ish MPs had respected the vote and worked as a parliment maybe we could have got a better deal its not the voters fault, they vote on the circumstances our politicians give us |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 11, 2024 15:31:48 GMT
No, but leave voters voted to rip up our returns agreement to EU nations. So we can’t send them back to France anymore. here we go blaming leave voters again if our politicians had done a good job of making sure we didnt blindly signup to everything and explained it to the population maybe with an extra vote if our politicians had done a better job of intergration and infrastructure if the EU had conceded some ground to Cameron on his visit (the island is different to mainland and could have had a few concessions) then maybe the eurosceptic MPs wouldnt have been has vociferous if remain had done a better job of there campaign instead of concentrating on Brexit bad then maybe the leave campaign wouldnt have won if 650ish MPs had respected the vote and worked as a parliment maybe we could have got a better deal its not the voters fault, they vote on the circumstances our politicians give us It is everyone’s fault but the people who voted leave that we left the EU! You were all frogmarched to the ballot box with a gun to your head and forced to vote leave. No leave voter was responsible for their actions. No leave voter could possibly be expected to educate themselves about the implications of leaving the EU! A great reason why super complex questions should never be put to a nation to answer, particularly with two diabolical campaigns on each side. Lies v doom. At least you are finally admitting the obvious that leave voters had absolutely no idea what they were actually voting for other than “change”? After all this time we still don’t know the full impact of what leave voters voted for because successive governments since Johnson’s deal have been too scared to fully implement it as it is so much worse than what we had. So we preserve the status quo. |
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Post by Ariel Manto on Nov 11, 2024 15:58:35 GMT
 God I hope you don't actually look like that, by the way!
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Post by salopstick on Nov 11, 2024 16:06:43 GMT
here we go blaming leave voters again if our politicians had done a good job of making sure we didnt blindly signup to everything and explained it to the population maybe with an extra vote if our politicians had done a better job of intergration and infrastructure if the EU had conceded some ground to Cameron on his visit (the island is different to mainland and could have had a few concessions) then maybe the eurosceptic MPs wouldnt have been has vociferous if remain had done a better job of there campaign instead of concentrating on Brexit bad then maybe the leave campaign wouldnt have won if 650ish MPs had respected the vote and worked as a parliment maybe we could have got a better deal its not the voters fault, they vote on the circumstances our politicians give us It is everyone’s fault but the people who voted leave that we left the EU! You were all frogmarched to the ballot box with a gun to your head and forced to vote leave. No leave voter was responsible for their actions. No leave voter could possibly be expected to educate themselves about the implications of leaving the EU! A great reason why super complex questions should never be put to a nation to answer, particularly with two diabolical campaigns on each side. Lies v doom. At least you are finally admitting the obvious that leave voters had absolutely no idea what they were actually voting for other than “change”? After all this time we still don’t know the full impact of what leave voters voted for because successive governments since Johnson’s deal have been too scared to fully implement it as it is so much worse than what we had. So we preserve the status quo. cant have it all, voters dont always know what they are getting - business owners didnt know they were going to get stung by increased NI costs the politicians put the conditions in place which guide us in how we place our vote - call it a manifesto if you will the people vote according to that manifesto - want a different outcome? produce a different manifesto brexit seems like an easy win to blame thick ignorant racist voters when the reality is different |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 11, 2024 16:06:51 GMT
No, but leave voters voted to rip up our returns agreement to EU nations. So we can’t send them back to France anymore. here we go blaming leave voters again if remain had done a better job of there campaign instead of concentrating on Brexit bad then maybe the leave campaign wouldnt have won That's pretty next level mate. It's the remain campaign's fault for people voting for Brexit. 😁 |
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Post by salopstick on Nov 11, 2024 16:10:05 GMT
here we go blaming leave voters again if remain had done a better job of there campaign instead of concentrating on Brexit bad then maybe the leave campaign wouldnt have won That's pretty next level mate. It's the remain campaign's fault for people voting for Brexit. 😁 Paul, you may disagree with me (healthy) but it is a bit poor and misleading that. It was a myriad of things remain/leave campaigns and previous government actions that led to the vote as i said in my post, not just the one thing you chose to quote. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 11, 2024 16:15:01 GMT
That's pretty next level mate. It's the remain campaign's fault for people voting for Brexit. 😁 Paul, you may disagree with me (healthy) but it is a bit poor and misleading that. It was a myriad of things remain/leave campaigns and previous government actions that led to the vote as i said in my post, not just the one thing you chose to quote. That's because I'm focusing on that specific reason that you listed. When it's isolated, it doesn't really seem very credible does it? I've seen people offer lots of (some actually rather bizarre) explanations for people voting for Brexit but that one is proper next level imo. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Nov 11, 2024 16:18:57 GMT
Nailed it.
