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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jul 13, 2022 8:29:02 GMT
I'd be lying if I said I knew much about her before this week. However - philosophically I do not believe that either 'small state' or 'anti green' are the way forward for the challenges we are facing both nationally and globally - and as she's both of those she's not for me - however nice or otherwise she might be as a dinner guest. Is she actually saying the things you say? Or rather....she explains the reasons for her position which isn't quite as black-and-white white as you imply. What's your answer/ suggestion then ? Kemi Badenoch has consistently voted against green measures and she has said she would preside over a 'slimmer state'. That's absolutely fine but as I said - I do not think that should be our direction of travel - whatever her reasons. As for my 'answer' I'm not sure I'm required to have one - I'm not her campaign manager nor am I a member of the Conservative party so I won't be voting in the leadership election. You asked me what I 'thought of Kemi' - I've told you.
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Post by yeokel on Jul 13, 2022 8:32:26 GMT
I very much doubt it, she's much too right wing, I'd have thought they'd belong to a left leaning person or party. Why so? We had a very heated debate and referendum by a generation wanting to take back control. Regardless of the politics I've always been of the opinion that water, electricity, energy and communications are strategic infrastructure that shouldn't be run by foreign companies making money for shareholders or governments that can prioritise their own citizens over ours. I think you will find that post Ukraine and as we move towards increasing climate insecurity most of these coming back under state control will become the mainstream. Its time to rethink Thatchers big sell off. The idea that 70% of privatised water companies are owned offshore should be worrying in the next 20 years. Hundreds of millions of pounds are made abroad from running British utilities mostly by European governments at a cost to UK population. Not a single railway in the world operates completely under private ownership, if we want to encourage energy security nasser movement to public transport will be essential. The time is perfect for people to recognise that the UK security is in the hands of UK taxpayers. As a fan of sovereignty I'm sure you agree, I think you are stuck in an 80s version of public ownership. What you are arguing above is precisely the kind of stuff that Starmer should be articulating. The ideas are unlikely to end up as Tory policy, and he could begin to shape the public debate about those matters, probably refining some of the ideas as time goes on. I appreciate the discussion could cause some unrest in “the markets” but if he’s as “clinical” as some people say he is, he’d have the ability to quell the unrest. At least it would give us an opportunity to assess him and see what he’s made of. But, sadly, it’s not going to happen, is it
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 13, 2022 8:33:12 GMT
I very much doubt it, she's much too right wing, I'd have thought they'd belong to a left leaning person or party. Why so? We had a very heated debate and referendum by a generation wanting to take back control. Regardless of the politics I've always been of the opinion that water, electricity, energy and communications are strategic infrastructure that shouldn't be run by foreign companies making money for shareholders or governments that can prioritise their own citizens over ours. I think you will find that post Ukraine and as we move towards increasing climate insecurity most of these coming back under state control will become the mainstream. Its time to rethink Thatchers big sell off. The idea that 70% of privatised water companies are owned offshore should be worrying in the next 20 years. Hundreds of millions of pounds are made abroad from running British utilities mostly by European governments at a cost to UK population. Not a single railway in the world operates completely under private ownership, if we want to encourage energy security nasser movement to public transport will be essential. The time is perfect for people to recognise that the UK security is in the hands of UK taxpayers. As a fan of sovereignty I'm sure you agree, I think you are stuck in an 80s version of public ownership. I don't know what you are talking about to be honest. You are making too many presumptions ( about me). I believe that the Utilities and rail transport should be brought into public ownership, 2020s version. The Tories would never do that , I don't think Starmer would either, do you.?. Its a left wing policy, unfortunately....for me it should be " central" , common sense. As for abolition of the H of L, again probably a step too far for Starmer, wouldn't you think?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 13, 2022 8:34:08 GMT
Is she actually saying the things you say? Or rather....she explains the reasons for her position which isn't quite as black-and-white white as you imply. What's your answer/ suggestion then ? Kemi Badenoch has consistently voted against green measures and she has said she would preside over a 'slimmer state'. That's absolutely fine but as I said - I do not think that should be our direction of travel - whatever her reasons. As for my 'answer' I'm not sure I'm required to have one - I'm not her campaign manager nor am I a member of the Conservative party so I won't be voting in the leadership election. You asked me what I 'thought of Kemi' - I've told you. Thank you, thank you very much.
