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Post by Ariel Manto on Oct 1, 2024 13:33:36 GMT
I understand the point you make, but utilising a chap who only ever lost elections as a counterweight to a man who is now Prime Minister runs somewhat counter to your own logic. I don't believe for a second that the British electorate don't know their General Election voting system (FPTP) works. Corbyn picked up votes from the left from groups such as the Green Party, and other left wing parties - including new student voters due to the Marxist and Communist Party (remember Momentum?) and other left wing student protest groups across campuses in the UK. Picking up more votes amongst your own voter base does not win you a General Election - it merely strengthens your core vote. To that end Corbyn only ever succeeded in attracting more votes from the left and far left. I don't doubt or denigrate how attractive Corbyn's policies were to those on the left and far-left. However, Starmer attracted support across the political divide - the centre-ground, if you will. Corbyn, meanwhile, rather than getting everyone across that divide to buy into his message, lost what are ostensibly traditional working class Labour voting areas such as Stoke-On-Trent and compounded that by consistently (2017 and 2019) alienating the British political centre ground which, whether you/we like it or not, is where General Elections are won and lost. Corbyn's supporters consistently fail to pick up on the fact that Corbyn only entrenched the Labour vote amongst those on the left and far-left, yet failed to secure support across the general political electorate and, more specifically, amongst the centre-ground. That's just how British electoral politics works during General Elections. This is what the Left never seems to grasp! It's all very well shouting from the sidelines about what you'd do if you ever got elected, without ever doing so! Better to be elected and then be able to do stuff... Like many people I'm of the opinion that PR would be a massive step forward for the UK electoral system on so many levels. Not least because it'd probably see the creation of a new leftist party that socialists would feel comfortable endorsing and would gain representation in parliament, albeit relatively minor, in my opinion, but quite possibly involved in future government coalitions. PR would only be a step forwards dependent upon which PR system you used. Either way, you'd get a change of voting behaviour with PR. People know how to vote with FPTP in General Elections. If you live in, say, Newcastle-under-Lyme you know your vote has more electoral sway than, say, Stone given the closeness of the majority. With PR, you're going to get floating voters voting deliberately for parties who are more centre ground- such as in Germany (Mixed Member Proportional Representation (MMP - similar to the UK Additional members System whereby each constituency has one MP – and proportional representation is used to calculate the parties’ seats in parliament determined fairly in proportion to how people voted). So, if that PR were implemented in the UK you're not going to get people voting for seemingly extreme policies because of the fear of what comes with that. People in the UK, as they do in Germany, like and have enjoyed relatively stable government in the post-war period. If PR (AMS) existed in 1982 and 2017-19 voting behaviour would change as that's what happens when electoral systems change. It is an unfair and silly direct comparison to make - that people vote exactly the same irrespective of the voting system. For example, people don't vote the same in local elections as they do in General Elections. Equally, if people in the political centre knew that by voting Labour in Liverpool they may see a Corbyn government, they may very well vote Lib Dem because PR would stop him. |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 1, 2024 16:05:33 GMT
Absolutely laughable
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Post by Foster on Oct 1, 2024 16:08:18 GMT
That sounds like it's from before labour came to power. When is it from? |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 1, 2024 16:09:39 GMT
That sounds like it's from before labour came to power. When is it from? Yes it is mate but considering the figures that came out today he’s doing/done nothing about it |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 1, 2024 16:14:09 GMT
On 4 of the last 5 days no one has crossed the Channel in a small boat. On one day just 1 boat crossed, with 59 people on board. Whatever Sir Keir is doing, it seems to be working very well right now. We should direct our anger at the Tories, who have created and facilitated this situation. I suggest they are never again allowed anywhere near Downing Street.
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Post by sticky on Oct 1, 2024 16:14:54 GMT
Oven ready
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 1, 2024 16:28:11 GMT
So to cut to the chase, is she saying, that we need more white people to have babies, so we don't need to import more brown people?
If (as she claims), there aren't enough people having kids in this country to satisfy the labour market, then why does it matter if they're born here or somewhere else, in order to satisfy it?
