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Post by lordb on Jun 28, 2022 21:17:08 GMT
Turkey agrees for Finland and Sweden to join NATO
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 29, 2022 0:31:30 GMT
Anybody smell anything slightly fishy about the timing? It appears there are three possibilities: > Russia blew up a shopping mall as NATO/G7 where discussing ramping up responses which would essentially be goading them to bring it on > Russia were aiming at something else in a densely populated civilian location and fucked it up at a very inopportune moment as NATO/G7 were meeting > Something else to justify the west becoming more involved in what could go massively pear shaped rapidly. There's something bigger afoot than Ukrainian sovereignty for me in all this. K’nell mate where’s this come from?? Basically fire thousands of missiles and see where they land attitudes, they don’t care one tiny bit where they land, Ukraine should do exactly the same by pinging whatever they feel like into densely populated areas of Russia to retaliate. Bizarre you’ve actually posted that. This pic and the new video has folks saying it's basically confirmed the missile that hit the shops was a Kh-22. Basically it's an old design from the 1960s that's supposedly an anti-ship missile. For ground attack they expect it to hit within about 500 m. So it looks like they just launched a crap old missile at a target near a load of civilians. They knew it could miss and kill civilians but just didn't give a shit. It could also be that Russia is running low on modern missiles.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 29, 2022 8:22:22 GMT
Here is part of Andrew Adonis's article today:
"The price of a Putin victory would be more war, not less
Now is the time to escalate the struggle to expel Russia from Ukraine
The Ukraine war is “our 1937 moment,” General Patrick Sanders, the new head of the army, said this week. I broadly agree. But the west still isn’t treating it as such. We need to grasp that the price of a Putin victory—or even a stalemate—is likely to be more war, not less.
The 1937 moment came after Hitler’s lawless European aggression and its destabilising effects had become clear, with the remilitarisation of the Rhineland, but before the successive Austrian, Czech and Polish invasions of the following two years.
Historical parallels are never exact. Putin has already violated far more international borders than had Hitler in 1937, with his invasions of Georgia, the Crimean peninsula and now Ukraine proper over the last 14 years. Despite this, given Russia’s economic weakness and military backwardness in conventional weapons, he is probably less of a general European threat. Especially in the era of the EU and Nato, with its American protective umbrella which didn’t exist in the 1930s.
But the existential danger Putin poses to the peace and security of Europe is nonetheless substantial. He has a nuclear arsenal, and the whole eastern border of Europe and Nato will be exposed to continuing Russian incursion or full-scale invasion if he emerges from Ukraine without a clear defeat. His fascist regime, like Hitler’s, promotes internal stability by external aggression, and it would be foolish to minimise his willingness and capacity to unleash it."
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 29, 2022 10:18:07 GMT
K’nell mate where’s this come from?? Basically fire thousands of missiles and see where they land attitudes, they don’t care one tiny bit where they land, Ukraine should do exactly the same by pinging whatever they feel like into densely populated areas of Russia to retaliate. Bizarre you’ve actually posted that. This pic and the new video has folks saying it's basically confirmed the missile that hit the shops was a Kh-22. Basically it's an old design from the 1960s that's supposedly an anti-ship missile. For ground attack they expect it to hit within about 500 m. So it looks like they just launched a crap old missile at a target near a load of civilians. They knew it could miss and kill civilians but just didn't give a shit. It could also be that Russia is running low on modern missiles. An alternative take, obviously it's for individuals to separate the wheat from chaff.....