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Post by salopstick on Nov 11, 2024 16:19:44 GMT
Paul, you may disagree with me (healthy) but it is a bit poor and misleading that. It was a myriad of things remain/leave campaigns and previous government actions that led to the vote as i said in my post, not just the one thing you chose to quote. That's because I'm focusing on that specific reason that you listed. When it's isolated, it doesn't really seem very credible does it? I've seen people offer lots of (some actually rather bizarre) explanations for people voting for Brexit but that one is proper next level imo. thats why my argument wasnt isolated, it was for lots of reasons combined. |
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Post by salopstick on Nov 11, 2024 16:21:28 GMT
i didnt care that my child was in a class with polish and other immigrants - i cared that my child was in a class of 40 immigration and increased personel needs infrastructure to go with integration - sucessive governemnts both labour and tory did not get right, schools, housing, roads etc etc and in working class areas they did feel that burden on the infrastructure that places like london didnt or didnt affect the affluent |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 11, 2024 16:21:29 GMT
That's because I'm focusing on that specific reason that you listed. When it's isolated, it doesn't really seem very credible does it? I've seen people offer lots of (some actually rather bizarre) explanations for people voting for Brexit but that one is proper next level imo. thats why my argument wasnt isolated, it was for lots of reasons combined. Of course the remain campaign were going to focus on Brexit being bad, Brexit IS bad. I'm focusing on one specific point you made and I don't think that that one (specifically) stacks up. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 11, 2024 16:25:13 GMT
Yes he does but I think you can go even further than that and suggest that the small boats "crisis" was deliberately engineered by the Tories to CREATE that scapegoat. |
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Post by wannabee on Nov 11, 2024 16:26:04 GMT
I knew someone would correct me where I am wrong! Oggy you're a tease. You know full well that there'd be at least half a dozen posters waiting to pounce on your mistake. They live for it. You can see from Oggys post he wasn't entirely confident After many years it's still normally UK Human Rights Act/ECHR that people misinterpret like Northy did Oggy was interpreting the Dublin Regulation so I thought I would clarify what it actually was before we went down a different Rabbit Hole |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 11, 2024 16:29:03 GMT
It is everyone’s fault but the people who voted leave that we left the EU! You were all frogmarched to the ballot box with a gun to your head and forced to vote leave. No leave voter was responsible for their actions. No leave voter could possibly be expected to educate themselves about the implications of leaving the EU! A great reason why super complex questions should never be put to a nation to answer, particularly with two diabolical campaigns on each side. Lies v doom. At least you are finally admitting the obvious that leave voters had absolutely no idea what they were actually voting for other than “change”? After all this time we still don’t know the full impact of what leave voters voted for because successive governments since Johnson’s deal have been too scared to fully implement it as it is so much worse than what we had. So we preserve the status quo. cant have it all, voters dont always know what they are getting - business owners didnt know they were going to get stung by increased NI costs the politicians put the conditions in place which guide us in how we place our vote - call it a manifesto if you will the people vote according to that manifesto - want a different outcome? produce a different manifesto brexit seems like an easy win to blame thick ignorant racist voters when the reality is different The thick and ignorant generally did vote leave (if they voted), but obviously not all leave voters are thick and/or ignorant by any stretch. NI increase for certain companies is a tiny example. Brexit has very wide reaching implications. Leave campaigners lied and didn’t tell us what they would do. They just lied. Remain voters doom mongered, but they certainly got all the negative trends correct. The public should never have been given such a simple question to such a complex issue, and we never should have a referendum again. The other key difference with the NI increase is those people that oppose it can vote out Labour at the next election. A one off event is not democratic. Anyway, going back on topic, xenophobia got the leave victory over the line with fear mongering and lies about immigration. Since we left the EU and “taken back control of our borders”, immigration has sky rocketed. Perhaps we should rejoin to get immigration back under control. |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Nov 11, 2024 17:08:50 GMT
