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Post by noustie on Sept 12, 2022 10:11:25 GMT
Wholesale gas prices have halved in the last 20 days, looking forward to seeing the suppliers adjust their prices accordingly.......... Appreciate other stuff is going on but quite telling the media aren't as vocal in reporting it halving as they were to it doubling. Christ it was getting to the point I was fattening the dog up in case needed to eat her at Christmas.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 12, 2022 10:15:48 GMT
Wholesale gas prices have halved in the last 20 days, looking forward to seeing the suppliers adjust their prices accordingly.......... Appreciate other stuff is going on but quite telling the media aren't as vocal in reporting it halving as they were to it doubling. Christ it was getting to the point I was fattening the dog up in case needed to eat her at Christmas. 90 minutes of news this morning and not one non-Royal Family related report. It's ridiculous when there is so much going on in Ukraine, around the world and domestically.......
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Post by LL Cool Dave on Sept 12, 2022 11:00:58 GMT
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Post by superjw on Sept 12, 2022 13:06:32 GMT
Wholesale gas prices have halved in the last 20 days, looking forward to seeing the suppliers adjust their prices accordingly.......... But but but, "that's different" according to the energy companies. Just like with petrol and diesel. Raise prices at the slightest whiff, but never lower when they should
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Post by andystokey on Sept 12, 2022 16:48:33 GMT
Wholesale gas prices have halved in the last 20 days, looking forward to seeing the suppliers adjust their prices accordingly.......... Are the energy companies motivated to do anything with prices now they have been promised a tax payer handout for the foreseeable future?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 12, 2022 18:00:31 GMT
Wholesale gas prices have halved in the last 20 days, looking forward to seeing the suppliers adjust their prices accordingly.......... Are the energy companies motivated to do anything with prices now they have been promised a tax payer handout for the foreseeable future? I would doubt it very much…….
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Post by terryconroysmagic on Sept 12, 2022 19:41:21 GMT
The government should mandate that your bill is based on wholesale rate (average per month or rolling etc) plus the providers mark up.
This does 2 things:
Ensure the wholesale rate is always the base rate with no surreptitious time lags, and
Would provide transparency as to the providers margin (enabling people to shop around)
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Sept 13, 2022 16:46:55 GMT
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Post by andystokey on Sept 15, 2022 7:55:18 GMT
I see still no details or idea how heating oil, bio mass and lpg will be "capped".
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Post by OldStokie on Sept 15, 2022 10:02:02 GMT
Are the energy companies motivated to do anything with prices now they have been promised a tax payer handout for the foreseeable future? I would doubt it very much……. From my understanding, the utility companies haven't been given any handouts. They've been promised a loan pot that may reach 150 billion if things go really tits up, and then they can pay back that loan by raising bills for the next decade or so. I may be wrong, but if the price of crude and gas drop then the refiners will be quids in unless they drop their wholesale prices to the utility companies. It's the suppliers and refiners who need to pay the piper but Truss has said quite clearly that she won't impose a windfall tax on them. So, if those suppliers/refiners continue to rake in their massive profits then any overcharge we users have to pay will be a direct payment to bolster those excess profits. Our beef should be with the suppliers/refiners and not with the utility companies. But that's ideological neocapitalism for you, and that's what Truss stands for. OS.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Sept 15, 2022 10:24:13 GMT
I would doubt it very much……. From my understanding, the utility companies haven't been given any handouts. They've been promised a loan pot that may reach 150 billion if things go really tits up, and then they can pay back that loan by raising bills for the next decade or so. I may be wrong, but if the price of crude and gas drop then the refiners will be quids in unless they drop their wholesale prices to the utility companies. It's the suppliers and refiners who need to pay the piper but Truss has said quite clearly that she won't impose a windfall tax on them. So, if those suppliers/refiners continue to rake in their massive profits then any overcharge we users have to pay will be a direct payment to bolster those excess profits. Our beef should be with the suppliers/refiners and not with the utility companies. But that's ideological neocapitalism for you, and that's what Truss stands for. OS. In the most simple terms if the market price drops then the price the refiners and producers can charge also drops as almost all purchasers of wholesale purchase against published indices. They can manipulate the market price by restricting or increasing supply (which is what OPEC does periodically with Oil and Putin is now doing with gas) but not by charging something different to the market. The arguement producers will make is that when the market price is very low they barely cover their production costs and no-one helps them out - so it's 'swings and roundabouts' I'm not feeling sorry for them because generally they do owrate but the debate is a bit more complex than just 'tax the bastards'.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 15, 2022 11:49:29 GMT
