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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 25, 2024 20:29:14 GMT
What is your solution to the problems of Uncontrolled immigration And The problems facing the NHS
Which problems are you specifically referring to BJR?
Perhaps I've used the wrong word for you Paul
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 25, 2024 20:40:00 GMT
Which problems are you specifically referring to BJR?
Perhaps I've used the wrong word Paul
I don't follow you, what question are you asking?
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Mar 25, 2024 20:40:45 GMT
Not again please 🤦🏻♂️
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 25, 2024 20:41:26 GMT
Perhaps I've used the wrong word Paul
I don't follow you, what question are you asking?
See the Badger above
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Mar 25, 2024 20:42:39 GMT
The new BBC report highlights the sleight of hand of deliberately focussing on migrants coming on boats, this has been going on for years. The boat people are not the issue here as some of us having been saying for years. Looking at the NHS figures, 143k new NHS workers brought 203k dependents. When they leave to go after higher salaries abroad I bet their "dependents" are still allowed to stay here, the figures suggest this is so. The problem is, we need workers because we continually allow millions already here to enjoy a benefits lifestyle where they don't need to work and don't see any point in doing so, because the government continually raises taxes, further eroding the gap between workers and shirkers. Bastards coming over here, trying to give us healthcare. Fucks sake. Yes they’re specifically coming over here to give us healthcare, that’s the important thing. Nothing to do with money and a better life as a stepping stone on the way to the high life. I don’t blame them of course. You would wouldn’t you
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 25, 2024 20:46:10 GMT
I don't follow you, what question are you asking?
See the Badger above
Is this some sort of cryptic game, or do you want to actually have a discussion about the question you posed?
Completely at a loss ...
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Post by wannabee on Mar 25, 2024 22:11:36 GMT
I practice or legally I don't see how this could happen Firstly if a Skilled Visa Worker has brought Dependents Wife/Children to UK and they leave to get a higher paid job e.g. for Nurses up to double the salary why on earth would they leave Wife/Children behind in UK Secondly if a Skilled Wirker resigns their position the Employer is obliged to inform Home Office What is your solution to the problems of Uncontrolled immigration And The problems facing the NHS Before I go off on a tangent for Uncontrolled Immigration do you mean Asylum Seekers without Visas or are you also including those that have entered legally On the NHS I'll intepret this to mean better outcomes and lower waiting lists etc The short answer to this is to fund the NHS in line with other Developed Countries we might consider peers, currently we are at a Median in OECD and you can see the Countries from the link the Countries we are above and below. As I said in my previous post a little bit of honesty would help in defining what the aspiration is. Of course if UK were to commit to a higher NHS Budget it would require higher taxes and to attract more and retention of staff it will require competitive salaries and conditions. If it is required to recruit from abroad it will require a commitment to build more housing. If we wish to train more UK Doctors and Nurses it will need to fund Universities. Nothing happens in isolation, what we have currently is what Central Government has planned but will claim otherwise. This is the dishonesty www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29#:~:text=The%20UK%20spent%20%C2%A3197,per%20person%20(Figure%201)
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 25, 2024 22:20:43 GMT
What is your solution to the problems of Uncontrolled immigration And The problems facing the NHS Before I go off on a tangent for Uncontrolled Immigration do you mean Asylum Seekers without Visas or are you also including those that have entered legally On the NHS I'll intepret this to mean better outcomes and lower waiting lists etc The short answer to this is to fund the NHS in line with other Developed Countries we might consider peers, currently we are at a Median in OECD and you can see the Countries from the link the Countries we are above and below. As I said in my previous post a little bit of honesty would help in defining what the aspiration is. Of course if UK were to commit to a higher NHS Budget it would require higher taxes and to attract more and retention of staff it will require competitive salaries and conditions. If it is required to recruit from abroad it will require a commitment to build more housing. If we wish to train more UK Doctors and Nurses it will need to fund Universities. Nothing happens in isolation, what we have currently is what Central Government has planned but will claim otherwise. This is the dishonesty www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29#:~:text=The%20UK%20spent%20%C2%A3197,per%20person%20(Figure%201) Re the NHS, do you think it is just a funding issue then? ( there is no hidden agenda here , I'm just interested in YOUR views in the NHS issues). Likewise , pick whatever aspect of " uncontrolled immigration " you like....you often analyse a problem or issue....I was simply wondering what your thoughts are on the issue....if indeed you think there is an issue/ problem....as I say , by all means outline/ choose the " problem " yourself
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Post by wannabee on Mar 25, 2024 23:50:06 GMT
Before I go off on a tangent for Uncontrolled Immigration do you mean Asylum Seekers without Visas or are you also including those that have entered legally On the NHS I'll intepret this to mean better outcomes and lower waiting lists etc The short answer to this is to fund the NHS in line with other Developed Countries we might consider peers, currently we are at a Median in OECD and you can see the Countries from the link the Countries we are above and below. As I said in my previous post a little bit of honesty would help in defining what the aspiration is. Of course if UK were to commit to a higher NHS Budget it would require higher taxes and to attract more and retention of staff it will require competitive salaries and conditions. If it is required to recruit from abroad it will require a commitment to build more housing. If we wish to train more UK Doctors and Nurses it will need to fund Universities. Nothing happens in isolation, what we have currently is what Central Government has planned but will claim otherwise. This is the dishonesty www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/healthcaresystem/articles/howdoesukhealthcarespendingcomparewithothercountries/2019-08-29#:~:text=The%20UK%20spent%20%C2%A3197,per%20person%20(Figure%201) Re the NHS, do you think it is just a funding issue then? ( there is no hidden agenda here , I'm just interested in YOUR views in the NHS issues). Likewise , pick whatever aspect of " uncontrolled immigration " you like....you often analyse a problem or issue....I was simply wondering what your thoughts are on the issue....if indeed you think there is an issue/ problem....as I say , by all means outline/ choose the " problem " yourself No of course its not just funding Big John it's also how efficiently that funding is spent, but it is ludicrous to expect continuous above average outcomes