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Post by Hereward the Wake ᛊᛏᛟᚲᛖ on Aug 25, 2022 21:28:31 GMT
You do realise that if there is a nuclear war you, your family, me and mine and everyone else's will be turned to dust dont you . Me warning you about a round of applause will make no difference whatsoever ever 😁 Don't be scared though mate . The impotency of those in charge (I won't call them leaders because they don't lead me) is beyond our control . Nothing we can say on a footy message board makes the slightest bit of difference. All you can do is look after yourself and your own and do what's right for you and your own same as the rest of us . One hundred percent agree. It’s the happy clapping of idiots like Truss is what starts this kind of thing off. Acting the strong woman to get elected, the sound bites, the rhetoric, with seemingly no thought on the consequences. Frightening. Clapping makes no difference, they don't take any notice of us at any other time. However, if Russia or China or whoever want to nuke me and mine I'd happily nuke them and theirs in retaliation |
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Post by thewonderstuff on Aug 25, 2022 21:40:22 GMT
One hundred percent agree. It’s the happy clapping of idiots like Truss is what starts this kind of thing off. Acting the strong woman to get elected, the sound bites, the rhetoric, with seemingly no thought on the consequences. Frightening. if Russia or China or whoever want to nuke me and mine I'd happily nuke them and theirs in retaliation Everyone's a winner. |
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Post by Hereward the Wake ᛊᛏᛟᚲᛖ on Aug 25, 2022 21:45:06 GMT
if Russia or China or whoever want to nuke me and mine I'd happily nuke them and theirs in retaliation Everyone's a winner. And everyone's a loser |
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Post by thewonderstuff on Aug 25, 2022 21:51:32 GMT
I think you have the cart ever so slightly before your horse in your analysis mate. If you are already being nuked, the nuclear deterrent itself has failed in its very concept! |
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Post by longdistancekiddie on Aug 25, 2022 22:52:50 GMT
Nukes have only ever been used by one country
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Post by Paul Spencer on Aug 25, 2022 23:15:18 GMT
More consummate diplomacy from our future PM ...
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Post by Hereward the Wake ᛊᛏᛟᚲᛖ on Aug 25, 2022 23:29:10 GMT
I think you have the cart ever so slightly before your horse in your analysis mate. If you are already being nuked, the nuclear deterrent itself has failed in its very concept! No mate |
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Post by thewonderstuff on Aug 25, 2022 23:37:19 GMT
I think you have the cart ever so slightly before your horse in your analysis mate. If you are already being nuked, the nuclear deterrent itself has failed in its very concept! No mate Well it has mate because if someone is nuking you when you have nuclear weapons you may as well not have nuclear weapons mate, eh? I believe they're pretty dangerous things  |
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Post by Hereward the Wake ᛊᛏᛟᚲᛖ on Aug 25, 2022 23:48:07 GMT
Well it has mate because if someone is nuking you when you have nuclear weapons you may as well not have nuclear weapons mate, eh? I believe they're pretty dangerous things No , I don't think you quite understand mate. |
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Post by JoeinOz on Aug 26, 2022 5:26:20 GMT
to gain public support Truss boldly stated she'd be prepared to press the nuclear button. Do the people who like the sound of that realise everyone in the UK would die as well?
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 26, 2022 6:25:38 GMT
to gain public support Truss boldly stated she'd be prepared to press the nuclear button. Do the people who like the sound of that realise everyone in the UK would die as well? You don’t really understand the concept of nuclear deterrence do you. |
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 26, 2022 6:29:05 GMT
Nukes have only ever been used by one country Wow! You don’t say. |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 26, 2022 6:52:23 GMT
Sunak is seeming more like Starmer...invisible, thinks of himself as a steady hand, would do ok in calmer times when no big decisions need to be made.....we are not in those times.
In some ways Truss is the opposite" I'm Mrs Thatcher, ( with a little bit of Trump?)...I'm a strong leader , not scared of making decisions, sticking to them and seeing things through". Unfortunately for many of us she is liable to make the wrong decisions.