From my understanding, the utility companies haven't been given any handouts. They've been promised a loan pot that may reach 150 billion if things go really tits up, and then they can pay back that loan by raising bills for the next decade or so. I may be wrong, but if the price of crude and gas drop then the refiners will be quids in unless they drop their wholesale prices to the utility companies. It's the suppliers and refiners who need to pay the piper but Truss has said quite clearly that she won't impose a windfall tax on them. So, if those suppliers/refiners continue to rake in their massive profits then any overcharge we users have to pay will be a direct payment to bolster those excess profits. Our beef should be with the suppliers/refiners and not with the utility companies. But that's ideological neocapitalism for you, and that's what Truss stands for. OS. In the most simple terms if the market price drops then the price the refiners and producers can charge also drops as almost all purchasers of wholesale purchase against published indices. They can manipulate the market price by restricting or increasing supply (which is what OPEC does periodically with Oil and Putin is now doing with gas) but not by charging something different to the market. The arguement producers will make is that when the market price is very low they barely cover their production costs and no-one helps them out - so it's 'swings and roundabouts' I'm not feeling sorry for them because generally they do owrate but the debate is a bit more complex than just 'tax the bastards'. The big 5 energy companies have made a collective profit of £9 billion since 2016, which doesn't suggest "swings and roundabouts" in fairness.........
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Sept 15, 2022 12:28:25 GMT
In the most simple terms if the market price drops then the price the refiners and producers can charge also drops as almost all purchasers of wholesale purchase against published indices. They can manipulate the market price by restricting or increasing supply (which is what OPEC does periodically with Oil and Putin is now doing with gas) but not by charging something different to the market. The arguement producers will make is that when the market price is very low they barely cover their production costs and no-one helps them out - so it's 'swings and roundabouts' I'm not feeling sorry for them because generally they do owrate but the debate is a bit more complex than just 'tax the bastards'. The big 5 energy companies have made a collective profit of £9 billion since 2016, which doesn't suggest "swings and roundabouts" in fairness......... In an industry where building a production plant can take up to 10 years and payback up to 20 I'm not sure shouting out a random number that someone doesn't like is particularly helpful. For many years the UK enjoyed some of the lowest energy prices in Europe. Up until 2 years ago consumer 'Champion' Martin Lewis was saying there was no need for an energy price cap because anyone with half a brain can just get a good deal on any number of price comparison sites from any number of suppliers. What he didn't say - I know not why - was that the consumer retail market wasn't adequately regulated so most of these were not adequately hedged - so they couldn't withstand a market shock, they therefore went tits up and a lot of people have ended up paying much more than they should even 12 months on. Now he's screaming for a price cap - so in a way maybe thank God the Big 6 are still here otherwise we'd all be royally fucked. I'm not here to defend Energy companies, nor do I think the current short term issues should be addressed soley at the taxpayer's expense but I do find a lot of discussion around energy incredibly reductive when it's a massive agenda both for now and our long term future that's been largely ignored by almost all stakeholders (government, producers and consumers) for far too long.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 15, 2022 13:26:08 GMT
The big 5 energy companies have made a collective profit of £9 billion since 2016, which doesn't suggest "swings and roundabouts" in fairness......... In an industry where building a production plant can take up to 10 years and payback up to 20 I'm not sure shouting out a random number that someone doesn't like is particularly helpful. For many years the UK enjoyed some of the lowest energy prices in Europe. Up until 2 years ago consumer 'Champion' Martin Lewis was saying there was no need for an energy price cap because anyone with half a brain can just get a good deal on any number of price comparison sites from any number of suppliers. What he didn't say - I know not why - was that the consumer retail market wasn't adequately regulated so most of these were not adequately hedged - so they couldn't withstand a market shock, they therefore went tits up and a lot of people have ended up paying much more than they should even 12 months on. Now he's screaming for a price cap - so in a way maybe thank God the Big 6 are still here otherwise we'd all be royally fucked. I'm not here to defend Energy companies, nor do I think the current short term issues should be addressed soley at the taxpayer's expense but I do find a lot of discussion around energy incredibly reductive when it's a massive agenda both for now and our long term future that's been largely ignored by almost all stakeholders (government, producers and consumers) for far too long. The cash reserves on their balance sheets are even more impressive, I won't quote the number though as I might accused of it being "random" You'll have to take the rest up with Martin Lewis.........
