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Post by lordb on Dec 24, 2021 8:14:11 GMT
60,000 deployed troops compared to Russia’s 1 million, a 6 billion euro defence budget compared to Russia’s 70 billion euros and a tiny fraction of the weaponry. In a full scale war they’d be annihilated…… Ukraine has close to 250,00 active military personnel with close to 1 million reservists. They have close to 4million military aged males to call to arms and thousands of veterans. What about tanks, guns,planes e.t.c.? If it did come to war and Ukraine was on it's own assume it would be one sided and very bloody? |
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 24, 2021 8:21:23 GMT
Ukraine has close to 250,00 active military personnel with close to 1 million reservists. They have close to 4million military aged males to call to arms and thousands of veterans. What about tanks, guns,planes e.t.c.? If it did come to war and Ukraine was on it's own assume it would be one sided and very bloody? Asymmetric warfare can produce some very painful outcomes for the big boys as Russia knows very well after it’s experience in Afghanistan as well as Finland in the Winter War (not forgetting the French and Americans in Vietnam or indeed the British in South Africa). |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Dec 24, 2021 10:18:27 GMT
60,000 deployed troops compared to Russia’s 1 million, a 6 billion euro defence budget compared to Russia’s 70 billion euros and a tiny fraction of the weaponry. In a full scale war they’d be annihilated…… Ukraine has close to 250,00 active military personnel with close to 1 million reservists. They have close to 4million military aged males to call to arms and thousands of veterans. Active personnel yes. Russia have 2 million reservists and tens of millions of military aged males though so it's all relative....... |
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Post by lordb on Dec 24, 2021 10:48:08 GMT
What about tanks, guns,planes e.t.c.? If it did come to war and Ukraine was on it's own assume it would be one sided and very bloody? Asymmetric warfare can produce some very painful outcomes for the big boys as Russia knows very well after it’s experience in Afghanistan as well as Finland in the Winter War (not forgetting the French and Americans in Vietnam or indeed the British in South Africa). True however the terrain of the Ukraine makes a big difference |
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Post by OldStokie on Dec 24, 2021 10:59:56 GMT
I recall the tension when JFK kicked back at nuclear missiles in Cuba. The world was holding its breath. The Yanks wouldn't have them in Cuba so why should Russia not be too pleased that NATO has them in Poland etc? Once upon a time we used to laugh at the propaganda in Pravda, the Russian newspaper, but you can't get a fag paper between the right-wing press in The West now and what Pravda was like as far as propaganda is concerned.
But Putin is a different kettle of fish to most former Soviet leaders. He really doesn't give a toss what he does. When you use a banned nerve gas in a foreign city to try to kill one of your traitors, plus killing off a few more by nefarious means before that incident, then we should be prepared for anything.
Germany may hold the key to what happens in the future. They've still not sanctioned the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline that runs under the Baltic Sea and bypasses Ukraine and Poland to supply Europe, and which will run through Germany to Lubmin. It's already built, but until Germany gives the go ahead then it's useless. So Putin and his Oligarchs don't hold all the aces.
The situation is so bloody complicated that it needs wise heads to prevail.
OS.
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Post by OldStokie on Dec 24, 2021 11:10:24 GMT
Asymmetric warfare can produce some very painful outcomes for the big boys as Russia knows very well after it’s experience in Afghanistan as well as Finland in the Winter War (not forgetting the French and Americans in Vietnam or indeed the British in South Africa). True however the terrain of the Ukraine makes a big difference Let's not beat about the bush here. Russia could annex Ukraine in a week if they put their minds to it. They already occupy The Crimea and control all shipping, so their Paras would take the airports in a couple of days and they would have complete control of the air, which is what wins wars these days. And if NATO did decide to intercede, they'd be too late to do anything. The scenario I'm painting is an all-out war between the two countries. At the moment both countries are tinkering about at the edges in the Eastern Sector and Ukraine is having a job fighting a holding battle. OS. |
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Post by partickpotter on Dec 24, 2021 11:28:53 GMT
I recall the tension when JFK kicked back at nuclear missiles in Cuba. The world was holding its breath. The Yanks wouldn't have them in Cuba so why should Russia not be too pleased that NATO has them in Poland etc? Once upon a time we used to laugh at the propaganda in Pravda, the Russian newspaper, but you can't get a fag paper between the right-wing press in The West now and what Pravda was like as far as propaganda is concerned. But Putin is a different kettle of fish to most former Soviet leaders. He really doesn't give a toss what he does. When you use a banned nerve gas in a foreign city to try to kill one of your traitors, plus killing off a few more by nefarious means before that incident, then we should be prepared for anything. Germany may hold the key to what happens in the future. They've still not sanctioned the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline that runs under the Baltic Sea and bypasses Ukraine and Poland to supply Europe, and which will run through Germany to Lubmin. It's already built, but until Germany gives the go ahead then it's useless. So Putin and his Oligarchs don't hold all the aces. The situation is so bloody complicated that it needs wise heads to prevail. OS. Slightly off topic, but I recently finished reading Red Heat: Conspiracy, Murder and the Cold War in the Caribbean which looks at American policy to Cuba, Haiti and the Dominican Republic. It's an eye opener, particularly how hawkish JFK was to Cuba. It was his incompetence (linked to his opportunism in the 1960 presidential election) that led to Castro aligning to Russia and the subsequent missile crisis. It's a brilliant read - well worth the 5 stars I gave it! |
