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Post by PotterLog on Jul 16, 2021 19:38:46 GMT
You're conveniently overlooking something staring you in the face. If, as you suggest it is a 50/50 split in terms of players, then football is clearly, massively in favour of employing black people, as at the last census amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British. EDIT: Apologies PotterLog, I see you've made the same point. Those figures don’t really matter when we look at those participating in football. Which is around 50/50 or so. There are more Indian managers of a Kabaddi team,because a majority of players are Indian. If there were a 50/50 split of Indian and white people playing Kabaddi, you would expect that there would be more white people going into management, also. You’re still completely missing, or ignoring, the point. Why is the racial imbalance in coaching a “damning indictment” of racism in the game, but the even greater racial imbalance in the (generally better-paid) jobs at playing level just a trivial detail about “the way it is” seemingly not even worth considering?
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:39:16 GMT
The game isn’t racist against white people? I think what you’re basically saying is that it’s ok for there to be an unequal ratio of black to white players in relation to population where 3 percent of the U.K. population are black yet 50 percent make up the players. Does that mean that the white kids aren’t being coached as well as the black kids? In the same respect the ratio of black people who are analysts are very high. Does that mean that people who could be great on TV don’t deserve the chance because theyve never played to a high level? Stupid arguments on my part. I guess what i’m trying to say is you’ll never have a perfect balance. That’s a good point,but I guess we would need to dig deep into the many factors/ aspects of sports science,sociology and sports participation in general. Maybe more white people are playing different sports, such as rugby, cricket or tennis? Is it physiological? You have opened a can of worms there, my friend. A great point, mind!
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Post by followyoudown on Jul 16, 2021 19:45:47 GMT
Black managers is the wrong metric, how many league clubs give first time managers a job ? A manager lasts on average 18 months so fail in your first job and you most likely dont get a second chance, Chris Houghton for instance will walk into another championship job if it goes tits up at Forest because of his past record, Nathan Jones would find it much more of a struggle if Luton ever sack him. Coaching and Academy staff would be a much better measure and from what I see there is defintely under representation, how much of that is lack of opportunities and how much is in some cases millionaires not wanting a job at £40k a year I don't know, Ashley Cole has gone down that route at Chelsea and I'd be surprised if he is not a manager at championship level at least within 3 or 4 years if he wants to be. I would suggest neither Jones or Hughton would struggle to get a job, if fired from their current clubs. I would imagine Hughton would get a club in a higher league than Jones, based on experience of his success at a higher level. I would also moot, that there are probably a similar amount of ex players, (white and black) that don’t want to go into management, also. Thus, there maybe an equal division who want to go into management. However, by that rationale, many of those ex black players may want to go into management, but don’t apply, because that route seems to be populated and be more successful than those who are not of colour. That is all largely correct my point / question is still how many jobs goto first time managers, in last few years I can think of Lampard, Gerrard and Rooney getting jobs at championship and above, we have done it once with Mick Mills, Crewe do it quite regularly but its usually their own ex-players or coaches, is that racism or just the fact that probably less than 5 league clubs a season give the job to a first timer.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:46:05 GMT
Those figures don’t really matter when we look at those participating in football. Which is around 50/50 or so. There are more Indian managers of a Kabaddi team,because a majority of players are Indian. If there were a 50/50 split of Indian and white people playing Kabaddi, you would expect that there would be more white people going into management, also. Of course they matter ... you're seeing only what you want to see. If football Chairman and football CEO'S were inherently racist, then they wouldn't employ a MASSIVELY disproportionate number of black footballers to white footballers, based on the make-up of our society, would they? They just want to win. Most Chairman would sell their Granny for a season of glory, they couldn't give a stuff if their staff were green and pink and had just landed from Mars if they could provide them with success, be that players, coaches or managers. I’m not seeing what I only want to see, mate. A chairman approves a purchase of a player, because they think they will do well for the team, that’s a given. There isn’t a problem with black people being able to participate and succeed in football in this country.as a player. Unlike a game like tennis. In tennis, you have to have the money to pay a annual fee and to be able to play and practice at a private club. In football, the path has less barriers. To manage in football, I would suggest that path is less clear, for many reasons . The proof is in the pudding.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:51:20 GMT
Those figures don’t really matter when we look at those participating in football. Which is around 50/50 or so. There are more Indian managers of a Kabaddi team,because a majority of players are Indian. If there were a 50/50 split of Indian and white people playing Kabaddi, you would expect that there would be more white people going into management, also. You’re still completely missing, or ignoring, the point. Why is the racial imbalance in coaching a “damning indictment” of racism in the game, but the even greater racial imbalance in the (generally better-paid) jobs at playing level just a trivial detail about “the way it is” seemingly not even worth considering? First of all, stop using quotes and inverted commas for things I haven’t said. I would suggest it’s an institutional racism that goes on. It’s not blatant, amd maybe not even conscious. It’s the fact that many ex black players are simply not getting the opportunity, which as a result, involves less black players to even try or involve themselves in their prospective management career. They simply aren’t getting the chance .