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Post by swampmongrel on Sept 15, 2022 13:44:34 GMT
The government should mandate that your bill is based on wholesale rate (average per month or rolling etc) plus the providers mark up. This does 2 things: Ensure the wholesale rate is always the base rate with no surreptitious time lags, and Would provide transparency as to the providers margin (enabling people to shop around) That’s essentially what the price cap is/was. The difference now is that wholesale prices have gone nuts and far exceed the (new) price cap. The government picking up the tab.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Sept 15, 2022 14:08:14 GMT
In an industry where building a production plant can take up to 10 years and payback up to 20 I'm not sure shouting out a random number that someone doesn't like is particularly helpful. For many years the UK enjoyed some of the lowest energy prices in Europe. Up until 2 years ago consumer 'Champion' Martin Lewis was saying there was no need for an energy price cap because anyone with half a brain can just get a good deal on any number of price comparison sites from any number of suppliers. What he didn't say - I know not why - was that the consumer retail market wasn't adequately regulated so most of these were not adequately hedged - so they couldn't withstand a market shock, they therefore went tits up and a lot of people have ended up paying much more than they should even 12 months on. Now he's screaming for a price cap - so in a way maybe thank God the Big 6 are still here otherwise we'd all be royally fucked. I'm not here to defend Energy companies, nor do I think the current short term issues should be addressed soley at the taxpayer's expense but I do find a lot of discussion around energy incredibly reductive when it's a massive agenda both for now and our long term future that's been largely ignored by almost all stakeholders (government, producers and consumers) for far too long. The cash reserves on their balance sheets are even more impressive, I won't quote the number though as I might accused of it being "random" You'll have to take the rest up with Martin Lewis......... So they're well run International companies. Just not terribly well run in terms the UK's best interest. But then we've not had a coherent energy strategy for the UK in living memory so they've got nothing to play into even if they wanted to. Meanwhile a lot of people are struggling with food bills while Tesco - who have banked land, wrecked high streets and screwed suppliers at home and abroad for decades - are making £2.5bn annual profits. How far do you want to go?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Sept 15, 2022 14:10:46 GMT
The cash reserves on their balance sheets are even more impressive, I won't quote the number though as I might accused of it being "random" You'll have to take the rest up with Martin Lewis......... So they're well run International companies. Just not terribly well run in terms the UK's best interest. But then we've not had a coherent energy strategy for the UK in living memory so they've got nothing to play into even if they wanted to. Meanwhile a lot of people are struggling with food bills while Tesco - who have banked land, wrecked high streets and screwed suppliers at home and abroad for decades - are making £2.5bn annual profits. How far do you want to go?In terms of energy, water and rail that's fairly clear, bring them into public control..............