With the energy crisis over the winter months, the cost of living crisis,the Northern Ireland issue, Scottish independence and Ukraine, the unrest of the unions, public transport( I'm not sure that the environment is on the agenda) ( let alone the decline of the public sector, not just the NHS( is it declining/ just throwing more money at it isn't the only answer), including the Police) all needing some decisive and perhaps innovative policies and leadership I can't see either candidate lasting more than 9 months in office. That might seem like a gift to Labour ...could they do any better? Perhaps the question at the next election will be " can they do any worse?"
As I and many others have said, for me, the best genuine way forward for the future is electoral reform, not just the voting system but also the abolition of the H of L and the introduction of more democratic possibilities, bringing decision making as close to the people/ communities as possible. We might have to endure a lot of pain before anything structural could possibly change....it isn't in the interests of the current political class even to consider it.
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Post by JoeinOz on Aug 26, 2022 6:59:34 GMT
to gain public support Truss boldly stated she'd be prepared to press the nuclear button. Do the people who like the sound of that realise everyone in the UK would die as well? You don’t really understand the concept of nuclear deterrence do you. Yes I do. It's to help arms dealing manafacturers and corporations get as rich as they can. One of the flaws of the idea of 'deterrent' is clear in current global knife edge. That being, it only takes one lunatic one maniac to close humanity as we know it |
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Post by thewonderstuff on Aug 26, 2022 7:03:24 GMT
Well it has mate because if someone is nuking you when you have nuclear weapons you may as well not have nuclear weapons mate, eh? I believe they're pretty dangerous things No , I don't think you quite understand mate. For someone with such strong views on the matter, I don't think you actually understand what the word deterrent means, mate |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 26, 2022 7:10:34 GMT
Whilst Truss is clearly an idiot, I think some folk are losing sight of what she's doing which is simply saying the kind of stuff that people who go to Tory Party membership hustings want to hear, ie the bloody French eh, I'm dead tough me, tax cuts for you rich boys and girls.
Dog whistle stuff obviously but she (her team, in reality, not her) knows what works for her audience and, more importantly, the Express and Mail.
Once chosen, she'll soon be saying what a great friend Macron is when it's flesh-pressing time. Until then, she needs to appeal to Tory members who greedily lap up this kind of twattishness.
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Post by yeokel on Aug 26, 2022 7:20:13 GMT
Sunak is seeming more like Starmer...invisible, thinks of himself as a steady hand, would do ok in calmer times when no big decisions need to be made.....we are not in those times. In some ways Truss is the opposite" I'm Mrs Thatcher, ( with a little bit of Trump?)...I'm a strong leader , not scared of making decisions, sticking to them and seeing things through". Unfortunately for many of us she is liable to make the wrong decisions. With the energy crisis over the winter months, the cost of living crisis,the Northern Ireland issue, Scottish independence and Ukraine, the unrest of the unions, public transport( I'm not sure that the environment is on the agenda) ( let alone the decline of the public sector, not just the NHS( is it declining/ just throwing more money at it isn't the only answer), including the Police) all needing some decisive and perhaps innovative policies and leadership I can't see either candidate lasting more than 9 months in office. That might seem like a gift to Labour ...could they do any better? Perhaps the question at the next election will be " can they do any worse?" As I and many others have said, for me, the best genuine way forward for the future is electoral reform, not just the voting system but also the abolition of the H of L and the introduction of more democratic possibilities, bringing decision making as close to the people/ communities as possible. We might have to endure a lot of pain before anything structural could possibly change....it isn't in the interests of the current political class even to consider it. “ ….bringing decision making as close to the people/ communities as possible.The snag with that, John, is that most of the public are not interested in being part of the process, nor even being particularly well informed about the issues. Do we really want decision making being bought closer to those who gave Truss a round of applause when she nonchalantly suggests that she’ll be perfectly happy to press the button which would wipe out humanity and most of the rest of the natural world, or the likes of the ‘hanger and flogger’ brigades, for example? (I know some would say “yes” to those examples) |
