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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 19, 2021 13:13:12 GMT
And you are quite entitled to do so if you wish. That's the beauty of living in a tolerant country. Which country do you live in then? Name a few countries that are more tolerant than ours. I’d suggest we’re in the top 5 countries in the world. Perhaps that’s why there’s so much division because people can generally have an opinion. We have our faults and there is a worrying increase in knife crime etc but with the exception of New Zealand / Australia theres not many places i’d rather live.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 19, 2021 13:16:57 GMT
I think what would be really helpful, is if people would draw breath, take a step back and consider, what actually happened and look at the sequence of events that led to where we are today. Maintaining entrenched, polarized positions, without doing so, is just going to see the debate continue to go round in circles. The first time any footballers in this country took the knee was prior to the opening game of last season, Aston Villa v Sheffield Utd. All 22 players had their names removed from their shirts and had them replaced by support for the Black Lives Matter movement. news.sky.com/story/black-lives-matter-all-22-players-and-referee-take-a-knee-before-kick-off-as-premier-league-returns-12008964"All 22 players and the referee "took a knee" in support of the Black Lives Matter movement as the first Premier League match since lockdown got under way at Villa Park.It marked the league's endorsement of the international protest campaign sparked by the death last month of George Floyd, a black man, at the hands of Minneapolis police officers. Aston Villa released a statement, which read: "Aston Villa and Sheffield United were proud to stand in solidarity with the actions of the players and coaching staff of both football clubs during the first ten seconds of tonight's Premier League fixture, expressing our collective support for the Black Lives Matter movement."
If we remember, this was an organic movement that spread across all the clubs over a period of time. If I recall, Burnley were the last club to get on board with it but it was far from collectively co-ordinated from the get go. This story was reported across all media platforms at the time and was continued to be reported, as more and more players came out in support of the Black Lives Matter movement, at one point, every player swapped their names for the Black Lives Matter movement. Indeed six months after they started doing it Harry Kane reiterated the reason for doing it ... www.firstpost.com/sports/premier-league-players-should-keep-taking-knee-in-support-of-black-lives-matter-says-tottenhams-harry-kane-9073951.html"Obviously we have done a lot with Black Lives Matter and taking the knee before games.I hear people talking about taking the knee and whether we should still be doing it, and for me I think we should."In my opinion, a whole bunch of factors led to something of a perfect storm. Covid had created a vacuum, meaning that this gesture was taking place in empty stadiums. If Covid hadn't have happened and they had started taking the knee in front of capacity crowds, I genuinely believe that taking the knee would have been over within two or three weeks, as the booing would have been deafening and would have led to considered discourse around who the Black Lives Matter movement were, what they stood for and what their agenda was. Thing is, nobody at the clubs or any of the players themselves or their representatives actually stopped to check what it was all about. And there wasn't anybody in the media who was going to challenge it either, to have done so, would have to in effect, written your resignation letter. And once it became apparent what BLM were all about, it was too late, they'd been doing it for months and if they stopped doing it now, it would look like they had given in to the 'racists', so they decided to try and change the narrative and now suggest that they weren't actually doing it to support BLM but as a gesture against not only racism but all discrimination. And that's what the narrative they're still running with today but unfortunately that one isn't going to wash either. How on earth can they suggest they're making a stand against all discrimination, when we, as a nation, are about to compete in a tournament where it is illegal to be a homosexual and it is punishable by death if you are a Muslim? It's utterly absurd. I absolutely abhor discrimination in every form but we really need to create some context and perspective here, surely sending out a national team to compete in a country where the LBGT community is persecuted at state level is far, far worse than some lonely teenage prick sitting in his bedroom in Kansas knocking out racist tweets to some of the most privileged men ever to walk the earth? So what can the players do if they really want stand up against all forms of discrimination? They can boycott Twitter and Instagram for a start, not for a token one weekend gesture but indefinitely. South Africa was the pariah of the sports and entertainment world for 30 years but in the end the boycotts brought apartheid to an end. We know that boycott's work. Thing is, the player's sponsors won't be happy if they were to do that for any length of time because it would seriously reduce the player's profile. Talking of sponsors, the players can delve into how clean the companies are who sponsor them (when it comes to discrimination in the factories) and if necessary - reject the sponsorship. They can boycott the Qatar world cup and if they're not prepared to do that, at least stand across the pitch before kick-off and link arms together in an act of solidarity with LBGT community in Qatar - not sure how that will go down with FIFA mind. I genuinely think that from the beginning, the players motives were made entirely in good conscious and if they had realised at the beginning what the BLM movement stood for then they would have been so vocal in their support for it but to pretend that isn't what happened is pretty disingenuous, it did and it has to be owned. Ultimately, they finally did realise what they representing but really, rather than attempting to change the narrative, they should have (imo) just stopped the gesture, ultimately it would have been far more dignified and if they did want to continue making a stand, they should have moved on to something else. What are BLM all about then just out of interest mate? I think that depends on who you ask mate. Critics of the movement will suggest that they are a Marxist leaning group, who have called for the defunding of the police and end to the nuclear family, whilst supporters will say that they are a civil rights group making a stand for not only black but other disenfranchised communities (LGBT rights for example) but there is no denying that they are very much a political organisation. www.stanforddaily.com/2020/11/15/the-case-against-blm/
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 19, 2021 13:35:06 GMT
What are BLM all about then just out of interest mate? I think part of the problem is that everyone has a djifferent take on them. What’s yours? Broadly speaking I think that it is an organisation that despite being associated with some controversial characters is demonised by the media for its own ends........
