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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 5, 2022 21:17:39 GMT
I get Russian bots on Twitter but I presume they don’t care much about the Oatcake.
I can’t quite believe anyone is daft enough to believe any of that what potter84 has put.
As the Russians try to “denazify” Ukraine using mercenaries named after Hitler’s favourite composer.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 6, 2022 2:54:54 GMT
Ukraine is desperate for mobile guns like this and the last week or so has been good news. Of the newest types, France is sending 12 more (after 6 earlier), Germany finished training Ukrainians and coded software to work with Ukrainian artillery control for 12 German/Dutch ones, and Poland is sending 18 Polish Krabs too. 20 slightly older Norwegian Paladins are already there and anywhere from 12-64 Belgian ones are on their way. We'll have to wait and see how it turns out, but military nerds are saying that with the right radars and anti-air protection each of them should take out multiple Russian vehicles. The Ukrainians are training more and more people to use them, so hopefully we'll be talking about hundreds by Autumn.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 6, 2022 6:36:12 GMT
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Post by lordb on Jun 6, 2022 7:12:14 GMT
Ukraine is desperate for mobile guns like this and the last week or so has been good news. Of the newest types, France is sending 12 more (after 6 earlier), Germany finished training Ukrainians and coded software to work with Ukrainian artillery control for 12 German/Dutch ones, and Poland is sending 18 Polish Krabs too. 20 slightly older Norwegian Paladins are already there and anywhere from 12-64 Belgian ones are on their way. We'll have to wait and see how it turns out, but military nerds are saying that with the right radars and anti-air protection each of them should take out multiple Russian vehicles. The Ukrainians are training more and more people to use them, so hopefully we'll be talking about hundreds by Autumn. All this was unthinkable before the war
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Post by Clem Fandango on Jun 6, 2022 7:57:31 GMT
I see they lost another general yesterday. Mental. Depending on who you believe it’s at least 4 and potentially as high as 14 they’ve lost since the start of this.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jun 6, 2022 11:51:28 GMT
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 6, 2022 15:17:11 GMT
I'm amazed they've still got a foothold a week after it seemed lost. The best case would be to keep luring Russians in and then blowing them up but it's scary for Ukraine since the bridges could get blown and trap their soldiers.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 6, 2022 20:05:11 GMT
I'm amazed they've still got a foothold a week after it seemed lost. The best case would be to keep luring Russians in and then blowing them up but it's scary for Ukraine since the bridges could get blown and trap their soldiers. Yeah it’s crazy that it’s taken them over a month to not take such a small city yet.
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Jun 6, 2022 20:21:14 GMT
The Russians are making slow progress but progress nonetheless. They appear to be willing to grin this out at significant cost. It doesn’t look like they are going to stop anytime soon. Didn’t the Ukrainians say that the war would be over by August but now they are saying the end of the year.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 7, 2022 3:44:27 GMT
The Russians are making slow progress but progress nonetheless. They appear to be willing to grin this out at significant cost. It doesn’t look like they are going to stop anytime soon. Didn’t the Ukrainians say that the war would be over by August but now they are saying the end of the year. If Putin wants to keep going then what would stop him this year? I'd guess the only things would be a serious military defeat or a tidal wave of western weapons on their way. By sometime in summer Ukraine should have called up and trained more soldiers than Russia, so a counterattack somewhere could happen if they don't lose too many. The tidal wave of western weapons depends on the November US elections and things don't look good for Ukraine right now.
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 7, 2022 4:00:49 GMT
This article says Russia flipped from surplus to deficit in April. The war cost an extra $5bn/month and Putin had about $155bn left in the "rainy day fund" so it looks like he could afford another three years... I've no idea whether war costs will go up or down, but their tax receipts will hopefully fall by the end of the year so they will be facing financial ruin in 2023 if they want to keep raping and murdering Ukrainian civilians.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jun 8, 2022 16:12:19 GMT
In the absence of John R Bruning, here's the latest assessment by John's friend, John Parshall.
I want to talk today about what’s going on at Severodonetsk, and how it feels to me relative to the big picture. Warning: Long post (1,400 words) Typical Disclaimer: WWII historian, mostly coming at this from a historical perspective, using analogs to that conflict, along with whatever else I know about modern Russian and Ukrainian weaponry, tactics, etc. Heavily informed by opinions of folks like Tom Cooper, Stefan Korshak, Perun, War on the Rocks, Institute for the Study of War, etc. TL;DR: 1) the importance of Severodonetsk is being blown **way** out of proportion, 2) I think Russia has basically shot its wad, and 3) Ukraine’s got this, if it can just hang on.
