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Post by partickpotter on Feb 24, 2022 8:43:44 GMT
What a terrible day for humanity. But we all need to remember that every war, every stockmarket crash, every pandemic, every global crisis, results in a transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. Absolutely. That is the thought should be foremost in everyone’s mind this morning. |
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Post by Foster on Feb 24, 2022 8:47:59 GMT
The west will condemn and threaten, but nothing more will be done that will stop Russia. In time the west will try and "forget" and get on with business. It's incredibly sad for the people of Ukraine but that's the reality, just with what happened with Crimea. Putin knows this and knows exactly where to push the line to, he won't touch a NATO country. Either way it's a dark day in the world. Clearly Europe cannot go more than a few decades without fighting Simplistic but why don't we just add Ukraine to Nato and bin any relation with Russia. If Putin can rip up agreements and change the law to suit his agenda then why shouldn't others. In any case, NATO or not, Ukraine shouldn't be left fighting this alone. |
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Post by scfcbiancorossi on Feb 24, 2022 8:48:15 GMT
Suffer the little children… This is just so dreadful and sad 😔 The man is without doubt, both mad and evil. |
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 24, 2022 9:02:18 GMT
You have to now isolate Russia. From fucking everything you can. Don’t monitor the situation ACT Sporting bodies - expel International organisations - suspend Every institution possible Johnson’s response better not be to cancel Putin’s Nectar card and revoke his National Trust membership. We, and the rest of the world, need to do everything in our power, short of sending troops or nukes, to stop Putin. We need to be send all the arms we sell to the Saudis to kill Yemenis to Ukraine instead. All economic sanctions possible. Cease all trade with Russia and Russian companies. Europe needs to find another source for its energy, now. Silence from China. They will be watching and if the rest of the world shows weakness now, prepare for China to take whatever they want, whenever they want it. |
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Post by Chewbacca the Wookie on Feb 24, 2022 9:02:55 GMT
probably a silly question as i’m a little naive politically but can’t the normal Russian people turn on him and start a revolution. Surely the majority can’t all agree with what he’s doing.
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Post by oggyoggy on Feb 24, 2022 9:04:31 GMT
probably a silly question as i’m a little naive politically but can’t the normal Russian people turn on him and start a revolution. Surely the majority can’t all agree with what he’s doing. Yes, but we need to be forcing their hand. If the whole world said the Russian elite who enable Putin can no longer travel outside of Russia or buy or use assets outside of Russia, they will start to turn on their leader. |
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Post by Foster on Feb 24, 2022 9:04:33 GMT
Suffer the little children… This is just so dreadful and sad 😔 The man is without doubt, both mad and evil. As far as I'm concerned we shouldn't be freezing Russian assets, we should be taking them and using them against them. Russians can keep their money in their own fucking banks. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 24, 2022 9:08:31 GMT
You have to now isolate Russia. From fucking everything you can. Don’t monitor the situation ACT Sporting bodies - expel International organisations - suspend Every institution possible Johnson’s response better not be to cancel Putin’s Nectar card and revoke his National Trust membership. We, and the rest of the world, need to do everything in our power, short of sending troops or nukes, to stop Putin. We need to be send all the arms we sell to the Saudis to kill Yemenis to Ukraine instead. All economic sanctions possible. Cease all trade with Russia and Russian companies. Europe needs to find another source for its energy, now. Silence from China. They will be watching and if the rest of the world shows weakness now, prepare for China to take whatever they want, whenever they want it. |
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Feb 24, 2022 9:11:39 GMT
This thread is well worth a read, showing how deep Russian influence is here.
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Post by superjw on Feb 24, 2022 9:13:37 GMT
The west will condemn and threaten, but nothing more will be done that will stop Russia. In time the west will try and "forget" and get on with business. It's incredibly sad for the people of Ukraine but that's the reality, just with what happened with Crimea. Putin knows this and knows exactly where to push the line to, he won't touch a NATO country. Either way it's a dark day in the world. Clearly Europe cannot go more than a few decades without fighting Simplistic but why don't we just add Ukraine to Nato and bin any relation with Russia. If Putin can rip up agreements and change the law to suit his agenda then why shouldn't others. In any case, NATO or not, Ukraine shouldn't be left fighting this alone. Well yes you are right, Ukraine should not be left to right this on their own, but I fear they might be. Interesting to see what the US does now - don't they have an agreement to protect Ukraine since they handed over their nuclear arms? |
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Post by superjw on Feb 24, 2022 9:21:46 GMT
All quiet in Ukrainian airspace, all flights diverting around, although most have been anyway.