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Oct 1, 2024 16:40:14 GMT
On 4 of the last 5 days no one has crossed the Channel in a small boat. On one day just 1 boat crossed, with 59 people on board. Whatever Sir Keir is doing, it seems to be working very well right now. We should direct our anger at the Tories, who have created and facilitated this situation. I suggest they are never again allowed anywhere near Downing Street. Have you looked out yer window the last 4 days 😆 |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Oct 1, 2024 16:40:42 GMT
That sounds like it's from before labour came to power. When is it from? Yes it is mate but considering the figures that came out today he’s doing/done nothing about it You wanted it fixed after less than three months in power? Can we assume you're similarly apoplectic that the NHS waiting lists aren't down to zero yet? 🤣 |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 1, 2024 16:59:56 GMT
Yes it is mate but considering the figures that came out today he’s doing/done nothing about it You wanted it fixed after less than three months in power? Can we assume you're similarly apoplectic that the NHS waiting lists aren't down to zero yet? 🤣 No I wanted some indication something is starting to happen |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 1, 2024 17:58:30 GMT
That sounds like it's from before labour came to power. When is it from? Yes it is mate but considering the figures that came out today he’s doing/done nothing about it This clip is from HoC in March this year The point Starmer was making was that since July 2023 the Conservative Government decided to take a dog in the manger approach and pretend Asylum Seekers didn't exist so they just shoved them in Hotels. Without reviewing an Asylum Application they had nowhere to go, can't work or potentially be sent back. The "numbers that came out today" are a Legacy of this stupidity when in total 50k Asylum Seekers weren't processed just given accommodation. What is it precisely you expected Starmer to solve in 12 weeks that the Conservatives couldn't solve in 14 years? |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 1, 2024 18:56:37 GMT
So to cut to the chase, is she saying, that we need more white people to have babies, so we don't need to import more brown people? If (as she claims), there aren't enough people having kids in this country to satisfy the labour market, then why does it matter if they're born here or somewhere else, in order to satisfy it? To be fair Cates is an Evangelical Christian and believes in Natalism so I doubt she had any racist meaning I watched the program today and it was quite refreshing. In the period after the Election people can be a bit more honest There was a female Conservative MP who made the obvious point if we want to reduce the number of immigrants working in Social Care then you have to pay a rate that UK people will work for. A lot was about the Conservative Leadership and the chap from a centre right think tank told Jenrick supporting MP his policies were bonkers. To be fair Steve Baker has been on a journey for some time but made the point that ECHR is integral to GFA which he came to fully understand as NI Minister and people need to be very careful in discussions about it. |
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 1, 2024 19:57:51 GMT
So to cut to the chase, is she saying, that we need more white people to have babies, so we don't need to import more brown people? If (as she claims), there aren't enough people having kids in this country to satisfy the labour market, then why does it matter if they're born here or somewhere else, in order to satisfy it? To be fair Cates is an Evangelical Christian and believes in Natalism so I doubt she had any racist meaning I watched the program today and it was quite refreshing. In the period after the Election people can be a bit more honest There was a female Conservative MP who made the obvious point if we want to reduce the number of immigrants working in Social Care then you have to pay a rate that UK people will work for. A lot was about the Conservative Leadership and the chap from a centre right think tank told Jenrick supporting MP his policies were bonkers. To be fair Steve Baker has been on a journey for some time but made the point that ECHR is integral to GFA which he came to fully understand as NI Minister and people need to be very careful in discussions about it. But it's the fundamental principal of having to stop immigration at all costs, by having more babies 'of our own'. If there aren't enough people here to service the jobs market (and she's correct in her assertion), why the clamour then for the UK to have more babies? It seems to me she's suggesting, solve the problem by having more UK babies = good, solve the problem with immigration = bad. |
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Post by wannabee on Oct 1, 2024 20:23:15 GMT
