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Post by salfordstokie on Jul 16, 2021 17:59:56 GMT
I think that's quite a narrow way to judge football fans if I'm honest. For instance I had a state school education and I'm able to see taking the knee for what it really is. And even if people dont know about its Marxist background, they will view it as a divisive gesture. I also know black lads who hate the taking of the knee, as they dont view it as being helpful in tackling racism. They, and many others, can see its not about fighting inequality and more about sowing resentment and division. I mean, you say "see for what it really is", but obviously that is up for debate. As I've argued earlier on this thread, a lot of resentment and division from both sides is primarily drummed up by mainstream media. Kaepernick took the knee to highlight black violence and what did the media turn it largely into? A war on him. No matter what symbol someone comes with, no matter how organically it may be produced, the left wing media will always say "oh my hero" while the right will claim "marxism", "radical" and find some way to tie it to whichever divisive movement is a hot topic that week. A black and white view is needed for a debate, both in color of skin and difference of opinion, but the average person doesn't want to read a balanced debate anymore. I personally think its ridiculous to boo a player's action when that action is (more likely than not) not being done to support a marxist vendetta against the very capitalism that has put such wealth in their pockets, but because they believe that black people shouldn't be dying as often as they are. Everything about society is race filled. In the US, a black female is up to FOUR times more likely to die during pregnancy/childbirth than a similarly aged white woman! That is just one statistic that I find insane. There are so, so many more. The Daily Mirror et al., are more than happy to run articles that start "The Black Lives Matter's Take The Knee...." because A) it riles people up, distracting them from the real world problems B) its much easier than actually giving a shit about the huge discrepancies in the quality of life between whites and blacks around the world. In summary, I believe that no matter what gesture comes up, media will always find it "divisive" because its sells more to attack the gesture than it does to accept it. Over time its impossible to feel that that gesture is not divisive. To be honest mate, you make some points which Id definitely agree with. There are inequalities in society that are shocking, yet I feel that too many people are being manipulated by the media (on both left and right) into feeling that they have to 'take a side' when it comes to taking the knee. Like you allude to, there is of course polar opposite opinions on this subject, but I feel that everytime someone (who clearly is not a racist) makes an argument that is nuanced but not supportive of taking the knee, they are attacked. Id sooner put more weight behind Kick It Out, which had until recently been the driving force in the anti-racism movement in football. I just think its been hijacked by BLM, which has done more harm than good. Can you imagine, for example, if a white footballer decided NOT to take the knee becuase they disagreed with BLMs political agenda? They would be vilified and their teammates would probably turn against them. However, a few black players have decided to stop taking the knee and the reaction has been very different. That is what I mean by division.
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Post by meltonjohn on Jul 16, 2021 18:13:18 GMT
I mean, you say "see for what it really is", but obviously that is up for debate. As I've argued earlier on this thread, a lot of resentment and division from both sides is primarily drummed up by mainstream media. Kaepernick took the knee to highlight black violence and what did the media turn it largely into? A war on him. No matter what symbol someone comes with, no matter how organically it may be produced, the left wing media will always say "oh my hero" while the right will claim "marxism", "radical" and find some way to tie it to whichever divisive movement is a hot topic that week. A black and white view is needed for a debate, both in color of skin and difference of opinion, but the average person doesn't want to read a balanced debate anymore. I personally think its ridiculous to boo a player's action when that action is (more likely than not) not being done to support a marxist vendetta against the very capitalism that has put such wealth in their pockets, but because they believe that black people shouldn't be dying as often as they are. Everything about society is race filled. In the US, a black female is up to FOUR times more likely to die during pregnancy/childbirth than a similarly aged white woman! That is just one statistic that I find insane. There are so, so many more. The Daily Mirror et al., are more than happy to run articles that start "The Black Lives Matter's Take The Knee...." because A) it riles people up, distracting them from the real world problems B) its much easier than actually giving a shit about the huge discrepancies in the quality of life between whites and blacks around the world. In summary, I believe that no matter what gesture comes up, media will always find it "divisive" because its sells more to attack the gesture than it does to accept it. Over time its impossible to feel that that gesture is not divisive. To be honest mate, you make some points which Id definitely agree with. There are inequalities in society that are shocking, yet I feel that too