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Post by SCFC92 on Jul 15, 2024 8:35:33 GMT
We can talk about managers as much as we like and, although that is a valid discussion, for me the critical aspect is coaching and development from youth, including mindset. We don't produce genuinely world class players who can do it at international level and win things. Simple as that. Spain were brilliant from about 2008 to 2012 and look like they've produced another fine generation. They must be doing something right. We should be copying their approach. I firmly believe it's the players primarily, not the manager. Apart from a lot of that team are world class and play for the best clubs in the world. Certainly, I think the calibre of team/club that our starting XI play for compared to the Spanish is way superior. They were a team though, they were coached. Our u21s are the current u21 Euro Champions Foden won an u20 World Cup. The players are generally the best. The manager we have should struggle to get a job in League One. Agree with this. I think we got to where we are because of the players and not the manager. The shrinking back into ourselves after we equalised was so infuriating. We were on the front foot, with momentum and he completely stifled it. We have one of, if not the best squads in world football with talent in every position. A stronger coach would have us winning trophies. Southgate must go now.
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Post by moon on Jul 15, 2024 8:42:55 GMT
With the talent we have in this squad, our main strength is getting forward,but all that talent is wasted,when you have a defence minded manager in charge. If we had any of the managers from Spain,France,Germany say,we would now be Champions,instead of also runs yet again. Didier Deschamps was pretty negative this tournament and perhaps at the last World Cup too, he's another one who sets up not to lose and looks to his star players to provide the magic.
He does have a world cup to his name as manager in 2018 and of course as a player back in 98, but also a few narrow losses in there, to Portugal in Euro 2016 and to Argentina in the last World Cup.
I do wonder if he could've achieved more with the players at his disposal during his 12 years as the helm though, he's also not had to deal with the added pressure of a trophy-barren half a century or more.
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Post by adri2008 on Jul 15, 2024 8:44:57 GMT
Fine margins in international tournament football and it's a different skill set to club football. The manager has very little time to get the team to gel and a single mistake can be fatal. At club level, teams can have a shit August/September/October and get away with it.
Fresh ideas are definitely needed but I'm far from convinced we will simply roll teams over - it rarely happens at international level as the stakes are so high.
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Post by moon on Jul 15, 2024 8:45:48 GMT
That's an Englishman out of the running then. Redknapp was the last one to win a trophy. And there's the rub. For all the players we still don't produce world class managers. Southgate has done a brilliant job off the pitch, creating a 'Club England' mentality, and having a great relationship with fans and media. We must be very careful not to lose that with any replacement. But on the pitch I'm not confident Howe, Potter or Dyche would necessarily land the trophy that Southgate hasn't. That is a very depressing list, Potter has potential but I think he needs to prove it elsewhere first.
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England
Jul 15, 2024 9:09:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by J-Roar on Jul 15, 2024 9:09:43 GMT
And there's the rub. For all the players we still don't produce world class managers. Southgate has done a brilliant job off the pitch, creating a 'Club England' mentality, and having a great relationship with fans and media. We must be very careful not to lose that with any replacement. But on the pitch I'm not confident Howe, Potter or Dyche would necessarily land the trophy that Southgate hasn't. That is a very depressing list, Potter has potential but I think he needs to prove it elsewhere first. Why? Southgate didn't. He proved he could relegate a team and then fail in U21 tournaments.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jul 15, 2024 9:19:40 GMT
Apart from a lot of that team are world class and play for the best clubs in the world. Certainly, I think the calibre of team/club that our starting XI play for compared to the Spanish is way superior. They were a team though, they were coached. Our u21s are the current u21 Euro Champions Foden won an u20 World Cup. The players are generally the best. The manager we have should struggle to get a job in League One. Agree with this. I think we got to where we are because of the players and not the manager. The shrinking back into ourselves after we equalised was so infuriating. We were on the front foot, with momentum and he completely stifled it. We have one of, if not the best squads in world football with talent in every position. A stronger coach would have us winning trophies. Southgate must go now. I’m not sure i buy this best squad in world football stuff , Bellingham is proving to be moments player not one who can dictate the tempo of a game , Kane is passi g bus best at this level I suspect only a stones has real case for making a world eleven .
