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Post by partickpotter on Jul 12, 2022 20:33:09 GMT
One thought… on the Grateful 8; Kemi Badenoch, Suella Braverman, Jeremy Hunt, Penny Mordaunt, Rishi Sunak, Liz Truss, Tom Tugendhat and Nadhim Zahawi Put aside the party for a moment and consider what it says about our society today that of the 8 candidates only two are white and male. Further they are split equally between white and non white and male and female. Back in 2005 there were 7 candidates in the Tory leadership election and all were male, pale and stale. Labour’s 2010 was not far off the same with 4 out of 5 m.p.s with Diane Abbott the 5th candidate. I think that’s a great thing! So women being under-represented is some horror show that needs correcting but white people being under-represented is "a great thing"? Virtue-signalling nonesense. I could have worded this better! But my point is diversity is a great thing and the folk competing for the leader of the Tory Party are very diverse which shows how accepting our society has become of diversity. Black, white, pink, blue, male female… it doesn’t matter.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 12, 2022 20:33:57 GMT
That's an excellent point DC. Being white in some circles does seem to be contemptible Should be based on merit, as with anything. Not on the colour of your skin or gender. Rishi, Savid and anyone already shamed shouldn't ever have been in the race. Exactly, I think those candidates have emerged on merit, on their qualities of leadership, courage erc
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 12, 2022 20:35:30 GMT
That's an excellent point DC. Being white in some circles does seem to be contemptible Should be based on merit, as with anything. Not on the colour of your skin or gender. Rishi, Savid and anyone already shamed shouldn't ever have been in the race. This is the other point. A arse is an arse regardless of sex, gender, sexuality, creed or colour. The exceptions are of course Rangers supporters. And Port Vale ones. Obviously. Even worse, Rangers supporting Port Vale supporters.
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Post by foster on Jul 12, 2022 20:38:44 GMT
Should be based on merit, as with anything. Not on the colour of your skin or gender. Rishi, Savid and anyone already shamed shouldn't ever have been in the race. Exactly, I think those candidates have emerged on merit, on their qualities of leadership, courage erc Courage? Is that your new 'sovereignty'.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 12, 2022 20:46:57 GMT
Exactly, I think those candidates have emerged on merit, on their qualities of leadership, courage erc Courage? Is that your new 'sovereignty'. No , I don't think so. Sovereignty, making decisions for yourself, is important, It's a shame that some of those who think they are on the New Left , representing ordinary people don't get it. Never mind. Yes courage is one of the main qualities of genuine leadership. Its not always easy to stand up for what you really believe, but when you do, sometimes many people follow.
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Post by foster on Jul 12, 2022 20:49:38 GMT
Courage? Is that your new 'sovereignty'. No , I don't think so. Sovereignty, making decisions for yourself, is important, It's a shame that some of those who think they are on the New Left , representing ordinary people don't get it. Never mind. Yes courage is one of the main qualities of genuine leadership. Its not always easy to stand up for what you really believe, but when you do, sometimes many people follow. So you believe this bunch of politicians have 'courage' and integrity then 😄 Crack on
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 12, 2022 20:52:39 GMT
No , I don't think so. Sovereignty, making decisions for yourself, is important, It's a shame that some of those who think they are on the New Left , representing ordinary people don't get it. Never mind. Yes courage is one of the main qualities of genuine leadership. Its not always easy to stand up for what you really believe, but when you do, sometimes many people follow. So you believe this bunch of politicians have 'courage' and integrity then 😄 Crack on I have not said that , so I don't know what you are talking about. I'm glad you've picked up on and understood the " crack on" reply it might help you. Crack on
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Post by foster on Jul 12, 2022 21:02:46 GMT
So you believe this bunch of politicians have 'courage' and integrity then 😄 Crack on I have not said that , so I don't know what you are talking about. I'm glad you've picked up on and understood the " crack on" reply it might help you. Crack on You literally said 2 posts ago regarding the Tory candidates... "Exactly, I think those candidates have emerged on merit, on their qualities of leadership, courage erc" I'm not sure you know what you're writing anymore mate Crack on.