compared to the input. It is a feature of the British Psyche to prevail against the odds, the Bulldog Spirit if you like. But when applied to the real world over time it just doesn't work. I'll take Uncontrolled Immigration as being those that entered UK being Asylum Seekers who entered UK without a Visa by whatever means At the end of December 2023 there were 128K awaiting first decision of which 36K arrived in 2023. There are only 1364 Asylum Seekers who failed asylum application and are currently in detention centres. About 90% of failed Asylum Seekers are given leave to remain the rest get "lost" by Home Office It apparently costs £8M a Day / £3Bn annually to house those 128K waiting Asylum decision. If processed either approved or leave to remain that support/cost stops after 21 days To stop immigrants not invited you need to address the Pull and Push factors Spending £500M to deport 300 unprocessed Asylum Seekers to Rwanda does not address the pull factor Now to address what I would do to eliminate/reduce the pull factor. The first obvious answer is to efficiently process Asylum Claims. It may be desirable not to have any but in the real World they exist. If an Asylum Seeker is processed and deemed legitimate and given Refugee Status they are no longer entitled to State funded accommodation but are entitled to work and pay taxes. Of course they can apply for minimum benefits but the incentive is to become financially independent of the State. For those that fail Asylum application which are essentially Economic Migrants this poses the real dilemma. It's not possible to return them to France from where they may have come from. It is equally not possible to return them to Afghanistan/Iran/Eritrea etc. But it doesn't place a legal obligation on UK to accept them indefinitely. I've already outlined the annual spend on Temporary Accomodation to fulfil a legal International obligation and a flawed Rwanda solution. As a condemned Lefty on this MB I see no particular problem in building detention centres for failed Asylum Seekers to eliminate the pull factor. What portion of that annual spend would it cost to build a facility(s) to house say 3000 by 10 failed Asylum Seekers which would be 100 times more than Rwanda can accommodate. The biggest obstacle would be NIMBY's and the Planning Process. If implemented over a relatively short period of time those Asylum Seekers would just stop applying Quite a while ago I wrote a lengthy post on how Germany eliminated the problem of Economic Migrants from Albania back in 2015. Guess what some time later UK Government implemented a similar arrangement. I'm not suggesting for one second that I was instrumental but to each problem or sometimes opportunity there is a logical solution. That solution may well be apparent to Government but may not be Politically expedient to implement
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 26, 2024 0:06:43 GMT
Bastards coming over here, trying to give us healthcare. Fucks sake. Yes they’re specifically coming over here to give us healthcare, that’s the important thing. Nothing to do with money and a better life as a stepping stone on the way to the high life. I don’t blame them of course. You would wouldn’t you
You are much more likely to be treated by an immigrant in the NHS, than you are to find yourself in the queue behind one.
The NHS would completely collapse if we didn't have significant immigration.
How many health care workers are living 'the high life' be they immigrants or not?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 26, 2024 0:11:56 GMT
Re the NHS, do you think it is just a funding issue then? ( there is no hidden agenda here , I'm just interested in YOUR views in the NHS issues). Likewise , pick whatever aspect of " uncontrolled immigration " you like....you often analyse a problem or issue....I was simply wondering what your thoughts are on the issue....if indeed you think there is an issue/ problem....as I say , by all means outline/ choose the " problem " yourself No of course its not just funding Big John it's also how efficiently that funding is spent, but it is ludicrous to expect continuous above average outcomes compared to the input. It is a feature of the British Psyche to prevail against the odds, the Bulldog Spirit if you like. But when applied to the real world over time it just doesn't work. I'll take Uncontrolled Immigration as being those that entered UK being Asylum Seekers who entered UK without a Visa by whatever means At the end of December 2023 there were 128K awaiting first decision of which 36K arrived in 2023. There are only 1364 Asylum Seekers who failed asylum application and are currently in detention centres. About 90% of failed Asylum Seekers are given leave to remain the rest get "lost" by Home Office It apparently costs £8M a Day / £3Bn annually to house those 128K waiting Asylum decision. If processed either approved or leave to remain that support/cost stops after 21 days To stop immigrants not invited you need to address the Pull and Push factors Spending £500M to deport 300 unprocessed Asylum Seekers to Rwanda does not address the pull factor Now to address what I would do to eliminate/reduce the pull factor. The first obvious answer is to efficiently process Asylum Claims. It may be desirable not to have any but in the real World they exist. If an Asylum Seeker is processed and deemed legitimate and given Refugee Status they are no longer entitled to State funded accommodation but are entitled to work and pay taxes. Of course they can apply for minimum benefits but the incentive is to become financially independent of the State. For those that fail Asylum application which are essentially Economic Migrants this poses the real dilemma. It's not possible to return them to France from where they may have come from. It is equally not possible to return them to Afghanistan/Iran/Eritrea etc. But it doesn't place a legal obligation on UK to accept them indefinitely. I've already outlined the annual spend on Temporary Accomodation to fulfil a legal International obligation and a flawed Rwanda solution. As a condemned Lefty on this MB I see no particular problem in building detention centres for failed Asylum Seekers to eliminate the pull factor. What portion of that annual spend would it cost to build a facility(s) to house say 3000 by 10 failed Asylum Seekers which would be 100 times more than Rwanda can accommodate. The biggest obstacle would be NIMBY's and the Planning Process. If implemented over a relatively short period of time those Asylum Seekers would just stop applying Quite a while ago I wrote a lengthy post on how Germany eliminated the problem of Economic Migrants from Albania back in 2015. Guess what some time later UK Government implemented a similar arrangement. I'm not suggesting for one second that I was instrumental but to each problem or sometimes opportunity there is a logical solution. That solution may well be apparent to Government but may not be Politically expedient to implement Thanks for your full reply Wannabee, I'll give it more thought tomorrow....but isn't a good part of the " problem"( FOR THH WANT OF A BETTER WORD) that the NHS cannot possibly deliver what was promised in 1946. The population has grown substantially, people are living longer, science has advanced so much that " we" can do an incredible amount in comparison to the immediate post war period, in absolutely every area of health and what now encompasses " health" ( eg , well being, mental health etc) has expanded so much that the reality is that we cannot afford to deliver EVERYTHING , free at the point of delivery..... but no politician will face that issue.... because to scrutinise the principle is blasphemous. ( and I don't think the answer is " the money is there really"....it's the capitalists.....not in this case, pragmatically as long as we havea capatist society.... although course this will be the first easy ( pragmatically impractical) target)