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Post by andystokey on Jul 13, 2022 8:38:54 GMT
Why so? We had a very heated debate and referendum by a generation wanting to take back control. Regardless of the politics I've always been of the opinion that water, electricity, energy and communications are strategic infrastructure that shouldn't be run by foreign companies making money for shareholders or governments that can prioritise their own citizens over ours. I think you will find that post Ukraine and as we move towards increasing climate insecurity most of these coming back under state control will become the mainstream. Its time to rethink Thatchers big sell off. The idea that 70% of privatised water companies are owned offshore should be worrying in the next 20 years. Hundreds of millions of pounds are made abroad from running British utilities mostly by European governments at a cost to UK population. Not a single railway in the world operates completely under private ownership, if we want to encourage energy security nasser movement to public transport will be essential. The time is perfect for people to recognise that the UK security is in the hands of UK taxpayers. As a fan of sovereignty I'm sure you agree, I think you are stuck in an 80s version of public ownership. What you are arguing above is precisely the kind of stuff that Starmer should be articulating. The ideas are unlikely to end up as Tory policy, and he could begin to shape the public debate about those matters, probably refining some of the ideas as time goes on. I appreciate the discussion could cause some unrest in “the markets” but if he’s as “clinical” as some people say he is, he’d have the ability to quell the unrest. At least it would give us an opportunity to assess him and see what he’s made of. But, sadly, it’s not going to happen, is it Corbyn tried to discuss this but the personality got in the way and the vested interest of the hedge funds got their buddy's in the media to rubbish the idea. Ask Germany how it feels relying on Russian gas today. Imagine if in this cost of living emergency we are in now the govt could leverage its ownership of utilities to our advantage. When 35C becomes the norm in the UK do we want to begging the French to upgrade our reservoirs? I don't think so. The debate has to be taken out of left vs right politics and into strategic command and control. Most people would get this in 2022 much more so than 40 years ago imo.
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Post by andystokey on Jul 13, 2022 8:41:57 GMT
Why so? We had a very heated debate and referendum by a generation wanting to take back control. Regardless of the politics I've always been of the opinion that water, electricity, energy and communications are strategic infrastructure that shouldn't be run by foreign companies making money for shareholders or governments that can prioritise their own citizens over ours. I think you will find that post Ukraine and as we move towards increasing climate insecurity most of these coming back under state control will become the mainstream. Its time to rethink Thatchers big sell off. The idea that 70% of privatised water companies are owned offshore should be worrying in the next 20 years. Hundreds of millions of pounds are made abroad from running British utilities mostly by European governments at a cost to UK population. Not a single railway in the world operates completely under private ownership, if we want to encourage energy security nasser movement to public transport will be essential. The time is perfect for people to recognise that the UK security is in the hands of UK taxpayers. As a fan of sovereignty I'm sure you agree, I think you are stuck in an 80s version of public ownership. I don't know what you are talking about to be honest. You are making too many presumptions ( about me). I believe that the Utilities and rail transport should be brought into public ownership, 2020s version. The Tories would never do that , I don't think Starmer would either, do you.?. Its a left wing policy, unfortunately....for me it should be " central" , common sense. As for abolition of the H of L, again probably a step too far for Starmer, wouldn't you think? My assumption was based on your preoccupation with Kemi so apologies. As for the HoL I think this last PM has shown the need for an independent upper house. I'm in favour of it I think the membership is wrong though and it should be democratise I think you get lots of people to buy into that idea.