many people are being manipulated by the media (on both left and right) into feeling that they have to 'take a side' when it comes to taking the knee. Like you allude to, there is of course polar opposite opinions on this subject, but I feel that everytime someone (who clearly is not a racist) makes an argument that is nuanced but not supportive of taking the knee, they are attacked. Id sooner put more weight behind Kick It Out, which had until recently been the driving force in the anti-racism movement in football. I just think its been hijacked by BLM, which has done more harm than good. Can you imagine, for example, if a white footballer decided NOT to take the knee becuase they disagreed with BLMs political agenda? They would be vilified and their teammates would probably turn against them. However, a few black players have decided to stop taking the knee and the reaction has been very different. That is what I mean by division. The players’ actions have been very successful in raising awareness. The debate would not be happening if they had not. The whole BLM issue is a red herring. Let’s face it, First it was benefit scroungers then the immigrants, now it's the woke brigade. It seems like the way to power is to make up a bogeyman and have that as the cause of all the problems in the country. Enough people keep falling for it so it's going to continue
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 18:18:56 GMT
There can be no doubt there is racism in football. Just comparing the amount of black players to the percentage of those that go into management, is a screaming indictment of this. “White flight” is the term used for this continual cycle. This was first identified in American football, where the owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers introduced the policy of ex ethnic minority players, and were given a fair/equal opportunity to apply for the head coach of his club. This policy was later named the “Rooney Rule”. As a result, Mike Tomlin, got the job. He went on to win seven division titles, three AFC Championships and one Super Bowl. Just imagine what Sol Campbell could do if someone would give him a job
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 16, 2021 18:25:57 GMT
There can be no doubt there is racism in football. Just comparing the amount of black players to the percentage of those that go into management, is a screaming indictment of this. “White flight” is the term used for this continual cycle. And the term used for your post is “jumping to conclusions”
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 18:30:50 GMT
There can be no doubt there is racism in football. Just comparing the amount of black players to the percentage of those that go into management, is a screaming indictment of this. “White flight” is the term used for this continual cycle. And the term used for your post is “jumping to conclusions” No?
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 18:33:28 GMT
There can be no doubt there is racism in football. Just comparing the amount of black players to the percentage of those that go into management, is a screaming indictment of this. “White flight” is the term used for this continual cycle. And the term used for your post is “jumping to conclusions” Sounds like your term, pal. Go ahead, mind.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 18:44:51 GMT
There can be no doubt there is racism in football. Just comparing the amount of black players to the percentage of those that go into management, is a screaming indictment of this. “White flight” is the term used for this continual cycle. This was first identified in American football, where the owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers introduced the policy of ex ethnic minority players, and were given a fair/equal opportunity to apply for the head coach of his club. This policy was later named the “Rooney Rule”. As a result, Mike Tomlin, got the job. He went on to win seven division titles, three AFC Championships and one Super Bowl. Just imagine what Sol Campbell could do if someone would give him a job He come across well on the radio. Did a good job with Macclesfield as well. Who knows, though? It’s not just Sol Campbell. Look at the Jonny Walters situation. The man is tailor made for management. The epitome of not giving a giving a man of colour the chance to make a first step into management.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 16, 2021 18:46:10 GMT
There can be no doubt there is racism in football. Just comparing the amount of black players to the percentage of those that go into management, is a screaming indictment of this. “White flight” is the term used for this continual cycle. This was first identified in American football, where the owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers introduced the policy of ex ethnic minority players, and were given a fair/equal opportunity to apply for the head coach of his club. This policy was later named the “Rooney Rule”. As a result, Mike Tomlin, got the job. He went on to win seven division titles, three AFC Championships and one Super Bowl. But for every Mike Tomlin there’s an Anthony Lynn. In the same way that for every Alex Ferguson there’s a Alan Ball. For every example of a success there will be one of a failure. Why are there next to no black swimmers or ice hockey players in the same way as why are there not many white basketball players. There will always be cases of inbalance you could argue that at the moment that there is an imbalance in relation to black sports presenters in relation to the ratio of the U.K. population. It’s impossible to get the balance always right.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 18:51:15 GMT