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Post by wannabee on Mar 26, 2024 0:39:45 GMT
No of course its not just funding Big John it's also how efficiently that funding is spent, but it is ludicrous to expect continuous above average outcomes compared to the input. It is a feature of the British Psyche to prevail against the odds, the Bulldog Spirit if you like. But when applied to the real world over time it just doesn't work. I'll take Uncontrolled Immigration as being those that entered UK being Asylum Seekers who entered UK without a Visa by whatever means At the end of December 2023 there were 128K awaiting first decision of which 36K arrived in 2023. There are only 1364 Asylum Seekers who failed asylum application and are currently in detention centres. About 90% of failed Asylum Seekers are given leave to remain the rest get "lost" by Home Office It apparently costs £8M a Day / £3Bn annually to house those 128K waiting Asylum decision. If processed either approved or leave to remain that support/cost stops after 21 days To stop immigrants not invited you need to address the Pull and Push factors Spending £500M to deport 300 unprocessed Asylum Seekers to Rwanda does not address the pull factor Now to address what I would do to eliminate/reduce the pull factor. The first obvious answer is to efficiently process Asylum Claims. It may be desirable not to have any but in the real World they exist. If an Asylum Seeker is processed and deemed legitimate and given Refugee Status they are no longer entitled to State funded accommodation but are entitled to work and pay taxes. Of course they can apply for minimum benefits but the incentive is to become financially independent of the State. For those that fail Asylum application which are essentially Economic Migrants this poses the real dilemma. It's not possible to return them to France from where they may have come from. It is equally not possible to return them to Afghanistan/Iran/Eritrea etc. But it doesn't place a legal obligation on UK to accept them indefinitely. I've already outlined the annual spend on Temporary Accomodation to fulfil a legal International obligation and a flawed Rwanda solution. As a condemned Lefty on this MB I see no particular problem in building detention centres for failed Asylum Seekers to eliminate the pull factor. What portion of that annual spend would it cost to build a facility(s) to house say 3000 by 10 failed Asylum Seekers which would be 100 times more than Rwanda can accommodate. The biggest obstacle would be NIMBY's and the Planning Process. If implemented over a relatively short period of time those Asylum Seekers would just stop applying Quite a while ago I wrote a lengthy post on how Germany eliminated the problem of Economic Migrants from Albania back in 2015. Guess what some time later UK Government implemented a similar arrangement. I'm not suggesting for one second that I was instrumental but to each problem or sometimes opportunity there is a logical solution. That solution may well be apparent to Government but may not be Politically expedient to implement Thanks for your full reply Wannabee, I'll give it more thought tomorrow....but isn't a good part of the " problem"( FOR THH WANT OF A BETTER WORD) that the NHS cannot possibly deliver what was promised in 1946. The population has grown substantially, people are living longer, science has advanced so much that " we" can do an incredible amount in comparison to the immediate post war period, in absolutely every area of health and what now encompasses " health" ( eg , well being, mental health etc) has expanded so much that the reality is that we cannot afford to deliver EVERYTHING , free at the point of delivery..... but no politician will face that issue.... because to scrutinise the principle is blasphemous. ( and I don't think the answer is " the money is there really"....it's the capitalists.....not in this case, pragmatically as long as we havea capatist society.... although course this will be the first easy ( pragmatically impractical) target) Not that I expected you would start searching what I referenced but this is what I posted on this thread about the solution to Albanian Economic Migrants before this Government got off their arse and have been dining out on their brilliance ever since I tend to only dip in and out of this thread as it's often toxic
Nov 2, 2022 at 11:10pm
It's a pity you ( and our Government) are unwilling to learn the lessons from other Countries although I respect your reasons for not entering a Dick measuring contest.
Some years ago Germany experienced the same issue with Albanians and passed legislation which declared Albania a "Safe Country" which revoked most of the reasons Albanians could claim Asylum and they were simply returned
Despite spurious spouting by a multitude of Conservative Politicians that UK is and has always been a welcoming Country to Asylum Seekers the Nationalities and Borders Act is in complete contradiction of this and in contravention of the 1951 Convention What's next complete withdrawal from the ECHR to join Russia and Belarus as the only ones outside?
The Home Office is dysfunctional and has been for many years. No refugee from Syria, Afghanistan etc is going to be returned to those Countries irrespective of their status which in any case almost 100% are granted Asylum Status. Why clogg up the whole system by professing these people in places like Manston and why in the Fuck does it take on average a year and a half to process a claim and this is before so called "lefty lawers" begin appeals
Cruella did say one true thing "The System is Broken" but the Conservative Government broke it and its not that difficult to fix it but definitely not by Cruella and not by sending a token number of people to Rwanda if it ever begins never mind that it may
Nov 6, 2022 at 10:16pm OldStokie and prestwichpotter like thisQuoteEditlikedislikePost OptionsPost by wannabee on Nov 6, 2022 at 10:16pm
It's unhelpful in this debate to use incorrect pejorative terms to describe people. There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant no matter how they entered the Country but there are Asylum Seekers requesting Refugee Status.
At the core of the problem is a Home Office that has been dysfunctional for many years and operates in a state of Permacrisis without any rational plan.
In a hospital medical setting a system of triage is used to allocate resources to the most urgent cases
UK is not, unless under very rare circumstances, going to deport people back to Syria, Afghanistan, Iran etc so why keep spinning wheels and devote as much time to these people as of other Nationals At the earliest opportunity place these people in suitable accommodation depending on there family unit and when it comes to Unaccompanied Children ensure safeguarding protocols and educational and mental health support
The current crisis is Adult Male Albanians and I agree its a problem With apologies to Badger I'm going to introduce some Stats. 86% of Albanian women and Children who present for Asylum are granted that Status so again using the fast track system assume those who present as such are going to be granted Asylum and settle in similar accommodation
That leaves the remainder of Male Albanians 14% are granted Asylum Seekers and others who deliberately or unfortunately have no documentation to support who they are.