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Post by noustie on Jun 29, 2022 10:49:10 GMT
This pic and the new video has folks saying it's basically confirmed the missile that hit the shops was a Kh-22. Basically it's an old design from the 1960s that's supposedly an anti-ship missile. For ground attack they expect it to hit within about 500 m. So it looks like they just launched a crap old missile at a target near a load of civilians. They knew it could miss and kill civilians but just didn't give a shit. It could also be that Russia is running low on modern missiles. An alternative take, obviously it's for individuals to separate the wheat from chaff..... The propoganda in this thing is absolutely off the charts mental. The US have apparently killed 400,000 civillians in direct conflict since 9/11 but it's usually their fault for hiding in civilian areas the bastards: watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians Saw this on AJ earlier too regarding Ukraine: The United Kingdom’s defence ministry says there is a real possibility Russia’s missile that hit the shopping centre in Kremenchuk was intended for a nearby target.However, the BBC fact checking article makes no reference of it - so who checks the fact check or updates it when new info comes out? www.bbc.co.uk/news/61967480Essentially though the truth doesn’t matter as the entirety of western media have labelled it a terrorist attack with the nuance of the situation completely lost. Firing dodgy as f**k old missiles at a target near to a shopping centre is obviously reprehensible but if it was a munitions depot behind it then the Ukrainians have made a conscious decision to store them there knowing what the Russians are like and capable of. Again if the munitions dump was there they have used the shopping centre as a shield and then weaponised it when Russia have fucked it up. Describing this as a terrorist attack, along with the timing , is the catalyst in 300,000 NATO troops likely to be deployed instead of 40,000 – this could literally be the trigger for things going nuclear. There were numerous stepping stones in getting there but if this thing goes massively pear shaped from here yesterday feels like a big event. That again doesn’t excuse what the Russians are doing but the continuing attempts to paint Mad Vlad as Darth Vader, Sleepy Joe as Obi Wan and the west in general as the rebel alliance just doesn’t stack up for me.
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Post by noustie on Jun 29, 2022 11:04:36 GMT
Personally I think we're at risk of conflating evil and stupidity. Even taking on face value they're evil enough to on purpose bomb the fuck out of a shopping centre why pick the date and time the west are having a massive meeting to decide how much increased their response will be? Aside from giving the west a 'fuck you bring it on' I can't see anything at all they are looking to acheive from following that strategy - how would it improve the Russian position? And if it's purely Mad Vlad Bad bastard poking at the west to escalate would he have not done it before when interest was waivering? When Russia simply does not make sense, sometimes it's Russia being Russia, sometimes it's deliberate. Putin has used cognitive dissonance as a form of control and influence for years to sow distrust, confusion and distraction. In the middle of it all, Putin appears to remain strong and focussed, exactly as he wants to be seen in a world that makes little sense. I don’t think cognitive dissonance is restricted to Russia though in fairness and I would suggest we’re experiencing it through our media too. From how it is being covered, and absorbed verbatim, you’d think the world were on our side but the other members of BRICS seem conflicted at best with China in their own media, with their own cognitive dissonance, deeply hostile towards the US and by association the UK; India are still buying large amounts of oil and weapons; South Africa abstained because of its ties to Soviet’s in ending apartheid and is still pushing for diplomacy and; Brazil had a phone call with Russia yesterday to strengthen relations not diminish them. We’re supposed to be in a position of strength too yet yesterday we were still discussing ways of sanctioning fuel, gold etc to avoid countries getting around the current arrangements which is still therefore funding his war machine and asking, not telling or demanding, to relieve the port blockades of Ukraine to ease the pressure on global food supplies or risk international starvation. Doesn’t sound a particularly strong position to me and appears Mad Vlad is still holding a few cards rather than being a maniac without strategy.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jun 29, 2022 11:56:22 GMT
When Russia simply does not make sense, sometimes it's Russia being Russia, sometimes it's deliberate. Putin has used cognitive dissonance as a form of control and influence for years to sow distrust, confusion and distraction. In the middle of it all, Putin appears to remain strong and focussed, exactly as he wants to be seen in a world that makes little sense. I don’t think cognitive dissonance is restricted to Russia though in fairness and I would suggest we’re experiencing it through our media too. From how it is being covered, and absorbed verbatim, you’d think the world were on our side but the other members of BRICS seem conflicted at best with China in their own media, with their own cognitive dissonance, deeply hostile towards the US and by association the UK; India are still buying large amounts of oil and weapons; South Africa abstained because of its ties to Soviet’s in ending apartheid and is still pushing for diplomacy and; Brazil had a phone call with Russia yesterday to strengthen relations not diminish them. We’re supposed to be in a position of strength too yet yesterday we were still discussing ways of sanctioning fuel, gold etc to avoid countries getting around the current arrangements which is still therefore funding his war machine and asking, not telling or demanding, to relieve the port blockades of Ukraine to ease the pressure on global food supplies or risk international starvation. Doesn’t sound a particularly strong position to me and appears Mad Vlad is still holding a few cards rather than being a maniac without strategy. I disagree that we are experiencing cognitive dissonance from our own side, as we are not being fed stories of our own ineptitude. The point you make that we are being constantly being given the impression that the world is against Russia is straight forward mild propaganda.
