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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 8, 2024 13:28:58 GMT
The lady was talking precisely about the economic and mathematical problem of population and future workforce, and how those espousing a complete halt to immigration (i.e the Conservatives and Reform) are potentially creating a huge demographic problem for themselves given the balance of numbers. It's got nothing to do with race, presumably and quite tellingly, outside of your own head. What is quite funny (apart from for those individuals somehow being accused of covert racism, of course) is that you've now developed a situation for yourself whereby you've gone from 1. denying that you ever referenced colour, through 2. saying someone else is inherently racist for thinking you did, to now 3. suggesting that, despite never mentioning or implying anything remotely close to it, the woman was probably referring to colour but surely everyone else should be able to imply it because you definitely did. ----------------------- Quite frankly Ariel the second part of your post is just a whole bunch of lies, God knows what you get out of it. 1. No I didn't, I suggested the claim that Cates wasn't doing that, was wrong. 2. You've just made that up and it's a pretty filthy lie, if I'm honest. 3. I suggested it in my opening post. Back to your original question (God knows why I'm giving you the respect) ... I've said right from the beginning that it's an economic problem, so why does it matter if those people are born here or born somewhere else?Go on, see if you can actually answer the question, without having to resort to a few paragraphs of venomous bile, for a change ... I haven’t read the backward and forwarding of posts that you have been involved over the last few pages but the statement you’ve made is intriguing. Do you mean that if we were given time to sort out our economy to provide the infrastructure to support the immigration policy and everybody regardless of where they were born? That sounds pretty sensible but would take years to do this wouldn’t it? In the meantime immigrants continue to cross the channel in their 1000s costing the taxpayer millions to temporarily accommodate them, causing social problems, overstretching our resources and the possible crime increase. What do we do with these people until we have an economy to support them? Genuine question Paul. [/quote] That's a different point Lawrie, that will take a lengthy answer, unfortunately I've got to pop out now but I will definitely come back to you, later today or tomorrow. |
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Post by musik on Oct 8, 2024 13:52:19 GMT
What do we do with these people until we have an economy to support them? Genuine question First of all, the question in itself is wrong, it should be: "What do these people do until they can support the economy?" But if we leave that utopia for a while ... I've learnt during discussions with thousands of people about politics and economics in my life that the reason some people are for immigration and some people are against it is due to politics and economics. The ones for immigration have a wider ultimate goal. That goal is to even out the median income among countries so poorer countries ultimately become a little bit richer and richer countries become quite a lot poorer. That's that. So what everyone should ask themselves is: If I did get the world median income, would it mean I get it better or worse? That said, the action is not crystal clear. |
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Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 8, 2024 14:06:11 GMT
What do we do with these people until we have an economy to support them? Genuine question First of all, the question in itself is wrong, it should be: "What do these people do until they can support the economy?" But if we leave that utopia for a while ... I've learnt during discussions with thousands of people about politics and economics in my life that the reason some people are for immigration and some people are against it is due to politics and economics. The ones for immigration have a wider ultimate goal. That goal is to even out the median income among countries so poorer countries ultimately become a little bit richer and richer countries become quite a lot poorer. That's that. So what everyone should ask themselves is: If I did get the world median income, would it mean I get it better or worse? That said, the action is not crystal clear. Immigration is good for society and the economy more broadly. Issues arise when actors openly seek to exploit and divide people and their wider communities for their own political and/or socio-economic ends. |
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Post by Gawa on Oct 8, 2024 14:30:07 GMT
The saddest Pro immigration argument for me is "low birth rates"
I'm generally supportive of the freedom of movement within the realms of the law as most of you know.
What does wind me up though is people saying we need immigration due to a low birth rate.
That annoys me because what we are doing is treating a symptom rather than a cause. If we have low birth rates we need to be addressing the reasons for that.
It's like having no water due to a broken pipe. Yes we can keep buying bottled water to address the issue of no running water. But to treat the cause we need to fix the pipe.