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Post by Pugsley on Jul 15, 2024 9:28:17 GMT
The end of the day Spain were better than us in the area of the pitch that mattered i.e. the centre of the park. Mainoo (who will be amazing) and Rice were dominated and outclassed.
You can have all the world class talent up front and any manager you like in the dugout but if you don't have the players in key areas then you are screwed. We couldn't get quality ball into our front players all night.
Time for Southgate to move on and let another bloke have a go.
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Post by SCFC92 on Jul 15, 2024 9:34:39 GMT
Agree with this. I think we got to where we are because of the players and not the manager. The shrinking back into ourselves after we equalised was so infuriating. We were on the front foot, with momentum and he completely stifled it. We have one of, if not the best squads in world football with talent in every position. A stronger coach would have us winning trophies. Southgate must go now. I’m not sure i buy this best squad in world football stuff , Bellingham is proving to be moments player not one who can dictate the tempo of a game , Kane is passi g bus best at this level I suspect only a stones has real case for making a world eleven . I think Kane is a player who shouldn't start for us, he slowed us down massively throughout the tournament, last night he kept dropping deep which removed our out ball, it was so frustrating to watch. Foden, Bellingham, Saka, Palmer, Stones, Walker, Mainoo (in 2/3 years he will be even better) and others, we have class oozing out of the squad, it just needs the right coach to blend them together. This bunch should be winning trophies.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Jul 15, 2024 9:36:39 GMT
Unlucky England, it does feel like we are never gonna quite make it to winning a trophy. I cant be bothered to hate on the manager or any of the players - they have tried their best and we just came up against a better team in Spain that deserved it.
Lots to ponder in the coming months:
Southgate - should he stay or go? Kane - was he just tired or have his legs gone? Bellingham - he is not a number 10, and needs to be involved in the game more playing deeper Foden - No goals or assists despite taking most free-kicks and corners. Yeah he moves well and finds space but never created anything with the ball.
PS. It feels better going out in the normal time rather than penalty shout-out
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Post by dirtygary69 on Jul 15, 2024 9:37:58 GMT
Well, today's miserable, isn't it? Fucking football.
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Post by adri2008 on Jul 15, 2024 9:39:00 GMT
Unlucky England, it does feel like we are never gonna quite make it to winning a trophy. I cant be bothered to hate on the manager or any of the players - they have tried their best and we just came up against a better team in Spain that deserved it. Lots to ponder in the coming months: Southgate - should he stay or go? Kane - was he just tired or have his legs gone? Bellingham - he is not a number 10, and needs to be involved in the game more playing deeper Foden - Awful tournament from him. No goals or assists despite taking most free-kicks and corners. Yeah he moves well and finds space but never created anything with the ball. PS. It feels better going out in the normal time rather than penalty shout-out We looked extremely toothless from all of our set pieces. Not sure if it was us missing Maguire's threat but I can't remember anything coming from any of our corners/free kicks.
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Post by adri2008 on Jul 15, 2024 9:39:56 GMT
Well, today's miserable, isn't it? Fucking football. I feel marginally better as we clearly got done by a better team rather than the usual hard luck story.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jul 15, 2024 9:43:17 GMT
The end of the day Spain were better than us in the area of the pitch that mattered i.e. the centre of the park. Mainoo (who will be amazing) and Rice were dominated and outclassed. You can have all the world class talent up front and any manager you like in the dugout but if you don't have the players in key areas then you are screwed. We couldn't get quality ball into our front players all night. Time for Southgate to move on and let another bloke have a go. This. We desperately need a dominant, calm and influential leader. Either in centre defence or preferably centre mid. A Rodri, a Keane, a Kante. I’m pinning my hopes on Wharton.
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England
Jul 15, 2024 9:54:10 GMT
via mobile
Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 15, 2024 9:54:10 GMT
We can talk about managers as much as we like and, although that is a valid discussion, for me the critical aspect is coaching and development from youth, including mindset. We don't produce genuinely world class players who can do it at international level and win things. Simple as that. Spain were brilliant from about 2008 to 2012 and look like they've produced another fine generation. They must be doing something right. We should be copying their approach. I firmly believe it's the players primarily, not the manager. We've had plenty imo, the problem we've had is having a manager that can build a functional team rather than a group of player thrown together, which includes making difficult decisions e.g. Gerrard or Lampard, dropping Kane or possibly Bellingham for the good of the team etc, I don't think we've had that.