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Post by noustie on Jun 29, 2022 12:46:53 GMT
I don’t think cognitive dissonance is restricted to Russia though in fairness and I would suggest we’re experiencing it through our media too. From how it is being covered, and absorbed verbatim, you’d think the world were on our side but the other members of BRICS seem conflicted at best with China in their own media, with their own cognitive dissonance, deeply hostile towards the US and by association the UK; India are still buying large amounts of oil and weapons; South Africa abstained because of its ties to Soviet’s in ending apartheid and is still pushing for diplomacy and; Brazil had a phone call with Russia yesterday to strengthen relations not diminish them. We’re supposed to be in a position of strength too yet yesterday we were still discussing ways of sanctioning fuel, gold etc to avoid countries getting around the current arrangements which is still therefore funding his war machine and asking, not telling or demanding, to relieve the port blockades of Ukraine to ease the pressure on global food supplies or risk international starvation. Doesn’t sound a particularly strong position to me and appears Mad Vlad is still holding a few cards rather than being a maniac without strategy. I disagree that we are experiencing cognitive dissonance from our own side, as we are not being fed stories of our own ineptitude. The point you make that we are being constantly being given the impression that the world is against Russia is straight forward mild propaganda. Would you concede there is cognitive dissonance in general in our response to the media? There has been wide spread gnashing of teeth about bias particularly the Beeb from both leavers and remainers; left and right and; yes and no up here yet the masses accept their reporting of this situation without considering it's accuracy.
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Post by OldStokie on Jun 29, 2022 13:15:45 GMT
Just to clarify that many of us actually are aware that the Western MSM can manipulate the truth, but we're also capable of working things out. As an example, Russia accused UKR of being Nazis. Well, most of those in the Azov Regiment are/were of that leaning. But confined to UKR territories, that's a UKR issue and has nothing to do with Russia. The Azov regiment didn't invade Russia. They were fighting a legitimate war against forces occupying UKR territory that was illegally occupied by Russia in 2014 and also defending even more territory that was being taken over by the Invaders.
As far as this latest atrocity on the shopping mall is concerned, even if UKR had military installations near that mall, the Russians, knowing that the mall would be full of civilians, should have used a precision missile to target the military installations and not an out of date cruise missile that had a error margin of 500 metres. So why didn't they use a precision weapon? There are only three answers to this. 1) They're running out of really precise weapons of that nature. 2) They couldn't care less if it was inaccurate. 3) They targeted the mall deliberately. Personally, I reckon 1* is probably right to a degree, 2* is certainly true, and 3* is very likely considering this strike was done to put two fingers up to the G7 that was meeting at that exact time.
OS.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Jun 29, 2022 13:42:27 GMT
I heard that the Ukrainian government outlawed the opposition, doesn’t sound very democratic if true.
Anyone know if this is factual?
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Post by noustie on Jun 29, 2022 14:07:08 GMT
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 29, 2022 14:38:17 GMT
That again doesn’t excuse what the Russians are doing but the continuing attempts to paint Mad Vlad as Darth Vader, Sleepy Joe as Obi Wan and the west in general as the rebel alliance just doesn’t stack up for me. How do you feel about the Russian siege of Mariupol? Anywhere from 10-50,000 dead civilians. Let's say you have 100 blame tokens so share the fault, how do you split them up?