View AttachmentOggy you're a tease. You know full well that there'd be at least half a dozen posters waiting to pounce on your mistake. They live for it. You can see from Oggys post he wasn't entirely confident After many years it's still normally UK Human Rights Act/ECHR that people misinterpret like Northy did Oggy was interpreting the Dublin Regulation so I thought I would clarify what it actually was before we went down a different Rabbit Hole The rabbit holes are what makes this place interesting, not the clear cut answers. Pages of back and forth bullshit keeps things ticking over. I desperately try not to give a fig about as much of it as possible and just get the old wooden spoon out for my own amusement. I actually think all the Boris and Trump stuff started as a wind up, then they actually realised people were buying it and they'd go the whole hog. Corbyn was probably a little bit the same. |
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Post by Ariel Manto on Nov 11, 2024 18:26:02 GMT
cant have it all, voters dont always know what they are getting - business owners didnt know they were going to get stung by increased NI costs the politicians put the conditions in place which guide us in how we place our vote - call it a manifesto if you will the people vote according to that manifesto - want a different outcome? produce a different manifesto brexit seems like an easy win to blame thick ignorant racist voters when the reality is different The thick and ignorant generally did vote leave (if they voted), but obviously not all leave voters are thick and/or ignorant by any stretch. NI increase for certain companies is a tiny example. Brexit has very wide reaching implications. Leave campaigners lied and didn’t tell us what they would do. They just lied. Remain voters doom mongered, but they certainly got all the negative trends correct. The public should never have been given such a simple question to such a complex issue, and we never should have a referendum again. The other key difference with the NI increase is those people that oppose it can vote out Labour at the next election. A one off event is not democratic. Anyway, going back on topic, xenophobia got the leave victory over the line with fear mongering and lies about immigration. Since we left the EU and “taken back control of our borders”, immigration has sky rocketed. Perhaps we should rejoin to get immigration back under control. Surely the “thick and ignorant” (horrible phrase to place against people) couldn’t be bothered to vote at all? |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 11, 2024 19:49:15 GMT
The thick and ignorant generally did vote leave (if they voted), but obviously not all leave voters are thick and/or ignorant by any stretch. NI increase for certain companies is a tiny example. Brexit has very wide reaching implications. Leave campaigners lied and didn’t tell us what they would do. They just lied. Remain voters doom mongered, but they certainly got all the negative trends correct. The public should never have been given such a simple question to such a complex issue, and we never should have a referendum again. The other key difference with the NI increase is those people that oppose it can vote out Labour at the next election. A one off event is not democratic. Anyway, going back on topic, xenophobia got the leave victory over the line with fear mongering and lies about immigration. Since we left the EU and “taken back control of our borders”, immigration has sky rocketed. Perhaps we should rejoin to get immigration back under control. Surely the “thick and ignorant” (horrible phrase to place against people) couldn’t be bothered to vote at all? I’m not sure that’s true. Leave won after all 😉 |
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Post by Ariel Manto on Nov 11, 2024 19:53:24 GMT
Surely the “thick and ignorant” (horrible phrase to place against people) couldn’t be bothered to vote at all? I’m not sure that’s true. Leave won after all 😉 I mean, what can you do???  |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Nov 11, 2024 19:55:23 GMT
I’m not sure that’s true. Leave won after all 😉 I mean, what can you do??? I voted leave because Farage Gin is a lovely drop. May as well vote for that than anything else in the world of “politics”. |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Nov 11, 2024 20:01:05 GMT
I see two tier has made illegal immigration one of his top 2 priorities 🤣🤣🤣🤣just laughable
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Post by Ariel Manto on Nov 11, 2024 20:04:52 GMT
I see two tier has made illegal immigration one of his top 2 priorities 🤣🤣🤣🤣just laughable Illegal immigration should not be anyone's priority. Given that in reality it isn't a priority. |