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Sept 15, 2022 14:40:40 GMT
So they're well run International companies. Just not terribly well run in terms the UK's best interest. But then we've not had a coherent energy strategy for the UK in living memory so they've got nothing to play into even if they wanted to. Meanwhile a lot of people are struggling with food bills while Tesco - who have banked land, wrecked high streets and screwed suppliers at home and abroad for decades - are making £2.5bn annual profits. How far do you want to go?In terms of energy, water and rail that's fairly clear, bring them into public control.............. Why? What else runs well in public hands? The NHS? MOD Procurement? Stoke-on-Trent City Council? I must admit it runs contrary to what I would ordinarily believe but the thought of taking anything of strategic importance and putting it in the hands of our corrupt and incompetent political class horrifies me.
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Post by andystokey on Sept 15, 2022 14:54:45 GMT
In terms of energy, water and rail that's fairly clear, bring them into public control.............. Why? What else runs well in public hands? The NHS? MOD Procurement? Stoke-on-Trent City Council? I must admit it runs contrary to what I would ordinarily believe but the thought of taking anything of strategic importance and putting it in the hands of our corrupt and incompetent political class horrifies me. We could try community ownership of the green energy sector as it grows and remove our reliance on these mega corporations, by building community on-shore wind and solar. Additionally with a priming fund from the taxpayer we could collectively take on ownership of local water resources for the benefit of the community.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Sept 15, 2022 16:16:53 GMT
Why? What else runs well in public hands? The NHS? MOD Procurement? Stoke-on-Trent City Council? I must admit it runs contrary to what I would ordinarily believe but the thought of taking anything of strategic importance and putting it in the hands of our corrupt and incompetent political class horrifies me. We could try community ownership of the green energy sector as it grows and remove our reliance on these mega corporations, by building community on-shore wind and solar. Additionally with a priming fund from the taxpayer we could collectively take on ownership of local water resources for the benefit of the community. We could - and have been able to for quite a while. In a previous life I tried to get a few of these off the ground but got little support as short term payback was always a hurdle and it was seen as quicker and cheaper just to buy from the grid. I was also at London Transport when they sold of their own independent generation at Lots Road in favour of taking from the grid (the economics of refurbishment was obviously a significant factor but getting rid of your own energy security is a big call). Hopefully the current circumstances will focus a few minds - particularly if we get to see blackouts. All of which talks to my point - I'm no fan of the big boys but it's much more complex than just blaming them - both the govt a lot of users have allowed themselves to sleepwalk into this situation.
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Post by swampmongrel on Sept 15, 2022 16:54:09 GMT
I’m not expert in this (or much else) but checking the stock prices of the big oil and gas producers and it doesn’t look like they’re supernormal profits being made.
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Post by toppercorner on Sept 21, 2022 9:04:00 GMT
Can anyone explain to me in layman's terms, as to why our energy bills continue to rise, if the cost of gas/oil has decreased enormously in the last few months?
The President of the USA says we're back down to March levels, and the tweet below (I haven't verified this) IF it's true, why our bills are so high? Why has our standing charges remained high?
Truss isn't going to land her ex-employer with a windfall tax (Shell 1996-2001)
I have a theory (my own) that she announced the £2.5k cap after she learnt of the drop in wholesale costs for gas/oil, thereby she looks good to the voters, but in pro-active, she's done nothing, but keep bills artificially high for her donors and friends.
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Post by OldStokie on Sept 21, 2022 9:22:13 GMT
Can anyone explain to me in layman's terms, as to why our energy bills continue to rise, if the cost of gas/oil has decreased enormously in the last few months? The President of the USA says we're back down to March levels, and the tweet below (I haven't verified this) IF it's true, why our bills are so high? Why has our standing charges remained high? Truss isn't going to land her ex-employer with a windfall tax (Shell 1996-2001) I have a theory (my own) that she announced the £2.5k cap after she learnt of the drop in wholesale costs for gas/oil, thereby she looks good to the voters, but in pro-active, she's done nothing, but keep bills artificially high for her donors and friends. When Biden is talking about 'gar prices', is he not referring to petrol rather than gas as we know it? Our petrol prices have also come down about 20p a litre. OS.