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Post by noustie on Aug 26, 2022 7:41:53 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 26, 2022 7:45:48 GMT
Sunak is seeming more like Starmer...invisible, thinks of himself as a steady hand, would do ok in calmer times when no big decisions need to be made.....we are not in those times. In some ways Truss is the opposite" I'm Mrs Thatcher, ( with a little bit of Trump?)...I'm a strong leader , not scared of making decisions, sticking to them and seeing things through". Unfortunately for many of us she is liable to make the wrong decisions. With the energy crisis over the winter months, the cost of living crisis,the Northern Ireland issue, Scottish independence and Ukraine, the unrest of the unions, public transport( I'm not sure that the environment is on the agenda) ( let alone the decline of the public sector, not just the NHS( is it declining/ just throwing more money at it isn't the only answer), including the Police) all needing some decisive and perhaps innovative policies and leadership I can't see either candidate lasting more than 9 months in office. That might seem like a gift to Labour ...could they do any better? Perhaps the question at the next election will be " can they do any worse?" As I and many others have said, for me, the best genuine way forward for the future is electoral reform, not just the voting system but also the abolition of the H of L and the introduction of more democratic possibilities, bringing decision making as close to the people/ communities as possible. We might have to endure a lot of pain before anything structural could possibly change....it isn't in the interests of the current political class even to consider it. “ ….bringing decision making as close to the people/ communities as possible.The snag with that, John, is that most of the public are not interested in being part of the process, nor even being particularly well informed about the issues. Do we really want decision making being bought closer to those who gave Truss a round of applause when she nonchalantly suggests that she’ll be perfectly happy to press the button which would wipe out humanity and most of the rest of the natural world, or the likes of the ‘hanger and flogger’ brigades, for example? (I know some would say “yes” to those examples) Perhaps that's my point Yeokel....we need some innovative thinking and leadership so that more " ordinary " people can feel.oart of it and are part of it. Obviously it is easy for me to say that, coming up with the answers is the hard part.....but electoral reform is part of it. The party system is part of the problem. I have not seen the Truss video, but it seems its part of the deterent argument that " everyone " knows that every PM HAS to say that they would use the weapons...and to be believed and supported. As we all know the next time that they ARE seriously used could be the beginning of the end. Then of course there is the outside world....what China, America and Russia do, let alone Saudi Arabia, Iran etc is out of our control. Scary times. |
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Post by yeokel on Aug 26, 2022 7:59:40 GMT
“ ….bringing decision making as close to the people/ communities as possible.The snag with that, John, is that most of the public are not interested in being part of the process, nor even being particularly well informed about the issues. Do we really want decision making being bought closer to those who gave Truss a round of applause when she nonchalantly suggests that she’ll be perfectly happy to press the button which would wipe out humanity and most of the rest of the natural world, or the likes of the ‘hanger and flogger’ brigades, for example? (I know some would say “yes” to those examples) Perhaps that's my point Yeokel....we need some innovative thinking and leadership so that more " ordinary " people can feel.oart of it and are part of it. Obviously it is easy for me to say that, coming up with the answers is the hard part.....but electoral reform is part of it. The party system is part of the problem. I have not seen the Truss video, but it seems its part of the deterent argument that " everyone " knows that every PM HAS to say that they would use the weapons...and to be believed and supported. As we all know the next time that they ARE seriously used could be the beginning of the end. Then of course there is the outside world....what China, America and Russia do, let alone Saudi Arabia, Iran etc is out of our control. Scary times. I would rather a Prime Minister say “no sane person would ever use them, so we are scrapping our entire nuclear arsenal and putting the billions of pounds saved to better use”. And, I think the scary times will be when some or other terrorist group obtains some kind of nuclear weapon. Deterrence will not work in that circumstance I suspect  |
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Post by spitthedog on Aug 26, 2022 8:02:56 GMT