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Post by musik on Oct 8, 2024 15:16:57 GMT
The saddest Pro immigration argument for me is "low birth rates" Has someone actually said that? 😵💫 |
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Post by Gawa on Oct 8, 2024 15:23:01 GMT
The saddest Pro immigration argument for me is "low birth rates" Has someone actually said that? 😵💫 Yes many people have and do, I've made the argument myself for it in the past. In the uk many people reference our aging population and how they're living longer and that we don't have enough young people to care for them and keep the economy going. And so we need immigrants as a result. As I've said, I've said similar myself too. But without a real strategy to address why birth rates are low then we are simply kicking the can down the road and putting a sticking plaster over the problem. Immigration is a short term solution to low birth rates but it only treats the symptom. Immigration isn't the solution to low birth rates. Tackling housing insecurity, financial insecurity, child poverty, childcare costs and inequality is how you increase birth rates. |
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Post by musik on Oct 8, 2024 15:26:49 GMT
Immigration is good for society and the economy more broadly. Where? The best for Sweden economically would be to almost split the population in half. If you think about real wages, inflation, labour market, queues to housing, crime, health care and just about everything else. But again, the need to help and the need for help might be bigger. That's why immigration isn't a crystal clear decision. Those needs might be more important than anything else! |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 8, 2024 15:39:14 GMT
I haven’t read the backward and forwarding of posts that you have been involved over the last few pages but the statement you’ve made is intriguing. Do you mean that if we were given time to sort out our economy to provide the infrastructure to support the immigration policy and everybody regardless of where they were born? That sounds pretty sensible but would take years to do this wouldn’t it? In the meantime immigrants continue to cross the channel in their 1000s costing the taxpayer millions to temporarily accommodate them, causing social problems, overstretching our resources and the possible crime increase. What do we do with these people until we have an economy to support them? Genuine question Paul. [/quote] Hope the link works It's not that difficult to trace when the problem began On page 9 of 26 in the link there is a visual depiction of the number of Houses built since WW11 both Local Authority and Private Developers The most was in mid 1960s with about 350K Houses built roughly half Local Authority Skip forward to 1980 and virtually no Local Authority Houses were built that year or in the 25 years since. In the same period the number of Houses built by Private Developers has remained steady at about 200K per year. Successive Governments from Thatcher through Blair and the last lot have abdicated housing provision to the Private Sector. In order to keep prices high the Private Sector will artificially manage the number of houses it will build irrespective of how many are needed In the same period 1980/2024 UK Population has increased from 56M to 70M or 25% the result a mess. If we compare the 1981 census there were 3.5M Foreign Born Citizens versus 10.7M in 2021 Census. So immigration has contributed about 50% to the increased population. My takeaway is that of course Immigration has placed pressure on the housing market but successive studies show on average that immigrants contribute more to GDP than people born in UK. Also some Services like NHS and Social Care would collapse without the immigrant population The failure has been in successive Governments failing to allocate resources to the basic needs of ALL Citizens in Housing and other Public Services like Health, Education etc What I'm talking about above is people born in UK or legally invited to be in UK. The best Government Data available shows about 40K entered UK by irregular means in 2023. This is a large number but surely not an unsurmountable problem with a proper plan. assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a81fa8ced915d74e623521f/EHS_50th_Anniversary_Report.pdf |
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Post by Northy on Oct 8, 2024 16:17:31 GMT
On 4 of the last 5 days no one has crossed the Channel in a small boat. On one day just 1 boat crossed, with 59 people on board. Whatever Sir Keir is doing, it seems to be working very well right now. We should direct our anger at the Tories, who have created and facilitated this situation. I suggest they are never again allowed anywhere near Downing Street. So what happened when the weather improved, nearly a thousand in a day ... |
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Post by Northy on Oct 8, 2024 16:19:26 GMT
No, the babies can come from a multitude of different heritage backgrounds that we have in this country, it's just you bringing colour into it, but hey ho, as Morgan Freeman said, to stop racism, stop talking about colour. It literally isn't. It's not my fault if you don't understand the point. Which has been discussed on this thread already. You've got the option to go back and read what has been said but you clearly can't be arsed and now you're simply spamming the thread. What do you want us to do when you post something (you didn't quote another post) go back and read the thread again page by page |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 8, 2024 16:51:10 GMT
It literally isn't. It's not my fault if you don't understand the point. Which has been discussed on this thread already. You've got the option to go back and read what has been said but you clearly can't be arsed and now you're simply spamming the thread. What do you want us to do when you post something (you didn't quote another post) go back and read the thread again page by page I'd like to hope that you could be bothered to read the dialogue that has taken place SINCE the post that you quoted, especially when it appeared only on the previous page. Although I accept that a lot of people don't. It is a continual bug bear of mine because it often leads to misinterpretation and misrepresentation and I feel that having to make the same point again results in the thread being spammed for absolutely no reason. |
