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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2021 20:32:55 GMT
What you're saying is illogical. If there is institutional racism at Chairman level in football, then there wouldn't be so many black players in the game, would there? Chairmen will always (as you've correctly said) employ the player (regardless of race) that he/she thinks will bring them the most success, to then suggest that they turn into racists when it comes to employing other members of their staff is utterly ridiculous. I’m not saying the chairman’s are racist. I’m saying that black players aren’t given the opportunity, which is supported by the cold hard fact that black people are under represented at management level. Well it's the Chairman who decide if they get the opportunity in management isn't it? So by implication, that is what you're saying. And this my friend is an assumption on your part. How many ex black players actually want to become managers, how many of them apply to take their coaching badges? And please don't say they don't want to because they know they won't get the job. That is just utterly illogical when so many black players have already been employed by football clubs previously. As a black man, if you've already been employed by a football chairman, you're not going to think well there's a pretty good chance I won't get employed next time because of the colour of my skin. It makes zero sense, doesn't it? I don't know why there are so few black football managers but I'm sure as hell not going to leap to the conclusion that it's due to institutional racism in football because that makes no sense whatsoever given the relevant data.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 20:34:58 GMT
I’m not saying the chairman’s are racist. I’m saying that black players aren’t given the opportunity, which is supported by the cold hard fact that black people are under represented at management level. Well it's the Chairman who decide if they get the opportunity in management isn't it? So by implication, that is what you're saying. And this my friend is an assumption on your part. How many ex black players actually want to become managers, how many of them apply to take their coaching badges? And please don't say they don't want to because they know they won't get the job. That is just utterly illogical when so many black players have already been employed by football clubs previously. As a black man, if you've already been employed by a football chairman, you're not going to think well there's a pretty good chance I won't get employed next time because of the colour of my skin. It makes zero sense, doesn't it? I don't know why there are so few black football managers but I'm sure as hell not going to leap to the conclusion that it's due to institutional racism in football because that makes no sense whatsoever given the relevant data. By that rational , considering we agree on the 50/50 split at professional playing level, you reckon there are less black managers because they simply don’t fancy it?
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Post by gawa on Jul 16, 2021 20:35:05 GMT
You're conveniently overlooking something staring you in the face. If, as you suggest it is a 50/50 split in terms of players, then football is clearly, massively in favour of employing black people, as at the last census amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British. EDIT: Apologies PotterLog, I see you've made the same point. You made it much less glibly than I did 😅 I think what skews alot of the results for present day footballers is that a large majority of them are foreign international players signed by clubs. In a similar way to how the % of Philippine nurses doesn't reflect the % of Philippine residents in England. In addition the last census was in 2011 and the percentage of white British have been going down over the last few decades while BAME has been rising, so I imagine the data is quite outdated and not a fair reflection of the ethnic diversity today. I believe in 17/18 that 33% of premier league footballers were BAME. And I don't think this is a great deal off the percentage of BAME today. When you also consider the foreign internationals which move to UK to play PL football, I really don't think this is far off. I think when you look outside the top divisions in the UK which attract foreign footballers then there is a very large white majority of footballers. You don't even see 5% of the players in Wales, Scotland and NI being BAME. I guess in a way your statement does raise a good point but to suggest whites are under represented is bizarre. Black's are probably slightly over represented based on a number of things such as those stated above, while Asians on the other hand are heavily under represented and that's where there is a real issue... Not white representation. I guess you could come back and argue that alot of Asian people play other sports such as Cricket which has an influence. However couldn't the same critical thinking then be applied in regards to alot of white people playing other sports such as Cricket, rugby, tennis, golf etc.. too? I think alot of us sometimes look at these things through our own eyes and don't realise at times that we're slightly bias to our own race because we see things from that perspective (and this goes for all races). To truly understand these issues we need to try harder to be less subjective and more empathetic.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 20:36:19 GMT
By that rational , considering we agree on the 50/50 split at professional playing level, you reckon there are less black managers because they simply don’t fancy it?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2021 20:40:19 GMT
By that rational , considering we agree on the 50/50 split at professional playing level, you reckon there are less black managers because they simply don’t fancy it? I literally just said that I didn't know why but I'm pretty damn sure it has nothing to with institutional racism in football, when you consider that a disproportionate number of black footballers (to white footballers) are employed in the game. It's clear we need to look elsewhere for the reason(s).