A lot of people in the U.S., and certainly in the media, have really wringing their hands over what’s going on around Severodonetsk. Breathless phrases like “inflection point” and the Ukrainians being faced with “stark choices,” and blah blah blah are being bandied about, as if this fight is going to be crucial to the outcome of the war. I just don’t see it that way. Win or lose at Severodonetsk, Russia is running out of steam. And even if they win at Severodonetsk and occupy the city, I just don’t think the Russian Army has the oomph to follow it up in any sort of meaningful way.
To me, this ongoing frontal head-banging simply illustrates the continuing degradation of Russian combat power, which in turn is driving a constant diminution of Russian operational objectives. Plan A was thunder runs into Ukraine from four different directions, aimed at capturing the whole country outright. That failed catastrophically. Plan B was taking Kharkiv. Nyet. Plan C was a large envelopment of the majority of Eastern Ukraine. Nyet. Plan D was a smaller encirclement by trying to drive down from Izyum and up from Donetsk. Nyet. Plan E was a still smaller encirclement down from Lyman and up from Horlivka. Nyet. Plan F was supposed to be driving down across the Siverski Donets river from the north, and up from Popasna in the south, but the northern pincer’s bridgeheads have been beaten back umpty times. And now Plan G is continuing to widen the Poposna breach (which has been gradually working, mind you), accompanied by a frontal assault into Severodonetsk (which is also gradually “working”)(whatever “working” means).
There’s no question that Russian forces have also made grudging gains around Izyum, Lyman, and Horlivka. President Zelenksy is absolutely right in agonizing over the fact that 20% of Ukraine is now under the Russian boot. Furthermore, (as I predicted) fighting in the east has meant that Russian airpower is at least marginally more effective, and the logistical problems for the Ukrainians have increased. This area is largely beyond the coverage of NATO intel assets (like the P-8 Poseidon naval surveillance plane that played a role in helping the Ukrainians scupper Moskva), meaning that UKR probably isn’t receiving the benefit of as much real-time intel from the West. And Tom Cooper is reporting that the electronic warfare environment is becoming more difficult there as well, meaning that UKR is having more problems operating drones, which is of course super important not only for delivering direct fire from Bayraktars, but also as coordinating counter-battery fire for their arty. So, there’s no question that the Ukrainian struggle in the east is incredibly difficult at the moment, and that the Ukrainian Army is under tremendous strain. But they aren’t showing signs of buckling.
Oh the flip, the Russians are employing large numbers of Chechens and Luhansk People's Republic (LPR) troops at Severodonetsk. Why? Because 1) Chechen and LPR body bags don’t bother folks back home in Russia, and 2) because the Russian Army remains very, very short of infantry. We have confirmed sightings of older hardware like T-62 main battle tanks (a design which dates from the late 1950s) being fed to LPR units. And while the Ukrainians may have retreated from the bulk of Severodonetsk a few days ago, they also retained the ability to counterattack and reclaim a substantial portion of the town, giving the Chechens a bloody nose in the process.
Meanwhile, another Russian general was killed in combat a couple days ago. Five other generals of various flavors were apparently fired last week. There have been reports from UKR intel that Gen. Valery Gerasimov, the Russian Army’s Chief of Staff, has been “suspended.” He certainly didn’t attend the Victory Day parade a month ago, and he damn well ought to have been there. Likewise, there have been unconfirmed reports that Gen. Dvornikov, the new supreme commander for the Ukrainian “Special Military Operation” has either been given until 10 June to completely capture Severodonetsk, or has indeed already been sacked and replaced by Gen. Gennady Zhidko. Either way, he hasn’t been seen publicly in two weeks. Put all those hints together, and the picture that emerges is not one that either smells like happiness in the Kremlin, or impending Russian victory.
Now zoom up to the big picture. Severodonetsk is the 42nd largest city in Ukraine. Basically, the entire remaining ground power of the once-feared Russian Army is focused on a life-or-death struggle to capture a town the size of Dearborn, MI, or Green Bay, WI. Now, obviously, inflection points can happen at unimportant locales (Guadalcanal comes to mind). But this doesn’t smell that way to me, because 1) UKR isn’t going to let its forces be surrounded and wiped out, and 2) the RFA doesn’t seem to have the oomph necessary to exploit a victory. Even if they capture Severodonetsk, where do they go from there? The closest major city is Kramatorsk, but that’s 45 miles further west. They ain’t gettin’ there, not at this rate. To me it smells very much like the Russian offensive is culminating.