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Post by ParaPsych on Oct 8, 2024 17:04:43 GMT
What do you want us to do when you post something (you didn't quote another post) go back and read the thread again page by page I'd like to hope that you could be bothered to read the dialogue that has taken place SINCE the post that you quoted, especially when it appeared only on the previous page. Although I accept that a lot of people don't. It is a continual bug bear of mine because it often leads to misinterpretation and misrepresentation and I feel that having to make the same point again results in the thread being spammed for absolutely no reason. The broken quotes on the conversation has genuinely stopped me reading any of it. It's very hard to follow who is actually saying what when just dipping in an out. If you could all go back and edit your posts to fix it I'd very much appreciate it. |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 8, 2024 17:13:43 GMT
I'd like to hope that you could be bothered to read the dialogue that has taken place SINCE the post that you quoted, especially when it appeared only on the previous page. Although I accept that a lot of people don't. It is a continual bug bear of mine because it often leads to misinterpretation and misrepresentation and I feel that having to make the same point again results in the thread being spammed for absolutely no reason. The broken quotes on the conversation has genuinely stopped me reading any of it. It's very hard to follow who is actually saying what when just dipping in an out. If you could all go back and edit your posts to fix it I'd very much appreciate it. I suspect foul play👀 |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 8, 2024 17:14:30 GMT
I'd like to hope that you could be bothered to read the dialogue that has taken place SINCE the post that you quoted, especially when it appeared only on the previous page. Although I accept that a lot of people don't. It is a continual bug bear of mine because it often leads to misinterpretation and misrepresentation and I feel that having to make the same point again results in the thread being spammed for absolutely no reason. The broken quotes on the conversation has genuinely stopped me reading any of it. It's very hard to follow who is actually saying what when just dipping in an out. If you could all go back and edit your posts to fix it I'd very much appreciate it. Yeah I gave up when the quoting broke down. Shame as it was brewing nicely 😆 |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 8, 2024 17:16:03 GMT
The broken quotes on the conversation has genuinely stopped me reading any of it. It's very hard to follow who is actually saying what when just dipping in an out. If you could all go back and edit your posts to fix it I'd very much appreciate it. Yeah I gave up when the quoting broke down. Shame as it was brewing nicely 😆 There’s still time for someone else to get “the treatment” dunna worry about that. |
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 8, 2024 17:17:13 GMT
Yeah I gave up when the quoting broke down. Shame as it was brewing nicely 😆 There’s still time for someone else to get “the treatment” dunna worry about that. The Spanish inquisition 😆 |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 8, 2024 17:18:49 GMT
There’s still time for someone else to get “the treatment” dunna worry about that. The Spanish inquisition 😆 I think it’s probably more difficult than the mental gymnastics exam they make you do to join the SAS |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 8, 2024 17:34:07 GMT
I haven’t read the backward and forwarding of posts that you have been involved over the last few pages but the statement you’ve made is intriguing. Do you mean that if we were given time to sort out our economy to provide the infrastructure to support the immigration policy and everybody regardless of where they were born? That sounds pretty sensible but would take years to do this wouldn’t it? In the meantime immigrants continue to cross the channel in their 1000s costing the taxpayer millions to temporarily accommodate them, causing social problems, overstretching our resources and the possible crime increase. What do we do with these people until we have an economy to support them? Genuine question Paul. Hope the link works It's not that difficult to trace when the problem began On page 9 of 26 in the link there is a visual depiction of the number of Houses built since WW11 both Local Authority and Private Developers The most was in mid 1960s with about 350K Houses built roughly half Local Authority Skip forward to 1980 and virtually no Local Authority Houses were built that year or in the 25 years since. In the same period the number of Houses built by Private Developers has remained steady at about 200K per year. Successive Governments from Thatcher through Blair and the last lot have abdicated housing provision to the Private Sector. In order to keep prices high the Private Sector will artificially manage the number of houses it will build irrespective of how many are needed In the same period 1980/2024 UK Population has increased from 56M to 70M or 25% the result a mess. If we compare the 1981 census there were 3.5M Foreign Born Citizens versus 10.7M in 2021 Census. So immigration has contributed about 50% to the increased population. My takeaway is that of course Immigration has placed pressure on the housing market but successive studies show on average that immigrants contribute more to GDP than people born in UK. Also some Services like NHS and Social Care would collapse without the immigrant population The failure has been in successive Governments failing to allocate resources to the basic needs of ALL Citizens in Housing and other Public Services like Health, Education etc What I'm talking about above is people born in UK or legally invited to be in UK. The best Government Data available shows about 40K entered UK by irregular means in 2023. This is a large number but surely not an unsurmountable problem with a proper plan. assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a81fa8ced915d74e623521f/EHS_50th_Anniversary_Report.pdf[/quote] Thanks for the link. For sure it answers the question of why we are so short of housing. It’s shocking and link this with the current issues with water companies and we have little chance of increasing the housing stock to anything like what is required. |