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Post by yeokel on Jul 13, 2022 8:53:34 GMT
What you are arguing above is precisely the kind of stuff that Starmer should be articulating. The ideas are unlikely to end up as Tory policy, and he could begin to shape the public debate about those matters, probably refining some of the ideas as time goes on. I appreciate the discussion could cause some unrest in “the markets” but if he’s as “clinical” as some people say he is, he’d have the ability to quell the unrest. At least it would give us an opportunity to assess him and see what he’s made of. But, sadly, it’s not going to happen, is it Corbyn tried to discuss this but the personality got in the way and the vested interest of the hedge funds got their buddy's in the media to rubbish the idea. Ask Germany how it feels relying on Russian gas today. Imagine if in this cost of living emergency we are in now the govt could leverage its ownership of utilities to our advantage. When 35C becomes the norm in the UK do we want to begging the French to upgrade our reservoirs? I don't think so. The debate has to be taken out of left vs right politics and into strategic command and control. Most people would get this in 2022 much more so than 40 years ago imo. Corbyn was arguing for a 1960’s version of public ownership. It didn’t work then, and it wouldn’t work now. But, you are right that all the vital services should be under some kind of public ownership. But where is Starmer’s voice? And, if all of the MSM rubbishes the debate, he (and Labour in general) should be using social media more effectively, use a few tv adverts, billboards, radio and tv interviews to get the message over. Get himself on to Questiontime, Peston, etc. START THE DEBATE Starmer ffs. But, sadly, I don’t think he has the bottle for that fight, nor the nous or charisma to carry it off. The sooner Labour ditches him the better, in my opinion.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 13, 2022 8:54:54 GMT
I don't know what you are talking about to be honest. You are making too many presumptions ( about me). I believe that the Utilities and rail transport should be brought into public ownership, 2020s version. The Tories would never do that , I don't think Starmer would either, do you.?. Its a left wing policy, unfortunately....for me it should be " central" , common sense. As for abolition of the H of L, again probably a step too far for Starmer, wouldn't you think? My assumption was based on your preoccupation with Kemi so apologies. As for the HoL I think this last PM has shown the need for an independent upper house. I'm in favour of it I think the membership is wrong though and it should be democratise I think you get lots of people to buy into that idea. I'm not preoccupied with Kemi, just referred to her within the Oatcake banter. In my opinion the House of Lords should be an easy target of Labour/ Left, the name itself gives it away. It depends how far "Reform" goes before abolition and a rethink/ restart is needed. For me the jury is out on whether we need a second chamber. In the Internet age, discussions and mechanisms could be set up ,involving many stakeholders, depending upon the issue in hand, without the need to either physically visit the Lords nor to resort to such an unelected, elitist, unrepresentative, body.....mind you it suits many retired politicians as a retirement home, and is a good way to reward mates, so it suits the main parties.....