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Post by Ariel Manto on Nov 11, 2024 20:07:59 GMT
I mean, what can you do??? I voted leave because Farage Gin is a lovely drop. May as well vote for that than anything else in the world of “politics”. An awful lot of people did that mate - they saw voting Leave as a way of expressing dissatisfaction with the political establishment, without necessarily understanding the full implications. I know at least one Badger person who did that. |
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Post by salopstick on Nov 11, 2024 20:08:38 GMT
here we go blaming leave voters again if remain had done a better job of there campaign instead of concentrating on Brexit bad then maybe the leave campaign wouldnt have won That's pretty next level mate. It's the remain campaign's fault for people voting for Brexit. 😁 According to Sir John Curtice pollster extraordinaire it was part of the reason “Whilst the Leave side may have made good tactical decisions during the campaign, part of its success came from the Remain campaign failing to provide convincing enough counter arguments or arguments of their own. A lot of the Remain's campaign was built around spreading the notion that Brexit would weaken Britain, yet Curtice notes that the campaign offered little explanation as to "how the UK economy might be strengthened further by continued EU membership". So yep even in isolation it was a factor;) |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Nov 11, 2024 20:16:39 GMT
I voted leave because Farage Gin is a lovely drop. May as well vote for that than anything else in the world of “politics”. An awful lot of people did that mate - they saw voting Leave as a way of expressing dissatisfaction with the political establishment, without necessarily understanding the full implications. I know at least one Badger person who did that. The truth is worse than that…… |
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Post by Ariel Manto on Nov 11, 2024 20:19:51 GMT
That's pretty next level mate. It's the remain campaign's fault for people voting for Brexit. 😁 According to Sir John Curtice pollster extraordinaire it was part of the reason “Whilst the Leave side may have made good tactical decisions during the campaign, part of its success came from the Remain campaign failing to provide convincing enough counter arguments or arguments of their own. A lot of the Remain's campaign was built around spreading the notion that Brexit would weaken Britain, yet Curtice notes that the campaign offered little explanation as to "how the UK economy might be strengthened further by continued EU membership". So yep even in isolation it was a factor;) Completely agree. The Remain campaign had an awful media strategy, and got their messaging wrong. Their campaign almost exclusively focused on the economic risks of leaving the EU, but failed to explain what continued membership would offer. On top of that, the Remain campaign let their message become completely overshadowed by the Leave campaign's emphasis on immigration and sovereignty. That, combined with the Remain campaign's utter failure to counter the Leave campaign's anti-establishment sentiment and Corbyn's lukewarm support for Remain, meant Remain shot themselves in the foot. In political science academic circles, the Remain campaign truly is a demonstration of one of the worst voting campaign failures in contemporary political history. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Nov 11, 2024 21:15:30 GMT
According to Sir John Curtice pollster extraordinaire it was part of the reason “Whilst the Leave side may have made good tactical decisions during the campaign, part of its success came from the Remain campaign failing to provide convincing enough counter arguments or arguments of their own. A lot of the Remain's campaign was built around spreading the notion that Brexit would weaken Britain, yet Curtice notes that the campaign offered little explanation as to "how the UK economy might be strengthened further by continued EU membership". So yep even in isolation it was a factor;) Completely agree. The Remain campaign had an awful media strategy, and got their messaging wrong. Their campaign almost exclusively focused on the economic risks of leaving the EU, but failed to explain what continued membership would offer. On top of that, the Remain campaign let their message become completely overshadowed by the Leave campaign's emphasis on immigration and sovereignty. That, combined with the Remain campaign's utter failure to counter the Leave campaign's anti-establishment sentiment and Corbyn's lukewarm support for Remain, meant Remain shot themselves in the foot. In political science academic circles, the Remain campaign truly is a demonstration of one of the worst voting campaign failures in contemporary political history. Continued membership meant more of the same though. It wasn’t easy to articulate because it is so complex. We now don’t have it and, generally, everything is a bit worse as a result and will slowly get even worse as standards drop etc unless we commit to Eu standards, then what was the point? |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Nov 11, 2024 21:32:35 GMT
