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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 19, 2024 19:50:00 GMT
That does make sobering reading Ian. Rather than winning friends and influencing people the events had the opposite effect on many. Really we need to sort these things out through the normal channels of democracy. We need to change the system. Even if we believe the cause is right, which I and many others do, we cannot really make and change policy by bullying, fear and compulsion..... if the " right" decided to use the same tactics we'd have a whole different set of problems. I've no idea what the answer is, people need to be able to express themselves outside the Parliamentary system AND people need to go about their daily lives.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 19, 2024 22:42:36 GMT
Many/ most of the protesters I've seen are old/ elderly which seems to debunk the myth that they are only concerned about themselves and not concerned about the future, the planet and the younger generation
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 20, 2024 6:32:57 GMT
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Post by foster on Jul 20, 2024 6:39:54 GMT
Many/ most of the protesters I've seen are old/ elderly which seems to debunk the myth that they are only concerned about themselves and not concerned about the future, the planet and the younger generation True BJR. It's probably also because they've got more time on their hands. No work or kids to take care of. I'll probably do more charity or eco work once my kids evenually move out. I think people of all ages care, but the majority of protesters to me look either really young or old. So people with the time to invest in a good cause.
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Post by andystokey on Jul 20, 2024 8:20:46 GMT
There is a similar established view regarding sex crime. If the sentences are too high the thinking being the perp may as well murder the victim afterwards. Proportionality of sentences does gave an effect on behaviour during the crime. If one faces jail for a minor driving offence then the temptation to fail to stop increases.
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Jul 20, 2024 8:30:19 GMT
It depends how you define peaceful mate. If they were lying in the road and I was trying to get a dying loved one to the hospital and didn't make it because of them then I'd probably think they deserved alot more than five years. It's not like they stand in a town centre holding up banners is it. They disrupt people's lives who have nothing to do with oil.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 20, 2024 8:44:46 GMT
It depends how you define peaceful mate. If they were lying in the road and I was trying to get a dying loved one to the hospital and didn't make it because of them then I'd probably think they deserved alot more than five years. It's not like they stand in a town centre holding up banners is it. They disrupt people's lives who have nothing to do with oil. Everybody has something to do with oil, that's kind of the point. You drive a car, you have something to do with oil. And disruption is, again, the point of the protest. I'm not saying I disagree with the prosecution although I do think the sentences are disproportionate. Kiddie fiddlers get less. Let's see what happens to Michelle Mone (defrauded £200m in PPE contracts allegedly) if she ever gets prosecuted! What is amusing is that, when climate change really starts having a tangible effect on our lives and impacts like banning car driving every other day of the week or something similar are put in place, all those folk 'celebrating' these sentences will be precisely the ones moaning that "we should've done something about it all 20 years ago" 🙄
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Post by fullmetaljacket on Jul 20, 2024 8:50:24 GMT
By their very nature protests have to disrupt, annoy, frustrate etc..
No one likes being caught up in them and when I have been I have labeled them a fucking nuisance etc. But without disruption how will anything change.
Can you imagine the suffragettes being told to gather in a square and hold up placards etc. Imagine the civil rights in the 60's being told the same and expecting anything to change if it doesn't cause annoyance/disruption to people.
Should they be punished, yes. Are those sentences wild, yep.
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Jul 20, 2024 8:55:04 GMT
It depends how you define peaceful mate. If they were lying in the road and I was trying to get a dying loved one to the hospital and didn't make it because of them then I'd probably think they deserved alot more than five years. It's not like they stand in a town centre holding up banners is it. They disrupt people's lives who have nothing to do with oil. Everybody has something to do with oil, that's kind of the point. You drive a car, you have something to do with oil. And disruption is, again, the point of the protest. I'm not saying I disagree with the prosecution although I do think the sentences are disproportionate. Kiddie fiddlers get less. Let's see what happens to Michelle Mone (defrauded £200m in PPE contracts allegedly) if she ever gets prosecuted! What is amusing is that, when climate change really starts having a tangible effect on our lives and impacts like banning car driving every other day of the week or something similar are put in place, all those folk 'celebrating' these sentences will be precisely the ones moaning that "we should've done something about it all 20 years ago" 🙄 I can see it from both sides mate. I am just pointing out that these protests could cause someone who needs to get to a hospital to not make it in time. If you were a family member of that person you would probably think that 5 years was not enough. I agree regarding sex offenders sentences as the are so low it is disgusting.