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Post by foxysgloves on Jul 15, 2024 9:57:37 GMT
As gutted as I am I’m almost conditioned to England failing.
And as perverse as it sounds I think it’s just part of a much bigger story which culminates in England winning the World Cup.
It’s the Euros, the equivalent of the Carabao Cup. Nice to win but hardly the pinacle.
We are now genuine contenders for the World Cup. Our mindset has shifted. Players are becoming battle hardened.
The World Cup is coming home.
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Post by dirtygary69 on Jul 15, 2024 10:09:08 GMT
As gutted as I am I’m almost conditioned to England failing. And as perverse as it sounds I think it’s just part of a much bigger story which culminates in England winning the World Cup. It’s the Euros, the equivalent of the Carabao Cup. Nice to win but hardly the pinacle. We are now genuine contenders for the World Cup. Our mindset has shifted. Players are becoming battle hardened. The World Cup is coming home. We could and should be contenders for the next 3 or 4 big tournaments but there's always just that something, that excuse meaning it doesn't happen. That final step just seems beyond us. We have broken down certain barriers like winning penalty shoot-outs and actually getting to finals, but we can't get the job done.
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Post by Mint Berry Barks on Jul 15, 2024 10:21:46 GMT
Well, today's miserable, isn't it? Fucking football. I feel marginally better as we clearly got done by a better team rather than the usual hard luck story. It's weird right? Usually we're done over by a harsh decision or a bit of controversy, but last night we were just outplayed by a better team. Makes it a lot easier to cope with.
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Post by moon on Jul 15, 2024 10:28:12 GMT
That is a very depressing list, Potter has potential but I think he needs to prove it elsewhere first. Why? Southgate didn't. He proved he could relegate a team and then fail in U21 tournaments. I don't think Southgate should've got the job in the first place, although I commend him for how he turned things around, him staying in the role for so long has generally been a positive thing for England but I think he peaked in 2021 and doesn't look capable of going one step further.
Without a doubt he's one of the best England managers we've ever had, it's not been enough at the highest level though and I think he's well aware of that.
Potter is likely the best choice right now if we are to go with an Englishman, I'd have liked to see him be successful in the premier league or a top European league first though. If we go foreign then Klopp would be perfect, but I suspect he genuinely wants a break from football and won't be interested.
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Post by Mint Berry Barks on Jul 15, 2024 10:34:14 GMT
Why? Southgate didn't. He proved he could relegate a team and then fail in U21 tournaments. I don't think Southgate should've got the job in the first place, although I commend him for how he turned things around, him staying in the role for so long has generally been a positive thing for England but I think he peaked in 2021 and doesn't look capable of going one step further. Without a doubt he's one of the best England managers we've ever had, it's not been enough at the highest level though and I think he's well aware of that. Potter is likely the best choice right now if we are to go with an Englishman, I'd have liked to see him be successful in the premier league or a top European league first though. If we go foreign then Klopp would be perfect, but I suspect he genuinely wants a break from football and won't be interested.
Klopp would be absolutely perfect. He's got the talent and the personality for it - it's like you say, I suppose it depends on whether or not he wants to jump back into football so soon. Maybe an international gig where it's less day-to-day would suit him, who knows?
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Post by J-Roar on Jul 15, 2024 10:34:41 GMT
Why? Southgate didn't. He proved he could relegate a team and then fail in U21 tournaments. I don't think Southgate should've got the job in the first place, although I commend him for how he turned things around, him staying in the role for so long has generally been a positive thing for England but I think he peaked in 2021 and doesn't look capable of going one step further.
Without a doubt he's one of the best England managers we've ever had, it's not been enough at the highest level though and I think he's well aware of that.
Potter is likely the best choice right now if we are to go with an Englishman, I'd have liked to see him be successful in the premier league or a top European league first though. If we go foreign then Klopp would be perfect, but I suspect he genuinely wants a break from football and won't be interested.
Should have gone after losing to Italy. They didn't even qualify for next tournament which shows what a fuck up he made of the final. Genuinely fucked off that the FA blew our chances of winning at least one major title because Gareth is 'one of them'. A lucky general who, when it comes to it, isn't lucky enough.
