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Post by thehartshillbadger on Feb 14, 2022 21:46:14 GMT
Can someone explain to me why America should be able to determine the foreign policy of an independent nation? It shouldn't. Two wrongs don't make a right. Equally well said |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 14, 2022 21:52:25 GMT
How much of it is due to what happened in Afghanistan? They all looked really silly with the speed in which the Taliban took over and how much of a bodge job they did getting people out. I feel like they’re operating on a worst case so if it does happen they can’t say they were caught off guard by Putin. Quite possibly. Ultimately a lot of this comes down to sheer incompetence of Western leaders and an inability to negotiate. One of my big gripes with politicians is the tragic lack of competence when it comes to basic negotiation. It doesn't take much research to see that a war would be catastrophic for Russia and Putin but at the end of the day the West need to give him a win to take back to Russia. He can't go back empty handed and will continue posturing until he gets a decent concession... Probably something along the lines of commitment that Ukraine won't join Nato for another 5 years. The big danger is Western politicians frightening him into war... Putting troops anywhere near Russia is not going to benefit anyone, least of all Ukraine. Ukraine's leaders are literally begging the West to shut the fuck up with the war hype and act with a semblance of rationality. Two years of bonkers overreactions to a largely non fatal virus and as you say, an embarassing humiliation at the hands of the Taliban - Why is any of this a surprise? Just look at the state of Boris, Biden, Macron and Von Der Liar. I wouldn't feel confident in them serving me a pint, let alone running some of the most powerful nations on the planet. Correct, the liberal view of foreign policy as “good v evil”. The hypocrisy of the west is staggering, you have to put yourself in the shoes of Putin despite the fact that he’s an absolute danger. Why wouldn’t we expect Putin to react when the NATO are on his doorstep? I mean for fucks sake America wouldn’t even allow a country like Nicaragua (the size of New York) to form it’s own government without crushing it like an insect, yet they act surprised when Russia acts in self interest in their own region. Concessions could be made here so that no one appears to lose face, but Putin is an egomaniac and will invade Ukraine in a heartbeat if he feels backed into a corner…….. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 14, 2022 21:54:04 GMT
Can someone explain to me why America should be able to determine the foreign policy of an independent nation? It shouldn't. Two wrongs don't make a right. Do you think Putin, along with other leaders the world over see it as massively hypocritical of us to expect them to act differently though? |
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 14, 2022 22:01:57 GMT
It shouldn't. Two wrongs don't make a right. Do you think Putin, along with other leaders the world over see it as massively hypocritical of us to expect them to act differently though? I don’t think Putin gives a shit what anyone thinks. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 14, 2022 22:05:18 GMT
Do you think Putin, along with other leaders the world over see it as massively hypocritical of us to expect them to act differently though? I don’t think Putin gives a shit what anyone thinks. I genuinely think he has no desire to go into a full scale war with Ukraine and the west, that of course doesn’t mean he won’t. Which means that diplomacy and negotiation should be top of the agenda still……. |
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Post by hammered on Feb 14, 2022 22:13:43 GMT
Quite possibly. Ultimately a lot of this comes down to sheer incompetence of Western leaders and an inability to negotiate. One of my big gripes with politicians is the tragic lack of competence when it comes to basic negotiation. It doesn't take much research to see that a war would be catastrophic for Russia and Putin but at the end of the day the West need to give him a win to take back to Russia. He can't go back empty handed and will continue posturing until he gets a decent concession... Probably something along the lines of commitment that Ukraine won't join Nato for another 5 years. The big danger is Western politicians frightening him into war... Putting troops anywhere near Russia is not going to benefit anyone, least of all Ukraine. Ukraine's leaders are literally begging the West to shut the fuck up with the war hype and act with a semblance of rationality. Two years of bonkers overreactions to a largely non fatal virus and as you say, an embarassing humiliation at the hands of the Taliban - Why is any of this a surprise? Just