In 9 Days during Covid Pandemic UK built a Nightingale Hospital (never used) capable of housing 4000 people If this type of facility was good enough to look after 4000 sick British people it should be good enough to temporarily house with modification for cooking leisure areas etc. for these people seeking Asylum while there claim is being processed Build 1 or 2 A disused Aerodrome would seem an option At the same time Home Office hire hundreds of temporary staff to be on site at these facilities to conduct and document the initial interview with prospective Asylum Seeker. Subsequently an experienced Home Office Officer can then make an follow up review. If during interview an Asylum Seeker is not being cooperative and forthcoming with information and obviously reliable translators are on hand during the Interview, to use the vernacular "Fuck them Off" The Albanian Government itself appears willing to cooperate with UK Despatch a dozen or so or whatever number required to work alongside Albanian Agencies to verify what has been said during the interview process using access to their data bases being careful not to compromise any genuine Asylum Seekers and there are some. Using this streamlined method most of the Economic Migrants can be weeded out from genuine Asylum Seekers Whether I agree or not whether UK should welcome Economic Migrants is irrelevent If the UK Government is against such a Policy its entirely within their domain
The problem with Career Politicians is they have very little real world experience of agile problem solving They are too focused on the image they portray which will get them elected at the next election Taking Back Control as it currently exists is a shambles I wouldn't trust Suella Braverman to take control of a Poodle, she is seriously out of her depth and her rhetoric is dangerous
Edit: By the way if anyone is under an illusion that Asylum Seekers can claim Benefits, they can't They receive £40.85 per week to cover food, clothing, toiletries etc
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Post by wannabee on Mar 26, 2024 4:36:02 GMT
No of course its not just funding Big John it's also how efficiently that funding is spent, but it is ludicrous to expect continuous above average outcomes compared to the input. It is a feature of the British Psyche to prevail against the odds, the Bulldog Spirit if you like. But when applied to the real world over time it just doesn't work. I'll take Uncontrolled Immigration as being those that entered UK being Asylum Seekers who entered UK without a Visa by whatever means At the end of December 2023 there were 128K awaiting first decision of which 36K arrived in 2023. There are only 1364 Asylum Seekers who failed asylum application and are currently in detention centres. About 90% of failed Asylum Seekers are given leave to remain the rest get "lost" by Home Office It apparently costs £8M a Day / £3Bn annually to house those 128K waiting Asylum decision. If processed either approved or leave to remain that support/cost stops after 21 days To stop immigrants not invited you need to address the Pull and Push factors Spending £500M to deport 300 unprocessed Asylum Seekers to Rwanda does not address the pull factor Now to address what I would do to eliminate/reduce the pull factor. The first obvious answer is to efficiently process Asylum Claims. It may be desirable not to have any but in the real World they exist. If an Asylum Seeker is processed and deemed legitimate and given Refugee Status they are no longer entitled to State funded accommodation but are entitled to work and pay taxes. Of course they can apply for minimum benefits but the incentive is to become financially independent of the State. For those that fail Asylum application which are essentially Economic Migrants this poses the real dilemma. It's not possible to return them to France from where they may have come from. It is equally not possible to return them to Afghanistan/Iran/Eritrea etc. But it doesn't place a legal obligation on UK to accept them indefinitely. I've already outlined the annual spend on Temporary Accomodation to fulfil a legal International obligation and a flawed Rwanda solution. As a condemned Lefty on this MB I see no particular problem in building detention centres for failed Asylum Seekers to eliminate the pull factor. What portion of that annual spend would it cost to build a facility(s) to house say 3000 by 10 failed Asylum Seekers which would be 100 times more than Rwanda can accommodate. The biggest obstacle would be NIMBY's and the Planning Process. If implemented over a relatively short period of time those Asylum Seekers would just stop applying Quite a while ago I wrote a lengthy post on how Germany eliminated the problem of Economic Migrants from Albania back in 2015. Guess what some time later UK Government implemented a similar arrangement. I'm not suggesting for one second that I was instrumental but to each problem or sometimes opportunity there is a logical solution. That solution may well be apparent to Government but may not be Politically expedient to implement Thanks for your full reply Wannabee, I'll give it more thought tomorrow....but isn't a good part of the " problem"( FOR THH WANT OF A BETTER WORD) that the NHS cannot possibly deliver what was promised in 1946. The population has grown substantially, people are living longer, science has advanced so much that " we" can do an incredible amount in comparison to the immediate post war period, in absolutely every area of health and what now encompasses " health" ( eg , well being, mental health etc) has expanded so much that the reality is that we cannot afford to deliver EVERYTHING , free at the point of delivery..... but no politician will face that issue.... because to scrutinise the principle is blasphemous. ( and I don't think the answer is " the money is there really"....it's the capitalists.....not in this case, pragmatically as long as we havea capatist society.... although course this will be the first easy ( pragmatically impractical) target) The promise in 1946 which came into effect under the The National Health Service Act in1948 provided for the establishment of a comprehensive health service The Act stated that it shall be the duty of the Minister of Health to promote the establishment of a health service to secure improvement in the physical and mental health of the people and the prevention, diagnosis and treatment of illness. It is massively misunderstood the difference between a Free Healthcare Service and a Universal Healthcare Service
Free Healthcare means that all citizens receive health care without having to pay for services. *Universal Healthcare means there is a health care system that provides coverage to a high percentage of citizens.
The UK has a Universal national health service with access based on clinical need, and not ability to pay. All individuals, irrespective of their nationality or immigration status, are eligible to access primary, emergency and compulsory psychiatric care, free of charge In short this means that any individual who presents to NHS is deemed unable to pay for Private Medical assistance and irrespective of status will be treated in priority of Medical need.