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Post by yeokel on Jul 13, 2022 9:01:47 GMT
My assumption was based on your preoccupation with Kemi so apologies. As for the HoL I think this last PM has shown the need for an independent upper house. I'm in favour of it I think the membership is wrong though and it should be democratise I think you get lots of people to buy into that idea. I'm not preoccupied with Kemi, just referred to her within the Oatcake banter. In my opinion the House of Lords should be an easy target of Labour/ Left, the name itself gives it away. It depends how far "Reform" goes before abolition and a rethink/ restart is needed. For me the jury is out on whether we need a second chamber. In the Internet age, discussions and mechanisms could be set up ,involving many stakeholders, depending upon the issue in hand, without the need to either physically visit the Lords nor to resort to such an unelected, elitist, unrepresentative, body.....mind you it suits many retired politicians as a retirement home, and is a good way to reward mates, so it suits the main parties..... We definitely DO need a second chamber. The sleaze and apparent corruption today is far too high as it is. Taking away some of the checks and balances publicly provided by the HoL would allow matters to deteriorate much further. Reform is definitely needed though. Something else Starmer could take the lead on if he had any balls.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 13, 2022 9:04:47 GMT
I'm not preoccupied with Kemi, just referred to her within the Oatcake banter. In my opinion the House of Lords should be an easy target of Labour/ Left, the name itself gives it away. It depends how far "Reform" goes before abolition and a rethink/ restart is needed. For me the jury is out on whether we need a second chamber. In the Internet age, discussions and mechanisms could be set up ,involving many stakeholders, depending upon the issue in hand, without the need to either physically visit the Lords nor to resort to such an unelected, elitist, unrepresentative, body.....mind you it suits many retired politicians as a retirement home, and is a good way to reward mates, so it suits the main parties..... We definitely DO need a second chamber. The sleaze and apparent corruption today is far too high as it is. Taking away some of the checks and balances publicly provided by the HoL would allow matters to deteriorate much further. Reform is definitely needed though. Something else Starmer could take the lead on if he had any balls. I'd just want to know the purpose, power and constitution ( How elected or appointed, by whom) of the " chamber" or process. I agree about Labour, Starmer , I'd imagine , would say that it is the wrong time to look at it, it would never be the right time.
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jul 13, 2022 9:05:05 GMT
This from the fella framing himself as the moderate and seen as 'too left' by most of the other candidates. This should give great comfort to those choosing between eating and heating this winter.
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Post by phileetin on Jul 13, 2022 9:06:26 GMT
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 13, 2022 9:16:01 GMT
I'm not preoccupied with Kemi, just referred to her within the Oatcake banter. In my opinion the House of Lords should be an easy target of Labour/ Left, the name itself gives it away. It depends how far "Reform" goes before abolition and a rethink/ restart is needed. For me the jury is out on whether we need a second chamber. In the Internet age, discussions and mechanisms could be set up ,involving many stakeholders, depending upon the issue in hand, without the need to either physically visit the Lords nor to resort to such an unelected, elitist, unrepresentative, body.....mind you it suits many retired politicians as a retirement home, and is a good way to reward mates, so it suits the main parties..... We definitely DO need a second chamber. The sleaze and apparent corruption today is far too high as it is. Taking away some of the checks and balances publicly provided by the HoL would allow matters to deteriorate much further. Reform is definitely needed though. Something else Starmer could take the lead on if he had any balls. Without a written constitution the House of Lords is essential to hold the government to account and temper any extreme measures that could be enacted Whilst the current system of peerages is not ideal it is better than a directly elected second chamber that could be continually allowing the government to pass what it wishes Or continually in direct conflict depending on when the voting took place
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Post by wagsastokie on Jul 13, 2022 9:21:48 GMT
I’m more interested in the heart felt apology that I’m sure starmer’s about to issue on how the labour run council failed vulnerable children and turned a blind eye to abuse for decades Oh and while he’s at it he could mention Rochdale Rotherham Doncaster and many others
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 13, 2022 9:23:39 GMT
I'm missing something here. Are you making a comment that non-white people need to answer for the crimes of non whites? Is it a religion thing? If so, Zahawi should speak up against Mulims? Sunak and Braverman should speak up about Hindus? Badenoch being a Christian (or Asian), can let it go?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 13, 2022 12:41:04 GMT
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 13, 2022 12:48:15 GMT
Well, well, well, what do we have here?
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jul 13, 2022 12:53:36 GMT
Well, well, well, what do we have here? Tax is for the little people.