There can be no doubt there is racism in football. Just comparing the amount of black players to the percentage of those that go into management, is a screaming indictment of this. “White flight” is the term used for this continual cycle. This was first identified in American football, where the owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers introduced the policy of ex ethnic minority players, and were given a fair/equal opportunity to apply for the head coach of his club. This policy was later named the “Rooney Rule”. As a result, Mike Tomlin, got the job. He went on to win seven division titles, three AFC Championships and one Super Bowl. But for every Mike Tomlin there’s an Anthony Lynn. In the same way that for every Alex Ferguson there’s a Alan Ball. For every example of a success there will be one of a failure. Why are there next to no black swimmers or ice hockey players in the same way as why are there not many white basketball players. There will always be cases of inbalance you could argue that at the moment that there is an imbalance in relation to black sports presenters in relation to the ratio of the U.K. population. It’s impossible to get the balance always right. Swimming and ice hockey are played/participated,by an overwhelming majority of white participants. Football, isn’t. Maybe 50/50 in terms of white v black players? (Or very close) To have so few black managers must raise an eyebrow or two?
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 16, 2021 18:55:19 GMT
But for every Mike Tomlin there’s an Anthony Lynn. In the same way that for every Alex Ferguson there’s a Alan Ball. For every example of a success there will be one of a failure. Why are there next to no black swimmers or ice hockey players in the same way as why are there not many white basketball players. There will always be cases of inbalance you could argue that at the moment that there is an imbalance in relation to black sports presenters in relation to the ratio of the U.K. population. It’s impossible to get the balance always right. Swimming and ice hockey are played/participated,by an overwhelming majority of white participants. Football, isn’t. Maybe 50/50 in terms of white v black players? (Or very close) To have so few black managers must raise an eyebrow or two? Fair point. That said it may be that they don’t fancy it and would rather do the media thing where I’d suggest currently if anything there’s an imbalance
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2021 18:58:17 GMT
Just imagine what Sol Campbell could do if someone would give him a job He come across well on the radio. Did a good job with Macclesfield as well. Who knows, though? It’s not just Sol Campbell. Look at the Jonny Walters situation. The man is tailor made for management. The epitome of not giving a giving a man of colour the chance to make a first step into management. Would the Rooney rule apply to Walters?
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Post by zerps on Jul 16, 2021 18:59:53 GMT
This thread will go down in history Better than rough lesbians volume 2 Not seen that. I'll have a look. And I will get some diversity credit points on top, bonus. You need it in your life.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:00:24 GMT
Swimming and ice hockey are played/participated,by an overwhelming majority of white participants. Football, isn’t. Maybe 50/50 in terms of white v black players? (Or very close) To have so few black managers must raise an eyebrow or two? Fair point. That said it may be that they don’t fancy it and would rather do the media thing where I’d suggest currently if anything there’s an imbalance Considering the 50/50 participation, I would suggest many aren’t even doing that!
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:01:01 GMT
He come across well on the radio. Did a good job with Macclesfield as well. Who knows, though? It’s not just Sol Campbell. Look at the Jonny Walters situation. The man is tailor made for management. The epitome of not giving a giving a man of colour the chance to make a first step into management. Would the Rooney rule apply to Walters? Absolutely! 😂
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Post by zerps on Jul 16, 2021 19:01:11 GMT
He come across well on the radio. Did a good job with Macclesfield as well. Who knows, though? It’s not just Sol Campbell. Look at the Jonny Walters situation. The man is tailor made for management. The epitome of not giving a giving a man of colour the chance to make a first step into management. Would the Rooney rule apply to Walters? How dare people assume the race of SJW
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 16, 2021 19:04:41 GMT
But for every Mike Tomlin there’s an Anthony Lynn. In the same way that for every Alex Ferguson there’s a Alan Ball. For every example of a success there will be one of a failure. Why are there next to no black swimmers or ice hockey players in the same way as why are there not many white basketball players. There will always be cases of inbalance you could argue that at the moment that there is an imbalance in relation to black sports presenters in relation to the ratio of the U.K. population. It’s impossible to get the balance always right. Swimming and ice hockey are played/participated,by an overwhelming majority of white participants. Football, isn’t. Maybe 50/50 in terms of white v black players? (Or very close) To have so few black managers must raise an eyebrow or two? So why is the professional game racist against white people at playing level? This seems like a damning indictment?