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 29, 2022 14:50:40 GMT
I heard that the Ukrainian government outlawed the opposition, doesn’t sound very democratic if true. Anyone know if this is factual? I'd be worried about Zelenskyy going too far too, but haven't seen anything suggesting that yet. Some of the parties, those that support Putin and the Russian invasion, are banned, e.g. the chairman of the largest banned party is godfather to one of Putin's kids. Ukraine and US intel also claim he was working with the Russian military and Putin planned to install him as dictator of Ukraine. It's not like banning Labour or the Tories: there are lots of parties and combined the banned ones won about 50 of 450 seats at the last election. The pro-Russian-culture party Nash Krai supports Ukraine and is not banned. So from the outside it looks similar to us banning British Nazi-aligned parties during WWII.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 29, 2022 14:57:04 GMT
Oh Italy! Italians tried to send three modern howitzers but Naples traffic police stopped them. Drivers weren't qualified and didn't have papers.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jun 29, 2022 15:49:16 GMT
I disagree that we are experiencing cognitive dissonance from our own side, as we are not being fed stories of our own ineptitude. The point you make that we are being constantly being given the impression that the world is against Russia is straight forward mild propaganda. Would you concede there is cognitive dissonance in general in our response to the media? There has been wide spread gnashing of teeth about bias particularly the Beeb from both leavers and remainers; left and right and; yes and no up here yet the masses accept their reporting of this situation without considering it's accuracy. My main point was about Putin/Russia and therefore I was drawing a comparison with the UK/Johnson in so much that the last thing Johnson can afford is criticism of his leadership as he is not only a weak leader, he is seen to be weak too. Putin is known for creating dissent about his leadership and then discrediting the dissent that he started.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Jun 29, 2022 17:02:12 GMT
I heard that the Ukrainian government outlawed the opposition, doesn’t sound very democratic if true. Anyone know if this is factual? I'd be worried about Zelenskyy going too far too, but haven't seen anything suggesting that yet. Some of the parties, those that support Putin and the Russian invasion, are banned, e.g. the chairman of the largest banned party is godfather to one of Putin's kids. Ukraine and US intel also claim he was working with the Russian military and Putin planned to install him as dictator of Ukraine. It's not like banning Labour or the Tories: there are lots of parties and combined the banned ones won about 50 of 450 seats at the last election. The pro-Russian-culture party Nash Krai supports Ukraine and is not banned. So from the outside it looks similar to us banning British Nazi-aligned parties during WWII. If this (as posted above) is correct, I’d suggest he’s gone too far already mronline.org/2022/03/24/opposition-political-parties-banned-in-ukraine-and-unified-information-policy-imposed/
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 29, 2022 20:11:43 GMT
You love to see it!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 29, 2022 20:14:35 GMT
An alternative take, obviously it's for individuals to separate the wheat from chaff..... The propoganda in this thing is absolutely off the charts mental. The US have apparently killed 400,000 civillians in direct conflict since 9/11 but it's usually their fault for hiding in civilian areas the bastards: watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians Saw this on AJ earlier too regarding Ukraine: The United Kingdom’s defence ministry says there is a real possibility Russia’s missile that hit the shopping centre in Kremenchuk was intended for a nearby target.However, the BBC fact checking article makes no reference of it - so who checks the fact check or updates it when new info comes out? www.bbc.co.uk/news/61967480Essentially though the truth doesn’t matter as the entirety of western media have labelled it a terrorist attack with the nuance of the situation completely lost. Firing dodgy as f**k old missiles at a target near to a shopping centre is obviously reprehensible but if it was a munitions depot behind it then the Ukrainians have made a conscious decision to store them there knowing what the Russians are like and capable of. Again if the munitions dump was there they have used the shopping centre as a shield and then weaponised it when Russia have fucked it up. Describing this as a terrorist attack, along with the timing , is the catalyst in 300,000 NATO troops likely to be deployed instead of 40,000 – this could literally be the trigger for things going nuclear. There were numerous stepping stones in getting there but if this thing goes massively pear shaped from here yesterday feels like a big event. That again doesn’t excuse what the Russians are doing but the continuing attempts to paint Mad Vlad as Darth Vader, Sleepy Joe as Obi Wan and the west in general as the rebel alliance just doesn’t stack up for me. Going nuclear? Give over.!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 29, 2022 20:41:46 GMT