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 20:51:06 GMT
You made it much less glibly than I did 😅 I think what skews alot of the results for present day footballers is that a large majority of them are foreign international players signed by clubs. In a similar way to how the % of Philippine nurses doesn't reflect the % of Philippine residents in England. In addition the last census was in 2011 and the percentage of white British have been going down over the last few decades while BAME has been rising, so I imagine the data is quite outdated and not a fair reflection of the ethnic diversity today. I believe in 17/18 that 33% of premier league footballers were BAME. And I don't think this is a great deal off the percentage of BAME today. When you also consider the foreign internationals which move to UK to play PL football, I really don't think this is far off. I think when you look outside the top divisions in the UK which attract foreign footballers then there is a very large white majority of footballers. You don't even see 5% of the players in Wales, Scotland and NI being BAME. I guess in a way your statement does raise a good point but to suggest whites are under represented is bizarre. Black's are probably slightly over represented based on a number of things such as those stated above, while Asians on the other hand are heavily under represented and that's where there is a real issue... Not white representation. I guess you could come back and argue that alot of Asian people play other sports such as Cricket which has an influence. However couldn't the same critical thinking then be applied in regards to alot of white people playing other sports such as Cricket, rugby, tennis, golf etc.. too? I think alot of us sometimes look at these things through our own eyes and don't realise at times that we're slightly bias to our own race because we see things from that perspective (and this goes for all races). To truly understand these issues we need to try harder to be less subjective and more empathetic. I’m not sure that is true. Maybe in the Premier League, where there are a lot of foreign players. However, many of those are black, and don’t go into management. The same with the rest of the English football leagues. I think the percentage of the BAME population in the UK is a red herring. The fact remains, across the leagues, I would say there is a fairly even representation of white and black professional footballers, probably for the last 15 years or so, but only a handful of black people end up managing. I don’t think white people are under represented. I think involving more minorities in football is a great point , mind.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 20:53:05 GMT
By that rational , considering we agree on the 50/50 split at professional playing level, you reckon there are less black managers because they simply don’t fancy it? I literally just said that I didn't know why but I'm pretty damn sure it has nothing to with institutional racism in football, when you consider that a disproportionate number of black footballers (to white footballers) are employed in the game. It's clear we need to look elsewhere for the reason(s). I agree on your last point. However, “white flight” does exist at management level in football. We may disagree on the reasons, but it’s a stone cold fact that ex black players are underrepresented at management level.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jul 16, 2021 20:54:03 GMT
I’m not saying the chairman’s are racist. I’m saying that black players aren’t given the opportunity, which is supported by the cold hard fact that black people are under represented at management level. Well it's the Chairman who decide if they get the opportunity in management isn't it? So by implication, that is what you're saying. And this my friend is an assumption on your part. How many ex black players actually want to become managers, how many of them apply to take their coaching badges? And please don't say they don't want to because they know they won't get the job. That is just utterly illogical when so many black players have already been employed by football clubs previously. As a black man, if you've already been employed by a football chairman, you're not going to think well there's a pretty good chance I won't get employed next time because of the colour of my skin. It makes zero sense, doesn't it? I don't know why there are so few black football managers but I'm sure as hell not going to leap to the conclusion that it's due to institutional racism in football because that makes no sense whatsoever given the relevant data. I genuinely don't know how big a problem it is but there are plenty of black footballers who have got the relevant coaching qualifications but have struggled to find a way into the game after their playing days. When ex players have discussed this subject, there have been plenty of comments whereby they've felt it almost impossible to get a foothold in the game from a coaching/management perspective. I would hope that it simply down to numbers (or lack of them) rather than anything more sinister and that in every case going, chairman make decisions on who they feel is the best candidate irrespective of skin colour. Would the likes of Patrick Viera, Ian Wright, Sol Campbell etc. get the same opportunities that Gerrard, Lampard and Keane have had for instance? It appears not at face value doesn't it. It just seems at face value that black players have to work so much harder to get the same opportunities that their white contemporaries get.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 20:57:17 GMT