As our American Cousins are fond of quoting vis a vis the founding Fathers regarding their Constitution so too did Aneurin Bevan the founding Father of the NHS didn't place any restrictions on the PRINCIPAL of the NHS in regards to Population
If latter day incumbents of the Office of Minister of Health wish to qualify Aneurin Bevan's Principal so be it, but none have so far had the courage to do so.
* It always amuses me somewhat when people get huffy about Private Medical Care when it was always envisaged by Aneurin Bevan that those that could afford to pay for Medical care would do so.
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Post by foster on Mar 26, 2024 5:58:34 GMT
Yes they’re specifically coming over here to give us healthcare, that’s the important thing. Nothing to do with money and a better life as a stepping stone on the way to the high life. I don’t blame them of course. You would wouldn’t you You are much more likely to be treated by an immigrant in the NHS, than you are to find yourself in the queue behind one. The NHS would completely collapse if we didn't have significant immigration. How many health care workers are living 'the high life' be they immigrants or not?
I don't really get why British people can't do the low paid jobs that immigrants are coming over here for. Not that i care who does them, but shouldn't the minimum wage be sufficient for anyone who's unemployed. As for skilled workers, don't we have shitloads of people going to Uni now? Where are the skilled natives? Aren't there enough unemployed Brits to take on a lot of these jobs that immigrants are doing? Or is it a case that there are too many Brits think they're above these low paid jobs? I guess it's a combination.
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Post by cvillestokie on Mar 26, 2024 6:56:52 GMT
You are much more likely to be treated by an immigrant in the NHS, than you are to find yourself in the queue behind one. The NHS would completely collapse if we didn't have significant immigration. How many health care workers are living 'the high life' be they immigrants or not?
I don't really get why British people can't do the low paid jobs that immigrants are coming over here for. Not that i care who does them, but shouldn't the minimum wage be sufficient for anyone who's unemployed. As for skilled workers, don't we have shitloads of people going to Uni now? Where are the skilled natives? Aren't there enough unemployed Brits to take on a lot of these jobs that immigrants are doing? Or is it a case that there are too many Brits think they're above these low paid jobs? I guess it's a combination. I imagine that a lot of skilled natives sod off to new countries to find better pay. Why do the same job for less money etc? No one owes anyone anything. As for low paid jobs, isn’t the weekly salary for JSA something like £86 (or £2.15 an hour)? That’s about a fifth of the minimum wage for April 2024 for individuals 21 and over. I don’t see the argument that people able to survive on JSA couldn’t survive on 5x more than it. So, surely they’d be taking those jobs if they could? Perhaps employers post them to make them look like a growing business (or in the hopes that an immigrant will apply who feels less safe in their employment rights and who are more easily screwed).
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Mar 26, 2024 7:44:21 GMT
You are much more likely to be treated by an immigrant in the NHS, than you are to find yourself in the queue behind one. The NHS would completely collapse if we didn't have significant immigration. How many health care workers are living 'the high life' be they immigrants or not?
I don't really get why British people can't do the low paid jobs that immigrants are coming over here for. Not that i care who does them, but shouldn't the minimum wage be sufficient for anyone who's unemployed. As for skilled workers, don't we have shitloads of people going to Uni now? Where are the skilled natives? Aren't there enough unemployed Brits to take on a lot of these jobs that immigrants are doing? Or is it a case that there are too many Brits think they're above these low paid jobs? I guess it's a combination. The fact is they don't want to do those jobs so how the hell do you get them to do it? Conscription? And who the hell wants to be looked after by a conscripted nurse who is crap at the job and doesn't want to be there? Personally I'd rather be treated by an immigrant who wants to be there and knows what they are doing. The problem with the British education system is it's too heavily weighted towards academic skills and there isn't enough investment in practical skills. A big reason for immigration is that we don't invest enough in vocational education. The minimum wage is just barely enough to get by. It's farcical to have skilled work paid at that level. We deliberately run a low wage economy in order to keep the filthy rich filthy rich. We need to incentivise work and that means raising wages and addressing inequality. The Tories are full of shit when it comes to immigration. Their economic model is to run a low wage economy with minimal investment in educating it's own people. Flooding the market with skilled workers from overseas who will work for a pittance is central to that policy. Anyone who believes the Tories have any interest in actually addressing immigration is just being taken for a ride. Their policies have caused high immigration and they are covering up what they are doing by playing to the crowd.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 26, 2024 9:00:10 GMT
You are much more likely to be treated by an immigrant in the NHS, than you are to find yourself in the queue behind one. The NHS would completely collapse if we didn't have significant immigration. How many health care workers are living 'the high life' be they immigrants or not?
I don't really get why British people can't do the low paid jobs that immigrants are coming over here for. Not that i care who does them, but shouldn't the minimum wage be sufficient for anyone who's unemployed. As for skilled workers, don't we have shitloads of people going to Uni now? Where are the skilled natives? Aren't there enough unemployed Brits to take on a lot of these jobs that immigrants are doing? Or is it a case that there are too many Brits think they're above these low paid jobs? I guess it's a combination.
It will be difficult for me to add anything else to the couple of excellent answers above.
All I will say, is that as we stand currently, immigration is a good thing for the UK.
We need immigrants to keep to keep many businesses and services afloat and we need immigrants to contribute to our ever increasing tax burden, who without, our taxes would have to rise significantly and our pensions would take a massive hit, indeed immigration actually fuels the economy, there are study after study that proves as much.