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2021 19:52:14 GMT
Of course they matter ... you're seeing only what you want to see. If football Chairman and football CEO'S were inherently racist, then they wouldn't employ a MASSIVELY disproportionate number of black footballers to white footballers, based on the make-up of our society, would they? They just want to win. Most Chairman would sell their Granny for a season of glory, they couldn't give a stuff if their staff were green and pink and had just landed from Mars if they could provide them with success, be that players, coaches or managers. I’m not seeing what I only want to see, mate. A chairman approves a purchase of a player, because they think they will do well for the team, that’s a given.There isn’t a problem with black people being able to participate and succeed in football in this country.as a player. Unlike a game like tennis. In tennis, you have to have the money to pay a annual fee and to be able to play and practice at a private club. In football, the path has less barriers. To manage in football, I would suggest that path is less clear, for many reasons . The proof is in the pudding. Exactly. And it seems, this is the point you're not getting ... if a Chairman is not going to be racist in his appointment of his players, he's not then suddenly going to turn into a racist when it comes to choosing his other employees is he? It's illogical and absurd to suggest as much.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:52:52 GMT
I would suggest neither Jones or Hughton would struggle to get a job, if fired from their current clubs. I would imagine Hughton would get a club in a higher league than Jones, based on experience of his success at a higher level. I would also moot, that there are probably a similar amount of ex players, (white and black) that don’t want to go into management, also. Thus, there maybe an equal division who want to go into management. However, by that rationale, many of those ex black players may want to go into management, but don’t apply, because that route seems to be populated and be more successful than those who are not of colour. That is all largely correct my point / question is still how many jobs goto first time managers, in last few years I can think of Lampard, Gerrard and Rooney getting jobs at championship and above, we have done it once with Mick Mills, Crewe do it quite regularly but its usually their own ex-players or coaches, is that racism or just the fact that probably less than 5 league clubs a season give the job to a first timer. All white. How many ex players have played for us and either gone into management or given that “first time” opportunity?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 19:52:55 GMT
Of course they matter ... you're seeing only what you want to see. If football Chairman and football CEO'S were inherently racist, then they wouldn't employ a MASSIVELY disproportionate number of black footballers to white footballers, based on the make-up of our society, would they? They just want to win. Most Chairman would sell their Granny for a season of glory, they couldn't give a stuff if their staff were green and pink and had just landed from Mars if they could provide them with success, be that players, coaches or managers. I’m not seeing what I only want to see, mate. A chairman approves a purchase of a player, because they think they will do well for the team, that’s a given. There isn’t a problem with black people being able to participate and succeed in football in this country.as a player. Unlike a game like tennis. In tennis, you have to have the money to pay a annual fee and to be able to play and practice at a private club. In football, the path has less barriers. To manage in football, I would suggest that path is less clear, for many reasons . The proof is in the pudding. There's only 92 jobs in league football, assuming managers are aged between 35 to 60 how many ex players are in that age bracket and how many of those are black and how many are white? If in 20 years time there are the same number of black managers then questions should be asked but not right now. You can say black ex pros aren't being given opportunities but there's more white ex pros who aren't either because the jobs are not there.
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Post by zerps on Jul 16, 2021 19:54:46 GMT
The sooner we stop over comparing everything and accept certain things the better.
Actual racism is abhorrent. A higher proportion of white people doing such and such isn’t racist. It’s just how it is.
You don’t see many black santa clauses, that’s not racism.
You don’t see many white 15,000 metre runners. That’s not racism.
The way the cookie crumbles isn’t racism.