I’m not saying the chairman’s are racist. I’m saying that black players aren’t given the opportunity, which is supported by the cold hard fact that black people are under represented at management level. Well it's the Chairman who decide if they get the opportunity in management isn't it? So by implication, that is what you're saying. And this my friend is an assumption on your part. How many ex black players actually want to become managers, how many of them apply to take their coaching badges? And please don't say they don't want to because they know they won't get the job. That is just utterly illogical when so many black players have already been employed by football clubs previously. As a black man, if you've already been employed by a football chairman, you're not going to think well there's a pretty good chance I won't get employed next time because of the colour of my skin. It makes zero sense, doesn't it? I don't know why there are so few black football managers but I'm sure as hell not going to leap to the conclusion that it's due to institutional racism in football because that makes no sense whatsoever given the relevant data. The relevant data suggests that there is a lack of ex black players who are given the opportunity to manage in professional football. Like it or not. I would also suggest there are many who don’t even start that journey because there are so few who are even given the chance. I beg to differ.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 16, 2021 20:57:24 GMT
By that rational , considering we agree on the 50/50 split at professional playing level, you reckon there are less black managers because they simply don’t fancy it? That’s a good point,but I guess we would need to dig deep into the many factors/ aspects of sports science,sociology and sports participation in general. You have opened a can of worms there, my friend. A great point, mind!
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2021 20:57:51 GMT
I literally just said that I didn't know why but I'm pretty damn sure it has nothing to with institutional racism in football, when you consider that a disproportionate number of black footballers (to white footballers) are employed in the game. It's clear we need to look elsewhere for the reason(s). I agree on your last point.However, “white flight” does exist at management level in football. We may disagree on the reasons, but it’s a stone cold fact that ex black players are underrepresented at management level. I'm not following you, you have just said that you agree we need to look elsewhere for the reason(s) (it's not due to racism) but then you end by saying, "we may disagree on the reasons."
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 21:03:22 GMT
I agree on your last point.However, “white flight” does exist at management level in football. We may disagree on the reasons, but it’s a stone cold fact that ex black players are underrepresented at management level. I'm not following you, you have just said that you agree we need to look elsewhere for the reason(s) (it's not due to racism) but then you end by saying, "we may disagree on the reasons." Absolutely. I welcome the debate, I’m open to listening to the many other arguments and reasons why the under representation may occur. I have read into “white flight” in sports, but I’m no specialist. I love listening and debating yours, and other posters views on the subject. My opinion isn’t concrete, and understand the complexity of the subject.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2021 21:04:27 GMT
Well it's the Chairman who decide if they get the opportunity in management isn't it? So by implication, that is what you're saying. And this my friend is an assumption on your part. How many ex black players actually want to become managers, how many of them apply to take their coaching badges? And please don't say they don't want to because they know they won't get the job. That is just utterly illogical when so many black players have already been employed by football clubs previously. As a black man, if you've already been employed by a football chairman, you're not going to think well there's a pretty good chance I won't get employed next time because of the colour of my skin. It makes zero sense, doesn't it? I don't know why there are so few black football managers but I'm sure as hell not going to leap to the conclusion that it's due to institutional racism in football because that makes no sense whatsoever given the relevant data. The relevant data suggests that there is a lack of ex black players who are given the opportunity to manage in professional football. Like it or not. I would also suggest there are many who don’t even start that journey because there are so few who are even given the chance. I beg to differ. This is why I suggested earlier that you are only seeing what you want to see. You have decided that the lack of black football managers is due to institutional racism within the game and you are now working backwards from that point in a blinkered attempt to create a narrative that justifies that position. And in order to get there you have to completely (and conveniently) brush under the carpet the actual r e l e v a n t d a t a that demonstrates that a massive number of black men have already and continue to be employed in football.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 21:09:24 GMT
The relevant data suggests that there is a lack of ex black players who are given the opportunity to manage in professional football. Like it or not. I would also suggest there are many who don’t even start that journey because there are so few who are even given the chance. I beg to differ. This is why I suggested earlier that you are only seeing what you want to see. You have decided that the lack of black football managers is due to institutional racism within the game and you are now working backwards from that point in a blinkered attempt to create a narrative that justifies that position. And in order to get there you have to completely (and conveniently) brush under the carpet the actual r e l e v a n t d a t a that demonstrates that a massive number of black men have already and continue to be employed in football. I’m really not. First of all, my point is that black people are under represented in football management. Not “black people in football” Management. No goal posts being changed on my behalf ? And yes, I believe it’s down to institutional racism. Conscious or un conscious. No blinkers here, or back peddling. However, I’m open to other opinions.