I also smell real parallels with German Sixth Army’s plight in Stalingrad. In September ’42, the German objective was capturing Stalingrad outright; by October, the Germans were forced to give that up, and instead shifted focus to capturing the northern factory district; by November, they were focused on capturing individual factories, and finally on the goal of capturing *individual buildings* within those factories! At which point, you have to ask yourself what possible effect capturing Hall 4 in the Krasnyi Oktyabr factory would have had on the larger strategic outlook for Germany’s war? Answer: none. But that’s what Hitler was fixated on, because it was the only objective left amidst the ruins of his broader summer ’42 campaign that still offered something that felt like a tangible victory. In my opinion, Putin is doing the same thing: over-focusing on a smallish city in the middle of the Donbas rustbelt, and then hoping that by having seized Luhansk oblast he can declare some kind of victory. But the whole premise is asinine in terms of blood and treasure expended.
(Note that it is possible that if Russia manages to have (temporary) possession of Luhansk, they may try to formally annex it and Donetsk oblasts into Russia, which would have the effect of ostensibly placing those territories under Russia’s nuclear umbrella. However, my sense is that that gambit would not be effective, and that we are already telling the Russians behind the scenes that not only won’t we recognize the legality of that move, nobody else will, either, and if you think you can get away with then using nukes to defend Luhansk, be aware that we will treat that as using nukes against Ukraine instead… and that you don’t wanna do that for a whole host of unpleasant reasons. At least, that’s my guess about the nature of the back-channel conversations.)
Meanwhile, slooooooowly, the productive spigots are turning on in the NATO alliance. It’s taking 2-3 months from when promises of Western equipment are being made, to when they’re actually being delivered. So, Stefan Korshak reports that with respect to the German Panzerhaubitz systems that Ukraine will be receiving, their Ukrainian crews have now gotten done with their classroom training, and are ready to start field training. We know that a fair number of M777 howitzers are now in country, and more are coming, but some have already been lost, and more ammunition is needed. Welcome to war. But while this pipeline feels agonizingly slow to get revved up, note that Russia’s main tank factory at Nizhni-Tagil isn’t producing anything because it can’t get parts. The Russians are running out of precision munitions. Message: Ukraine’s munitions pipeline is eventually going to be markedly superior to Russia’s. We ain’t there yet, not by a long shot. But if Ukraine can hang on, I’m pretty confident the balance of firepower is going to change.
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Post by Gods on Jun 8, 2022 23:59:29 GMT
This is exactly what I feared, the west getting bore with this war. Ukraine
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Post by wannabee on Jun 9, 2022 2:53:48 GMT
😊 I think that French is still used Internationally as the Diplomatic language, but English is otherwise the most widely used. For example on all regular Passenger and Commercial airline flights, English is used, except for Russian internal flights. And as regards pride in their heritage, perhaps not so much. I went to the Military Museum in Paris a few years back and it was all very impressive. As you enter the main hall there was a static display of lifesize waxwork figures of mounted Soldiers on Horseback in period military dress, and information plaques detailing the history and battle honours of the Regiments of the Line. Throughout the whole place I couldn't find a single mention of Waterloo! They say history is always written by the victor. Each country has their own version. According to Russian history they beat Hitler and the western front was a sideshow! Waterloo was one of the biggest victories in German history, when Blucher came to the rescue of the British who were getting thrashed by Napoleon. Another massive victory in German history is Dunkirk when Germany drove the British empire forces into the sea. I find your dismissal of that Russian claim rather sanctimonious Its claim is very legitably supported as accurate by many eminent historians I'll quote just one from this article www.thedailybeast.com/wwiis-greatest-battle-how-kursk-changed-the-warHaving personally visited Belgorod in 1990 soon after Peristroka and being taken to the Museum which commemorates the Battle of Kursk and later the actual Battlefield itself it still brings chills to me for its absolute bleakness and absence of any living thing in its environs I reflect on how our Russian "Handlers" who accompanied us on the overnight train from Moscow and the Local delegates we met who were very much at pains to claim Ukrainian heritage and pride they were living in the bread basket of the Soviet Union and share copious amounts of Vodka I wonder how they are feeling now on this shitshow What I do know for sure is they were in no doubt proud of their forefathers decisive intervention in defeating Hitler
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Post by wannabee on Jun 9, 2022 4:01:27 GMT