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 20, 2024 9:02:14 GMT
Everybody has something to do with oil, that's kind of the point. You drive a car, you have something to do with oil. And disruption is, again, the point of the protest. I'm not saying I disagree with the prosecution although I do think the sentences are disproportionate. Kiddie fiddlers get less. Let's see what happens to Michelle Mone (defrauded £200m in PPE contracts allegedly) if she ever gets prosecuted! What is amusing is that, when climate change really starts having a tangible effect on our lives and impacts like banning car driving every other day of the week or something similar are put in place, all those folk 'celebrating' these sentences will be precisely the ones moaning that "we should've done something about it all 20 years ago" 🙄 I can see it from both sides mate. I am just pointing out that these protests could cause someone who needs to get to a hospital to not make it in time. If you were a family member of that person you would probably think that 5 years was not enough. I agree regarding sex offenders sentences as the are so low it is disgusting. If someone stole your car on the day you might need to take your loved one to the hospital, do you think they should get 4 or 5 years imprisonment? (I believe the maximum term for stealing a car is 6 months?) Should sentences always be equated with impact, even hypothetical impact? Moral maze question.
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Jul 20, 2024 9:06:19 GMT
I can see it from both sides mate. I am just pointing out that these protests could cause someone who needs to get to a hospital to not make it in time. If you were a family member of that person you would probably think that 5 years was not enough. I agree regarding sex offenders sentences as the are so low it is disgusting. If someone stole your car on the day you might need to take your loved one to the hospital, do you think they should get 4 or 5 years imprisonment? (I believe the maximum term for stealing a car is 6 months?) Should sentences always be equated with impact, even hypothetical impact? Moral maze question. Ofcourse it is hypothetical mate. I'm looking at it from the point of someone who could be affected by the protest in the worst way. The sentence is harsh obviously but that's looking at it from someone who hasn't been affected by these protests.
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 20, 2024 9:08:27 GMT
That does make sobering reading Ian. Rather than winning friends and influencing people the events had the opposite effect on many. Really we need to sort these things out through the normal channels of democracy. We need to change the system. Even if we believe the cause is right, which I and many others do, we cannot really make and change policy by bullying, fear and compulsion..... if the " right" decided to use the same tactics we'd have a whole different set of problems. I've no idea what the answer is, people need to be able to express themselves outside the Parliamentary system AND people need to go about their daily lives. The issue of a cancer patient having to wait 2 months for a missed appointment is surely the failings of the Health Service, so maybe the relevant Health Minister should be sharing some of this prison sentence as well?
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 20, 2024 9:12:14 GMT
If someone stole your car on the day you might need to take your loved one to the hospital, do you think they should get 4 or 5 years imprisonment? (I believe the maximum term for stealing a car is 6 months?) Should sentences always be equated with impact, even hypothetical impact? Moral maze question. Ofcourse it is hypothetical mate. I'm looking at it from the point of someone who could be affected by the protest in the worst way. The sentence is harsh obviously but that's looking at it from someone who hasn't been affected by these protests. I'm just wondering where that leads us, that is, if we look at offences from their impacts (even potential ones) and whether that is always considered in all offences and sentencing. That doesn't seem to apply with people who drive carelessly and cause accidents for example, or people who commit fraud.