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Post by gawa on Jul 16, 2021 21:10:56 GMT
I think what skews alot of the results for present day footballers is that a large majority of them are foreign international players signed by clubs. In a similar way to how the % of Philippine nurses doesn't reflect the % of Philippine residents in England. In addition the last census was in 2011 and the percentage of white British have been going down over the last few decades while BAME has been rising, so I imagine the data is quite outdated and not a fair reflection of the ethnic diversity today. I believe in 17/18 that 33% of premier league footballers were BAME. And I don't think this is a great deal off the percentage of BAME today. When you also consider the foreign internationals which move to UK to play PL football, I really don't think this is far off. I think when you look outside the top divisions in the UK which attract foreign footballers then there is a very large white majority of footballers. You don't even see 5% of the players in Wales, Scotland and NI being BAME. I guess in a way your statement does raise a good point but to suggest whites are under represented is bizarre. Black's are probably slightly over represented based on a number of things such as those stated above, while Asians on the other hand are heavily under represented and that's where there is a real issue... Not white representation. I guess you could come back and argue that alot of Asian people play other sports such as Cricket which has an influence. However couldn't the same critical thinking then be applied in regards to alot of white people playing other sports such as Cricket, rugby, tennis, golf etc.. too? I think alot of us sometimes look at these things through our own eyes and don't realise at times that we're slightly bias to our own race because we see things from that perspective (and this goes for all races). To truly understand these issues we need to try harder to be less subjective and more empathetic. I’m not sure that is true. Maybe in the Premier League, where there are a lot of foreign players. However, many of those are black, and don’t go into management. The same with the rest of the English football leagues. I think the percentage of the BAME population in the UK is a red herring. The fact remains, across the leagues, I would say there is a fairly even representation of white and black professional footballers, probably for the last 15 years or so, but only a handful of black people end up managing. I don’t think white people are under represented. I think involving more minorities in football is a great point , mind. I was simply responding to an earlier members post were they were suggesting that whites are under represented in terms of playing staff. I do agree however that there is an under representation in terms of black football managers and I'm not trying to argue against this. Similarly though I will argue that there is a lag period between playing football and becoming a manager so to compare the percentage of black managers to the number of black people in the UK now is stupid. The biggest influence in becoming a football manager is footballing experience first and foremost. So really we should be looking at number of people with X amount of years experience in football rather than comparing it to the demographics of the whole nation. I do still think racism plays a part in terms of the number of black managers, I'm not denying that. But I also thing there are a number of other factors which influence it too, and the statistics presented at times can be misleading and not a true representation.
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Post by tcdobinghoff on Jul 16, 2021 21:21:08 GMT
The BBC have Sancho’s statement on their website including the part you allude to above. If I were looking for any “powers that are seeking to divide society I would have extreme right wing groups, white supremacists, unfriendly foreign powers and political parties seeking to exploit “populist” agendas for short term gain way ahead of the BBC. They may well show it on their Website you have to actually go and look for it a lot of people won’t, also I am pretty sure they couldn’t alter his tweet to put it on the website, I was referring to them reading his tweet on the news they appeared to ignore what I feel was a very important part, on the same news report they talked to a few young black children about their feelings and fears, it was very sad to hear what they said, I think it’s important to let these youngsters know whilst there certainly are Racist people and even Racist that will publicly make these remarks, they are a minority compared to the decent people in our country that do not share these views, by not doing so adds to the alienation they feel and in that respect they are part of the problem, You make a good point. I agree that the decent majority show that they do not support the actions of the racist minority and I think they have to be more vocal and visible in doing so. In your first post you seemed to be suggesting that the BBC were deliberately editing Sancho’s statement in order to create division. There are many people who want to create divisions I just don’t think the BBC would have such an agenda.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 21:24:20 GMT
I’m not sure that is true. Maybe in the Premier League, where there are a lot of foreign players. However, many of those are black, and don’t go into management. The same with the rest of the English football leagues. I think the percentage of the BAME population in the UK is a red herring. The fact remains, across the leagues, I would say there is a fairly even representation of white and black professional footballers, probably for the last 15 years or so, but only a handful of black people end up managing. I don’t think white people are under represented. I think involving more minorities in football is a great point , mind. I was simply responding to an earlier members post were they were suggesting that whites are under represented in terms of playing staff. I do agree however that there is an under representation in terms of black football managers and I'm not trying to argue against this. Similarly though I will argue that there is a lag period between playing football and becoming a manager so to compare the percentage of black managers to the number of black people in the UK now is stupid. The biggest influence in becoming a football manager is footballing experience first and foremost. So really we should be looking at number of people with X amount of years experience in football rather than comparing it to the demographics of the whole nation. I do still think racism plays a part in terms of the number of black managers, I'm not denying that. But I also thing there are a number of other factors which influence it too, and the statistics presented at times can be misleading and not a true representation. I agree with a huge proportion of that. However, a few anomaly’s with your argument. Jose Mourinho, Klopp, are a few examples where the years of experience go against the grain. Both managers, who weren’t elite players and probably had less experience of the usual pool of ex top class players, who made it at the top. Yet to see any lower league black players given that chance.(Tin hat on)