Why is it so populist for leaders to make an enemy out of everyone? Putin will be licking his lips at that, so maybe she's made one new friend there! |
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Post by Hereward the Wake ᛊᛏᛟᚲᛖ on Aug 26, 2022 8:13:39 GMT
No , I don't think you quite understand mate. For someone with such strong views on the matter, I don't think you actually understand what the word deterrent means, mate My views on it aren't that strong mate in all honesty. I'd rather no one nukes anyone, I just support nuking whoever tries to nuke us . I'm very vengeful like that 😀 |
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 26, 2022 8:16:50 GMT
Perhaps that's my point Yeokel....we need some innovative thinking and leadership so that more " ordinary " people can feel.oart of it and are part of it. Obviously it is easy for me to say that, coming up with the answers is the hard part.....but electoral reform is part of it. The party system is part of the problem. I have not seen the Truss video, but it seems its part of the deterent argument that " everyone " knows that every PM HAS to say that they would use the weapons...and to be believed and supported. As we all know the next time that they ARE seriously used could be the beginning of the end. Then of course there is the outside world....what China, America and Russia do, let alone Saudi Arabia, Iran etc is out of our control. Scary times. I would rather a Prime Minister say “no sane person would ever use them, so we are scrapping our entire nuclear arsenal and putting the billions of pounds saved to better use”. And, I think the scary times will be when some or other terrorist group obtains some kind of nuclear weapon. Deterrence will not work in that circumstance I suspect Perhaps eventually your worst case scenario will occur....someone , rogue state or mad leader will use them. At the moment the " game" that world leaders have been playing is " if you use them, we definitely will, so don't "......unfortunately I think not to have the weapons would not put us nir the world in a stronger position.....and if a country has them they have to appear to be prepared to use them 100%....I guess if asked a sane leader would go on to say they really don't WANT to use them , hope never to be in the position to seriously consider it and it would be a very last resort. As I say, I have not listened to Truss or Sunak since e Boris's resignation, but I would think that they ( and Starmer) would say similar. |
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 26, 2022 8:21:09 GMT
You don’t really understand the concept of nuclear deterrence do you. Yes I do. It's to help arms dealing manafacturers and corporations get as rich as they can. One of the flaws of the idea of 'deterrent' is clear in current global knife edge. That being, it only takes one lunatic one maniac to close humanity as we know it Good arguments, but not the ones that matter in relation to nuclear deterrence. |
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Post by spitthedog on Aug 26, 2022 8:35:18 GMT
to gain public support Truss boldly stated she'd be prepared to press the nuclear button. Do the people who like the sound of that realise everyone in the UK would die as well? You don’t really understand the concept of nuclear deterrence do you. It's absurd to suggest that this statement works on the level of deterrence on an international stage if that is the intention. How is this going to make any difference in that respect? Other countries are not that naive or superficial. No-one is going to revise their policies based on a pre-election statement like this. To suggest that other nations would not be aware that she is just playing up to her Tory local crowd is plain daft. It's clearly a domestic statement to make her sound 'hard', that no-one in the international stage is going to be remotely interested in, only on the level of seeing her as opportunist. There are 2 audiences for a statement like this. One is international and one is domestic For the international audience, it's a case of sounds like another one who will say anything to get into power. For the domestic audience (apart from perhaps 160,000 and the odd one) I'd suggest that is a statement that doesn't breed any confidence or make people feel any more secure at a time when people are feeling very insecure and vulnerable, especially coming from someone who clearly comes into the 'making it up as she goes along' category. It's a statement of literally no value in the world of international diplomacy i.e. no deterrent. |
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Post by cerebralstokie on Aug 26, 2022 8:58:35 GMT