A single drone all that is visible
Edit - interesting that Flight Radar servers are now down
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Feb 24, 2022 9:21:56 GMT
The west will condemn and threaten, but nothing more will be done that will stop Russia. In time the west will try and "forget" and get on with business. It's incredibly sad for the people of Ukraine but that's the reality, just with what happened with Crimea. Putin knows this and knows exactly where to push the line to, he won't touch a NATO country. Either way it's a dark day in the world. Clearly Europe cannot go more than a few decades without fighting Simplistic but why don't we just add Ukraine to Nato and bin any relation with Russia. If Putin can rip up agreements and change the law to suit his agenda then why shouldn't others. In any case, NATO or not, Ukraine shouldn't be left fighting this alone. For two reasons mainly. The first is that this is precisely what Putin is invading to stop. It would legitimise his actions. Second, putting Ukraine in NATO "from tomorrow" would lead to WW3 because an attack on one NATO country is an attack on all. It would massively increase pressure on all other NATO members to respond militarily. And if they didn't, that's the end of NATO. As much as I condemn Russia's actions towards Ukraine, I'd rather any conflict was contained within Ukraine than spread to become a global, potentially nuclear war. |
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Post by franklin on Feb 24, 2022 9:31:48 GMT
Simplistic but why don't we just add Ukraine to Nato and bin any relation with Russia. If Putin can rip up agreements and change the law to suit his agenda then why shouldn't others. In any case, NATO or not, Ukraine shouldn't be left fighting this alone. For two reasons mainly. The first is that this is precisely what Putin is invading to stop. It would legitimise his actions. Second, putting Ukraine in NATO "from tomorrow" would lead to WW3 because an attack on one NATO country is an attack on all. It would massively increase pressure on all other NATO members to respond militarily. And if they didn't, that's the end of NATO. As much as I condemn Russia's actions towards Ukraine, I'd rather any conflict was contained within Ukraine than spread to become a global, potentially nuclear war. And sadly that's why Ukraine are done for nobody would be willing to risk oblivion to fight Russia. You just hope whatever sanctions are implemented have an impact and stop the Russians. The world should close their doors to everything Russian ban the people from entry ban any and all trading etc and try and cripple them into withdrawal. |
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Post by Foster on Feb 24, 2022 9:34:20 GMT
Simplistic but why don't we just add Ukraine to Nato and bin any relation with Russia. If Putin can rip up agreements and change the law to suit his agenda then why shouldn't others. In any case, NATO or not, Ukraine shouldn't be left fighting this alone. For two reasons mainly. The first is that this is precisely what Putin is invading to stop. It would legitimise his actions. Second, putting Ukraine in NATO "from tomorrow" would lead to WW3 because an attack on one NATO country is an attack on all. It would massively increase pressure on all other NATO members to respond militarily. And if they didn't, that's the end of NATO. As much as I condemn Russia's actions towards Ukraine, I'd rather any conflict was contained within Ukraine than spread to become a global, potentially nuclear war. I don't really think that this is what Putin is invading for. I think it's a ruse and a pure landgrab. They'll be no Ukraine left if he goes unchecked. Secondly, I doubt Russia would dare take on all NATO members. They just don't have the capacity to do it. Maybe the threat of Russia actually being invaded would calm him down. Russia shouldn't be able to dictate who can or can't be a NATO member. The whole world should be considered NATO members. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 24, 2022 9:36:47 GMT
For two reasons mainly. The first is that this is precisely what Putin is invading to stop. It would legitimise his actions. Second, putting Ukraine in NATO "from tomorrow" would lead to WW3 because an attack on one NATO country is an attack on all. It would massively increase pressure on all other NATO members to respond militarily. And if they didn't, that's the end of NATO. As much as I condemn Russia's actions towards Ukraine, I'd rather any conflict was contained within Ukraine than spread to become a global, potentially nuclear war. I don't really think that this is what Putin is invading for. I think it's a ruse and a pure landgrab. They'll be no Ukraine left if he goes unchecked. Secondly, I doubt Russia would dare take on all NATO members. They just don't have the capacity to do it. Maybe the threat of Russia actually being invaded would calm him down. Russia shouldn't be able to dictate who can or can't be a NATO member. The whole world should be considered NATO members. He wants the two occupied territories, he would quite happily extend that to the whole of Ukraine if he feels he could get away with it. Beyond that I still think it would be suicide still. But like anything with unhinged egomaniacs that's subject to change........ |
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Post by Foster on Feb 24, 2022 9:43:32 GMT
I don't really think that this is what Putin is invading for. I think it's a ruse and a pure landgrab. They'll be no Ukraine left if he goes unchecked. Secondly, I doubt Russia would dare take on all NATO members. They just don't have the capacity to do it. Maybe the threat of Russia actually being invaded would calm him down. Russia shouldn't be able to dictate who can or can't be a NATO member. The whole world should be considered NATO members. He wants the two occupied territories, he would quite happily extend that to the whole of Ukraine if he feels he could get away with it. Beyond that I still think it would be suicide still. But like anything with unhinged egomaniacs that's subject to change........ ...and if the whole world basically allow him to get away with this then why wouldn't he think that all of Ukraine is fair game? |
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Post by Foster on Feb 24, 2022 9:51:50 GMT
As for Boris, anything short of a total eclipse of anything Russian and he should go.