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Post by foster on Mar 26, 2024 10:29:54 GMT
I don't really get why British people can't do the low paid jobs that immigrants are coming over here for. Not that i care who does them, but shouldn't the minimum wage be sufficient for anyone who's unemployed. As for skilled workers, don't we have shitloads of people going to Uni now? Where are the skilled natives? Aren't there enough unemployed Brits to take on a lot of these jobs that immigrants are doing? Or is it a case that there are too many Brits think they're above these low paid jobs? I guess it's a combination. The fact is they don't want to do those jobs so how the hell do you get them to do it? Conscription? And who the hell wants to be looked after by a conscripted nurse who is crap at the job and doesn't want to be there? Personally I'd rather be treated by an immigrant who wants to be there and knows what they are doing. The problem with the British education system is it's too heavily weighted towards academic skills and there isn't enough investment in practical skills. A big reason for immigration is that we don't invest enough in vocational education. The minimum wage is just barely enough to get by. It's farcical to have skilled work paid at that level. We deliberately run a low wage economy in order to keep the filthy rich filthy rich. We need to incentivise work and that means raising wages and addressing inequality. The Tories are full of shit when it comes to immigration. Their economic model is to run a low wage economy with minimal investment in educating it's own people. Flooding the market with skilled workers from overseas who will work for a pittance is central to that policy. Anyone who believes the Tories have any interest in actually addressing immigration is just being taken for a ride. Their policies have caused high immigration and they are covering up what they are doing by playing to the crowd. I'm not having a go at immigrants here mate. I agree with you. My point is really about the UK putting itself in this situation by not offering enough or not having in place policies to get more people into work. I guess its more of a governmental issue that I'm getting at. We have people not working that could (if they wanted) get trained to do these jobs. Why is there the acceptance that Brits can sit on their arse all day scrounging off benefits (not all obviously) whilst at the same time we bring in foreigners as an excuse for lazy natives. I'm really talking low skilled jobs here, not specialist highly educated individuals. Wasn't part of Brexit (which I was against by the way) part of giving Brits more jobs and only bringing in those with specific skillsets. I'm just a little uncomfortable with this reliance on immigrants when really it might not be needed if natives got their fingers out of their arses and worked for a living. Like the majority of us do. If I were put out of work I'd pretty much take anything just to have some income. Maybe benefits need to be looked at, as well as the minimum wage.
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Post by Eggybread on Mar 26, 2024 10:32:52 GMT
You are much more likely to be treated by an immigrant in the NHS, than you are to find yourself in the queue behind one. The NHS would completely collapse if we didn't have significant immigration. How many health care workers are living 'the high life' be they immigrants or not?
I don't really get why British people can't do the low paid jobs that immigrants are coming over here for. Not that i care who does them, but shouldn't the minimum wage be sufficient for anyone who's unemployed. As for skilled workers, don't we have shitloads of people going to Uni now? Where are the skilled natives? Aren't there enough unemployed Brits to take on a lot of these jobs that immigrants are doing? Or is it a case that there are too many Brits think they're above these low paid jobs? I guess it's a combination. The answer is no to everything. British people can't do the low paid jobs that immigrants are coming over here for.=Migrant workers gernerally all live together and chip in for overheards=Brits dont. shouldn't the minimum wage be sufficient for anyone who's unemployed = It should but isnt. shitloads of people going to Uni now=Doubt they are going to uni to study potato picking,and I dont know many potato fields near unis. Aren't there enough unemployed Brits to take on a lot of these jobs that immigrants are doing? Or is it a case that there are too many Brits think they're above these low paid jobs?= Back to second sentance. The country has always relied on immigrants we have either used them, enslaved them, stole all their lands and wealth, ferried them into the UK when in need and people dont undertsand why we need them? Plus for an economy to grow it needs more people thats capitalism and therefore we need more immigrants.
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Post by foster on Mar 26, 2024 10:34:52 GMT
I don't really get why British people can't do the low paid jobs that immigrants are coming over here for. Not that i care who does them, but shouldn't the minimum wage be sufficient for anyone who's unemployed. As for skilled workers, don't we have shitloads of people going to Uni now? Where are the skilled natives? Aren't there enough unemployed Brits to take on a lot of these jobs that immigrants are doing? Or is it a case that there are too many Brits think they're above these low paid jobs? I guess it's a combination. It will be difficult for me to add anything else to the couple of excellent answers above.
All I will say, is that as we stand currently, immigration is a good thing for the UK. We need immigrants to keep to keep many businesses and services afloat and we need immigrants to contribute to our ever increasing tax burden, who without, our taxes would have to rise significantly and our pensions would take a massive hit, indeed immigration actually fuels the economy, there are study after study that proves as much.
I'm kind of of the mindset that immigration is a good thing only because Brits can afford not to work, train, educate themselves, and do these jobs themselves. Again, I'm talking specifically about low skilled jobs and what the government said would (which didn't) happen. Endless immigration to fund pensions isn't sustainable either. The government needs to find another solution rather than continuing to palm it off every 4 years.
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Post by foster on Mar 26, 2024 10:36:54 GMT
I don't really get why British people can't do the low paid jobs that immigrants are coming over here for. Not that i care who does them, but shouldn't the minimum wage be sufficient for anyone who's unemployed. As for skilled workers, don't we have shitloads of people going to Uni now? Where are the skilled natives? Aren't there enough unemployed Brits to take on a lot of these jobs that immigrants are doing? Or is it a case that there are too many Brits think they're above these low paid jobs? I guess it's a combination. The answer is no to everything. British people can't do the low paid jobs that immigrants are coming over here for.=Migrant workers gernerally all live together and chip in for overheards=Brits dont. shouldn't the minimum wage be sufficient for anyone who's unemployed = It should but isnt. shitloads of people going to Uni now=Doubt they are going to uni to study potato picking,and I dont know many potato fields near unis. Aren't there enough unemployed Brits to take on a lot of these jobs that immigrants are doing? Or is it a case that there are too many Brits think they're above these low paid jobs?= Back to second sentance. The country has always relied on immigrants we have either used them, enslaved them, stole all their lands and wealth ferried them into the UK when in need and people dont undertsand?? So basically, the minimum wage, combined with increased living costs isn't sufficient. So that may be the issue, more than just accepting that immigration is a necessity. It's more a problem of our own making?
