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Post by followyoudown on May 15, 2022 13:51:38 GMT
So scfc has to and settled for "the best of the rest". Well we make our beds and lie in them. We had to initially, but not now I think we are able to compete for players alot better than 10-15 years ago . Yes that was basically my point, well established academies had a reputation so parents with choices would not make Stoke first pick, for instance at the time we were starting up Crewe's academy was highly rated not so much now....... |
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Post by newsteadst3 on May 15, 2022 14:40:16 GMT
We had to initially, but not now I think we are able to compete for players alot better than 10-15 years ago . Yes that was basically my point, well established academies had a reputation so parents with choices would not make Stoke first pick, for instance at the time we were starting up Crewe's academy was highly rated not so much now....... Totally agree mate also in early 2000s All the parents wanted there lads to be at Man City as they were scouring Stoke area and if I remember quite a lot of Stoke lads signed at Man City. None got close to making it though and we're mostly released at 16. |
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Post by Trouserdog on May 15, 2022 15:21:36 GMT
I'll tell you why he says what he does in the press about the youths. He doesn't care about the players in the academy. He has little or no intention of playing them in league matches, as I said two years ago and was widely abused over several pages for stating my opinion, yet two years since has seen very little action by academy prospects in important games. He has zero trust in them to come good. Even Tezgel has only been allowed spare minutes in matches that had already been won by the time he came on. In other words Tezgel's appearences are only cosmetic. Good news stories in the Sentinel pages, but of no consequence. All alibying, something O'Neill is very good at, having watched the master of the trade, Tom Ince, at close hand for a while. He doesn't praise them to make them feel good. He says those things to make himself look good in the press and in the boardroom. "The first manager since Waddington to make something out of the Staffs youth riches." Yeah right... Absolute arse gravy. |
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Post by Deleted on May 15, 2022 15:42:24 GMT
In the vast majority of cases, we cannot compete for the very best against clubs that are so far out of our league. I don’t see how that could be made into a critical comment on the club. That’s just life for clubs who aren’t top 6. The vast majority of premier league academy players don’t make it to Championship level, why would Stoke’s? It’s not about training them better etc, football is just such a competitive sport to be successful in. But do we know to be competitive enough? It seems we are just about to, but even when we have the best crop of youngsters in many years, scfc just lie down and deem not good enough. We then rely on second class or even third class purchases and spent as much money on them as we can get away with, with little return both financially but more important leaguewise. Scfc don't appear to be able to plan long term. We can't keep relying on loans, freebies, and expensive no-gooders. Planning long term means developing players even if in a one to one comparison, a 19 year old Sparrow doesn't look as good as a 32-year old has-never-really-been Clucas. As I mentioned above, if the vast majority of the academy players from the top leagues in the world will never make it at the level of the Championship, how is it a failing of Stoke if they are not constantly developing them either? As much as I hate Clucas, he’s had a much more successful career than the vast majority of academy players will ever have, no matter who trained them. |
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Post by jokker on May 15, 2022 19:21:32 GMT
But do we know to be competitive enough? It seems we are just about to, but even when we have the best crop of youngsters in many years, scfc just lie down and deem not good enough. We then rely on second class or even third class purchases and spent as much money on them as we can get away with, with little return both financially but more important leaguewise. Scfc don't appear to be able to plan long term. We can't keep relying on loans, freebies, and expensive no-gooders. Planning long term means developing players even if in a one to one comparison, a 19 year old Sparrow doesn't look as good as a 32-year old has-never-really-been Clucas. As I mentioned above, if the vast majority of the academy players from the top leagues in the world will never make it at the level of the Championship, how is it a failing of Stoke if they are not constantly developing them either? As much as I hate Clucas, he’s had a much more successful career than the vast majority of academy players will ever have, no matter who trained them. Do we know for sure that Clucas at 19 was a better player then than Sparrow is now, provided he plays in his best position? |
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Post by jokker on May 15, 2022 19:22:35 GMT
I'll tell you why he says what he does in the press about the youths. He doesn't care about the players in the academy. He has little or no intention of playing them in league matches, as I said two years ago and was widely abused over several pages for stating my opinion, yet two years since has seen very little action by academy prospects in important games. He has zero trust in them to come good. Even Tezgel has only been allowed spare minutes in matches that had already been won by the time he came on. In other words Tezgel's appearences are only cosmetic. Good news stories in the Sentinel pages, but of no consequence. All alibying, something O'Neill is very good at, having watched the master of the trade, Tom Ince, at close hand for a while. He doesn't praise them to make them feel good. He says those things to make himself look good in the press and in the boardroom. "The first manager since Waddington to make something out of the Staffs youth riches." Yeah right... Absolute arse gravy. In that case you still owe a better explanation. But you can't, can you... |