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Post by independent on Jul 16, 2021 21:25:17 GMT
I think Black footballers are employed because they happen to be good players. in other words on merit. Getting started in football management is notoriously difficult whether you are Black or White. Black managers who have been successful continue to be employed by different clubs. Keith Curle,Chris Hughton and others have had many clubs. But generally speaking Black managers haven't been tremendously successful. John Barnes springs to mind. Graham Potter had to go to Sweden or Norway to get a start and he is already with his 3rd club. Maybe that is a path that others could consider? No Chairman is going to refuse to employ a manager that he believes will be successful because of his skin colour. And anyone who believes that a Chairman or Board would do that is mistaken.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2021 21:25:30 GMT
This is why I suggested earlier that you are only seeing what you want to see. You have decided that the lack of black football managers is due to institutional racism within the game and you are now working backwards from that point in a blinkered attempt to create a narrative that justifies that position. And in order to get there you have to completely (and conveniently) brush under the carpet the actual r e l e v a n t d a t a that demonstrates that a massive number of black men have already and continue to be employed in football. I’m really not. First of all, my point is that black people are under represented in football management. Not “black people in football” Management. No goal posts being changed on my behalf ? And yes, I believe it’s down to institutional racism. Conscious or un conscious. No blinkers here, or back peddling. However, I’m open to other opinions. I haven't accused you of back peddling and haven't changed any goal posts on your behalf. In fact I'm accusing you of the exact opposite ... you have been completely consistent and unwavering in your claim that there are a disproportionate number of black managers in football due to racism. However whilst you make this claim, you ignore the (pretty damn important) fact (because it doesn't fit in with your narrative) that a massive number of black men are employed elsewhere in the game. If employers are racist, then why are they only racist when it comes to certain employees?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2021 21:29:36 GMT
I think Black footballers are employed because they happen to be good players. in other words on merit. Getting started in football management is notoriously difficult whether you are Black or White. Black managers who have been successful continue to be employed by different clubs. Keith Curle,Chris Hughton and others have had many clubs. But generally speaking Black managers haven't been tremendously successful. John Barnes springs to mind. Graham Potter had to go to Sweden or Norway to get a start and he is already with his 3rd club. Maybe that is a path that others could consider? No Chairman is going to refuse to employ a manager that he believes will be successful because of his skin colour. And anyone who believes that a Chairman or Board would do that is mistaken. Yep.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 21:30:19 GMT
I’m really not. First of all, my point is that black people are under represented in football management. Not “black people in football” Management. No goal posts being changed on my behalf ? And yes, I believe it’s down to institutional racism. Conscious or un conscious. No blinkers here, or back peddling. However, I’m open to other opinions. I haven't accused you of back peddling and haven't changed any goal posts on your behalf. In fact I'm accusing you of the exact opposite ... you have been completely consistent and unwavering in your claim that there are a disproportionate number of black managers in football due to racism. However whilst you make this claim, you ignore the (pretty damn important) fact (because it doesn't fit in with your narrative) that a massive number of black men are employed elsewhere in the game. If employers are racist, then why are they only racist when it comes to certain employees? Hmm. I think being accused of “working backwards “ off my point is very similar to “back peddling”, mate. But, I’m not interested in that kind of detail. I apologise if I misunderstood. Again, I’m talking about management, not who are still employed in the game, no matter the capacity.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2021 21:35:12 GMT
I haven't accused you of back peddling and haven't changed any goal posts on your behalf. In fact I'm accusing you of the exact opposite ... you have been completely consistent and unwavering in your claim that there are a disproportionate number of black managers in football due to racism. However whilst you make this claim, you ignore the (pretty damn important) fact (because it doesn't fit in with your narrative) that a massive number of black men are employed elsewhere in the game. If employers are racist, then why are they only racist when it comes to certain employees? Hmm. I think being accused of “working backwards “ off my point is very similar to “back peddling”, mate. But, I’m not interested in that kind of detail. I apologise if I misunderstood. Again, I’m talking about management, not who are still employed in the game, no matter the capacity.