If all he can do is freeze a few assets and target a few individuals then it's pathetic. He needs to grow a pair.
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Post by yeokel on Feb 24, 2022 9:51:54 GMT
For two reasons mainly. The first is that this is precisely what Putin is invading to stop. It would legitimise his actions. Second, putting Ukraine in NATO "from tomorrow" would lead to WW3 because an attack on one NATO country is an attack on all. It would massively increase pressure on all other NATO members to respond militarily. And if they didn't, that's the end of NATO. As much as I condemn Russia's actions towards Ukraine, I'd rather any conflict was contained within Ukraine than spread to become a global, potentially nuclear war. And sadly that's why Ukraine are done for nobody would be willing to risk oblivion to fight Russia. You just hope whatever sanctions are implemented have an impact and stop the Russians. The world should close their doors to everything Russian ban the people from entry ban any and all trading etc and try and cripple them into withdrawal. " nobody would be willing to risk oblivion to fight Russia" I think that is a reasonably justifiable reason not to fight. However, the west does have the capability to grab Russia by the balls and squeeze them until they cry 'Hold, Enough'. Whether we have the balls to grab them by the balls will be seen within the next few days, or possibly hours. And, as others are saying, China will be watching how this pans out very closely so, if the cards are played cleverly, the west should be able to put Putin back in his box permanently, and warn China not to even begin to try to emerge from theirs. |
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Post by superjw on Feb 24, 2022 9:55:23 GMT
I don't really think that this is what Putin is invading for. I think it's a ruse and a pure landgrab. They'll be no Ukraine left if he goes unchecked. Secondly, I doubt Russia would dare take on all NATO members. They just don't have the capacity to do it. Maybe the threat of Russia actually being invaded would calm him down. Russia shouldn't be able to dictate who can or can't be a NATO member. The whole world should be considered NATO members. He wants the two occupied territories, he would quite happily extend that to the whole of Ukraine if he feels he could get away with it. Beyond that I still think it would be suicide still. But like anything with unhinged egomaniacs that's subject to change........ I think a fair shout would be him extending down to take the territory around the Ukrainian coast. If he does that then that's crippling for the rest of Ukraine and Putin would have little trouble going all the way. |
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Post by salopstick on Feb 24, 2022 9:56:20 GMT
Sport can do a lot of good in the world.
Football pisses me off.
It is unimportant in the grand scheme of things but organisations such as UEFA and FIFA must expel Russia. The IOC too
It needs condemnation from every international organisation.
This country under the leadership of Putin must be told that they are not part of the international community in any form whilst this invasion is happening.
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Post by yeokel on Feb 24, 2022 9:57:00 GMT
probably a silly question as i’m a little naive politically but can’t the normal Russian people turn on him and start a revolution. Surely the majority can’t all agree with what he’s doing. I suspect that the press stories the Russian public see about Putin, and these actions will be radically different to that that we are subjected to. They will not be seeing themselves as the villains of the piece at the moment. |
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 24, 2022 9:58:46 GMT
I don't really think that this is what Putin is invading for. I think it's a ruse and a pure landgrab. They'll be no Ukraine left if he goes unchecked. Secondly, I doubt Russia would dare take on all NATO members. They just don't have the capacity to do it. Maybe the threat of Russia actually being invaded would calm him down. Russia shouldn't be able to dictate who can or can't be a NATO member. The whole world should be considered NATO members. He wants the two occupied territories, he would quite happily extend that to the whole of Ukraine if he feels he could get away with it. Beyond that I still think it would be suicide still. But like anything with unhinged egomaniacs that's subject to change........ He wants the Ukraine in its entirety. The clues are in what he says and writes. For example in this essay from last June… ‘On the Historical Unity of the Russians and Ukrainians’,. I was made aware of that piece of writing in this excellent essay by Nial Ferguson, Vlad the invader: Putin is looking to rebuild Russia’s empire which I think paints a pretty good picture of what is happening (and what has been happening for that matter). Pretty depressing really. |
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Post by Foster on Feb 24, 2022 9:59:47 GMT
Waiting for a big plot twist now. China to come in and bomb the fuck out of Russia to save the day.