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Post by jokker on May 16, 2022 8:46:26 GMT
But do we know to be competitive enough? It seems we are just about to, but even when we have the best crop of youngsters in many years, scfc just lie down and deem not good enough. We then rely on second class or even third class purchases and spent as much money on them as we can get away with, with little return both financially but more important leaguewise. Scfc don't appear to be able to plan long term. We can't keep relying on loans, freebies, and expensive no-gooders. Planning long term means developing players even if in a one to one comparison, a 19 year old Sparrow doesn't look as good as a 32-year old has-never-really-been Clucas. As I mentioned above, if the vast majority of the academy players from the top leagues in the world will never make it at the level of the Championship, how is it a failing of Stoke if they are not constantly developing them either? As much as I hate Clucas, he’s had a much more successful career than the vast majority of academy players will ever have, no matter who trained them. So the Stoke policy as you see it can be boiled down to, 'we've never had any success with academy players, so let's continue that way'? |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2022 12:39:25 GMT
As I mentioned above, if the vast majority of the academy players from the top leagues in the world will never make it at the level of the Championship, how is it a failing of Stoke if they are not constantly developing them either? As much as I hate Clucas, he’s had a much more successful career than the vast majority of academy players will ever have, no matter who trained them. So the Stoke policy as you see it can be boiled down to, 'we've never had any success with academy players, so let's continue that way'? If you want to make it that simplistic, yes. It’s SO exceedingly unlikely that we would bring through one a year, never mind a handful. Man City barely do that and they have one of the best academies in the world. When one of the best at the process is getting minimal returns, what do you expect to happen? It doesn’t affect our FFP; it offers the opportunity that hopefully someone (eg Tezgel perhaps) may come through; if we didn’t do it, we’d look like a club with poor infrastructure, which may make it hard to attract new players; there’d be uproar anytime a player did come out from the catchment area while we didn’t have one. Your arguments appear to be along the lines of: we suck at it (we seem about par for the course nowadays), it’s expensive (it’s not your money). It seems we are going in circles now, so i think im done with this discussion. |
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Post by jokker on May 16, 2022 13:12:21 GMT
So the Stoke policy as you see it can be boiled down to, 'we've never had any success with academy players, so let's continue that way'? If you want to make it that simplistic, yes. It’s SO exceedingly unlikely that we would bring through one a year, never mind a handful. Man City barely do that and they have one of the best academies in the world. When one of the best at the process is getting minimal returns, what do you expect to happen? It doesn’t affect our FFP; it offers the opportunity that hopefully someone (eg Tezgel perhaps) may come through; if we didn’t do it, we’d look like a club with poor infrastructure, which may make it hard to attract new players; there’d be uproar anytime a player did come out from the catchment area while we didn’t have one. Your arguments appear to be along the lines of: we suck at it (we seem about par for the course nowadays), it’s expensive (it’s not your money). It seems we are going in circles now, so i think im done with this discussion. Your new "along the lines of" lack 'it's not your money, but it's my support, and the club can't keep throwing money out while failing to adapt to the times when we'll be moneyless.' |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2022 13:17:32 GMT
As I mentioned above, if the vast majority of the academy players from the top leagues in the world will never make it at the level of the Championship, how is it a failing of Stoke if they are not constantly developing them either? As much as I hate Clucas, he’s had a much more successful career than the vast majority of academy players will ever have, no matter who trained them. Do we know for sure that Clucas at 19 was a better player then than Sparrow is now, provided he plays in his best position? What is his best position? Wild guess says you are going to say centre mid, but you know this how? Lots of youth prospects end up in different positions than they originally started. You just think he has been shoe horned in at RB/RWB because we have a pressing need there. I very much doubt that is the case. Incidentally, he played very well yesterday in the 23s as an attacking RB. |
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Post by jokker on May 16, 2022 13:30:48 GMT