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Post by foster on Sept 21, 2022 9:29:29 GMT
Can anyone explain to me in layman's terms, as to why our energy bills continue to rise, if the cost of gas/oil has decreased enormously in the last few months? The President of the USA says we're back down to March levels, and the tweet below (I haven't verified this) IF it's true, why our bills are so high? Why has our standing charges remained high? Truss isn't going to land her ex-employer with a windfall tax (Shell 1996-2001) I have a theory (my own) that she announced the £2.5k cap after she learnt of the drop in wholesale costs for gas/oil, thereby she looks good to the voters, but in pro-active, she's done nothing, but keep bills artificially high for her donors and friends. Isn't it because energy companies use a forecast of what they think gas/oil is going to cost them (in the coming 6 months) to determine what the CAP is for the consumer. Therefore they've already vastly overestimated their costs and made billions off of the back of consumers who still continue to pay them extortionate amounts based on overinflated forecasts. Apparently these forecasts and CAP can only be updated once every 6 months (for the consumer) and even though the energy providers continue to milk consumers there's no way of getting that money back to those that paid it. Instead, some of that profit (not enough) goes as taxes to the government who then give part of it back in handouts making them look like they're doing everyone a favour. Note, I may be slightly incorrect here but in basic terms that's how it seems to me.
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Post by toppercorner on Sept 21, 2022 9:45:17 GMT
Can anyone explain to me in layman's terms, as to why our energy bills continue to rise, if the cost of gas/oil has decreased enormously in the last few months? The President of the USA says we're back down to March levels, and the tweet below (I haven't verified this) IF it's true, why our bills are so high? Why has our standing charges remained high? Truss isn't going to land her ex-employer with a windfall tax (Shell 1996-2001) I have a theory (my own) that she announced the £2.5k cap after she learnt of the drop in wholesale costs for gas/oil, thereby she looks good to the voters, but in pro-active, she's done nothing, but keep bills artificially high for her donors and friends. When Biden is talking about 'gar prices', is he not referring to petrol rather than gas as we know it? Our petrol prices have also come down about 20p a litre. OS. Yes, i understand that, and i actually saw a petrol station go down into 1.59 territory! But why are our standing charges raised immediately, but then not reduced immediately? As far as i can tell, nothing changes there?
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Post by toppercorner on Sept 21, 2022 9:46:13 GMT
Can anyone explain to me in layman's terms, as to why our energy bills continue to rise, if the cost of gas/oil has decreased enormously in the last few months? The President of the USA says we're back down to March levels, and the tweet below (I haven't verified this) IF it's true, why our bills are so high? Why has our standing charges remained high? Truss isn't going to land her ex-employer with a windfall tax (Shell 1996-2001) I have a theory (my own) that she announced the £2.5k cap after she learnt of the drop in wholesale costs for gas/oil, thereby she looks good to the voters, but in pro-active, she's done nothing, but keep bills artificially high for her donors and friends. Isn't it because energy companies use a forecast of what they think gas/oil is going to cost them (in the coming 6 months) to determine what the CAP is for the consumer. Therefore they've already vastly overestimated their costs and made billions off of the back of consumers who still continue to pay them extortionate amounts based on overinflated forecasts. Apparently these forecasts and CAP can only be updated once every 6 months (for the consumer) and even though the energy providers continue to milk consumers there's no way of getting that money back to those that paid it. Instead, some of that profit (not enough) goes as taxes to the government who then give part of it back in handouts making them look like they're doing everyone a favour. Note, I may be slightly incorrect here but in basic terms that's how it seems to me. so in theory, we should see a dramatic fall in prices in 6 months?
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Post by foster on Sept 21, 2022 10:00:35 GMT
Isn't it because energy companies use a forecast of what they think gas/oil is going to cost them (in the coming 6 months) to determine what the CAP is for the consumer. Therefore they've already vastly overestimated their costs and made billions off of the back of consumers who still continue to pay them extortionate amounts based on overinflated forecasts. Apparently these forecasts and CAP can only be updated once every 6 months (for the consumer) and even though the energy providers continue to milk consumers there's no way of getting that money back to those that paid it. Instead, some of that profit (not enough) goes as taxes to the government who then give part of it back in handouts making them look like they're doing everyone a favour. Note, I may be slightly incorrect here but in basic terms that's how it seems to me. so in theory, we should see a dramatic fall in prices in 6 months? If wholesales prices decrease then I would imagine so, but I doubt the energy companies or government want to this to happen.