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Post by andystokey on Jul 12, 2022 21:03:29 GMT
Should be based on merit, as with anything. Not on the colour of your skin or gender. Rishi, Savid and anyone already shamed shouldn't ever have been in the race. This is the other point. A arse is an arse regardless of sex, gender, sexuality, creed or colour. The exceptions are of course Rangers supporters. And Port Vale ones. Obviously. Even worse, Rangers supporting Port Vale supporters. I do wonder how this will play out in the new blue wall seats when they realise they are being asked to pay £3000pa on their electricity and being urged to resist inflationary pay rises by two extremely wealthy who men keep playing up their immigrant heritage. Rishi was the most vocal in suggesting the extra £20 on UC had to go, yet his wife has more money than the Queen. Sunak and Zahawi are both committed to downward pressure on the wages of key workers.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 12, 2022 21:10:42 GMT
I have not said that , so I don't know what you are talking about. I'm glad you've picked up on and understood the " crack on" reply it might help you. Crack on You literally said 2 posts ago regarding the Tory candidates... "Exactly, I think those candidates have emerged on merit, on their qualities of leadership, courage erc" I'm not sure you know what you're writing anymore mate Crack on. Yes they have emerged on merit as opposed to quotas/ manipulation. I'm sure you're not sure what I'm writing any more , mate. Crack on ( it's really catching on)
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Post by andystokey on Jul 12, 2022 21:14:12 GMT
You literally said 2 posts ago regarding the Tory candidates... "Exactly, I think those candidates have emerged on merit, on their qualities of leadership, courage erc" I'm not sure you know what you're writing anymore mate Crack on. Yes they have emerged on merit as opposed to quotas/ manipulation. I'm sure you're not sure what I'm writing any more , mate. Crack on ( it's really catching on) On merit? Really? They put themselves forward in the first instance after sacking their boss. Javid had so much merit he lasted less than 48hrs before quitting. 🤣
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 12, 2022 21:22:07 GMT
Yes they have emerged on merit as opposed to quotas/ manipulation. I'm sure you're not sure what I'm writing any more , mate. Crack on ( it's really catching on) On merit? Really? They put themselves forward in the first instance after sacking their boss. Javid had so much merit he lasted less than 48hrs before quitting. 🤣 I don't think Javid is in the running now is he? Yes on merit. No quotas. Personalities and beliefs. It is the easy part to criticise the government , particularly in recent history of Brexit Covid and Ukraine. Unfortunately, several of those people have more character, more belief in Britain , than alternatives from other parties, irrespective of gender, colour or race, in my opinion. Of course you can suggest alternatives.....how about Starmer for a starter? What do you think of Kemi?
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jul 12, 2022 21:33:39 GMT
On merit? Really? They put themselves forward in the first instance after sacking their boss. Javid had so much merit he lasted less than 48hrs before quitting. 🤣 I don't think Javid is in the running now is he? Yes on merit. No quotas. Personalities and beliefs. It is the easy part to criticise the government , particularly in recent history of Brexit Covid and Ukraine. Unfortunately, several of those people have more character, more belief in Britain , than alternatives from other parties, irrespective of gender, colour or race, in my opinion. Of course you can suggest alternatives.....how about Starmer for a starter? What do you think of Kemi? Indeed - one of them believed in Britain so much he retained a US citizenship and a non-dom wife while he was Chancellor of the Exchequer!!!!
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Post by andystokey on Jul 12, 2022 21:35:47 GMT
On merit? Really? They put themselves forward in the first instance after sacking their boss. Javid had so much merit he lasted less than 48hrs before quitting. 🤣 I don't think Javid is in the running now is he? Yes on merit. No quotas. Personalities and beliefs. It is the easy part to criticise the government , particularly in recent history of Brexit Covid and Ukraine. Unfortunately, several of those people have more character, more belief in Britain , than alternatives from other parties, irrespective of gender, colour or race, in my opinion. Of course you can suggest alternatives.....how about Starmer for a starter? Anyone who was supporting Boris until a week ago while he embarrassed the country with his lies has no merit. They were wheeled out every morning to perpetuate the lies on breakfast TV, which they dutifully did, yet you claim they have courage and character. That only leaves two of the candidates from eight that by implication should even be considered on that basis and neither of them stand a chance. It's silly to suggest they are doing this for any reason than ego or self aggrandizement.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 12, 2022 21:37:07 GMT
I don't think Javid is in the running now is he? Yes on merit. No quotas. Personalities and beliefs. It is the easy part to criticise the government , particularly in recent history of Brexit Covid and Ukraine. Unfortunately, several of those people have more character, more belief in Britain , than alternatives from other parties, irrespective of gender, colour or race, in my opinion. Of course you can suggest alternatives.....how about Starmer for a starter? What do you think of Kemi? Indeed - one of them believed in Britain so much he retained a US citizenship and a non-dom wife while he was Chancellor of the Exchequer!!!! Ate, it seems like Kemi is the best of the bunch then , what do you think of her?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 12, 2022 21:42:57 GMT
I don't think Javid is in the running now is he? Yes on merit. No quotas. Personalities and beliefs. It is the easy part to criticise the government , particularly in recent history of Brexit Covid and Ukraine. Unfortunately, several of those people have more character, more belief in Britain , than alternatives from other parties, irrespective of gender, colour or race, in my opinion. Of course you can suggest alternatives.....how about Starmer for a starter? Anyone who was supporting Boris until a week ago while he embarrassed the country with his lies has no merit. They were wheeled out every morning to perpetuate the lies on breakfast TV, which they dutifully did, yet you claim they have courage and character. That only leaves two of the candidates from eight that by implication should even be considered on that basis and neither of them stand a chance. It's silly to suggest they are doing this for any reason than ego or self aggrandizement. I think it is difficult to read toi much into the reasons that politicians back or otherwise their leader.....but obviously the opposition will look to exploit every opportunity Do you think Kemi is the best candidate then?