Just to clarify that many of us actually are aware that the Western MSM can manipulate the truth, but we're also capable of working things out. As an example, Russia accused UKR of being Nazis. Well, most of those in the Azov Regiment are/were of that leaning. But confined to UKR territories, that's a UKR issue and has nothing to do with Russia. The Azov regiment didn't invade Russia. They were fighting a legitimate war against forces occupying UKR territory that was illegally occupied by Russia in 2014 and also defending even more territory that was being taken over by the Invaders. As far as this latest atrocity on the shopping mall is concerned, even if UKR had military installations near that mall, the Russians, knowing that the mall would be full of civilians, should have used a precision missile to target the military installations and not an out of date cruise missile that had a error margin of 500 metres. So why didn't they use a precision weapon? There are only three answers to this. 1) They're running out of really precise weapons of that nature. 2) They couldn't care less if it was inaccurate. 3) They targeted the mall deliberately. Personally, I reckon 1* is probably right to a degree, 2* is certainly true, and 3* is very likely considering this strike was done to put two fingers up to the G7 that was meeting at that exact time. OS. Anyone defending it needs to have a word with themselves imo. Your post is spot on. And they’ve done it time and time again. It’s like they’ve forgotten the theatre that said “children inside” so it wasn’t bombed. They do it deliberately. It’s what they do.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 29, 2022 21:20:46 GMT
Just to clarify that many of us actually are aware that the Western MSM can manipulate the truth, but we're also capable of working things out. As an example, Russia accused UKR of being Nazis. Well, most of those in the Azov Regiment are/were of that leaning. But confined to UKR territories, that's a UKR issue and has nothing to do with Russia. The Azov regiment didn't invade Russia. They were fighting a legitimate war against forces occupying UKR territory that was illegally occupied by Russia in 2014 and also defending even more territory that was being taken over by the Invaders. As far as this latest atrocity on the shopping mall is concerned, even if UKR had military installations near that mall, the Russians, knowing that the mall would be full of civilians, should have used a precision missile to target the military installations and not an out of date cruise missile that had a error margin of 500 metres. So why didn't they use a precision weapon? There are only three answers to this. 1) They're running out of really precise weapons of that nature. 2) They couldn't care less if it was inaccurate. 3) They targeted the mall deliberately. Personally, I reckon 1* is probably right to a degree, 2* is certainly true, and 3* is very likely considering this strike was done to put two fingers up to the G7 that was meeting at that exact time. OS. Anyone defending it needs to have a word with themselves imo. Your post is spot on. And they’ve done it time and time again. It’s like they’ve forgotten the theatre that said “children inside” so it wasn’t bombed. They do it deliberately. It’s what they do. Also, they chose to do it in the daytime when civilians would be around, rather than at night. The alleged military target wasn't even a group of tanks or planes or something that could move quickly. It would have been there 8 hours later when people weren't shopping. The guy from Kharkiv I follow has made it really obvious - the Russians are just murdering civilians because they don't give a shit.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 29, 2022 21:21:48 GMT
Anyone defending it needs to have a word with themselves imo. Your post is spot on. And they’ve done it time and time again. It’s like they’ve forgotten the theatre that said “children inside” so it wasn’t bombed. They do it deliberately. It’s what they do. Also, they chose to do it in the daytime when civilians would be around, rather than at night. The alleged military target wasn't even a group of tanks or planes or something that could move quickly. It would have been there 8 hours later when people weren't shopping. The guy from Kharkiv I follow has made it really obvious - the Russians are just murdering civilians because they don't give a shit. And that’s been obvious from the get go. Takes all sorts to defend them I guess though.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 29, 2022 21:50:34 GMT
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Post by questionable on Jun 30, 2022 5:30:30 GMT
I heard that the Ukrainian government outlawed the opposition, doesn’t sound very democratic if true. Anyone know if this is factual? Isn’t one of the parties run by one of Putin’s daughters godfathers, who by all accounts was pencilled in to become head of UKR?
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jun 30, 2022 5:44:14 GMT
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 30, 2022 6:57:27 GMT
It’s pretty obvious what winning for the Russians would have looked like… They’d have been in Kiev inside two weeks with a new pliant regime installed and Ukraine brought back into the Russian fold. That’s what they set out to do. And what they failed to achieve. Instead, they’ve entered into a war of attrition that will cripple them (and, of course, destroy huge swathes of Ukraine). The ongoing cost, in people, resources and money, is not sustainable. Not to mention politically, economically and culturally. Russia is just digging a massive hole for itself in Ukraine. The only thing it’s winning is the right to sit in the hole.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 30, 2022 7:01:18 GMT
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Jun 30, 2022 7:41:32 GMT
I heard that the Ukrainian government outlawed the opposition, doesn’t sound very democratic if true. Anyone know if this is factual? Isn’t one of the parties run by one of Putin’s daughters godfathers, who by all accounts was pencilled in to become head of UKR? Maybe, what about the other 10?
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Post by andystokey on Jun 30, 2022 7:43:11 GMT
If Bernie Ecclestone is willing to take a bullet for Putin, I reckon we should give him one.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 30, 2022 8:24:13 GMT
What Russia strives for and what Russia are ultimately happy to come away with are two different things that's true.........
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 30, 2022 8:26:08 GMT
What Russia strives for and what Russia are ultimately happy to come away with are two different things that's true......... Their goals have reduced from about a week in. They've lost plenty of land that they had conquered. Bolton is living in cloud cuckoo land.
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