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:10:13 GMT
Swimming and ice hockey are played/participated,by an overwhelming majority of white participants. Football, isn’t. Maybe 50/50 in terms of white v black players? (Or very close) To have so few black managers must raise an eyebrow or two? So why is the professional game racist against white people at playing level? This seems like a damning indictment? The game isn’t racist against white people?
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Post by followyoudown on Jul 16, 2021 19:14:22 GMT
But for every Mike Tomlin there’s an Anthony Lynn. In the same way that for every Alex Ferguson there’s a Alan Ball. For every example of a success there will be one of a failure. Why are there next to no black swimmers or ice hockey players in the same way as why are there not many white basketball players. There will always be cases of inbalance you could argue that at the moment that there is an imbalance in relation to black sports presenters in relation to the ratio of the U.K. population. It’s impossible to get the balance always right. Swimming and ice hockey are played/participated,by an overwhelming majority of white participants. Football, isn’t. Maybe 50/50 in terms of white v black players? (Or very close) To have so few black managers must raise an eyebrow or two? Black managers is the wrong metric, how many league clubs give first time managers a job ? A manager lasts on average 18 months so fail in your first job and you most likely dont get a second chance, Chris Houghton for instance will walk into another championship job if it goes tits up at Forest because of his past record, Nathan Jones would find it much more of a struggle if Luton ever sack him. Coaching and Academy staff would be a much better measure and from what I see there is defintely under representation, how much of that is lack of opportunities and how much is in some cases millionaires not wanting a job at £40k a year I don't know, Ashley Cole has gone down that route at Chelsea and I'd be surprised if he is not a manager at championship level at least within 3 or 4 years if he wants to be.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 16, 2021 19:14:58 GMT
So why is the professional game racist against white people at playing level? This seems like a damning indictment? The game isn’t racist against white people? What else would explain their underrepresentation at playing level?
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:16:30 GMT
The game isn’t racist against white people? What else would explain their underrepresentation at playing level? You think white people in Britain are underrepresented at playing level?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2021 19:16:39 GMT
But for every Mike Tomlin there’s an Anthony Lynn. In the same way that for every Alex Ferguson there’s a Alan Ball. For every example of a success there will be one of a failure. Why are there next to no black swimmers or ice hockey players in the same way as why are there not many white basketball players. There will always be cases of inbalance you could argue that at the moment that there is an imbalance in relation to black sports presenters in relation to the ratio of the U.K. population. It’s impossible to get the balance always right. Swimming and ice hockey are played/participated,by an overwhelming majority of white participants. Football, isn’t. Maybe 50/50 in terms of white v black players? (Or very close) To have so few black managers must raise an eyebrow or two? You're conveniently overlooking something staring you in the face. If, as you suggest it is a 50/50 split in terms of players, then football is clearly, massively in favour of employing black people, as at the last census amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British. EDIT: Apologies PotterLog, I see you've made the same point.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 16, 2021 19:17:44 GMT
What else would explain their underrepresentation at playing level? You think white people in Britain are underrepresented at playing level? No, you think that. You just suggested it was 50/50
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 16, 2021 19:19:48 GMT
Swimming and ice hockey are played/participated,by an overwhelming majority of white participants. Football, isn’t. Maybe 50/50 in terms of white v black players? (Or very close) To have so few black managers must raise an eyebrow or two? You're conveniently overlooking something staring you in the face. If, as you suggest it is a 50/50 split in terms of players, then football is clearly, massively in favour of employing black people, as at the last census amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British. EDIT: Apologies PotterLog, I see you've made the same point. You made it much less glibly than I did 😅
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 16, 2021 19:22:26 GMT