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Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on Oct 8, 2024 17:57:00 GMT
deuce  |
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 8, 2024 17:57:58 GMT
deuce No “love” lost is there…. |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 8, 2024 18:04:49 GMT
I haven’t read the backward and forwarding of posts that you have been involved over the last few pages but the statement you’ve made is intriguing. Do you mean that if we were given time to sort out our economy to provide the infrastructure to support the immigration policy and everybody regardless of where they were born? That sounds pretty sensible but would take years to do this wouldn’t it? In the meantime immigrants continue to cross the channel in their 1000s costing the taxpayer millions to temporarily accommodate them, causing social problems, overstretching our resources and the possible crime increase. What do we do with these people until we have an economy to support them? Genuine question Paul. Hope the link works It's not that difficult to trace when the problem began On page 9 of 26 in the link there is a visual depiction of the number of Houses built since WW11 both Local Authority and Private Developers The most was in mid 1960s with about 350K Houses built roughly half Local Authority Skip forward to 1980 and virtually no Local Authority Houses were built that year or in the 25 years since. In the same period the number of Houses built by Private Developers has remained steady at about 200K per year. Successive Governments from Thatcher through Blair and the last lot have abdicated housing provision to the Private Sector. In order to keep prices high the Private Sector will artificially manage the number of houses it will build irrespective of how many are needed In the same period 1980/2024 UK Population has increased from 56M to 70M or 25% the result a mess. If we compare the 1981 census there were 3.5M Foreign Born Citizens versus 10.7M in 2021 Census. So immigration has contributed about 50% to the increased population. My takeaway is that of course Immigration has placed pressure on the housing market but successive studies show on average that immigrants contribute more to GDP than people born in UK. Also some Services like NHS and Social Care would collapse without the immigrant population The failure has been in successive Governments failing to allocate resources to the basic needs of ALL Citizens in Housing and other Public Services like Health, Education etc What I'm talking about above is people born in UK or legally invited to be in UK. The best Government Data available shows about 40K entered UK by irregular means in 2023. This is a large number but surely not an unsurmountable problem with a proper plan. assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a81fa8ced915d74e623521f/EHS_50th_Anniversary_Report.pdfThanks for the link. For sure it answers the question of why we are so short of housing. It’s shocking and link this with the current issues with water companies and we have little chance of increasing the housing stock to anything like what is required. [/quote] Your correct Lawrie, I just used Housing as an example of how I'll served this Country has been by successive Governments Red and Blue but the same ineptitude pervades in all areas of Public Services provision. When you look at the 1960s building 350K Houses per year the current excuse of Planning Permission is real but lame at the same time because Governments are empowered to Govern not trot out excuses. Basically in my view successive Governments have set priorities which align with their own Ideologies and their supporters not in the interests of the Country as a whole. Every so often you get a new Colour Rosette Governing with new Ideologies and supporters. Rince and repeat. |
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Post by Veritas on Oct 8, 2024 18:13:11 GMT
Hope the link works It's not that difficult to trace when the problem began On page 9 of 26 in the link there is a visual depiction of the number of Houses built since WW11 both Local Authority and Private Developers The most was in mid 1960s with about 350K Houses built roughly half Local Authority Skip forward to 1980 and virtually no Local Authority Houses were built that year or in the 25 years since. In the same period the number of Houses built by Private Developers has remained steady at about 200K per year. Successive Governments from Thatcher through Blair and the last lot have abdicated housing provision to the Private Sector. In order to keep prices high the Private Sector will artificially manage the number of houses it will build irrespective of how many are needed In the same period 1980/2024 UK Population has increased from 56M to 70M or 25% the result a mess. If we compare the 1981 census there were 3.5M Foreign Born Citizens versus 10.7M in 2021 Census. So immigration has contributed about 50% to the increased population. My takeaway is that of course Immigration has placed pressure on the housing market but successive studies show on average that immigrants contribute more to GDP than people born in UK. Also some Services like NHS and Social Care would collapse without the immigrant population The failure has been in successive Governments failing to allocate resources to the basic needs of ALL Citizens in Housing and other Public Services like Health, Education etc What I'm talking about above is people born in UK or legally invited to be in UK. The best Government Data available shows about 40K entered UK by irregular means in 2023. This is a large number but surely not an unsurmountable problem with a proper plan. assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5a81fa8ced915d74e623521f/EHS_50th_Anniversary_Report.pdfThanks