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Post by andystokey on Jul 12, 2022 21:49:09 GMT
Anyone who was supporting Boris until a week ago while he embarrassed the country with his lies has no merit. They were wheeled out every morning to perpetuate the lies on breakfast TV, which they dutifully did, yet you claim they have courage and character. That only leaves two of the candidates from eight that by implication should even be considered on that basis and neither of them stand a chance. It's silly to suggest they are doing this for any reason than ego or self aggrandizement. I think it is difficult to read toi much into the reasons that politicians back or otherwise their leader.....but obviously the opposition will look to exploit every opportunity Do you think Kemi is the best candidate then? What is she planning to do to bring down NHS waiting lists and how will she ensure that people don't need to go into "warmth banks" this winter? If you know how she's going to position herself on the Northern Ireland protocol and prepare Britain for a net zero target then I'll tell you. If you expect me to choose on the basis she's less tainted than Truss, Sunak or Zahawi that's not how I vote.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Jul 12, 2022 21:51:47 GMT
Anyone who was supporting Boris until a week ago while he embarrassed the country with his lies has no merit. They were wheeled out every morning to perpetuate the lies on breakfast TV, which they dutifully did, yet you claim they have courage and character. That only leaves two of the candidates from eight that by implication should even be considered on that basis and neither of them stand a chance. It's silly to suggest they are doing this for any reason than ego or self aggrandizement. I think it is difficult to read toi much into the reasons that politicians back or otherwise their leader.....but obviously the opposition will look to exploit every opportunity Do you think Kemi is the best candidate then? I'd be lying if I said I knew much about her before this week. However - philosophically I do not believe that either 'small state' or 'anti green' are the way forward for the challenges we are facing both nationally and globally - and as she's both of those she's not for me - however nice or otherwise she might be as a dinner guest.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 12, 2022 21:55:11 GMT
I think it is difficult to read toi much into the reasons that politicians back or otherwise their leader.....but obviously the opposition will look to exploit every opportunity Do you think Kemi is the best candidate then? What is she planning to do to bring down NHS waiting lists and how will she ensure that people don't need to go into "warmth banks" this winter? If you know how she's going to position herself on the Northern Ireland protocol and prepare Britain for a net zero target then I'll tell you. If you expect me to choose on the basis she's less tainted than Truss, Sunak or Zahawi that's not how I vote. They are good questions facing all leaders/ governments/ those in power. Has anyone got a good answer? Pragmatically speaking , one of the eight candidates is going to be the next PM....Kemi seems the best of the bunch doesn't she, pragmatically speaking.,...or would you rather not say, as Starmer would be much better on those issues?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 12, 2022 21:58:06 GMT
I think it is difficult to read toi much into the reasons that politicians back or otherwise their leader.....but obviously the opposition will look to exploit every opportunity Do you think Kemi is the best candidate then? I'd be lying if I said I knew much about her before this week. However - philosophically I do not believe that either 'small state' or 'anti green' are the way forward for the challenges we are facing both nationally and globally - and as she's both of those she's not for me - however nice or otherwise she might be as a dinner guest. Is she actually saying the things you say? Or rather....she explains the reasons for her position which isn't quite as black-and-white white as you imply. What's your answer/ suggestion then ?