So why is the professional game racist against white people at playing level? This seems like a damning indictment? The game isn’t racist against white people? I think what you’re basically saying is that it’s ok for there to be an unequal ratio of black to white players in relation to population where 3 percent of the U.K. population are black yet 50 percent make up the players. Does that mean that the white kids aren’t being coached as well as the black kids? In the same respect the ratio of black people who are analysts are very high. Does that mean that people who could be great on TV don’t deserve the chance because theyve never played to a high level? Stupid arguments on my part. I guess what i’m trying to say is you’ll never have a perfect balance.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:25:34 GMT
Swimming and ice hockey are played/participated,by an overwhelming majority of white participants. Football, isn’t. Maybe 50/50 in terms of white v black players? (Or very close) To have so few black managers must raise an eyebrow or two? Black managers is the wrong metric, how many league clubs give first time managers a job ? A manager lasts on average 18 months so fail in your first job and you most likely dont get a second chance, Chris Houghton for instance will walk into another championship job if it goes tits up at Forest because of his past record, Nathan Jones would find it much more of a struggle if Luton ever sack him. Coaching and Academy staff would be a much better measure and from what I see there is defintely under representation, how much of that is lack of opportunities and how much is in some cases millionaires not wanting a job at £40k a year I don't know, Ashley Cole has gone down that route at Chelsea and I'd be surprised if he is not a manager at championship level at least within 3 or 4 years if he wants to be. I would suggest neither Jones or Hughton would struggle to get a job, if fired from their current clubs. I would imagine Hughton would get a club in a higher league than Jones, based on experience of his success at a higher level. I would also moot, that there are probably a similar amount of ex players, (white and black) that don’t want to go into management, also. Thus, there maybe an equal division who want to go into management. However, by that rationale, many of those ex black players may want to go into management, but don’t apply, because that route seems to be populated and be more successful than those who are not of colour.
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Post by zerps on Jul 16, 2021 19:29:11 GMT
Anyone suggesting we’re all different colours is racist as fuck.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:31:33 GMT
Swimming and ice hockey are played/participated,by an overwhelming majority of white participants. Football, isn’t. Maybe 50/50 in terms of white v black players? (Or very close) To have so few black managers must raise an eyebrow or two? You're conveniently overlooking something staring you in the face. If, as you suggest it is a 50/50 split in terms of players, then football is clearly, massively in favour of employing black people, as at the last census amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British. EDIT: Apologies PotterLog, I see you've made the same point. Those figures don’t really matter when we look at those participating in football. Which is around 50/50 or so. There are more Indian managers of a Kabaddi team,because a majority of players are Indian. If there were a 50/50 split of Indian and white people playing Kabaddi, you would expect that there would be more white people going into management, also.
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Post by prettything on Jul 16, 2021 19:34:31 GMT
Anyone suggesting we’re all different colours is racist as fuck. Thanks Zerps
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Post by zerps on Jul 16, 2021 19:36:32 GMT
Anyone suggesting we’re all different colours is racist as fuck. Thanks Zerps Needed saying
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 16, 2021 19:38:35 GMT
You're conveniently overlooking something staring you in the face. If, as you suggest it is a 50/50 split in terms of players, then football is clearly, massively in favour of employing black people, as at the last census amongst the 56 million residents in England and Wales, 86% were White, and 3% were Black/African/Caribbean/Black British. EDIT: Apologies PotterLog, I see you've made the same point. Those figures don’t really matter when we look at those participating in football. Which is around 50/50 or so. There are more Indian managers of a Kabaddi team,because a majority of players are Indian. If there were a 50/50 split of Indian and white people playing Kabaddi, you would expect that there would be more white people going into management, also. Of course they matter ... you're seeing only what you want to see. If football Chairman and football CEO'S were inherently racist, then they wouldn't employ a MASSIVELY disproportionate number of black footballers to white footballers, based on the make-up of our society, would they? They just want to win. Most Chairman would sell their Granny for a season of glory, they couldn't give a stuff if their staff were green and pink and had just landed from Mars if they could provide them with success, be that players, coaches or managers.
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