look at the state of Boris, Biden, Macron and Von Der Liar. I wouldn't feel confident in them serving me a pint, let alone running some of the most powerful nations on the planet. Correct, the liberal view of foreign policy as “good v evil”. The hypocrisy of the west is staggering, you have to put yourself in the shoes of Putin despite the fact that he’s an absolute danger. Why wouldn’t we expect Putin to react when the NATO are on his doorstep? I mean for fucks sake America wouldn’t even allow a country like Nicaragua (the size of New York) to form it’s own government without crushing it like an insect, yet they act surprised when Russia acts in self interest in their own region. Concessions could be made here so that no one appears to lose face, but Putin is an egomaniac and will invade Ukraine in a heartbeat if he feels backed into a corner…….. Top post Prestwich Putin is no angel but he's outed the hypocrisy of the west and the agreements he currently holds regarding the proliferation of NATO Obiden heeds a distraction from the shit-show he's turned the US into and people have to remember in 2014 an Obama Whitehouse oversaw the installing of the current regime...there's also plenty of links between Obiden, (Hunter), Energy and Ukraine IMO - Putin has little interest in Ukraine - he needed Crimea only as a warm water port for trade & Navy. Why bother bringing his border up to NATO? All he wants is to make $$ selling gas to Germany All looking a bit contrived by the west - a bit like Covid I hope the war=mongers don't get their way. If this kicks off it will be bad!! |
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 14, 2022 22:14:11 GMT
I don’t think Putin gives a shit what anyone thinks. I genuinely think he has no desire to go into a full scale war with Ukraine and the west, that of course doesn’t mean he won’t. Which means that diplomacy and negotiation should be top of the agenda still……. He doesn’t want war with the west. But I think he is determined to bring back into Russia’s orbit as many and as much of the former soviet socialist republics as he is able to. He has no respect for them as independent nation states. So how do you manage that in a diplomatic way? Allow Putin to establish hegemony over the Ukraine so it becomes a puppet state of Russia like Belarus. And do that regardless of what the Ukraine wants. I sincerely hope not. |
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 14, 2022 22:26:32 GMT
Quite possibly. Ultimately a lot of this comes down to sheer incompetence of Western leaders and an inability to negotiate. One of my big gripes with politicians is the tragic lack of competence when it comes to basic negotiation. It doesn't take much research to see that a war would be catastrophic for Russia and Putin but at the end of the day the West need to give him a win to take back to Russia. He can't go back empty handed and will continue posturing until he gets a decent concession... Probably something along the lines of commitment that Ukraine won't join Nato for another 5 years. The big danger is Western politicians frightening him into war... Putting troops anywhere near Russia is not going to benefit anyone, least of all Ukraine. Ukraine's leaders are literally begging the West to shut the fuck up with the war hype and act with a semblance of rationality. Two years of bonkers overreactions to a largely non fatal virus and as you say, an embarassing humiliation at the hands of the Taliban - Why is any of this a surprise? Just look at the state of Boris, Biden, Macron and Von Der Liar. I wouldn't feel confident in them serving me a pint, let alone running some of the most powerful nations on the planet. Correct, the liberal view of foreign policy as “good v evil”. The hypocrisy of the west is staggering, you have to put yourself in the shoes of Putin despite the fact that he’s an absolute danger. Why wouldn’t we expect Putin to react when the NATO are on his doorstep? I mean for fucks sake America wouldn’t even allow a country like Nicaragua (the size of New York) to form it’s own government without crushing it like an insect, yet they act surprised when Russia acts in self interest in their own region. Concessions could be made here so that no one appears to lose face, but Putin is an egomaniac and will invade Ukraine in a heartbeat if he feels backed into a corner…….. Nicaragua. Seriously? That’s so 1980s. Last I heard those cuddly, cozy Sandinista fellas, particularly their head honcho Daniel Ortega was behaving like your classic tin pot dictator having recently secured his fourth spell as president helped no doubt by arresting and locking up his opponents. A nasty piece of work. |
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Post by klingon on Feb 14, 2022 22:32:04 GMT
May I be allowed to summarise “Global Britain’s” contribution to ending this impasse?