To be fair Cates is an Evangelical Christian and believes in Natalism so I doubt she had any racist meaning I watched the program today and it was quite refreshing. In the period after the Election people can be a bit more honest There was a female Conservative MP who made the obvious point if we want to reduce the number of immigrants working in Social Care then you have to pay a rate that UK people will work for. A lot was about the Conservative Leadership and the chap from a centre right think tank told Jenrick supporting MP his policies were bonkers. To be fair Steve Baker has been on a journey for some time but made the point that ECHR is integral to GFA which he came to fully understand as NI Minister and people need to be very careful in discussions about it. But it's the fundamental principal of having to stop immigration at all costs, by having more babies 'of our own'. If there aren't enough people here to service the jobs market (and she's correct in her assertion), why the clamour then for the UK to have more babies? It seems to me she's suggesting, solve the problem by having more UK babies = good, solve the problem with immigration = bad. On reflection you are probably right as she is virulently anti immigration and was on the lunatic right as part of the "New Conservatives" with Danny Kruger etc. I find a lot of Evangelicals hold rather strange Christian views generally. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 2, 2024 7:13:04 GMT
I think that would not necessarily be a bad thing if it forces Labour to recognise it can't win the next election unless it forms a centre/left alliance as a precursor to ditching FPTP. If the Tories and Reform were to carve up constituencies prior to the next election in a non aggression pact they'd almost certainly win the election under FPTP. The only chance for Labour to remain the biggest party would be to do the same but I'm not sure they would do that under Starmer who would just do what he did last time and try to shoehorn the electorate into accepting that despite the facade of being a democracy voting actually boils down to a binary choice. It would be both unfortunate and ironic if it's the Tories who actually break the mould. Interesting times. The vast majority of the British electorate is in the middle ground - the political centre, if you will. Whether those on either side of the political chasm choose to admit it or not, the British electorate will not elect Nigel Farage to be Prime Minister just as much as it will largely reject Michael Foot primarily because Britain generally does not really do extremes. The idea of the "electable right leaning government" in British political discourse does not include Nigel Farage. The "electable right wing" in British political history has never gone any further right than Margaret Thatcher. Whilst for some that was too far as it was, Thatcher was no Nigel Farage. Each time the Conservative Party has toyed with far right politics it has gotten absolutely hammered in subsequent General Elections. The idea of the "electable left leaning government" shares a similar pattern. Whenever Labour has toggled the centre ground it has gotten itself elected. The second it veers toward Corbyn or Foot, it's not taken that seriously by the British electorate by anyone outside of student politics or the far left and so Labour loses those elections with one notable exception - Attlee. Obviously, the case for Attlee is somewhat a unique and incomparable one. That is true. However if a right wing Tory leader were to conclude that they had lost the centre ground and therefore cannot beat Labour under FPTP the logical thing to do would be to form a non aggression pact with Reform and if Labour insists on going it alone (which I think they would under Starmer) the centre/left vote would be spilt and thete would be a landslide victory for the right wing Tory/Reform alliance. The only reason FPTP has ensured a moderate government is because Labour and the Tories have fought over the centre ground in a two horse race. The thing is you only need to win an election under FPTP with about 30% of the vote so a coalition of a minority group of parties on the left or right could easily win if they co-operate on (quite legally) gaming the voting system. If the Tories abandon the centre ground - which given the candidates is quite likely this could well happen. The range of political views out there can no longer be shoehorned into a two party system. Given the fragmentation FPTP is now a threat to moderate government and PR the way forward for anyone concerned about a drift to the political extremes. |
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 2, 2024 7:43:26 GMT
That sounds like it's from before labour came to power. When is it from? Yes it is mate but considering the figures that came out today he’s doing/done nothing about it Labour did not stand on a ticket where immigration was the top priority and they never promised to solve it within weeks of forming a government. Literally no-one obsessed with immigration being the country's no 1 problem voted Labour. So why should Starmer be taken to task for not doing something he never said he would do in the first place and nobody who voted for him expected him to do anyway? There are issues but the solutions are long term. It's only charlatans like Farage who claim there is quick fix. You are howling at the moon with this one. |
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Post by phileetin on Oct 2, 2024 8:51:49 GMT
anyone clocked that sperm donation fees have/are going up ?
Will this be available to the people being housed in hotels ?
i won't be able to call them w***kers though will i ?