Very well set out what the situation is but I'd take you to task on what you see the future to be. That will not be decided by Zelensky; it will be decided by those who are behind the proxy war he's fighting. This is no longer just a war between Ukraine and Russia as it was when Russia took over Crimea, it's become a battle between NATO countries and Russia... especially the US and the UK. Also the West, and especially Turkey, will not allow Russia to use the Black Sea as it's own waters. At a guess, even though Russia might take the Donbas Region, I reckon that short strip of land down to Odessa and egress from it could be the turning point in this war. And the weapons Nato has supplied to Ukraine are small fry compared to what could be sent to them. Looking long term, Russia has already lost the war. By 2030, if not sooner, no oil and gas will be going to Europe. In ten years time, China will have changed considerably towards renewable energy, as will most of the world, including India. Russia has very little to prop up its ailing economy and when its oil and gas is no longer needed, apart from its nuclear weapons, they're done for as a world body. What Putin has done is to commit suicide. If he's removed from power, then Russia might have a future. OS. Apologies if my post didn't make it clear that I too think Zelensky is merely a pawn in the game and will do exactly what he is told to do when the time is right. He will be rewarded handsomely for it I agree that the relatively thin strip from Mariupol down to Odessa will be more difficult to defend but when soon not being distracted in Donbas will put more resources there. I expect Russia will attempt to build a buffer zone outside using a scorched earth no man's land zone if you like. The logistical problems Russia encountered in the original more ambitious plan to take over the whole of Ukraine should not apply as it can easily be supplied from Crimea I agree and said the next melting pot may well be in the Black Sea. US UK EU and NATO will have to go on a bit of a charm offensive to woo Erdoğan We will see how the wind is blowing quite soon with how Sweden and Finland assesion to NATO goes. In particular Turkeys request to have Kurdish dissidents extradited from Sweden. The US had no problem Fucking Off the Kurds before so who knows. Its not that long ago Putin and Erdoğan were best buddies before they spectacularly fell out over Syria they might kiss and make up if its in both their interests Yesterday the G7 made a commitment to stop subsidises for Fossil Fuel exploitation This was a reaffirment from COP26 The day before Rishi doubled the incentives for Fossil Fuel exploitation in North Sea and no incentives for alternative fuels There are a lot of words and very little action Each Country has a reason for exceptions Nibyism if you like I can't see Fossil Fuel being phased out anytime soon Some efforts are being made in Li-ion Technology with China leading the way with 79% of current World Capacity UK has 0.3% Projections for massive increased capacity to 2030 shows China's share drop to 65% with UK at 0.8% I guess UK is finally getting out of Vehicle Production I have more faith in New Technology (whatever it may be) solving Climate Warming issues than Countries Worldwide stopping what they are doing Predictably and to no one's surprise the carve up and rehabilitation of Russia has begun At the UN"s request, Turkey has begun negotiations with Russia on how to get Ukrainian Grain out of Ukraine Did anyone invite Ukraine to these talks about their produce? Thought not As they kicked off their meetings in Ankara drinking Turkish Coffee Medium Sweet Russia's Foreign Minister Lavrov and Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut thought it would be a good idea to lift Sanctions on Russia. Mevlut thought it was a "Legitimate" request The major obstacle of course to get "Ukraine's" grain out of Odessa is that Ukraine has mined the port and is stubbornly refusing to demine Ukraine's rational is that their Grain is one of their biggest bargaining chips and if they demine Odessa to allow its export Russia will steam into Odessa and it'll be game over We shall see how this plays out My money is on Ukraine being Fucked Over by International pressure under the guise of preventing a humanitarian tragedy due to Food Shortages www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/06/08/ukrainian-grain-crisis-turkey-says-the-lifting-of-russia-sanctions-legitimate-in-lavrov-visit_5986076_4.html
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jun 9, 2022 6:32:35 GMT
Apologies if my post didn't make it clear that I too think Zelensky is merely a pawn in the game and will do exactly what he is told to do when the time is right. He will be rewarded handsomely for it I agree that the relatively thin strip from Mariupol down to Odessa will be more difficult to defend but when soon not being distracted in Donbas will put more resources there. I expect Russia will attempt to build a buffer zone outside using a scorched earth no man's land zone if you like. The logistical problems Russia encountered in the original more ambitious plan to take over the whole of Ukraine should not apply as it can easily be supplied from Crimea I agree and said the next melting pot may well be in the Black Sea. US UK EU and NATO will have to go on a bit of a charm offensive to woo Erdoğan We will see how the wind is blowing quite soon with how Sweden and Finland assesion to NATO goes. In particular Turkeys request to have Kurdish dissidents extradited from Sweden. The US had no problem Fucking Off the Kurds