That's pretty next level mate. It's the remain campaign's fault for people voting for Brexit. 😁 According to Sir John Curtice pollster extraordinaire it was part of the reason “Whilst the Leave side may have made good tactical decisions during the campaign, part of its success came from the Remain campaign failing to provide convincing enough counter arguments or arguments of their own. A lot of the Remain's campaign was built around spreading the notion that Brexit would weaken Britain, yet Curtice notes that the campaign offered little explanation as to "how the UK economy might be strengthened further by continued EU membership". So yep even in isolation it was a factor;) That's fair enough but I don't really agree with him. I think oggyoggy is right above, it was such a complicated topic, that attempting to go into the minutia of the economic benefits of remaining, would have just have turned the electorate off even further. Remain were faced with a brutal opposition that was prepared to say pretty much anything (well essentially lie) to convince the public of their three word slogans and they did and it worked. To blame the remain campaign (regardless of how poor that campaign may have been) as one of the reasons for the leave campaign winning, I just feel is a bit of a cop out now for those people who voted to leave. If only the damn bar man had made a better case for me not to have that last drink, before I elected to drive home etc. |
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Post by Ariel Manto on Nov 11, 2024 21:38:50 GMT
Completely agree. The Remain campaign had an awful media strategy, and got their messaging wrong. Their campaign almost exclusively focused on the economic risks of leaving the EU, but failed to explain what continued membership would offer. On top of that, the Remain campaign let their message become completely overshadowed by the Leave campaign's emphasis on immigration and sovereignty. That, combined with the Remain campaign's utter failure to counter the Leave campaign's anti-establishment sentiment and Corbyn's lukewarm support for Remain, meant Remain shot themselves in the foot. In political science academic circles, the Remain campaign truly is a demonstration of one of the worst voting campaign failures in contemporary political history. though. It wasn’t easy to articulate because it is so complex. We now don’t have it and, generally, everything is a bit worse as a result and will slowly get even worse as standards drop etc unless we commit to Eu standards, then what was the point? That's right - precisely. So sell it. The referendum was the perfect opportunity to explain in detail to the public precisely how the EU worked, and what we got out of it. There was a clear anti-establishment rhetoric being perpetrated by Leave which (I have previously argued) stemmed from the Conservatives deliberately blaming Gordon Brown and Labour holistically for the global economic crash in 2008 - which is factually inaccurate at best. Nonetheless, that messaging from the Tories - ultimately blaming a government for the actions of global traders - made people think that the political class did not know what they were doing, and that they were moreover incapable of controlling what happens to both their livelihood and jobs in a crisis. Remain needed to challenge that message and mindset first. That is what led Gove to use the Brexit message - that we are all sick of experts. That's where it manifests from - the Conservative Party response to the global economic crash. So Remain should have countered that message from the off by saying that you are not getting your country back by leaving the EU. Imagine, if you will, that we are not members of the EU. Imagine if someone were to present you with a list of options. What would you want, as a country, from EU membership? Remain should have explained and sold ; 1. how pooling sovereignty works, what we get out of it, and how isolation has historically always failed; 2. that we do pay a fee to the EU, but that farmers and our food production gets subsidised - not to mention how the EU provided subsidies such as grants, loans, and guarantees, to support businesses, research, jobs and development across the UK; 3. how people can go on holiday and travel without paying visa charges; 4. how the London City along with Frankfurt are the financial hub of the European Continent; 5.how access to the EU's single market facilitated trade and attracted foreign direct investment, boosting the economy; 6. how millions of jobs are linked to EU membership, benefiting from trade and investment opportunities; 7. walked people though how increased economic openness contributes to growth and improved living standards In the end, as I've said, Remain was a manifestly dire voting campaign and we use it demonstrate what not to do when seeking to win an election. Never accept an ill-founded premise. |