Lavish Liz: Please don’t invade Ukraine, we need the gas.
Russia: Fuck off.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 14, 2022 22:33:05 GMT
Correct, the liberal view of foreign policy as “good v evil”. The hypocrisy of the west is staggering, you have to put yourself in the shoes of Putin despite the fact that he’s an absolute danger. Why wouldn’t we expect Putin to react when the NATO are on his doorstep? I mean for fucks sake America wouldn’t even allow a country like Nicaragua (the size of New York) to form it’s own government without crushing it like an insect, yet they act surprised when Russia acts in self interest in their own region. Concessions could be made here so that no one appears to lose face, but Putin is an egomaniac and will invade Ukraine in a heartbeat if he feels backed into a corner…….. Nicaragua. Seriously? That’s so 1980s. Last I heard those cuddly, cozy Sandinista fellas, particularly their head honcho Daniel Ortega was behaving like your classic tin pot dictator having recently secured his fourth spell as president helped no doubt by arresting and locking up his opponents. A nasty piece of work. It’s merely an example of the hypocrisy in question. To expect Russia to blindly accept what is going on in their region is naive beyond belief if the boot was on the other foot America certainly wouldn’t……. |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Feb 14, 2022 22:39:22 GMT
Correct, the liberal view of foreign policy as “good v evil”. The hypocrisy of the west is staggering, you have to put yourself in the shoes of Putin despite the fact that he’s an absolute danger. Why wouldn’t we expect Putin to react when the NATO are on his doorstep? I mean for fucks sake America wouldn’t even allow a country like Nicaragua (the size of New York) to form it’s own government without crushing it like an insect, yet they act surprised when Russia acts in self interest in their own region. Concessions could be made here so that no one appears to lose face, but Putin is an egomaniac and will invade Ukraine in a heartbeat if he feels backed into a corner…….. Nicaragua. Seriously? That’s so 1980s. Last I heard those cuddly, cozy Sandinista fellas, particularly their head honcho Daniel Ortega was behaving like your classic tin pot dictator having recently secured his fourth spell as president helped no doubt by arresting and locking up his opponents. A nasty piece of work. And before Ortega there was peace and harmony under the US-backed dictatorship, right? |
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Post by klingon on Feb 14, 2022 22:40:12 GMT
Nicaragua. Seriously? That’s so 1980s. Last I heard those cuddly, cozy Sandinista fellas, particularly their head honcho Daniel Ortega was behaving like your classic tin pot dictator having recently secured his fourth spell as president helped no doubt by arresting and locking up his opponents. A nasty piece of work. It’s merely an example of the hypocrisy in question. To expect Russia to blindly accept what is going on in their region is naive beyond belief if the boot was on the other foot America certainly wouldn’t……. Fucking yes, youth. USA, USA! Are these people unaware of the “domino theory”. And if they have, how’s that working out for you guys? |
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 14, 2022 22:43:20 GMT
Nicaragua. Seriously? That’s so 1980s. Last I heard those cuddly, cozy Sandinista fellas, particularly their head honcho Daniel Ortega was behaving like your classic tin pot dictator having recently secured his fourth spell as president helped no doubt by arresting and locking up his opponents. A nasty piece of work. And before Ortega there was peace and harmony under the US-backed dictatorship, right? Wasn’t he supposed to be the fella that put that right? |
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 14, 2022 22:46:58 GMT
Nicaragua. Seriously? That’s so 1980s. Last I heard those cuddly, cozy Sandinista fellas, particularly their head honcho Daniel Ortega was behaving like your classic tin pot dictator having recently secured his fourth spell as president helped no doubt by arresting and locking up his opponents. A nasty piece of work. It’s merely an example of the hypocrisy in question. To expect Russia to blindly accept what is going on in their region is naive beyond belief if the boot was on the other foot America certainly wouldn’t……. America though has learned lessons from its conduct during the Cold War. Well, for the most part. It’s been some time since it got itself in a fankle in its own back yard. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 14, 2022 22:50:48 GMT