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Post by andystokey on Jul 20, 2024 9:19:11 GMT
Ofcourse it is hypothetical mate. I'm looking at it from the point of someone who could be affected by the protest in the worst way. The sentence is harsh obviously but that's looking at it from someone who hasn't been affected by these protests. I'm just wondering where that leads us, that is, if we look at offences from their impacts (even potential ones) and whether that is always considered in all offences and sentencing. That doesn't seem to apply with people who drive carelessly and cause accidents for example, or people who commit fraud. Worse than that these 5 were sentenced to collectively 20 odd years for talking about it on a zoom call. They have been sentenced for the conspiracy not the act.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 20, 2024 9:19:43 GMT
Everybody has something to do with oil, that's kind of the point. You drive a car, you have something to do with oil. And disruption is, again, the point of the protest. I'm not saying I disagree with the prosecution although I do think the sentences are disproportionate. Kiddie fiddlers get less. Let's see what happens to Michelle Mone (defrauded £200m in PPE contracts allegedly) if she ever gets prosecuted! What is amusing is that, when climate change really starts having a tangible effect on our lives and impacts like banning car driving every other day of the week or something similar are put in place, all those folk 'celebrating' these sentences will be precisely the ones moaning that "we should've done something about it all 20 years ago" 🙄 I can see it from both sides mate. I am just pointing out that these protests could cause someone who needs to get to a hospital to not make it in time. If you were a family member of that person you would probably think that 5 years was not enough. I agree regarding sex offenders sentences as the are so low it is disgusting. Yes, I get that but that disruption is the point of protests (and indeed strikes). No-one gives a shit about a strongly worded letter to The Times, or a bunch of placard waving protestors occupying a town centre for a day. If we're talking purely about impact on individuals as the basis for sentencing, I'll be curious to see how long anyone convicted of Covid PPE fraud gets, given that their fraudulence may well have cost actual lives. You'll remember frontline NHS staff having to wear binliners as PPE because those who'd benefited from multi-million pound contract failed to deliver the goods. Several of those NHS workers died as a result. Not sure anyone has died as a result of JSO, although I'm happy to be corrected on that, if so.
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Jul 20, 2024 10:35:38 GMT
I can see it from both sides mate. I am just pointing out that these protests could cause someone who needs to get to a hospital to not make it in time. If you were a family member of that person you would probably think that 5 years was not enough. I agree regarding sex offenders sentences as the are so low it is disgusting. Yes, I get that but that disruption is the point of protests (and indeed strikes). No-one gives a shit about a strongly worded letter to The Times, or a bunch of placard waving protestors occupying a town centre for a day. If we're talking purely about impact on individuals as the basis for sentencing, I'll be curious to see how long anyone convicted of Covid PPE fraud gets, given that their fraudulence may well have cost actual lives. You'll remember frontline NHS staff having to wear binliners as PPE because those who'd benefited from multi-million pound contract failed to deliver the goods. Several of those NHS workers died as a result. Not sure anyone has died as a result of JSO, although I'm happy to be corrected on that, if so. I agree that the point of it is disruption mate but it's something that doesn't sit right with me. Just my thoughts mate and like I say I can see it from the other side aswell. I'm not sure anyone has died due to the protests but I have seen videos where people are telling them they need to get to hospital and they continue to lie down in the road. This is the sort of thing that turns people against their cause.
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Post by middleoftheboothen on Jul 20, 2024 10:39:33 GMT
Ofcourse it is hypothetical mate. I'm looking at it from the point of someone who could be affected by the protest in the worst way. The sentence is harsh obviously but that's looking at it from someone who hasn't been affected by these protests. I'm just wondering where that leads us, that is, if we look at offences from their impacts (even potential ones) and whether that is always considered in all offences and sentencing. That doesn't seem to apply with people who drive carelessly and cause accidents for example, or people who commit fraud. I very sadly know that people who drive carelessly and cause accidents don't get the sentences they deserve mate but would rather not go into that.
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Post by Davef on Jul 22, 2024 18:27:35 GMT
"Cressida will miss her brother's wedding next year".
Said without a hint of irony.