Do we know for sure that Clucas at 19 was a better player then than Sparrow is now, provided he plays in his best position? What is his best position? Wild guess says you are going to say centre mid, but you know this how? Lots of youth prospects end up in different positions than they originally started. You just think he has been shoe horned in at RB/RWB because we have a pressing need there. I very much doubt that is the case. Incidentally, he played very well yesterday in the 23s as an attacking RB. I followed the u23 team all last season and he played really well as a central midfielder, sometimes as a box-to-box. Then later he was injured and when he came back, Malone was playing there, and Sparrow was moved to rb. I didn't like it, because we already had Coates playing there at the time. |
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Post by FullerMagic on May 24, 2022 16:24:54 GMT
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Post by leicspotter on May 24, 2022 17:11:15 GMT
Best of luck to him
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Post by The battheader chronicles on May 24, 2022 17:52:28 GMT
Best of luck Adam. Congratulations on your living your (and many of our) dreams
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Post by wuzza on May 24, 2022 18:02:31 GMT
Good luck to the young man - let’s hope he develops a successful career even if it’s not at his boyhood club.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on May 24, 2022 18:14:36 GMT
Now that's how you post on social media when you leave a club (mentioning no names). |
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Post by nott1 on May 25, 2022 10:21:56 GMT
Hardly surprising that few progress nowadays as school ideolgy seems to be taking part is better than winning ,so therefore getting kids who don't really bother too much about winning. Plus they are all eating junk food whilst not putting the effort in to strengthen their bodies.Most kids are overweight now anyway! This means we have an ever decreasing pool of quality.
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Post by bunnyscfc on May 25, 2022 10:27:12 GMT
Hardly surprising that few progress nowadays as school ideolgy seems to be taking part is better than winning ,so therefore getting kids who don't really bother too much about winning. Plus they are all eating junk food whilst not putting the effort in to strengthen their bodies.Most kids are overweight now anyway! This means we have an ever decreasing pool of quality. What has school ideology got to do with Adam Porter leaving? He's been at Stoke for 14 years, my lad has been there for 8 - every kid there totally devotes themselves to what they are doing....fitness, diet, social life etc.....they are monitored on a weekly basis at one of the 4 times that 12-13 year olds are down at Clayton Wood. The problem may be the other ide of the coin....they are too dedicated. The fall when they get released must be gigantic. There are more kids playing at football clubs than ever before. The pool is bigger than ever. |
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Post by newsteadst3 on May 25, 2022 10:44:38 GMT
Hardly surprising that few progress nowadays as school ideolgy seems to be taking part is better than winning ,so therefore getting kids who don't really bother too much about winning. Plus they are all eating junk food whilst not putting the effort in to strengthen their bodies.Most kids are overweight now anyway! This means we have an ever decreasing pool of quality. What has school ideology got to do with Adam Porter leaving? He's been at Stoke for 14 years, my lad has been there for 8 - every kid there totally devotes themselves to what they are doing....fitness, diet, social life etc.....they are monitored on a weekly basis at one of the 4 times that 12-13 year olds are down at Clayton Wood. The problem may be the other ide of the coin....they are too dedicated. The fall when they get released must be gigantic. There are more kids playing at football clubs than ever before. The pool is bigger than ever. Good point regarding the fall , hope though when they leave the club they have made great memories and have played in some ace teams and matches. The saddest think I always find in the lower age groups is once they get released alot stop playing. That's a crying shame given they obviously at some point they loved the game. Big commitment for parents too i always think . |
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Post by knype on May 25, 2022 10:46:41 GMT
Hardly surprising that few progress nowadays as school ideolgy seems to be taking part is better than winning ,so therefore getting kids who don't really bother too much about winning. Plus they are all eating junk food whilst not putting the effort in to strengthen their bodies.Most kids are overweight now anyway! This means we have an ever decreasing pool of quality. Is this said in jest? I know a few within the system and they certainly are not like that, in fact they are the complete opposite! |
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Post by spitthedog on May 25, 2022 11:00:38 GMT
Hardly surprising that few progress nowadays as school ideolgy seems to be taking part is better than winning ,so therefore getting kids who don't really bother too much about winning. Plus they are all eating junk food whilst not putting the effort in to strengthen their bodies.Most kids are overweight now anyway! This means we have an ever decreasing pool of quality. If anything historically there has been too much emphasis in school/youth football on winning games and not enough coaching of specific skills to improve the quality of the player. This may have changed since I'm now out of the coaching loop so others will know far better. You don't get improvement, or learning by just being yelled at to get the ball forward and to win a game at all costs. In addition I know of many young kids who look after themselves far better than when I was involved in coaching. |