It’s merely an example of the hypocrisy in question. To expect Russia to blindly accept what is going on in their region is naive beyond belief if the boot was on the other foot America certainly wouldn’t……. America though has learned lessons from its conduct during the Cold War. Well, for the most part. It’s been some time since it got itself in a fankle in its own back yard. But still makes the same foreign policy mistakes time and time again. And when America sneezes we invariably get a cold…… |
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Feb 14, 2022 22:51:00 GMT
And before Ortega there was peace and harmony under the US-backed dictatorship, right? Wasn’t he supposed to be the fella that put that right? I'm not defending the guy - just pointing out that it wasn't a US-backed thriving democracy before he came to power. |
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 14, 2022 22:52:57 GMT
He doesn’t want war with the west. But I think he is determined to bring back into Russia’s orbit as many and as much of the former soviet socialist republics as he is able to. He has no respect for them as independent nation states. So how do you manage that in a diplomatic way? Allow Putin to establish hegemony over the Ukraine so it becomes a puppet state of Russia like Belarus. And do that regardless of what the Ukraine wants. I sincerely hope not. I think the best outcome would be for Ukraine to declare themselves neutral and not part of any military alliance, free to trade and receive investment from both east and west and to choose its own leader. Not completely ideal but if I was in charge I wouldn’t be trusting either side, they are merely a pawn based on geography and strategic importance alone. This is what they effectively were from 1992 to 2008 anyway with very few dramas until NATO declared their intention to accept them into the club……. The crucial year is 2014 when Yanukovych got dumped. Russia’s response to seeing their boy being punted out of office has driven everything since then especially their annexation of the Crimea in the same year which directly prompted the new government to look to NATO and, crucially a swing in public opinion in the Ukraine from apathy about NATO to enthusiasm. The change in approach towards NATO wasn’t a provocation but a response to Soviet provocation. |
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 14, 2022 22:56:10 GMT
America though has learned lessons from its conduct during the Cold War. Well, for the most part. It’s been some time since it got itself in a fankle in its own back yard. But still makes the same foreign policy mistakes time and time again. And when America sneezes we invariably get a cold…… Not in the Americas or, indeed, in South East Asia. Of course, they’ve made up for that in the Middle East since then, but the motivations are completely different in this new era. So, I’d argue not the same foreign policy mistakes. Different ones. |
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Post by whatsashig on Feb 14, 2022 22:59:03 GMT
Watch mr jones, makes you think, there is another movie too about poles but can’t remember the name of it makes you think, went on the why not now
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Post by klingon on Feb 14, 2022 23:05:23 GMT
Watch mr jones, makes you think, there is another movie too about poles but can’t remember the name of it makes you think, went on the why not now Benjy, where are you when the world needs you? |
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Post by whatsashig on Feb 14, 2022 23:10:03 GMT
Watch mr jones, makes you think, there is another movie too about poles but can’t remember the name of it makes you think, went on the why not now Benjy, where are you when the world needs you? Watch the film, it’s not bad but makes you think, the film the counterfeiters, or just know we made inflatable tanks to succeed |
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Post by hammered on Feb 14, 2022 23:23:06 GMT
Chess pieces - Obama backed ousting of Russian favoured govt in 2014 leads to Putin (annexing) protecting his lease till 2042 of the Sevastopol ports. That initiative by the west led to the subsequent referendum and absorption of the Crimea region into the Russian Federation. They haven't stopped pushing or agitating since.
Putin can turn out the lights with weapons or gas. The west must be nuts or they've bunkers at the ready.
The leaders of the Ukraine have been begging the west to back down on the unsubstantiated fear porn and yet they keep going...