Confused , you will be after this weeks episode of grope , i mean soap
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Post by elystokie on Oct 2, 2024 9:14:50 GMT
anyone clocked that sperm donation fees have/are going up ? Will this be available to the people being housed in hotels ? i won't be able to call them w***kers though will i ? Confused , you will be after this weeks episode of grope , i mean soap Are you having some sort of breakdown? |
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Post by phileetin on Oct 2, 2024 9:50:58 GMT
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Oct 2, 2024 13:56:51 GMT
I thought we saved the NHS by leaving the EU? So it's the fault of immigrants now? Got this funny feeling that your life is still going to be a bit shit even if net immigration does come down and I'm pretty sure some fuckwit will provide you with another scapegoat when your current simplistic all encompassing solution to lifes problems turns out to be a yetvanother complete red herring. |
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Post by elystokie on Oct 2, 2024 14:02:15 GMT
We should give thanks to the Liar King for those 40 extra hospitals he had built... |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 2, 2024 14:12:21 GMT
On 4 of the last 5 days no one has crossed the Channel in a small boat. On one day just 1 boat crossed, with 59 people on board. Whatever Sir Keir is doing, it seems to be working very well right now. We should direct our anger at the Tories, who have created and facilitated this situation. I suggest they are never again allowed anywhere near Downing Street. Mmm have you seen the weather in France & southern England over the last week. Do you not think that may have stopped the boats? Just for clarity so far, this year, just over 25000 people have crossed the channel by boat. Since labour won the election 3 months ago, over 10000 have made the crossing. Just saying. |
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Post by phileetin on Oct 2, 2024 14:14:28 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Oct 2, 2024 15:11:49 GMT
On 4 of the last 5 days no one has crossed the Channel in a small boat. On one day just 1 boat crossed, with 59 people on board. Whatever Sir Keir is doing, it seems to be working very well right now. We should direct our anger at the Tories, who have created and facilitated this situation. I suggest they are never again allowed anywhere near Downing Street. Mmm have you seen the weather in France & southern England over the last week. Do you not think that may have stopped the boats? Just for clarity so far, this year, just over 25000 people have crossed the channel by boat. Since labour won the election 3 months ago, over 10000 have made the crossing. Just saying. Aren't you contradicting your own argument there Leslie? Yes you're 100% correct, the majority of crossings are (obviously) not going to happen during the Winter but it's hardly Starmer's fault, that he won the election at the beginning of July is it? 😄 |
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Post by lawrieleslie on Oct 2, 2024 16:47:39 GMT
Mmm have you seen the weather in France & southern England over the last week. Do you not think that may have stopped the boats? Just for clarity so far, this year, just over 25000 people have crossed the channel by boat. Since labour won the election 3 months ago, over 10000 have made the crossing. Just saying. Aren't you contradicting your own argument there Leslie? Yes you're 100% correct, the majority of crossings are (obviously) not going to happen during the Winter but it's hardly Starmer's fault, that he won the election at the beginning of July is it? 😄 Paul I was putting into context the statement that whatever Starmer was doing is working based on boat crossing activity in the last week. |
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Post by 4372 on Oct 2, 2024 19:29:48 GMT
On 4 of the last 5 days no one has crossed the Channel in a small boat. On one day just 1 boat crossed, with 59 people on board. Whatever Sir Keir is doing, it seems to be working very well right now. We should direct our anger at the Tories, who have created and facilitated this situation. I suggest they are never again allowed anywhere near Downing Street. Mmm have you seen the weather in France & southern England over the last week. Do you not think that may have stopped the boats? Just for clarity so far, this year, just over 25000 people have crossed the channel by boat. Since labour won the election 3 months ago, over 10000 have made the crossing. Just saying. Just saying. There were 3/4 posts here in the weeks after Sir Keir and Labour won the Election. Those posts drew attention to days when small boat crossings peaked. There was no attempt by anyone to meteorologically contextualise those peaks. Why do I need to do this? All I read were hateful posts about the new government.I understand that some people do not like Labour and Sir Keir, that's all good. By the way, have you got any reliable, verifiable sources about the 10,000 immigrants since July. I'm not saying I doubt that figure, but all the figures I have seen are wrapped up in various right wing propaganda sheets. |
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Oct 6, 2024 11:13:20 GMT
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Oct 6, 2024 12:35:11 GMT
Presumably the sun has got his hat on over in the U.K. at the moment? |
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Post by phileetin on Oct 6, 2024 16:07:55 GMT
how many more 5* hotels willl these fill.
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Post by bigvern on Oct 6, 2024 16:37:41 GMT
If people are concerned/worried about immigration, what are they allowed to do without being called racist, far right and potentially getting sent down for 3 years?
Has immigration from the 3rd world made Britain better and safer?
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