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Post by mrcoke on Dec 24, 2021 14:50:03 GMT
I recall the tension when JFK kicked back at nuclear missiles in Cuba. The world was holding its breath. The Yanks wouldn't have them in Cuba so why should Russia not be too pleased that NATO has them in Poland etc? Once upon a time we used to laugh at the propaganda in Pravda, the Russian newspaper, but you can't get a fag paper between the right-wing press in The West now and what Pravda was like as far as propaganda is concerned. But Putin is a different kettle of fish to most former Soviet leaders. He really doesn't give a toss what he does. When you use a banned nerve gas in a foreign city to try to kill one of your traitors, plus killing off a few more by nefarious means before that incident, then we should be prepared for anything. Germany may hold the key to what happens in the future. They've still not sanctioned the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline that runs under the Baltic Sea and bypasses Ukraine and Poland to supply Europe, and which will run through Germany to Lubmin. It's already built, but until Germany gives the go ahead then it's useless. So Putin and his Oligarchs don't hold all the aces. The situation is so bloody complicated that it needs wise heads to prevail. OS. I think Russia has already got Germany by the short and curlies: www.reuters.com/business/energy/russian-gas-flows-germany-via-yamal-europe-stop-gascade-data-shows-2021-12-21/ |
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Dec 24, 2021 18:33:36 GMT
Yes, Putin dunner give a toss what other country's think.
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Post by themistocles on Jan 20, 2022 19:29:48 GMT
It's on..
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 20, 2022 21:38:58 GMT
It's all getting pretty scary.
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Post by lordb on Jan 21, 2022 12:31:35 GMT
Everyone is mobilising
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jan 21, 2022 12:33:49 GMT
What do bet365 reckon  |
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 21, 2022 12:53:42 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jan 21, 2022 14:03:44 GMT
Kuenssberg will describe it as a kerfuffle... The interesting and troublesome thing for the West about the Ukraine is the sizeable population of pro-Russian separatists in the east of the country. That muddies the waters somewhat as an invasion would not necessarily be seen by all as simply a case of the bad Russians doing a bad thing because they're bad. I suspect if they occupied the territories which they consider needed 'protecting' or 'reclaiming' as they did in the Crimea, the West might be content with extensive sanctions rather than supporting a messy and drawn out war. However, it's a very similar excuse to moving into the Sudetenland to protect the rights and welfare of ethnic Germans, and that didn't end well... |
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 21, 2022 15:30:01 GMT
Kuenssberg will describe it as a kerfuffle... The interesting and troublesome thing for the West about the Ukraine is the sizeable population of pro-Russian separatists in the east of the country. That muddies the waters somewhat as an invasion would not necessarily be seen by all as simply a case of the bad Russians doing a bad thing because they're bad. I suspect if they occupied the territories which they consider needed 'protecting' or 'reclaiming' as they did in the Crimea, the West might be content with extensive sanctions rather than supporting a messy and drawn out war. However, it's a very similar excuse to moving into the Sudetenland to protect the rights and welfare of ethnic Germans, and that didn't end well... There’s plenty of other areas in the former soviet republics that were Russified to one degree or another that provide similar scenarios for Russian incursions notably in the Baltic countries, the Caucasus and Central Asia. Maybe the most worrying of the lot is the Suwalki Gap with its historical resonance with the Danzig Corridor and we know how that ended up. |
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Post by followyoudown on Jan 21, 2022 15:35:42 GMT
Kind of ironic its a brexit government doing the most to help defend europe while the EU......
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Post by partickpotter on Jan 21, 2022 15:39:33 GMT
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Post by followyoudown on Jan 21, 2022 16:11:49 GMT
The fact the uk flights went round german air space to deliver the arms tells you which way they fall of course, a case of don't get don't ask rather than don't ask don't get. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 21, 2022 17:20:39 GMT
Mental if Germany took Russia's side. Surely we truly would be in WW3 territory if that were to happen. Even more reason to fuck Boris and Biden off quick!