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Post by metalhead on Jul 22, 2024 19:40:53 GMT
The sentences are still fucking mental.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jul 22, 2024 19:47:46 GMT
The sentences are still fucking mental. They are
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 22, 2024 19:53:34 GMT
The sentences are still fucking mental. True Some sort of community service would have been better....but the actual law they were charged with didn't allow that option. A jail sentence when we are talking about early release of others( who are probably a much greater threat) shows how stupid the law and or political decision making is. I would guess they didn't mind being found guilty, they must know they were pushing the boundaries BUT as Andy pointed out in an earlier post the sentence was for " conspiring to....." and not for actually causing disruption....as I understand it.
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Post by salopstick on Jul 25, 2024 15:42:20 GMT
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jul 25, 2024 18:32:56 GMT
So what we have are spoiled offsprings from upper middle class families talking down to the poor. These people live in giant houses, drive cars, go on holiday in jet aircraft, and their privilege means they are probably using more electricity and oil based products than most of the prolateriat . Do as I say, not as I do. When they’re living in Stone Age communes in hessian sack then you might start to think they have some integrity.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jul 25, 2024 18:35:52 GMT
So what we have are spoiled offsprings from upper middle class families talking down to the poor. These people live in giant houses, drive cars, go on holiday in jet aircraft, and their privilege means they are probably using more electricity and oil based products than most of the prolateriat . Do as I say, not as I do. When they’re living in Stone Age communes in hessian sack then you might start to think they have some integrity. In fairness we don’t know that. But I’d be absolutely amazed if it wasn’t the case for the vast majority. How else do they find the time and money? Even the ultra wokies on here can’t do it
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jul 25, 2024 18:42:11 GMT
In fairness we don't know that. But that won't stop you leaping to that assumption 🤣
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jul 25, 2024 18:44:11 GMT
So what we have are spoiled offsprings from upper middle class families talking down to the poor. These people live in giant houses, drive cars, go on holiday in jet aircraft, and their privilege means they are probably using more electricity and oil based products than most of the prolateriat . Do as I say, not as I do. When they’re living in Stone Age communes in hessian sack then you might start to think they have some integrity. In fairness we don’t know that. But I’d be absolutely amazed if it wasn’t the case for the vast majority. How else do they find the time and money? Even the ultra wokies on here can’t do it www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13662619/Mother-JSO-activist-jailed-M25-sentence.htmlCheck out the house. This is not ecologically friendly living. Put your pimms can in a recycle bin and drive an EV the size of a transit van. Yeah ok.
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Post by plug on Jul 25, 2024 19:18:54 GMT
That's my favourite painting. They deserve death.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jul 25, 2024 19:21:06 GMT
That's my favourite painting. They deserve death. That made me spit my G and T out mate🤣
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Post by plug on Jul 25, 2024 19:42:17 GMT
That's my favourite painting. They deserve death. That made me spit my G and T out mate🤣 It's probably just that pink gin you're so fond of, Badger ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/800541/images/0m0lbCuTEBzaRn6f8QaM.gif)
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Post by metalhead on Jul 25, 2024 21:38:53 GMT
So what we have are spoiled offsprings from upper middle class families talking down to the poor. These people live in giant houses, drive cars, go on holiday in jet aircraft, and their privilege means they are probably using more electricity and oil based products than most of the prolateriat . Do as I say, not as I do. When they’re living in Stone Age communes in hessian sack then you might start to think they have some integrity. Is that what they are doing? I absolutely agree that many are spoiled offsprings from middle class upbringings, but is that actually what they are doing? Talking down to the poor....? I am absolutely against some of their methods, especially the ones that disproportionately affect ordinary people (blocking roads etc). Ordinary people don't have the necessary power to change the bigger picture really, no matter how much you believe in the illusion of democracy. If we did, marijuana would have been legalised years ago. When they gatecrash a big event and piss off a bunch of rich tennis fans, I really admire their work. That's good old fashioned protest, if you ask me. They are finding their voice. It seems that they are actually trying to get the attention of politicians and in certain cases are going about it in the wrong way. I understand their actions hurt a lot of people on that very day. I genuinely feel for those people and some punishment was due. 12 months would have been reasonable. 2 years would have been harsh. 5 years is fucking lunacy.
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