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Post by salopstick on Nov 11, 2024 22:22:52 GMT
According to Sir John Curtice pollster extraordinaire it was part of the reason “Whilst the Leave side may have made good tactical decisions during the campaign, part of its success came from the Remain campaign failing to provide convincing enough counter arguments or arguments of their own. A lot of the Remain's campaign was built around spreading the notion that Brexit would weaken Britain, yet Curtice notes that the campaign offered little explanation as to "how the UK economy might be strengthened further by continued EU membership". So yep even in isolation it was a factor;) That's fair enough but I don't really agree with him. I think oggyoggy is right above, it was such a complicated topic, that attempting to go into the minutia of the economic benefits of remaining, would have just have turned the electorate off even further. Remain were faced with a brutal opposition that was prepared to say pretty much anything (well essentially lie) to convince the public of their three word slogans and they did and it worked. To blame the remain campaign (regardless of how poor that campaign may have been) as one of the reasons for the leave campaign winning, I just feel is a bit of a cop out now for those people who voted to leave. If only the damn bar man had made a better case for me not to have that last drink, before I elected to drive home etc. Good job you and Oggy were not in charge of the Brexit post mortem then. It was a culmination of a lot of things Either way for better or worse or leaders did a piss poor job of the aftermath. They showed their hand the next day. What they should have done was put on a united front regardless of their political views. We could have made a better fist of it. It’s on all them |
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Post by salopstick on Nov 11, 2024 22:26:25 GMT
Continued membership meant more of the same though. It wasn’t easy to articulate because it is so complex. We now don’t have it and, generally, everything is a bit worse as a result and will slowly get even worse as standards drop etc unless we commit to Eu standards, then what was the point? That's right - precisely. So sell it. The referendum was the perfect opportunity to explain in detail to the public precisely how the EU worked, and what we got out of it. There was a clear anti-establishment rhetoric being perpetrated by Leave which (I have previously argued) stemmed from the Conservatives deliberately blaming Gordon Brown and Labour holistically for the global economic crash in 2008 - which is factually inaccurate at best. Nonetheless, that messaging from the Tories - ultimately blaming a government for the actions of global traders - made people think that the political class did not know what they were doing, and that they were moreover incapable of controlling what happens to both their livelihood and jobs in a crisis. Remain needed to challenge that message and mindset first. That is what led Gove to use the Brexit message - that we are all sick of experts. That's where it manifests from - the Conservative Party response to the global economic crash. So Remain should have countered that message from the off by saying that you are not getting your country back by leaving the EU. Imagine, if you will, that we are not members of the EU. Imagine if someone were to present you with a list of options. What would you want, as a country, from EU membership? Remain should have explained and sold ; 1. how pooling sovereignty works, what we get out of it, and how isolation has historically always failed; 2. that we do pay a fee to the EU, but that farmers and our food production gets subsidised - not to mention how the EU provided subsidies such as grants, loans, and guarantees, to support businesses, research, jobs and development across the UK; 3. how people can go on holiday and travel without paying visa charges; 4. how the London City along with Frankfurt are the financial hub of the European Continent; 5.how access to the EU's single market facilitated trade and attracted foreign direct investment, boosting the economy; 6. how millions of jobs are linked to EU membership, benefiting from trade and investment opportunities; 7. walked people though how increased economic openness contributes to growth and improved living standards In the end, as I've said, Remain was a manifestly dire voting campaign and we use it demonstrate what not to do when seeking to win an election. Never accept an ill-founded premise. And just like Kamala’s ill fated campaign you can’t blame the electorate when you put poor choices in front of them |
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