before so who knows. Its not that long ago Putin and Erdoğan were best buddies before they spectacularly fell out over Syria they might kiss and make up if its in both their interests Yesterday the G7 made a commitment to stop subsidises for Fossil Fuel exploitation This was a reaffirment from COP26 The day before Rishi doubled the incentives for Fossil Fuel exploitation in North Sea and no incentives for alternative fuels There are a lot of words and very little action Each Country has a reason for exceptions Nibyism if you like I can't see Fossil Fuel being phased out anytime soon Some efforts are being made in Li-ion Technology with China leading the way with 79% of current World Capacity UK has 0.3% Projections for massive increased capacity to 2030 shows China's share drop to 65% with UK at 0.8% I guess UK is finally getting out of Vehicle Production I have more faith in New Technology (whatever it may be) solving Climate Warming issues than Countries Worldwide stopping what they are doing Predictably and to no one's surprise the carve up and rehabilitation of Russia has begun At the UN"s request, Turkey has begun negotiations with Russia on how to get Ukrainian Grain out of Ukraine Did anyone invite Ukraine to these talks about their produce? Thought not As they kicked off their meetings in Ankara drinking Turkish Coffee Medium Sweet Russia's Foreign Minister Lavrov and Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut thought it would be a good idea to lift Sanctions on Russia. Mevlut thought it was a "Legitimate" request The major obstacle of course to get "Ukraine's" grain out of Odessa is that Ukraine has mined the port and is stubbornly refusing to demine Ukraine's rational is that their Grain is one of their biggest bargaining chips and if they demine Odessa to allow its export Russia will steam into Odessa and it'll be game over We shall see how this plays out My money is on Ukraine being Fucked Over by International pressure under the guise of preventing a humanitarian tragedy due to Food Shortages www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/06/08/ukrainian-grain-crisis-turkey-says-the-lifting-of-russia-sanctions-legitimate-in-lavrov-visit_5986076_4.htmlWell that's a more complex situation than I realised. There's a (probably over simplified) solution, and that's to allow UN flagged peacekeeping naval ships to provide maritime protection around Odessa with orders to attack Russian ships within a certain range of the port.
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Post by hcstokie on Jun 9, 2022 6:47:44 GMT
They could potentially drive the grain to the port in Moldova and export from there. I think it’s about a 3 hour drive from Odessa. I’ve got no idea if that port or the logistics could cope with the scale required though.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 9, 2022 10:19:59 GMT
Predictably and to no one's surprise the carve up and rehabilitation of Russia has begun At the UN"s request, Turkey has begun negotiations with Russia on how to get Ukrainian Grain out of Ukraine Did anyone invite Ukraine to these talks about their produce? Thought not As they kicked off their meetings in Ankara drinking Turkish Coffee Medium Sweet Russia's Foreign Minister Lavrov and Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut thought it would be a good idea to lift Sanctions on Russia. Mevlut thought it was a "Legitimate" request The major obstacle of course to get "Ukraine's" grain out of Odessa is that Ukraine has mined the port and is stubbornly refusing to demine Ukraine's rational is that their Grain is one of their biggest bargaining chips and if they demine Odessa to allow its export Russia will steam into Odessa and it'll be game over We shall see how this plays out My money is on Ukraine being Fucked Over by International pressure under the guise of preventing a humanitarian tragedy due to Food Shortages www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2022/06/08/ukrainian-grain-crisis-turkey-says-the-lifting-of-russia-sanctions-legitimate-in-lavrov-visit_5986076_4.htmlWell that's a more complex situation than I realised. There's a (probably over simplified) solution, and that's to allow UN flagged peacekeeping naval ships to provide maritime protection around Odessa with orders to attack Russian ships within a certain range of the port. My understanding is that would require a UN Resolution which of course Russia would Veto To answer HC below I saw an estimate that it would take up ro a million truckloads to transport overland to Western Europe No idea if this is accurate Would Moldova want to put itself in harms way with Russia who might consider it an aggressive move
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jun 9, 2022 10:53:55 GMT
Well that's a more complex situation than I realised. There's a (probably over simplified) solution, and that's to allow UN flagged peacekeeping naval ships to provide maritime protection around Odessa with orders to attack Russian ships within a certain range of the port. My understanding is that would require a UN Resolution which of course Russia would Veto To answer HC below I saw an estimate that it would take up ro a million truckloads to transport overland to Western Europe No idea if this is accurate Would Moldova want to put itself in harms way with Russia who might consider it an aggressive move A veto would be another PR disaster for Russia, so I don't see what there is to lose by proposing it.