I'm amazed how relaxed everyone seems to be over this. It would be the biggest bloodbath of our lifetime hands down.
Heroic to hear up to 13 million Ukrainian civilians have offered to take arms. Genuine heroes.
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 21, 2022 17:25:17 GMT
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Post by chigstoke on Jan 21, 2022 17:46:44 GMT
I'm no expert, but from my knowledge of playing Superpower 2 on Steam, this generally leads to being fucked in game.
Granted, me launching nukes at everyone, even countries like Saint Kitts and Nevis doesn't help proceedings.
But I'm staggered at how comparitvely little coverage this is getting over Covid.
I see Scholz has refused a short notice meeting with Biden to discuss the situation
Germany going to side with Russia on this one? Germany after a good energy deal from the Russians perhaps?
Meanwhile, Israel began a drill aimed at Tehran
We just need China to have a go at Taiwan and we've got the holy trinity
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Post by wagsastokie on Jan 21, 2022 17:53:58 GMT
I'm no expert, but from my knowledge of playing Superpower 2 on Steam, this generally leads to being fucked in game. Granted, me launching nukes at everyone, even countries like Saint Kitts and Nevis doesn't help proceedings. But I'm staggered at how comparitvely little coverage this is getting over Covid. I see Scholz has refused a short notice meeting with Biden to discuss the situation Germany going to side with Russia on this one? Germany after a good energy deal from the Russians perhaps? Meanwhile, Israel began a drill aimed at Tehran We just need China to have a go at Taiwan and we've got the holy trinity North Korea South Korea? |
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Post by thevoid on Jan 21, 2022 18:03:46 GMT
I'm no expert, but from my knowledge of playing Superpower 2 on Steam, this generally leads to being fucked in game. Granted, me launching nukes at everyone, even countries like Saint Kitts and Nevis doesn't help proceedings. But I'm staggered at how comparitvely little coverage this is getting over Covid. I see Scholz has refused a short notice meeting with Biden to discuss the situation Germany going to side with Russia on this one? Germany after a good energy deal from the Russians perhaps? Meanwhile, Israel began a drill aimed at Tehran We just need China to have a go at Taiwan and we've got the holy trinity China's only a matter of time |
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Post by chigstoke on Jan 21, 2022 18:06:49 GMT
I'm no expert, but from my knowledge of playing Superpower 2 on Steam, this generally leads to being fucked in game. Granted, me launching nukes at everyone, even countries like Saint Kitts and Nevis doesn't help proceedings. But I'm staggered at how comparitvely little coverage this is getting over Covid. I see Scholz has refused a short notice meeting with Biden to discuss the situation Germany going to side with Russia on this one? Germany after a good energy deal from the Russians perhaps? Meanwhile, Israel began a drill aimed at Tehran We just need China to have a go at Taiwan and we've got the holy trinity North Korea South Korea? Now this one I do think that Kim is all bark and no bite.
Of course, if something were to spill over with other countries then they may well see it as an excuse.
But as for being the first to kick off, I can't see it.
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Post by chigstoke on Jan 21, 2022 18:10:05 GMT
I'm no expert, but from my knowledge of playing Superpower 2 on Steam, this generally leads to being fucked in game. Granted, me launching nukes at everyone, even countries like Saint Kitts and Nevis doesn't help proceedings. But I'm staggered at how comparitvely little coverage this is getting over Covid. I see Scholz has refused a short notice meeting with Biden to discuss the situation Germany going to side with Russia on this one? Germany after a good energy deal from the Russians perhaps? Meanwhile, Israel began a drill aimed at Tehran We just need China to have a go at Taiwan and we've got the holy trinity China's only a matter of time Sadly mate I think you're not wrong really. China would love to get their hands on TSMC or any of the semi-conductor trade. We don't want Beijing in control of them. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 21, 2022 18:18:54 GMT
Given the West's leadership this couldn't really be coming at a worse time could it?
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jan 21, 2022 18:22:02 GMT
Given the West's leadership this couldn't really be coming at a worse time could it? Brain dead Biden, bumbling bojo and mucky Macron, what could possibly go wrong.....  |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Jan 21, 2022 18:35:11 GMT
Given the West's leadership this couldn't really be coming at a worse time could it? Brain dead Biden, bumbling bojo and mucky Macron, what could possibly go wrong..... And a country of wokies who care more about he/she pronouns than fighting for democracy 🥵🥴 |
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Post by adri2008 on Jan 21, 2022 18:47:39 GMT
Given the West's leadership this couldn't really be coming at a worse time could it? Putin's a far more intelligent leader than anybody in the west currently. He's been running rings round them. What happens in the Ukraine is unclear, I suspect he's weighing up what he can get away with without provoking any sort of full scale war. |
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