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Post by Eggybread on Mar 26, 2024 10:38:13 GMT
The answer is no to everything. British people can't do the low paid jobs that immigrants are coming over here for.=Migrant workers gernerally all live together and chip in for overheards=Brits dont. shouldn't the minimum wage be sufficient for anyone who's unemployed = It should but isnt. shitloads of people going to Uni now=Doubt they are going to uni to study potato picking,and I dont know many potato fields near unis. Aren't there enough unemployed Brits to take on a lot of these jobs that immigrants are doing? Or is it a case that there are too many Brits think they're above these low paid jobs?= Back to second sentance. The country has always relied on immigrants we have either used them, enslaved them, stole all their lands and wealth ferried them into the UK when in need and people dont undertsand?? So basically, the minimum wage, combined with increased living costs isn't sufficient. So that may be the issue, more than just accepting that immigration is a necessity. It's more a problem of our own making? We as a country have always relied on immigrants to perform certain rolls in our society
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Post by foster on Mar 26, 2024 10:41:43 GMT
So basically, the minimum wage, combined with increased living costs isn't sufficient. So that may be the issue, more than just accepting that immigration is a necessity. It's more a problem of our own making? We as a country have always relied on immigrants to perform certain rolls in our society Isn't that really just a lesser form of slavery though? We bring in less worthy people to do shit work that we can't be bothered to do? Everyone should be willing to work in whatever capacity is available imo. If the terms aren't good enough then the government should do something about it.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Mar 26, 2024 10:43:10 GMT
It will be difficult for me to add anything else to the couple of excellent answers above.
All I will say, is that as we stand currently, immigration is a good thing for the UK. We need immigrants to keep to keep many businesses and services afloat and we need immigrants to contribute to our ever increasing tax burden, who without, our taxes would have to rise significantly and our pensions would take a massive hit, indeed immigration actually fuels the economy, there are study after study that proves as much.
I'm kind of of the mindset that immigration is a good thing only because Brits can afford not to work, train, educate themselves, and do these jobs themselves. Again, I'm talking specifically about low skilled jobs and what the government said would (which didn't) happen. Endless immigration to fund pensions isn't sustainable either. The government needs to find another solution rather than continuing to palm it off every 4 years. Mate we currently have the lowest birth rate since records began in the 30's and currently, 23% of the population are pensioners, the highest ever. Not having immigration is what's unsustainable. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/23/birthrate-in-uk-falls-to-record-low-as-campaigners-say-procreation-is-a-luxury"Official figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed “total fertility”, calculated based on the birthrate across different age groups, fell to 1.49 children per woman in 2022. That is well below the rate of 2.1 needed to maintain a steady population without significant immigration. In total, there were 605,479 live births in 2022, according to the ONS, down 3.1% from a year earlier, and the lowest number since 2002. Falling birthrates since 2010 have already prompted schools closures in many areas in recent years, including central London. We need the babies who are born now, because they will be the people whose taxes pay for our healthcare. These will be the people looking after us in our old age."
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Post by foster on Mar 26, 2024 10:51:17 GMT
I'm kind of of the mindset that immigration is a good thing only because Brits can afford not to work, train, educate themselves, and do these jobs themselves. Again, I'm talking specifically about low skilled jobs and what the government said would (which didn't) happen. Endless immigration to fund pensions isn't sustainable either. The government needs to find another solution rather than continuing to palm it off every 4 years. Mate we currently have the lowest birth rate since records began in the 30's and 23% of the population are pensioners, the highest ever. Not having immigration is what's unsustainable. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/23/birthrate-in-uk-falls-to-record-low-as-campaigners-say-procreation-is-a-luxuryOfficial figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed “total fertility”, calculated based on the birthrate across different age groups, fell to 1.49 children per woman in 2022. That is well below the rate of 2.1 needed to maintain a steady population without significant immigration. In total, there were 605,479 live births in 2022, according to the ONS, down 3.1% from a year earlier, and the lowest number since 2002. Falling birthrates since 2010 have already prompted schools closures in many areas in recent years, including central London. We need the babies who are born now, because they will be the people whose taxes pay for our healthcare. These will be the people looking after us in our old age. These will be the doctors and nurses and care workers of the future.” I get that mate, but the birthrate also needs to decline as there are just too many people for the planet as a whole to sustain. I really don't know what the solution is as it's much more complicated than I'm willing to research or spend my time writing about, but my personal view is that we need less people on the planet and a more sustainable way of living. We can't keep exponentially increasing the population just to cater for the previous generation. Pensions reform perhaps? I'm asking a lot of question but I don't know the answers. For me, I think people in general should be content with less and be more supportive of their communities. But now I'm moving into areas I have limited knowledge of Maybe I'm too simplistic in my thinking. I wouldn't mind a big reset to be honest. Living off our own resources and not relying on others.
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Post by cvillestokie on Mar 26, 2024 11:28:57 GMT
Mate we currently have the lowest birth rate since records began in the 30's and 23% of the population are pensioners, the highest ever. Not having immigration is what's unsustainable. www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/23/birthrate-in-uk-falls-to-record-low-as-campaigners-say-procreation-is-a-luxuryOfficial figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS) showed “total fertility”, calculated based on the birthrate across different age groups, fell to 1.49 children per woman in 2022. That is well below the rate of 2.1 needed to maintain a steady population without significant immigration. In total, there were 605,479 live births in 2022, according to the ONS, down 3.1% from a year earlier, and the lowest number since 2002. Falling birthrates since 2010 have already prompted schools closures in many areas in recent years, including central London. We need the babies who are born now, because they will be the people whose taxes pay for our healthcare. These will be the people looking after us in our old age. These will be the doctors and nurses and care workers of the future.” I get that mate, but the birthrate also needs to decline as there are just too many people for the planet as a whole to sustain. I really don't know what the solution is as it's much more complicated than I'm willing to research or spend my time writing about, but my personal view is that we need less people on the planet and a more sustainable way of living. We can't keep exponentially increasing the population just to cater for the previous generation. Pensions reform perhaps? I'm asking a lot of question but I don't know the answers. For me, I think people in general should be content with less and be more supportive of their communities. But now I'm moving into areas I have limited knowledge of Maybe I'm too simplistic in my thinking. I wouldn't mind a big reset to be honest. Living off our own resources and not relying on others. I absolutely agree about the planet needing fewer people on it. I would be happy to consider voting for a one-child policy, for example. However, the only way to change reduce the workforce while also continuing to make improvements on healthcare etc is to restructure wealth disparities (which is a non-starter). Even with that, you are still going to have at least one generation get destroyed by the changes.