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Post by starkiller on Jul 15, 2024 10:39:53 GMT
A complete anticlimax. We are hindered by a default style of play, and that is on Southgate. First half of games seem to be about running down the clock, with no sense of urgency. Only when panic sets in does something happen.
Spain are a much better team, no doubt. But some more technical nous could have been utilised.
Back to default after we equalised, I guess in the hope of extra time. But that lost us the game.
Time for change.
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Post by cheekymatt71 on Jul 15, 2024 11:10:07 GMT
I wouldnt be totally averse to Klopp if he wanted the job. Hes been in England for enough time to understand the players/culture/style of play.
We just need to steer clear of a Capello type of appointment (i.e. big foreign name with good reputation but no idea how to handle the English players).
Its clear that Southgate has had a massive effect on the mental side of english players in tournament football. We were too scared in the past.
We need to keep that mentality but yes add a more attacking manager into it.
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Post by adri2008 on Jul 15, 2024 11:17:31 GMT
I wouldnt be totally averse to Klopp if he wanted the job. Hes been in England for enough time to understand the players/culture/style of play. We just need to steer clear of a Capello type of appointment (i.e. big foreign name with good reputation but no idea how to handle the English players). Its clear that Southgate has had a massive effect on the mental side of english players in tournament football. We were too scared in the past. We need to keep that mentality but yes add a more attacking manager into it. Klopp would be the ideal appointment really. He understands English players but with the additional tactical nous which Southgate clearly lacks. He might well have zero interest in the role though and is obviously no guarantee of success. On the results front, it's difficult to better the past 6 years - are we going to call the next manager a failure if he fails to win the tournament(s)? - Expectations are now very high.
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Jul 15, 2024 11:22:51 GMT
We'd be daft not to at least enquire if Klopp wants it or not.
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Post by Somebody_Told_Me on Jul 15, 2024 11:28:35 GMT
I'm old enough to remember when we missed out on tournaments all together. World Cup 74 (only 3yrs so doesn't really count) but 78 an 94 Missing the Euros in 84 and 08
When we have got there we've been mainly crap apart from 90 and 96
So I'm a bit worried about Southgate leaving. Yes we can see lots of things we would all change. Not beating Italy was the real missed opportunity. It is fine lines though and I think he's got better through this tournament with subs etc.
I hate comments like win despite 'Southgate'. It's the players when we win and Southgate when we lose.
3 Semis in 4 tournaments is excellent, we would all have taken that before hand?
I don't see another England coach to come through. Potter, Howe or fucking Sean Dyche won't guarantee anything. I personally would let him do World Cup '26
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Post by redstriper on Jul 15, 2024 11:44:37 GMT
wrong thread
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Post by march4 on Jul 15, 2024 11:45:49 GMT
Klopp or Pep to take over if it was my decision.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jul 15, 2024 11:48:39 GMT
I'm old enough to remember when we missed out on tournaments all together. World Cup 74 (only 3yrs so doesn't really count) but 78 an 94 Missing the Euros in 84 and 08 When we have got there we've been mainly crap apart from 90 and 96 So I'm a bit worried about Southgate leaving. Yes we can see lots of things we would all change. Not beating Italy was the real missed opportunity. It is fine lines though and I think he's got better through this tournament with subs etc. I hate comments like win despite 'Southgate'. It's the players when we win and Southgate when we lose. 3 Semis in 4 tournaments is excellent, we would all have taken that before hand? I don't see another England coach to come through. Potter, Howe or fucking Sean Dyche won't guarantee anything. I personally would let him do World Cup '26 Really can't stand Howe - he sets up to cheat. Dyche would be a massive backward step and I don't think Potter is ready. I don't get the hate for Southgate either but I think it is time to move on. He's left a brilliant platform to build from but we need some fresh ideas to get us over the line.
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England
Jul 15, 2024 11:57:43 GMT
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Jul 15, 2024 11:57:43 GMT
Be interesting to see the views if people knew the choice was southgate or Howe As that's the real choice
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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 15, 2024 11:57:50 GMT
Not that it's the major issue - but another report of Bellingham not being popular in the squad
Daily Mail were saying something similar and was very arrogant ad not liked
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