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Post by fca47 on Jul 19, 2021 13:48:50 GMT
The most ignorant people associated with all this are the millionaire footballers, who, if the Marxists had their way, wouldn't be earning the vast amount of money they are.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 19, 2021 13:53:45 GMT
The most ignorant people associated with all this are the millionaire footballers, who, if the Marxists had their way, wouldn't be earning the vast amount of money they are. You know a lot of Marxist do you?
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Post by independent on Jul 19, 2021 14:15:30 GMT
When USSR had a good football team, mainly composed of GEORGIANS from Dinamo Tbilisi, There were no highly paid players on the team.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2021 14:20:44 GMT
The most ignorant people associated with all this are the millionaire footballers, who, if the Marxists had their way, wouldn't be earning the vast amount of money they are. Sounds good to me, where do i sign up?
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 19, 2021 14:20:52 GMT
I think part of the problem is that everyone has a djifferent take on them. What’s yours? Broadly speaking I think that it is an organisation that despite being associated with some controversial characters is demonised by the media for its own ends........ Then perhaps the problem is the likes of those characters like Gary McFarlane and Sasha Johnson. But aren’t the organisation partly responsible for not banning them for there extremist views.
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Post by independent on Jul 19, 2021 14:22:03 GMT
Similarly, the great Cuban Heavyweight boxer Teofilo Stevenson who was accepted by a lot of experts to be the best in the world was never allowed to fight as a professional. This was in the seventies when boxers were earning millions.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2021 14:23:59 GMT
Which country do you live in then? Name a few countries that are more tolerant than ours. I’d suggest we’re in the top 5 countries in the world. Perhaps that’s why there’s so much division because people can generally have an opinion. We have our faults and there is a worrying increase in knife crime etc but with the exception of New Zealand / Australia theres not many places i’d rather live. meltonjohn seems to think booing players taking a knee is on a par with ethnic cleansing
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 19, 2021 14:24:32 GMT
The most ignorant people associated with all this are the millionaire footballers, who, if the Marxists had their way, wouldn't be earning the vast amount of money they are. You know a lot of Marxist do you? Marxism in Simple Terms. ... To define Marxism in simple terms, it's a political and economic theory where a society has no classes. Every person within the society works for a common good, and class struggle is theoretically gone. Does that mean that there’s no point in trying to better yourself because there’s no point as you’ll get no reward?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jul 19, 2021 14:39:29 GMT
You know a lot of Marxist do you? Marxism in Simple Terms. ... To define Marxism in simple terms, it's a political and economic theory where a society has no classes. Every person within the society works for a common good, and class struggle is theoretically gone. Does that mean that there’s no point in trying to better yourself because there’s no point as you’ll get no reward? I think that it a pretty simplistic view of Marxism. I'd love to see an end to the class system in this country and other countries - such as the caste system in India, for example. It seems to me that any class system's biggest fault is the unequal opportunities it affords most of its citizens. But I'm a long way from being a Marxist as, if there was no class system, I would not expect people to be denied the opportunity to be rewarded for their talents and hard work. And, whilst there are faults with capitalism, I'd rather see it better regulated than consigned to the dustbin of history, as it seems to produce stronger economies than any other system so far invented.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 19, 2021 14:59:32 GMT
Marxism in Simple Terms. ... To define Marxism in simple terms, it's a political and economic theory where a society has no classes. Every person within the society works for a common good, and class struggle is theoretically gone. Does that mean that there’s no point in trying to better yourself because there’s no point as you’ll get no reward? I think that it a pretty simplistic view of Marxism. I'd love to see an end to the class system in this country and other countries - such as the caste system in India, for example. It seems to me that any class system's biggest fault is the unequal opportunities it affords most of its citizens. But I'm a long way from being a Marxist as, if there was no class system, I would not expect people to be denied the opportunity to be rewarded for their talents and hard work. And, whilst there are faults with capitalism, I'd rather see it better regulated than consigned to the dustbin of history, as it seems to produce stronger economies than any other system so far invented. I see some benefits to it. There is a very small percentage of people who have way to much money and certainly more than they will ever need and are the type that will spend 5k on a bottle of champagne that could feed a family for 2-3 years. That is very wrong and needs to be addressing. As people should learn the value of money and how lucky they are. What I do believe in though is that we should reward hard work and encourage it and that if people knuckle down they should benefit financially for doing so. By doing that it breeds ambition which isn’t a bad thing thing. I certainly don’t think people who are lazy and refuse to work if they can should be handed something on a plate. As a country this is one of my biggest gripes at the moment. I guess that’s why i don’t belong in any group.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 19, 2021 15:14:28 GMT