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Post by wannabee on Mar 26, 2024 12:10:06 GMT
We as a country have always relied on immigrants to perform certain rolls in our society Isn't that really just a lesser form of slavery though? We bring in less worthy people to do shit work that we can't be bothered to do? Everyone should be willing to work in whatever capacity is available imo. If the terms aren't good enough then the government should do something about it. My reply will possibly be incomplete as I haven't found a suitable one on Google Reading your various posts you have identified a number of the issues which are varied and complex There are 6M people receiving UC of which 40% or about 2.5M are in work but not earning a living wage
The Minimum wage is £11.44 per hour or annualized about £23K it is considerably lower if under 23 changing to 21 from April. Freezing of Tax Bands since April 2021 have brought more and more low paid workers into Tax paying, narrowing the gap between working and not working
After Students the largest cohort of Immigrants granted Visas were for Social Care a traditionally low paid occupation. In the 2021 Census 5M people stated they were unpaid Carers. Estimates believe there are at least twice that number.
The cost of Residential or Nursing Care in UK is about £60/70K per year forcing many mostly females to adopt the role of unpaid Carers with the knock-on effect on their employment opportunities as the cost of Residential/Nursing Care is prohibitive
There are about 1M people paid (poorly) in Residential/Nursing Care. There simply isn't enough people left in the pool to increase the number of British Citizens to work in the Care Sector beyond those already doing so unpaid. The shortfall is bridged by Immigrants.
The situation will become worse as the population ages and also Immigrants will become less inclined as the rules on bringing dependents have just changed
66% of Visas issued in 2023 were to Students or for Social Care.
Fund Universities to a level that doesn't require Foreign Students to function, better yet review if the University Courses provided match the requirements of the Economy. In fact step back and review the Schools Curriculum that feeds Universities AND Vocational Colleges
Treat Social Care with the respect it deserves as a Profession and remunerate accordingly. Fund State Residential/Nursing Homes to be free to access on a means tested basis.
This would inevitably lead to higher taxes but it's a Political Choice to operate the system we currently have.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Mar 26, 2024 12:48:08 GMT
We as a country have always relied on immigrants to perform certain rolls in our society Isn't that really just a lesser form of slavery though? We bring in less worthy people to do shit work that we can't be bothered to do? Everyone should be willing to work in whatever capacity is available imo. If the terms aren't good enough then the government should do something about it. Part of the problem is our class system. You are right as a society we do look down on people who do what are deemed to be menial jobs and pay them a pittance for doing it. Part of the solution is to change attitudes and give those jobs and the people doing them the dignity and respect (and pay and conditions) they deserve. Having said that I'm not sure jobs in the NHS and social care should even be classed as unskilled or at least they shouldn't be done by people who don't have the skills to do the job properly. I think you are right in that we shouldn't be so dependent on migrant workers to do those jobs but the fact is we we are and even this government recognises that in terms of actual government policy on immigration. The thing is they are being completely dishonest about what they are doing. It's an issue that needs a proper public debate and not handled in terms of dog whistle politics and saying one thing and doing the opposite.
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Post by foster on Mar 26, 2024 13:01:44 GMT
Isn't that really just a lesser form of slavery though? We bring in less worthy people to do shit work that we can't be bothered to do? Everyone should be willing to work in whatever capacity is available imo. If the terms aren't good enough then the government should do something about it. My reply will possibly be incomplete as I haven't found a suitable one on Google Reading your various posts you have identified a number of the issues which are varied and complex There are 6M people receiving UC of which 40% or about 2.5M are in work but not earning a living wage
The Minimum wage is £11.44 per hour or annualized about £23K it is considerably lower if under 23 changing to 21 from April. Freezing of Tax Bands since April 2021 have brought more and more low paid workers into Tax paying, narrowing the gap between working and not working
After Students the largest cohort of Immigrants granted Visas were for Social Care a traditionally low paid occupation. In the 2021 Census 5M people stated they were unpaid Carers. Estimates believe there are at least twice that number.
The cost of Residential or Nursing Care in UK is about £60/70K per year forcing many mostly females to adopt the role of unpaid Carers with the knock-on effect on their employment opportunities as the cost of Residential/Nursing Care is prohibitive
There are about 1M people paid (poorly) in Residential/Nursing Care. There simply isn't enough people left in the pool to increase the number of British Citizens to work in the Care Sector beyond those already doing so unpaid. The shortfall is bridged by Immigrants.
The situation will become worse as the population ages and also Immigrants will become less inclined as the rules on bringing dependents have just changed
66% of Visas issued in 2023 were to Students or for Social Care.
Fund Universities to a level that doesn't require Foreign Students to function, better yet review if the University Courses provided match the requirements of the Economy. In fact step back and review the Schools Curriculum that feeds Universities AND Vocational Colleges
Treat Social Care with the respect it deserves as a Profession and remunerate accordingly. Fund State Residential/Nursing Homes to be free to access on a means tested basis.
This would inevitably lead to higher taxes but it's a Political Choice to operate the system we currently have.
All good mate. I agree that social care workers should get a lot more than currently. It's regarded as a shit job when in reality it should be one of the most rewarding jobs around. I'm thinking that maybe I'm believing in a system that's in a fantasy world. But unless we change the current system, we're fucked. As said, I don't know the solution, but I can see the bigger picture. The way we/govt are going now won't work in the long run. F. ps - it was wikipedia, not google.
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Post by oggyoggy on Mar 27, 2024 12:53:48 GMT
The cumulative number of arrivals on small boats so far this year, 4,644, is 23% higher than the total at this point last year, which was 3,770, and 12% higher than the total at this stage in 2022, which was 4,162.
The Rwanda plan is not working.
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