Someone should call me a racist now.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:55:12 GMT
I’m not seeing what I only want to see, mate. A chairman approves a purchase of a player, because they think they will do well for the team, that’s a given.There isn’t a problem with black people being able to participate and succeed in football in this country.as a player. Unlike a game like tennis. In tennis, you have to have the money to pay a annual fee and to be able to play and practice at a private club. In football, the path has less barriers. To manage in football, I would suggest that path is less clear, for many reasons . The proof is in the pudding. Exactly. And it seems, this is the point you're not getting ... if a Chairman is not going to be racist in his appointment of his players, he's not then suddenly going to turn into a racist when it comes to choosing his other employees is he? It's illogical and absurd to suggest as much. I’m not saying they are all racist. It’s institutional . Which means many won’t even apply or go down that road because there simply isn’t any opportunity, or can read the writing on the wall when seeing the success rate of those of colour.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 16, 2021 19:57:29 GMT
You’re still completely missing, or ignoring, the point. Why is the racial imbalance in coaching a “damning indictment” of racism in the game, but the even greater racial imbalance in the (generally better-paid) jobs at playing level just a trivial detail about “the way it is” seemingly not even worth considering? First of all, stop using quotes and inverted commas for things I haven’t said. It’s the very first thing you said, almost word for word, and the only reason I responded. Unless you’re unhappy I changed the word screaming for damning? Fair enough if that’s not what you’re saying - but it is what you said.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:58:06 GMT
The sooner we stop over comparing everything and accept certain things the better. Actual racism is abhorrent. A higher proportion of white people doing such and such isn’t racist. It’s just how it is. You don’t see many black santa clauses, that’s not racism. You don’t see many white 15,000 metre runners. That’s not racism. The way the cookie crumbles isn’t racism. Someone should call me a racist now. The subject of underrepresentation of black people in football, is a little more complex than the anology’s you have given, mate.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:58:45 GMT
First of all, stop using quotes and inverted commas for things I haven’t said. It’s the very first thing you said, almost word for word, and the only reason I responded. Unless you’re unhappy I changed the word screaming for damning? Fair enough if that’s not what you’re saying - but it is what you said. It’s not, but don’t worry about it. It’s all good my friend.
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Post by zerps on Jul 16, 2021 20:00:19 GMT
The sooner we stop over comparing everything and accept certain things the better. Actual racism is abhorrent. A higher proportion of white people doing such and such isn’t racist. It’s just how it is. You don’t see many black santa clauses, that’s not racism. You don’t see many white 15,000 metre runners. That’s not racism. The way the cookie crumbles isn’t racism. Someone should call me a racist now. The subject of underrepresentation of black people in football, is a little more complex of the anology’s you have given, mate. In football? Black players are fantastically represented in the English game. Where are all the Chinese players?
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 20:04:41 GMT
The subject of underrepresentation of black people in football, is a little more complex of the anology’s you have given, mate. In football? Black players are fantastically represented in the English game. Where are all the Chinese players? Not at management level. You are right, though. We need more Chinese players!
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 16, 2021 20:05:04 GMT
It’s the very first thing you said, almost word for word, and the only reason I responded. Unless you’re unhappy I changed the word screaming for damning? Fair enough if that’s not what you’re saying - but it is what you said. It’s not, but don’t worry about it. It’s all good my friend. You’re right 😂 I’m sorry, I did misread it. I’ll leave the points there for the record, they still stand but I would have phrased them differently if I’d read your first comment properly 😬
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2021 20:05:55 GMT
Exactly. And it seems, this is the point you're not getting ... if a Chairman is not going to be racist in his appointment of his players, he's not then suddenly going to turn into a racist when it comes to choosing his other employees is he? It's illogical and absurd to suggest as much. I’m not saying they are all racist. It’s institutional . Which means many won’t even apply or go down that road because there simply isn’t any opportunity, or can read the writing on the wall when seeing the success rate of those of colour. What you're saying is illogical. If there is institutional racism at Chairman level in football, then there wouldn't be so many black players in the game, would there? Chairmen will always (as you've correctly said) employ the player (regardless of race) that he/she thinks will bring them the most success, to then suggest that they turn into racists when it comes to employing other members of their staff is utterly ridiculous.
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Post by zerps on Jul 16, 2021 20:06:54 GMT
In football? Black players are fantastically represented in the English game. Where are all the Chinese players? Not at management level. You are right, though. We need more Chinese players! Where does it end. We need more Danish kit men? Pakistani physios?
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 20:07:15 GMT
I’m not seeing what I only want to see, mate. A chairman approves a purchase of a player, because they think they will do well for the team, that’s a given. There isn’t a problem with black people being able to participate and succeed in football in this country.as a player. Unlike a game like tennis. In tennis, you have to have the money to pay a annual fee and to be able to play and practice at a private club. In football, the path has less barriers. To manage in football, I would suggest that path is less clear, for many reasons . The proof is in the pudding. There's only 92 jobs in league football, assuming managers are aged between 35 to 60 how many ex players are in that age bracket and how many of those are black and how many are white? If in 20 years time there are the same number of black managers then questions should be asked but not right now. You can say black ex pros aren't being given opportunities but there's more white ex pros who aren't either because the jobs are not there. I’m not sure about that. I think the 50/50 ratio has been like that for the last 15 years or so?
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Post by followyoudown on Jul 16, 2021 20:07:48 GMT
That is all largely correct my point / question is still how many jobs goto first time managers, in last few years I can think of Lampard, Gerrard and Rooney getting jobs at championship and above, we have done it once with Mick Mills, Crewe do it quite regularly but its usually their own ex-players or coaches, is that racism or just the fact that probably less than 5 league clubs a season give the job to a first timer. All white. How many ex players have played for us and either gone into management or given that “first time” opportunity? All ex-England captains or what people would consider legends of the games rather than being white just as Vierra getting the Palace job because of his status in the game rather than previous jobs he has done. Fox, Blake, Kamara, Pulis Jnr, Kavaganah I'm sure there is more how many got more than 1 shot at management ?