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Post by foster on Jul 13, 2022 12:56:09 GMT
Well, well, well, what do we have here? This is probably just one reason why he said that he wouldn't make his past financial endeavours public.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Jul 13, 2022 13:22:21 GMT
Well, well, well, what do we have here? This possibly ties in with Oggy’s point (I think it was Oggy) and regulating MPs. A MPs tax affairs, past and present, should be examined before (and continue to be examined during) their time sitting as an MP. They represent the people - they should be playing the same game. I think Zahawis campaign will be done shortly, no way they’d risk taking him forward - it may open more of them up for scrutiny…
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Post by Northy on Jul 13, 2022 13:42:02 GMT
I've run the London marathon for Macmillan and know what they do, my own dad had been self employed with his own business for years, went under because large companies took so long to pay him he couldn't get stock, he ended up being cared for by Macmillan as he slowly passed away with cancer. I think you know what type of person I meant, and as I said, it was brought in for the most needy of which the person you are on about is, perhaps if there wasn't so much piss taking from others there would be more to go around. I don't need to read the Daily Mail, my Mrs worked in social housing for many years and knows the real needy people from those idle ones just on the take. There was one 2 years ago wo was caught on twitter complaining to Sky Sports with Gary Neville that he was paying £100 a month to Sky so shouldn't have to pay £15 to watch live games (proposed during the covid) he was then found to be complaining that Universal Credit wasn't enough to get by on. Oh well if there was a bloke on Twitter then that's nailed it. Well if he was then I agree - he's a twat - but I wonder how many of them you need before it adds up to just what the Sunaks ought to have paid HMRC? (Without even getting on to Zahawi). Or didn't Braverman mention them? You know as well as I do there's plenty that take the piss and defraud the state from the top and bottom (as well as the middle from the cash in hand jobs), we only hear about that ones that get caught, I was highlighting 1 case which no doubt there will be 1000's like that, benefit fraud is estimated at £1billion a year The Sunaks have shirked out of £1billion have they, they haven't committed fraud so not sure why you bring that up, morally not right but they were following rules that were in place, whether we agree with the rules or not. I haven't heard any of the chats or debates so no idea what Braverman has said.
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Post by RedandWhite90 on Jul 13, 2022 14:15:18 GMT
Oh well if there was a bloke on Twitter then that's nailed it. Well if he was then I agree - he's a twat - but I wonder how many of them you need before it adds up to just what the Sunaks ought to have paid HMRC? (Without even getting on to Zahawi). Or didn't Braverman mention them? You know as well as I do there's plenty that take the piss and defraud the state from the top and bottom (as well as the middle from the cash in hand jobs), we only hear about that ones that get caught, I was highlighting 1 case which no doubt there will be 1000's like that, benefit fraud is estimated at £1billion a year The Sunaks have shirked out of £1billion have they, they haven't committed fraud so not sure why you bring that up, morally not right but they were following rules that were in place, whether we agree with the rules or not. I haven't heard any of the chats or debates so no idea what Braverman has said. Suella Braverman is running on a tried and tested anti-scrounge campaign that has in the past been successful. Rishi Sunak lost his credibility regarding his green card, fine and wife's non-dom status (something that as a British tax-payer I found astounding given the position he held). Fraud is fraud. I would prioritising the estimated £15bn Covid fraud over £1bn of benefit fraud; the reality is both need tackling. www.ft.com/content/0bd2d141-68ea-4d6b-aa81-9300a7ab27b9As former CotE I'd also want a detailed breakdown of the test, track and trace billions. Thankfully neither will be leader, as both are quite frankly useless.
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jul 13, 2022 16:04:27 GMT
Mourdant with the Big Mo there I'd say. Although I suspect one of the right wing candidates will withdraw before tomorrow's vote
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 13, 2022 16:10:36 GMT
You know as well as I do there's plenty that take the piss and defraud the state from the top and bottom (as well as the middle from the cash in hand jobs), we only hear about that ones that get caught, I was highlighting 1 case which no doubt there will be 1000's like that, benefit fraud is estimated at £1billion a year The Sunaks have shirked out of £1billion have they, they haven't committed fraud so not sure why you bring that up, morally not right but they were following rules that were in place, whether we agree with the rules or not. I haven't heard any of the chats or debates so no idea what Braverman has said. Suella Braverman is running on a tried and tested anti-scrounge campaign that has in the past been successful. Rishi Sunak lost his credibility regarding his green card, fine and wife's non-dom status (something that as a British tax-payer I found astounding given the position he held). Fraud is fraud. I would prioritising the estimated £15bn Covid fraud over £1bn of benefit fraud; the reality is both need tackling. www.ft.com/content/0bd2d141-68ea-4d6b-aa81-9300a7ab27b9As former CotE I'd also want a detailed breakdown of the test, track and trace billions. Thankfully neither will be leader, as both are quite frankly useless. Actually being useless is absolutely no barrier to leading the Tory party. See May, Theresa and Johnson, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel of the most recent times.