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Post by bunnyscfc on May 25, 2022 11:27:37 GMT
Hardly surprising that few progress nowadays as school ideolgy seems to be taking part is better than winning ,so therefore getting kids who don't really bother too much about winning. Plus they are all eating junk food whilst not putting the effort in to strengthen their bodies.Most kids are overweight now anyway! This means we have an ever decreasing pool of quality. If anything historically there has been too much emphasis in school/youth football on winning games and not enough coaching of specific skills to improve the quality of the player. This may have changed since I'm now out of the coaching loop so others will know far better. You don't get improvement, or learning by just being yelled at to get the ball forward and to win a game at all costs. In addition I know of many young kids who look after themselves far better than when I was involved in coaching. spot on. It should be about player development. Always nice to win stuff, but academies should be about getting kids ready to sign contracts 16/18+. The fitness levels are insane. Any kid who is stuffing their face or not doing the physical work would soon get found out. I reckon there must be at least 200 kids on Stoke's books under 16, a huge amount. |
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Post by nott1 on May 25, 2022 15:52:11 GMT
Hardly surprising that few progress nowadays as school ideolgy seems to be taking part is better than winning ,so therefore getting kids who don't really bother too much about winning. Plus they are all eating junk food whilst not putting the effort in to strengthen their bodies.Most kids are overweight now anyway! This means we have an ever decreasing pool of quality. Is this said in jest? I know a few within the system and they certainly are not like that, in fact they are the complete opposite! It was a bit tongue in cheek ,and not really talking about the ones in the academy ,but the thousands of fatties wobbling around schools and the ever decreasing pool of talent due to this! |
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Post by ct1 on May 27, 2022 10:15:00 GMT
Is this said in jest? I know a few within the system and they certainly are not like that, in fact they are the complete opposite! It was a bit tongue in cheek ,and not really talking about the ones in the academy ,but the thousands of fatties wobbling around schools and the ever decreasing pool of talent due to this! no no no the woke brigade wont like this! Try something like thousands of weight different non gender specific lower age people walking in a different but no less valid manner around educational establishments |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 25, 2022 0:15:31 GMT
Interesting that he’s signed for Salford City but is only part of the development squad, I thought he’d have had at least a sniff at first team football fairly early on……
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Post by newsteadst3 on Jul 25, 2022 6:14:34 GMT
Porter would need to kick on from the "Development Squad" towards the end of the season he be 21? this time I would guess.
Ideally wouldn't want to be playing academy football this time next year.
I notice they've signed Stevie Mallan so Porter have his work cut out to get a game in the first team.
There's a lad from round here 22 in Luton Towns Development Squad. I often think you need be playing mens football at that age. Then again with mad Nath at the helm who knows.
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Post by a on Jul 25, 2022 8:39:24 GMT
Interesting that he’s signed for Salford City but is only part of the development squad, I thought he’d have had at least a sniff at first team football fairly early on…… I think that there is an overinflated view of the youth players propagated by a certain someone. Inevitably when most sadly dont make it, it shouldn’t come as too big a shock. We do get some that make the grade but the way of the world suggests most won’t play in the top 2-3 leagues, with many falling further down the leagues into obscurity. |
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Post by superalexneil on Jul 25, 2022 9:05:55 GMT
lovely lad, but wont make it
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 25, 2022 9:50:13 GMT
Is this said in jest? I know a few within the system and they certainly are not like that, in fact they are the complete opposite! It was a bit tongue in cheek ,and not really talking about the ones in the academy ,but the thousands of fatties wobbling around schools and the ever decreasing pool of talent due to this! If anything in my experience winning has become too important in school football. It used to be that anyone who wanted to play for school would be included at least for some minutes in some games. Now it seems to be that the best players are always picked even if in a younger age group because winning has become so important. |
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Post by nott1 on Jul 25, 2022 10:27:29 GMT
It was a bit tongue in cheek ,and not really talking about the ones in the academy ,but the thousands of fatties wobbling around schools and the ever decreasing pool of talent due to this! If anything in my experience winning has become too important in school football. It used to be that anyone who wanted to play for school would be included at least for some minutes in some games. Now it seems to be that the best players are always picked even if in a younger age group because winning has become so important. If picking a team to play matches against other schools I think it's best to pick your best team. When I played I would not want duffers in the team it was important to win! |
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