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 20:08:59 GMT
Not at management level. You are right, though. We need more Chinese players! Where does it end. We need more Danish kit men? Pakistani physios? I’m all for it! Apart from this weird woman pundit thing . That shit was agreed at the beginning of last season between all the networks in a darkened room some where.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 20:11:13 GMT
All white. How many ex players have played for us and either gone into management or given that “first time” opportunity? All ex-England captains or what people would consider legends of the games rather than being white just as Vierra getting the Palace job because of his status in the game rather than previous jobs he has done. Fox, Blake, Kamara, Pulis Jnr, Kavaganah I'm sure there is more how many got more than 1 shot at management ? Good question! Not many. How many black managers are there in the football league at present?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 20:12:42 GMT
Not at management level. You are right, though. We need more Chinese players! Where does it end. We need more Danish kit men? Pakistani physios? We need more non-binary managers
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Post by zerps on Jul 16, 2021 20:13:26 GMT
Where does it end. We need more Danish kit men? Pakistani physios? We need more non-binary managers A-sexual Inuit tea ladies are underrepresented
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 16, 2021 20:14:48 GMT
Not at management level. You are right, though. We need more Chinese players! Where does it end. We need more Danish kit men? Pakistani physios? There will be no white players left in the game at this rate
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 20:16:36 GMT
I’m not saying they are all racist. It’s institutional . Which means many won’t even apply or go down that road because there simply isn’t any opportunity, or can read the writing on the wall when seeing the success rate of those of colour. What you're saying is illogical. If there is institutional racism at Chairman level in football, then there wouldn't be so many black players in the game, would there? Chairmen will always (as you've correctly said) employ the player (regardless of race) that he/she thinks will bring them the most success, to then suggest that they turn into racists when it comes to employing other members of their staff is utterly ridiculous. I’m not saying the chairman’s are racist. I’m saying that black players aren’t given the opportunity, which is supported by the cold hard fact that black people are under represented at management level.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 20:18:29 GMT
What you're saying is illogical. If there is institutional racism at Chairman level in football, then there wouldn't be so many black players in the game, would there? Chairmen will always (as you've correctly said) employ the player (regardless of race) that he/she thinks will bring them the most success, to then suggest that they turn into racists when it comes to employing other members of their staff is utterly ridiculous. I’m not saying the chairman’s are racist. I’m saying that black players aren’t given the opportunity, which is supported by the cold hard fact that black people are under represented at management level. they are not under represented
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Post by 1982stokie on Jul 16, 2021 20:18:49 GMT
I myself in the past was not comfortable with the taking the knee ( I didn’t agree with booing) symbol, simply because in the beginning media went out of their way to link taking the knee with BLM, it was only as time went on the tried to distance them selves from it. I am at a point now where that argument seems irrelevant, if that’s how the want to make a stand then so be, I still believe it’s very hard to tackle or even to begin making a difference, and to be honest the kind of arsehole how is likely to shout this crap probably aren’t the kind of people you want to confront, We also need to look at the way the media is causing problems and controlling the narrative, not sure if you have seen my comment on the England Italy thread how the BBC cut parts of Jadon Sanchos tweet out, the part about the number of messages full of love and support far out weighed the negative, now more than ever all people of all races should come together to fight this together, instead there are powers who are actively trying to create a bigger divide and until we can stop that we won’t get anywhere The BBC have Sancho’s statement on their website including the part you allude to above. If I were looking for any “powers that are seeking to divide society I would have extreme right wing groups, white supremacists, unfriendly foreign powers and political parties seeking to exploit “populist” agendas for short term gain way ahead of the BBC. They may well show it on their Website you have to actually go and look for it a lot of people won’t, also I am pretty sure they couldn’t alter his tweet to put it on the website, I was referring to them reading his tweet on the news they appeared to ignore what I feel was a very important part, on the same news report they talked to a few young black children about their feelings and fears, it was very sad to hear what they said, I think it’s important to let these youngsters know whilst there certainly are Racist people and even Racist that will publicly make these remarks, they are a minority compared to the decent people in our country that do not share these views, by not doing so adds to the alienation they feel and in that respect they are part of the problem,
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 20:27:07 GMT
I’m not saying the chairman’s are racist. I’m saying that black players aren’t given the opportunity, which is supported by the cold hard fact that black people are under represented at management level. they are not under represented How many black managers are there in the football leagues?
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 20:30:15 GMT
We need more non-binary managers A-sexual Inuit tea ladies are underrepresented Come on Zerps. This isn’t a woke thing.
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