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Post by iancransonsknees on Sept 21, 2022 10:10:29 GMT
I've reached the conclusion that it's a manufactured ploy to force households to use less energy and to consequently reduce the carbon output of each property.
Looking at indices of deprivation, fuel poverty and energy performance the stated motive driving these is improving energy performance. If this can't be done quick enough then hiking bills is a crude way of changing mindsets to do this. If the property becomes too energy efficient it reduces profit, hence to normalisation of massive energy costs.
The whole insulation rush is about reducing carbon output rather than making the property any cheaper to run or reducing fuel poverty or deprivation. In fact we're openly told not to state that any of this type of work will reduce fuel poverty as the price increases negate this impact of any energy efficiency work.
That might be too simple a view and a little conspiracy theorist but it's an easy conclusion to reach when you browse the academic data of the past 10 years and look at the SHDF priorities at the moment.
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Post by noustie on Sept 21, 2022 10:49:51 GMT
I've reached the conclusion that it's a manufactured ploy to force households to use less energy and to consequently reduce the carbon output of each property. Looking at indices of deprivation, fuel poverty and energy performance the stated motive driving these is improving energy performance. If this can't be done quick enough then hiking bills is a crude way of changing mindsets to do this. If the property becomes too energy efficient it reduces profit, hence to normalisation of massive energy costs. The whole insulation rush is about reducing carbon output rather than making the property any cheaper to run or reducing fuel poverty or deprivation. In fact we're openly told not to state that any of this type of work will reduce fuel poverty as the price increases negate this impact of any energy efficiency work. That might be too simple a view and a little conspiracy theorist but it's an easy conclusion to reach when you browse the academic data of the past 10 years and look at the SHDF priorities at the moment. Similarly I've been wondering if this is being used to get more arses back into the office to save landlords having massive office blocks in city centres no longer worth very much. Petrol coming down a bit but gas and electric continuing to sky rocket = get your arse back in the car and let your employer pay for the heating and leccy.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Sept 21, 2022 11:10:50 GMT
I've reached the conclusion that it's a manufactured ploy to force households to use less energy and to consequently reduce the carbon output of each property. Looking at indices of deprivation, fuel poverty and energy performance the stated motive driving these is improving energy performance. If this can't be done quick enough then hiking bills is a crude way of changing mindsets to do this. If the property becomes too energy efficient it reduces profit, hence to normalisation of massive energy costs. The whole insulation rush is about reducing carbon output rather than making the property any cheaper to run or reducing fuel poverty or deprivation. In fact we're openly told not to state that any of this type of work will reduce fuel poverty as the price increases negate this impact of any energy efficiency work. That might be too simple a view and a little conspiracy theorist but it's an easy conclusion to reach when you browse the academic data of the past 10 years and look at the SHDF priorities at the moment. Similarly I've been wondering if this is being used to get more arses back into the office to save landlords having massive office blocks in city centres no longer worth very much. Petrol coming down a bit but gas and electric continuing to sky rocket = get your arse back in the car and let your employer pay for the heating and leccy. The whole "get back to the office" thing does smack of a co-ordinated campaign by right-wing newspapers and the likes of government figures such as Rees-Mogg etc, so there is probably something in assuming that wealthy landlords with the ears of those in government are not happy about their property and rent portfolios declining in value. Encouraging commuting, however, goes against reducing carbon outputs through cutting the need to travel, so that contradicts the idea that energy price hikes are a deliberate attempt to get people to burn less fossil fuel. That'll no doubt happen as a consequence but I don't see it as something that was planned or a conspiracy. Rather like the financial crisis, I see another example of the consequence of unfettered, largely unregulated markets failing the ordinary man, again.
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