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Post by andystokey on Jul 12, 2022 22:04:06 GMT
What is she planning to do to bring down NHS waiting lists and how will she ensure that people don't need to go into "warmth banks" this winter? If you know how she's going to position herself on the Northern Ireland protocol and prepare Britain for a net zero target then I'll tell you. If you expect me to choose on the basis she's less tainted than Truss, Sunak or Zahawi that's not how I vote. They are good questions facing all leaders/ governments/ those in power. Has anyone got a good answer? Pragmatically speaking , one of the eight candidates is going to be the next PM....Kemi seems the best of the bunch doesn't she, pragmatically speaking.,...or would you rather not say, as Starmer would be much better on those issues? There doesn't seem to be an anti austerity candidate standing does there? I suppose Sunak is nearest but frankly he has so much other laundry it's difficult to see past that. I can't accept a tax cut makes any sense. If I'm honest I can't see this parliament going full term with the shit that is piled up and coming this winter. It's very reminiscent of Callaghan so if we are going to have a GE in a year may as well have it now because none of these 8 will be around by then imo.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 12, 2022 22:11:37 GMT
They are good questions facing all leaders/ governments/ those in power. Has anyone got a good answer? Pragmatically speaking , one of the eight candidates is going to be the next PM....Kemi seems the best of the bunch doesn't she, pragmatically speaking.,...or would you rather not say, as Starmer would be much better on those issues? There doesn't seem to be an anti austerity candidate standing does there? I suppose Sunak is nearest but frankly he has so much other laundry it's difficult to see past that. I can't accept a tax cut makes any sense. If I'm honest I can't see this parliament going full term with the shit that is piled up and coming this winter. It's very reminiscent of Callaghan so if we are going to have a GE in a year may as well have it now because none of these 8 will be around by then imo. I think once the candidate is selected, the Tory party will get behind him/ her 100%, and the Johnson era will be forgotten, even by the electorate. Obviously Northern Ireland , Ukraine , the economy, relations with the EU, fuel etc will be big issues for the new leader.....but the pressure will be on Starmer to promote alternatives. What are they?
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Post by andystokey on Jul 12, 2022 22:21:33 GMT
There doesn't seem to be an anti austerity candidate standing does there? I suppose Sunak is nearest but frankly he has so much other laundry it's difficult to see past that. I can't accept a tax cut makes any sense. If I'm honest I can't see this parliament going full term with the shit that is piled up and coming this winter. It's very reminiscent of Callaghan so if we are going to have a GE in a year may as well have it now because none of these 8 will be around by then imo. I think once the candidate is selected, the Tory party will get behind him/ her 100%, and the Johnson era will be forgotten, even by the electorate. Obviously Northern Ireland , Ukraine , the economy, relations with the EU, fuel etc will be big issues for the new leader.....but the pressure will be on Starmer to promote alternatives. What are they? Labour will leave tax as it is and would I imagine inherit massive NHS waiting lists. They will also inherit significant debt but the NHS needs addressing post Covid, first and foremost people need to be able to be well to enjoy life. Infrastructure is the way to go by spending public money to insulate homes. A tax system that levels the playing field between multinational tech firms and small business. A proper levelling up agenda that builds jobs and Infrastructure and local public transport. and if it was me.. I'd scrap HS2 and move some of the offices of state from London to the regions to democratise the state geographically and the jobs with them.
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Post by oggyoggy on Jul 12, 2022 22:38:18 GMT
On merit? Really? They put themselves forward in the first instance after sacking their boss. Javid had so much merit he lasted less than 48hrs before quitting. 🤣 I don't think Javid is in the running now is he? Yes on merit. No quotas. Personalities and beliefs. It is the easy part to criticise the government , particularly in recent history of Brexit Covid and Ukraine. Unfortunately, several of those people have more character, more belief in Britain , than alternatives from other parties, irrespective of gender, colour or race, in my opinion. Of course you can suggest alternatives.....how about Starmer for a starter? What do you think of Kemi? Kemi is an absolute disgrace. Motivated purely by spreading hatred and division. It’s all about culture wars for Kemi. Same with Suella
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Post by creweoatcake1 on Jul 13, 2022 5:51:43 GMT
I think once the candidate is selected, the Tory party will get behind him/ her 100%, and the Johnson era will be forgotten, even by the electorate. Obviously Northern Ireland , Ukraine , the economy, relations with the EU, fuel etc will be big issues for the new leader.....but the pressure will be on Starmer to promote alternatives. What are they? Labour will leave tax as it is and would I imagine inherit massive NHS waiting lists. They will also inherit significant debt but the NHS needs addressing post Covid, first and foremost people need to be able to be well to enjoy life. Infrastructure is the way to go by spending public money to insulate homes. A tax system that levels the playing field between multinational tech firms and small business. A proper levelling up agenda that builds jobs and Infrastructure and local public transport. and if it was me.. I'd scrap HS2 and move some of the offices of state from London to the regions to democratise the state geographically and the jobs with them. Maybe not the right thread for this! However, having recently retiring after 47 years working within the Railway Network, In my honest opinion it would be a very backward move to scrap HS2! The current Network (infrastructure) is saturated!