Why is it so populist for leaders to make an enemy out of everyone? Putin will be licking his lips at that, so maybe she's made one new friend there! One of the tricks of the trade of populist leaders or would be leaders is to create an enemy or threat, real or imaginary as a means of rallying support for your cause. Putin being a case in point. The idea of a constructive conversation to try and find a solution to a problem seems to be an alien concept to Liz Truss. Of course you have to stand up for your values but I suspect Truss would be far too confrontational in her approach to many problems. E.U. bashing and Union bashing may well be popular in Tory heartlands, but I don't think they will lead to solutions to the many problems facing the country. |
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 26, 2022 9:31:08 GMT
Why is it so populist for leaders to make an enemy out of everyone? Putin will be licking his lips at that, so maybe she's made one new friend there! There always has to be somebody or something to hate. It makes it easier to control people and bend them to your will generally if you give them something to focus their dislike towards. It's also a nice deflection away from stuff that actually matters. It doesn't really matter what it is: foreigners, migrants, the EU, Jews, Muslims, poor people, the "woke", the "sinister green agenda" etc etc. It's not a very edifying aspect of people in general but lots respond well to it and the Express and Mail make fortunes on the back of it. |
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 26, 2022 9:43:30 GMT
You don’t really understand the concept of nuclear deterrence do you. It's absurd to suggest that this statement works on the level of deterrence on an international stage if that is the intention. How is this going to make any difference in that respect? Other countries are not that naive or superficial. No-one is going to revise their policies based on a pre-election statement like this. To suggest that other nations would not be aware that she is just playing up to her Tory local crowd is plain daft. It's clearly a domestic statement to make her sound 'hard', that no-one in the international stage is going to be remotely interested in, only on the level of seeing her as opportunist. There are 2 audiences for a statement like this. One is international and one is domestic For the international audience, it's a case of sounds like another one who will say anything to get into power. For the domestic audience (apart from perhaps 160,000 and the odd one) I'd suggest that is a statement that doesn't breed any confidence or make people feel any more secure at a time when people are feeling very insecure and vulnerable, especially coming from someone who clearly comes into the 'making it up as she goes along' category. It's a statement of literally no value in the world of international diplomacy i.e. no deterrent. It's a statement of the bleeding obvious. It's also clumsily put. But, to say it's no deterrent is wrong. It's simply a statement of our policy of deterrence meaning we have nuclear weapons and will use them. Which has been the opinion of every PM since the second world war and most opposition leaders too with a couple of exceptions. |
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 26, 2022 9:45:30 GMT
Why is it so populist for leaders to make an enemy out of everyone? Putin will be licking his lips at that, so maybe she's made one new friend there! One of the tricks of the trade of populist leaders or would be leaders is to create an enemy or threat, real or imaginary as a means of rallying support for your cause. Putin being a case in point. The idea of a constructive conversation to try and find a solution to a problem seems to be an alien concept to Liz Truss. Of course you have to stand up for your values but I suspect Truss would be far too confrontational in her approach to many problems. E.U. bashing and Union bashing may well be popular in Tory heartlands, but I don't think they will lead to solutions to the many problems facing the country. Liz Truss doesn't fill me with much confidence that she is up to the challenges facing this country. |
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Post by Hereward the Wake ᛊᛏᛟᚲᛖ on Aug 26, 2022 10:08:08 GMT
Why is it so populist for leaders to make an enemy out of everyone? Putin will be licking his lips at that, so maybe she's made one new friend there! There always has to be somebody or something to hate. It makes it easier to control people and bend them to your will generally if you give them something to focus their dislike towards. It's also a nice deflection away from stuff that actually matters. It doesn't really matter what it is: foreigners, migrants, the EU, Jews, Muslims, poor people, the "woke", the "sinister green agenda" etc etc. It's not a very edifying aspect of people in general but lots respond well to it and the Express and Mail make fortunes on the back of it. I agree with that 100% . The current anti white anti male and anti family values espoused by the left are just an attempt to divide the people. It's just a shame that people fall for it then in response them on the so called "right" retaliate. The Guardian and the BBC lap it up Divide and conquer |
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