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Post by adri2008 on Feb 24, 2022 10:01:44 GMT
I don't really understand Putin's reasoning behind this - the West may well sit idly by whilst he installs a puppet government but at the cost of sanctions and Europe looking at other sources for its energy.
Do Russian's realistically see a scenario where Nato would start an offensive and invade Russia? - western democracies just wouldn't tolerate such an action
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Post by franklin on Feb 24, 2022 10:01:46 GMT
And sadly that's why Ukraine are done for nobody would be willing to risk oblivion to fight Russia. You just hope whatever sanctions are implemented have an impact and stop the Russians. The world should close their doors to everything Russian ban the people from entry ban any and all trading etc and try and cripple them into withdrawal. " nobody would be willing to risk oblivion to fight Russia" I think that is a reasonably justifiable reason not to fight. However, the west does have the capability to grab Russia by the balls and squeeze them until they cry 'Hold, Enough'. Whether we have the balls to grab them by the balls will be seen within the next few days, or possibly hours. And, as others are saying, China will be watching how this pans out very closely so, if the cards are played cleverly, the west should be able to put Putin back in his box permanently, and warn China not to even begin to try to emerge from theirs. Of course it is a legitimate reason not to fight so isolation is the only answer cripple anything Russian and make them think. How to get Putin to back off is worrying because I don't think words will do it. He's dared the world to try and stop him in his speech and I'm not sure anyone will. |
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Post by franklin on Feb 24, 2022 10:03:02 GMT
I don't really understand Putin's reasoning behind this - the West may well sit idly by whilst he installs a puppet government but at the cost of sanctions and Europe looking at other sources for its energy. Do Russian's realistically see a scenario where Nato would start an offensive and invade Russia? - western democracies just wouldn't tolerate such an action He's not worried about a NATO invasion he's worried about democracy and being kicked out. |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Feb 24, 2022 10:07:54 GMT
He wants the two occupied territories, he would quite happily extend that to the whole of Ukraine if he feels he could get away with it. Beyond that I still think it would be suicide still. But like anything with unhinged egomaniacs that's subject to change........ He wants the Ukraine in its entirety. The clues are in what he says and writes. For example in this essay from last June… ‘On the Historical Unity of the Russians and Ukrainians’,. I was made aware of that piece of writing in this excellent essay by Nial Ferguson, Vlad the invader: Putin is looking to rebuild Russia’s empire which I think paints a pretty good picture of what is happening (and what has been happening for that matter). Pretty depressing really. He wants it, but would he settle for the two territories and a Ukranian buffer state? I think if things didn't go his way he would....... |
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Post by phileetin on Feb 24, 2022 10:09:39 GMT
You have to now isolate Russia. From fucking everything you can. Don’t monitor the situation ACT Sporting bodies - expel International organisations - suspend Every institution possible Johnson’s response better not be to cancel Putin’s Nectar card and revoke his National Trust membership. We, and the rest of the world, need to do everything in our power, short of sending troops or nukes, to stop Putin. We need to be send all the arms we sell to the Saudis to kill Yemenis to Ukraine instead. All economic sanctions possible. Cease all trade with Russia and Russian companies. Europe needs to find another source for its energy, now. Silence from China. They will be watching and if the rest of the world shows weakness now, prepare for China to take whatever they want, whenever they want it. From what i heard on the news this morning China ( Xi ) have said that it is not an invasion .
They went on to say that Putin waited for the winter olympics to end and went into Ukraine with the support of China and the news commentators believe that Xi expects Putin to reciprocate when China annexes Taiwan .
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Post by Foster on Feb 24, 2022 10:12:04 GMT
I don't really understand Putin's reasoning behind this - the West may well sit idly by whilst he installs a puppet government but at the cost of sanctions and Europe looking at other sources for its energy. Do Russian's realistically see a scenario where Nato would start an offensive and invade Russia? - western democracies just wouldn't tolerate such an action Well, they would, wouldn't they? What are the West/we really doing about it. We're implementing sanctions that will hurt long-term, but Russia will have already gotten what they want by the time it hurts. At which point, normality (for the West, not the Ukrainians) will have returned. |
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Post by werrington on Feb 24, 2022 10:18:43 GMT
I don't really understand Putin's reasoning behind this - the West may well sit idly by whilst he installs a puppet government but at the cost of sanctions and Europe looking at other sources for its energy. Do Russian's realistically see a scenario where Nato would start an offensive and invade Russia? - western democracies just wouldn't tolerate such an action Doesn’t want NATO in a country as pivotal as Ukraine given its access to the Black Sea and more especially Crimea They’ll get in and nail that area and the west will talk ( like crimea ) but eventually it’ll disappear off the news and become accepted |
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