for the link. For sure it answers the question of why we are so short of housing. It’s shocking and link this with the current issues with water companies and we have little chance of increasing the housing stock to anything like what is required. Your correct Lawrie, I just used Housing as an example of how I'll served this Country has been by successive Governments Red and Blue but the same ineptitude pervades in all areas of Public Services provision. When you look at the 1960s building 350K Houses per year the current excuse of Planning Permission is real but lame at the same time because Governments are empowered to Govern not trot out excuses. Basically in my view successive Governments have set priorities which align with their own Ideologies and their supporters not in the interests of the Country as a whole. Every so often you get a new Colour Rosette Governing with new Ideologies and supporters. Rince and repeat. [/quote] Changes brought in by Thatcher to restrict councils borrowing had the impact, fully intended, of seeing the level of building of social housing plummet. Subsequent Tory administrations had no desire and Labour administrations no courage to repeal the changes. |
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Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 8, 2024 18:46:46 GMT
The broken quotes on the conversation has genuinely stopped me reading any of it. It's very hard to follow who is actually saying what when just dipping in an out. If you could all go back and edit your posts to fix it I'd very much appreciate it. I suspect foul play👀 Me too as I’ve no idea what happened with the quotes. Either way, fixed my end. I think. |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 8, 2024 19:11:04 GMT
Thanks for the link. For sure it answers the question of why we are so short of housing. It’s shocking and link this with the current issues with water companies and we have little chance of increasing the housing stock to anything like what is required. Your correct Lawrie, I just used Housing as an example of how I'll served this Country has been by successive Governments Red and Blue but the same ineptitude pervades in all areas of Public Services provision. When you look at the 1960s building 350K Houses per year the current excuse of Planning Permission is real but lame at the same time because Governments are empowered to Govern not trot out excuses. Basically in my view successive Governments have set priorities which align with their own Ideologies and their supporters not in the interests of the Country as a whole. Every so often you get a new Colour Rosette Governing with new Ideologies and supporters. Rince and repeat. Changes brought in by Thatcher to restrict councils borrowing had the impact, fully intended, of seeing the level of building of social housing plummet. Subsequent Tory administrations had no desire and Labour administrations no courage to repeal the changes. [/quote] Whilst I agree overall I didn't want to go down the Blue and Red road because as you say Labour had the opportunity to reverse policy and set new priorities It's hard to blame those who took advantage of Thatchers "Right to Buy" Little discussed is that on average those who did buy were an older age profile and generally higher income. At the beginning some of the proceeds of the sales went to the Local Authorities but all that stopped in 1983 and it all went to a cash strapped Treasury. In response Councils began to raise Rents so that after 10 years by 1991 Rents had increased by over 50%. In some respects it could be said that less affluent Council Tenants who couldn't afford or were wary of buying their Council Home subsidised those that did. Hindsight is wonderful but you can only imagine how much rental income Councils would generate in today's Market, in part created by not increasing the Housing Stock. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 8, 2024 20:45:15 GMT
Me too as I’ve no idea what happened with the quotes. Either way, fixed my end. I think.
Blimey, you're a piece of work Ariel.
The broken links were entirely down to you.
The first time it happened, was when you posted here ... oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/post/8277897. And rather than fixing the issue, there and then, (and showing some respect for the other forum members) like most other people would have done. You left it broken, meaning that anybody wanting to reply to your post (and further associated posts) had to navigate it/them the best they could. EDIT: And going back and fixing it now, as you have done this morning, is a bit like bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted as it doesn't actually rectify all the problems that it caused originally.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 8, 2024 20:50:40 GMT
🍿
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Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 8, 2024 21:29:46 GMT
😂😂 Living rent free in Dario G again now! |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 8, 2024 22:31:51 GMT
😂😂 Living rent free in Dario G again now! You know I've posted on this forum for over 25 years and in all that time and following the tens of thousands of posts I've exchanged ideas on, you are the ONLY poster, who has resorted to this type of retort. That's the second time in the last month, you've apparently believed that by posting as much was somehow actually funny. Yes you might think it's original and the gallery that you currently perform to, might lap it up but in reality, it's really quite pathetic and actually rather sad. |
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Post by iancransonsknees on Oct 9, 2024 4:06:34 GMT
Foster, you're going to have your work cut out retaining your title this year.
You need to start putting the hard yards in otherwise a certain victory is going to slip from your grasp.
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Post by thebasfordhedgehog on Oct 9, 2024 6:14:43 GMT
People should be looking to what unites them, not to what separates them.
From the perspective from another planet, we would be aliens. We searched the perspective where we are all equal.
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