Yes I know you're talking about management but the two are intrinsically linked ... why would an employer be racist in who he/she appoints for one role (managers) but not racist for the appointment of another employee (footballers)?
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 21:37:57 GMT
Hmm. I think being accused of “working backwards “ off my point is very similar to “back peddling”, mate. But, I’m not interested in that kind of detail. I apologise if I misunderstood. Again, I’m talking about management, not who are still employed in the game, no matter the capacity.
Yes I know you're talking about management but the two are intrinsically linked ... why would an employer be racist in who he/she appoints for one role (managers) but not racist for the appointment of another employee (footballers)? I guess the same reason why black people are employed in a corporation but aren’t made a CEO.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 21:38:22 GMT
Whatever those many complex reasons are.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 16, 2021 21:40:58 GMT
Whatever those many complex reasons are. ?? Haven’t you spent most of this thread asserting that the reason is very simple?
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 21:42:12 GMT
Whatever those many complex reasons are. ?? Haven’t you spent most of this thread asserting that the reason is very simple? Nope, not at any point. It’s an incredibly complex issue.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2021 21:42:43 GMT
Yes I know you're talking about management but the two are intrinsically linked ... why would an employer be racist in who he/she appoints for one role (managers) but not racist for the appointment of another employee (footballers)? I guess the same reason why black people are employed in a corporation but aren’t made a CEO. It's not the same thing at all. A racist chairman of a corporation can probably 'afford' to get away with being racist with who he employees because he has a massive pool of potential candidates who can do a half decent job at the role. Finding a half decent football manager is like discovering the holy grail for most football chairman today. If Patrick Vierra does well at Palace, do you think Arsenal are going to ignore him as a potential candidate to manage Arsenal solely because he's black? It's nonsensical.
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Post by independent on Jul 16, 2021 21:42:59 GMT
It would be interesting to see a survey of how present day managers began their careers in management. If you stuck to the 92 at present employed in the leagues and add either Conference Managers or all Managers sacked in the last 2/3 years you would still have a very manageable number for some University student to do a Thesis on. Surely BLM could financially incentivise someone to undertake this work. Then we might have some factual data to draw some conclusions from. Personally, I think every Chairman bases his employment choices on what he thinks is best for his own club and doesn't consider whether or not he is helping diversity in Sport.
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Post by independent on Jul 16, 2021 21:53:09 GMT
When you consider the number of managers like Curbishley,Pardue,Lambert,Big Sam,Lampard,Roberto Di Matteo,etc. etc. who have shown that they can manage a club but are still unemployed as managers it makes you think. i wonder how many unemployed ex managers there are out there. After all every job that becomes available seems to have a list of applicants.
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Post by mickeythemaestro on Jul 16, 2021 22:15:05 GMT
I have to say the level of decorum and critical thought that is being displayed in discussing this obviously complex issue is very refreshing. A few sparring matches yes but healthy debate all the same.
It actually gives me hope going forward that as a society we will make a success of this problem. I also believe the next couple of generations will speed up the progress that has undoubtedly been made already over the last 40 years. Positivity.
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