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Post by mrcoke on Jun 9, 2022 11:06:28 GMT
They could potentially drive the grain to the port in Moldova and export from there. I think it’s about a 3 hour drive from Odessa. I’ve got no idea if that port or the logistics could cope with the scale required though. Moldova is land locked. It has a small port on the Danude capable of taking ships but much smaller capacity. Odessa can take ships with 13m draft about the same as Teesport. Moldova's port has only 4m draft for bulk carriers and only used for small bulk vessels. Ship capacity increases exponentially with draft. The UK's biggest bulk terminal is Immingham which can take 14m draft vessels. www.abports.co.uk/locations/immingham/
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Post by lordb on Jun 9, 2022 11:21:06 GMT
My understanding is that would require a UN Resolution which of course Russia would Veto To answer HC below I saw an estimate that it would take up ro a million truckloads to transport overland to Western Europe No idea if this is accurate Would Moldova want to put itself in harms way with Russia who might consider it an aggressive move A veto would be another PR disaster for Russia, so I don't see what there is to lose by proposing it. Time and effort Russia would 100% veto it
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Post by felonious on Jun 9, 2022 11:57:41 GMT
They say history is always written by the victor. Each country has their own version. According to Russian history they beat Hitler and the western front was a sideshow! Waterloo was one of the biggest victories in German history, when Blucher came to the rescue of the British who were getting thrashed by Napoleon. Another massive victory in German history is Dunkirk when Germany drove the British empire forces into the sea. I find your dismissal of that Russian claim rather sanctimonious Its claim is very legitably supported as accurate by many eminent historians I'll quote just one from this article www.thedailybeast.com/wwiis-greatest-battle-how-kursk-changed-the-warHaving personally visited Belgorod in 1990 soon after Peristroka and being taken to the Museum which commemorates the Battle of Kursk and later the actual Battlefield itself it still brings chills to me for its absolute bleakness and absence of any living thing in its environs I reflect on how our Russian "Handlers" who accompanied us on the overnight train from Moscow and the Local delegates we met who were very much at pains to claim Ukrainian heritage and pride they were living in the bread basket of the Soviet Union and share copious amounts of Vodka I wonder how they are feeling now on this shitshow What I do know for sure is they were in no doubt proud of their forefathers decisive intervention in defeating Hitler
What were their thoughts on the pre war division of Poland or is that another bread basket that we're not aware of being claimed by the basket case that is Russia.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 9, 2022 13:27:11 GMT
I find your dismissal of that Russian claim rather sanctimonious Its claim is very legitably supported as accurate by many eminent historians I'll quote just one from this article www.thedailybeast.com/wwiis-greatest-battle-how-kursk-changed-the-warHaving personally visited Belgorod in 1990 soon after Peristroka and being taken to the Museum which commemorates the Battle of Kursk and later the actual Battlefield itself it still brings chills to me for its absolute bleakness and absence of any living thing in its environs I reflect on how our Russian "Handlers" who accompanied us on the overnight train from Moscow and the Local delegates we met who were very much at pains to claim Ukrainian heritage and pride they were living in the bread basket of the Soviet Union and share copious amounts of Vodka I wonder how they are feeling now on this shitshow What I do know for sure is they were in no doubt proud of their forefathers decisive intervention in defeating Hitler
What were their thoughts on the pre war division of Poland or is that another bread basket that we're not aware of being claimed by the basket case that is Russia. Strangely enough as it was a Business Trip to examine opportunities for Investment I didn't discuss the Carve Up between Hitler and Stalin My post was in reply to the assertion that the Russian History teaches that they defeated Hitler had no merit My point being The Battle of Kursk and indeed Stalingrad bear consideration at least in the turning point of WW2 Ironically it was Hitlers desire to get his hands on Ukraine grain to feed his troops Now its the ROW desire to get its Grain is Ukraine's biggest bargaining chips.