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Post by milton58 on Jul 13, 2022 16:23:02 GMT
None of these fuckers deserve to pm how many spoke out against mad boz... in the beginning..two faced twats the lot of them
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Post by superjw on Jul 13, 2022 16:37:26 GMT
None of these fuckers deserve to pm how many spoke out against mad boz... in the beginning..two faced twats the lot of them None of them can be trusted in the slightest. All of them are completely out of touch with real life, especially Sunak. It's a lose/lose situation tbh.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jul 13, 2022 17:08:35 GMT
Oh well if there was a bloke on Twitter then that's nailed it. Well if he was then I agree - he's a twat - but I wonder how many of them you need before it adds up to just what the Sunaks ought to have paid HMRC? (Without even getting on to Zahawi). Or didn't Braverman mention them? You know as well as I do there's plenty that take the piss and defraud the state from the top and bottom (as well as the middle from the cash in hand jobs), we only hear about that ones that get caught, I was highlighting 1 case which no doubt there will be 1000's like that, benefit fraud is estimated at £1billion a year The Sunaks have shirked out of £1billion have they, they haven't committed fraud so not sure why you bring that up, morally not right but they were following rules that were in place, whether we agree with the rules or not. I haven't heard any of the chats or debates so no idea what Braverman has said. Oh well if there was a bloke on Twitter then that's nailed it. Well if he was then I agree - he's a twat - but I wonder how many of them you need before it adds up to just what the Sunaks ought to have paid HMRC? (Without even getting on to Zahawi). Or didn't Braverman mention them? You know as well as I do there's plenty that take the piss and defraud the state from the top and bottom (as well as the middle from the cash in hand jobs), we only hear about that ones that get caught, I was highlighting 1 case which no doubt there will be 1000's like that, benefit fraud is estimated at £1billion a year The Sunaks have shirked out of £1billion have they, they haven't committed fraud so not sure why you bring that up, morally not right but they were following rules that were in place, whether we agree with the rules or not. I haven't heard any of the chats or debates so no idea what Braverman has said. First time fraud has been mentioned and bizarre that you now say you have no idea what Braverman has said as it's precisely what she said that you initially commented on!!!! ie - too many people on benefits which you consider as a means to fund a lifestyle. Nothing in that exchange or your Twitter guy was anything to do with fraud - just a complaint that his Universal credit doesn't cover his Sky (thereby suggesting that actually it isn't that generous) Well presumably Mrs Sunak also took the view that paying tax at the rate she should in her country of residence would not be advantageous to funding HER lifestyle ,of (new swimming pool in Richmond, condominium in Florida etc) , so I mention it as a moral equivalent - just with greater sums of money involved. So you know as well as I do exactly what Braverman is about and that is demonising the poor in society and thereby hoping it is as much red meat to the Tory vote now as it has been for decades.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jul 13, 2022 19:19:16 GMT
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Post by thewonderstuff on Jul 13, 2022 19:41:06 GMT
Stewart Lewis, the Terry Henfleet of Politics! Even though he's fake I just know Stewart hates poor people though!
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Post by elystokie on Jul 13, 2022 19:52:16 GMT
Stewart Lewis, the Terry Henfleet of Politics! Even though he's fake I just know Stewart hates poor people though! Working class thickos in particular.
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