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 13, 2022 6:10:51 GMT
I think once the candidate is selected, the Tory party will get behind him/ her 100%, and the Johnson era will be forgotten, even by the electorate. Obviously Northern Ireland , Ukraine , the economy, relations with the EU, fuel etc will be big issues for the new leader.....but the pressure will be on Starmer to promote alternatives. What are they? Labour will leave tax as it is and would I imagine inherit massive NHS waiting lists. They will also inherit significant debt but the NHS needs addressing post Covid, first and foremost people need to be able to be well to enjoy life. Infrastructure is the way to go by spending public money to insulate homes. A tax system that levels the playing field between multinational tech firms and small business. A proper levelling up agenda that builds jobs and Infrastructure and local public transport. and if it was me.. I'd scrap HS2 and move some of the offices of state from London to the regions to democratise the state geographically and the jobs with them. Would Labour nationalise the Utilities, Railways or abolish ( not Reform ) the H of L ? You've said what you'd do , I'm not sure what Starmer stands for.
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Post by questionable on Jul 13, 2022 6:17:15 GMT
Last year I helped someone with a life limiting illness who had been self employed and had to permanently close their business apply for a Personal Independence Payment. What they had to go through to get it was actually quite distressing and what they got at the end of it was barely enough to live on. It just about covers a trip to Lidl so forget Sky TV or Louis Vuitton accessories or anything else you might have read in The Mail. I got lot of advice on the application from MacMillan - perhaps you'd like to slag them of for encouraging benefit claimants. I don't know you but I really hope you or yours never find yourselves in that position I've run the London marathon for Macmillan and know what they do, my own dad had been self employed with his own business for years, went under because large companies took so long to pay him he couldn't get stock, he ended up being cared for by Macmillan as he slowly passed away with cancer. I think you know what type of person I meant, and as I said, it was brought in for the most needy of which the person you are on about is, perhaps if there wasn't so much piss taking from others there would be more to go around. I don't need to read the Daily Mail, my Mrs worked in social housing for many years and knows the real needy people from those idle ones just on the take. There was one 2 years ago wo was caught on twitter complaining to Sky Sports with Gary Neville that he was paying £100 a month to Sky so shouldn't have to pay £15 to watch live games (proposed during the covid) he was then found to be complaining that Universal Credit wasn't enough to get by on. My dad has advanced Alzheimer’s and can my mum get help can she ...., there’s little if any companies out there who are taking people on like my dad as they simply don’t have the staff, people don’t want this kind of work due to a/crap pay b/ everything is so expensive
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Jul 13, 2022 6:49:20 GMT
Labour will leave tax as it is and would I imagine inherit massive NHS waiting lists. They will also inherit significant debt but the NHS needs addressing post Covid, first and foremost people need to be able to be well to enjoy life. Infrastructure is the way to go by spending public money to insulate homes. A tax system that levels the playing field between multinational tech firms and small business. A proper levelling up agenda that builds jobs and Infrastructure and local public transport. and if it was me.. I'd scrap HS2 and move some of the offices of state from London to the regions to democratise the state geographically and the jobs with them. Would Labour nationalise the Utilities, Railways or abolish ( not Reform ) the H of L ? You've said what you'd do , I'm not sure what Starmer stands for. Would Kemi Badenoch do any of those things?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jul 13, 2022 7:12:02 GMT
Would Labour nationalise the Utilities, Railways or abolish ( not Reform ) the H of L ? You've said what you'd do , I'm not sure what Starmer stands for. Would Kemi Badenoch do any of those things? I very much doubt it, she's much too right wing, I'd have thought they'd belong to a left leaning person or party.
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Post by andystokey on Jul 13, 2022 8:17:59 GMT
Would Kemi Badenoch do any of those things? I very much doubt it, she's much too right wing, I'd have thought they'd belong to a left leaning person or party. Why so? We had a very heated debate and referendum by a generation wanting to take back control. Regardless of the politics I've always been of the opinion that water, electricity, energy and communications are strategic infrastructure that shouldn't be run by foreign companies making money for shareholders or governments that can prioritise their own citizens over ours. I think you will find that post Ukraine and as we move towards increasing climate insecurity most of these coming back under state control will become the mainstream. Its time to rethink Thatchers big sell off. The idea that 70% of privatised water companies are owned offshore should be worrying in the next 20 years. Hundreds of millions of pounds are made abroad from running British utilities mostly by European governments at a cost to UK population. Not a single railway in the world operates completely under private ownership, if we want to encourage energy security nasser movement to public transport will be essential. The time is perfect for people to recognise that the UK security is in the hands of UK taxpayers. As a fan of sovereignty I'm sure you agree, I think you are stuck in an 80s version of public ownership.
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