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Post by stokeuk474 on Jun 9, 2022 15:58:40 GMT
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Post by butlerstbob on Jun 9, 2022 16:01:19 GMT
2 Brits fighting for Ukraine and captured by the Russian army have been sentenced to death....where does lead us? Every day.. I think that Russia and this war can't get any worse, but every day it really does! Yesterday it was Russia trying to exploit the west and the world by bargaining with the wheat exports that belong to Ukraine... Today they sentence 3 fighters to death 2 from the uk, I do wonder wether they will try to use this as another bargaining tool to lift sanctions?!
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Post by wagsastokie on Jun 9, 2022 16:33:04 GMT
2 Brits fighting for Ukraine and captured by the Russian army have been sentenced to death....where does lead us? Every day.. I think that Russia and this war can't get any worse, but every day it really does! Yesterday it was Russia trying to exploit the west and the world by bargaining with the wheat exports that belong to Ukraine... Today they sentence 3 fighters to death 2 from the uk, I do wonder wether they will try to use this as another bargaining tool to lift sanctions?! Whatever the Russians want They should be told in no uncertain terms to fuck off And if one hair on those two soldiers is even accidentally damaged we will double our military aid
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Post by somersetstokie on Jun 9, 2022 16:37:50 GMT
The situation regarding these 3 is regrettable, but it should have no political significance because of their nationality. No one is likely to have forced these men to participate in military action against Russia, and they would have known the possible consequences of their involvement. As I understand things one of the Brits is an ex soldier and had something like 4 years previous service with the Ukrainian forces before the Russian invasion. They are probably very brave men, and should be treated with respect as prisoners of war, but whilst the Foreign Office may take up their case behind the scenes, there is no obligation or commitment due to these men from the British Govt. And their position should not dictate our policy and responses. Unfortunately.
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Post by wannabee on Jun 9, 2022 16:48:42 GMT
2 Brits fighting for Ukraine and captured by the Russian army have been sentenced to death....where does lead us? Every day.. I think that Russia and this war can't get any worse, but every day it really does! Yesterday it was Russia trying to exploit the west and the world by bargaining with the wheat exports that belong to Ukraine... Today they sentence 3 fighters to death 2 from the uk, I do wonder wether they will try to use this as another bargaining tool to lift sanctions?! Undoubtedly they will be used as Pawns in the game Whether they were living in Ukraine since 2018 as their families claim or they followed Liz Truss's ill advised backing to go and fight in Ukraine makes little difference They will almost certainly be classed under International definition as Irregular Combatants, can be tried as such and are not protected by the Geneva Convention As the West Generally has more regard for its Citizens life, no matter how recklessly or stupidly they behave than Russia Putin will extract a heavy price I doubt very much they are in any imminent danger of execution, they are too valuable alive This may turn into another Zaghari Ratcliffe situation but rather than Boris's careless words it will be Liz Truss's foolish words that will be used in the Propaganda War
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Post by mtrstudent on Jun 9, 2022 17:07:37 GMT
2 Brits fighting for Ukraine and captured by the Russian army have been sentenced to death....where does lead us? Every day.. I think that Russia and this war can't get any worse, but every day it really does! Yesterday it was Russia trying to exploit the west and the world by bargaining with the wheat exports that belong to Ukraine... Today they sentence 3 fighters to death 2 from the uk, I do wonder wether they will try to use this as another bargaining tool to lift sanctions?! Undoubtedly they will be used as Pawns in the game Whether they were living in Ukraine since 2018 as their families claim or they followed Liz Truss's ill advised backing to go and fight in Ukraine makes little difference They will almost certainly be classed under International definition as Irregular Combatants, can be tried as such and are not protected by the Geneva Convention As the West Generally has more regard for its Citizens life, no matter how recklessly or stupidly they behave than Russia Putin will extract a heavy price I doubt very much they are in any imminent danger of execution, they are too valuable alive This may turn into another Zaghari Ratcliffe situation but rather than Boris's careless words it will be Liz Truss's foolish words that will be used in the Propaganda War I followed one of them on Twitter for years. Remember him posting pics of him joining the Ukrainian military way back. It's the Russians who are lying here like usual.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 9, 2022 17:13:01 GMT
This is exactly what I feared, the west getting bore with this war. UkraineThe first (and only) town he mentions is in the east.
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