A bit like Saddam's weapons of mass destruction...........?
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Post by klingon on Feb 14, 2022 23:32:04 GMT
Benjy, where are you when the world needs you? Watch the film, it’s not bad but makes you think, the film the counterfeiters, or just know we made inflatable tanks to succeed Sorry Youth, didn’t mean to knock you down. But, suppose they “invade tomorrow “, what the fuck is this government capable of doing to prevent the outcome? Boris? Liz Truss’ Hat? We voted for “sovereignty”, and we get this pile of twats. More importantly, where’s my carefully crafted Polish butt plug? I think we all need answers th these important questions. |
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Post by whatsashig on Feb 14, 2022 23:53:07 GMT
You ain’t knocked me down the discussion is a poignant one, and it’s historical, it’s why I mentioned the films I did, I was well unaware of what the folk of Ukraine had previously gone through. At the same time as I believe the head of state as said , this is nothing new. I really don’t know what’s going on politically , cus that’s going all be about £ or euros or rubels or whatever. It dunt make sense though, I heard on the news we wouldn’t send soldiers in and the reasoning was ridiculous if you transposed it to Iraq or Afghanistan. We ain’t going get involved cus we rely on them to keep warm, they could however let us witness a cold like in Ukraine
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Post by whatsashig on Feb 14, 2022 23:56:33 GMT
Watch the film, it’s not bad but makes you think, the film the counterfeiters, or just know we made inflatable tanks to succeed Sorry Youth, didn’t mean to knock you down. But, suppose they “invade tomorrow “, what the fuck is this government capable of doing to prevent the outcome? Boris? Liz Truss’ Hat? We voted for “sovereignty”, and we get this pile of twats. More importantly, where’s my carefully crafted Polish butt plug? I think we all need answers th these important questions. Do you know when you was young and you got some one say banker with there cheeks pulled wide, it’s kinda like that, not you it’s them conjoling (<spelling)us |
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Post by klingon on Feb 15, 2022 0:17:03 GMT
Sorry Youth, didn’t mean to knock you down. But, suppose they “invade tomorrow “, what the fuck is this government capable of doing to prevent the outcome? Boris? Liz Truss’ Hat? We voted for “sovereignty”, and we get this pile of twats. More importantly, where’s my carefully crafted Polish butt plug? I think we all need answers th these important questions. Do you know when you was young and you got some one say banker with there cheeks pulled wide, it’s kinda like that, not you it’s them conjoling (<spelling)us Not like me, but I have no clue what this poster is on about. Am I missing a nugget of wisdom? I’m 96 years young… what’s happening,… Nurse!,, |
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Post by whatsashig on Feb 15, 2022 0:20:35 GMT
If your 96 I do apologise if you’ve nevercc be witnessed the banker thing, sorry
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Feb 15, 2022 0:22:09 GMT
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Post by klingon on Feb 15, 2022 0:31:27 GMT
How beautiful. I know we’ve done it before, and I thinkI I know how you like it. But this time, can you not set Alexa to ”Sound of heavy gunfire and battle” as an alarm? If that doesn’t do the trick, I have other options…… |
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 15, 2022 5:40:47 GMT
The crucial year is 2014 when Yanukovych got dumped. Russia’s response to seeing their boy being punted out of office has driven everything since then especially their annexation of the Crimea in the same year which directly prompted the new government to look to NATO and, crucially a swing in public opinion in the Ukraine from apathy about NATO to enthusiasm. The change in approach towards NATO wasn’t a provocation but a response to Soviet provocation. Of course, but playing devils advocate Russia will have seen the likes of John McCain and Victoria Nuland meeting with groups such as the ultra right wing opposition to Yanukovych and come to the conclusion that both the Obama regime and the EU were meddling in the politics of Ukraine and openly trying to oust the elected leader of an independent nation. You say Soviet provocation, they would say otherwise……. Indeed. They say a lot of things. Pravda… Truth.  |
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