I think that it a pretty simplistic view of Marxism. I'd love to see an end to the class system in this country and other countries - such as the caste system in India, for example. It seems to me that any class system's biggest fault is the unequal opportunities it affords most of its citizens. But I'm a long way from being a Marxist as, if there was no class system, I would not expect people to be denied the opportunity to be rewarded for their talents and hard work. And, whilst there are faults with capitalism, I'd rather see it better regulated than consigned to the dustbin of history, as it seems to produce stronger economies than any other system so far invented. I see some benefits to it. There is a very small percentage of people who have way to much money and certainly more than they will ever need and are the type that will spend 5k on a bottle of champagne that could feed a family for 2-3 years. That is very wrong and needs to be addressing. As people should learn the value of money and how lucky they are. What I do believe in though is that we should reward hard work and encourage it and that if people knuckle down they should benefit financially for doing so. By doing that it breeds ambition which isn’t a bad thing thing. I certainly don’t think people who are lazy and refuse to work if they can should be handed something on a plate. As a country this is one of my biggest gripes at the moment. I guess that’s why i don’t belong in any group. If hard work equated to money there would be a lot of rich poor people out there........
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Post by devondumpling on Jul 19, 2021 15:15:50 GMT
I think part of the problem is that everyone has a djifferent take on them. What’s yours? Broadly speaking I think that it is an organisation that despite being associated with some controversial characters is demonised by the media for its own ends........ I think it's the opposite PP. You think the BBC is demonising BLM? Who is by the way so we can all fact check it?
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jul 19, 2021 15:45:20 GMT
I think that it a pretty simplistic view of Marxism. I'd love to see an end to the class system in this country and other countries - such as the caste system in India, for example. It seems to me that any class system's biggest fault is the unequal opportunities it affords most of its citizens. But I'm a long way from being a Marxist as, if there was no class system, I would not expect people to be denied the opportunity to be rewarded for their talents and hard work. And, whilst there are faults with capitalism, I'd rather see it better regulated than consigned to the dustbin of history, as it seems to produce stronger economies than any other system so far invented. I see some benefits to it. There is a very small percentage of people who have way to much money and certainly more than they will ever need and are the type that will spend 5k on a bottle of champagne that could feed a family for 2-3 years. That is very wrong and needs to be addressing. As people should learn the value of money and how lucky they are. What I do believe in though is that we should reward hard work and encourage it and that if people knuckle down they should benefit financially for doing so. By doing that it breeds ambition which isn’t a bad thing thing. I certainly don’t think people who are lazy and refuse to work if they can should be handed something on a plate. As a country this is one of my biggest gripes at the moment. I guess that’s why i don’t belong in any group. There won't be many people who haven't at some time or another thought that the benefit system sometimes rewards idleness as well as the deserving poor who are trying to get work to take themselves out of poverty. I think the problems with trying to tackle this are twofold. First - children - it isn't the child's fault if they have a bone idle father and/or mother and if you cut off benefit for the parents then the child is likely to suffer long term damage. Second - someone with no income is more tempted to turn to crime which probably makes the cost of benefit payments seem like a good deal for the tax payer. I don't have an answer, I'm afraid.
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Post by meltonjohn on Jul 19, 2021 15:53:56 GMT
Which country do you live in then? Name a few countries that are more tolerant than ours. I’d suggest we’re in the top 5 countries in the world. Perhaps that’s why there’s so much division because people can generally have an opinion. We have our faults and there is a worrying increase in knife crime etc but with the exception of New Zealand / Australia theres not many places i’d rather live. Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Belgium, Scotland,Wales, for a start
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Post by meltonjohn on Jul 19, 2021 15:55:07 GMT
Name a few countries that are more tolerant than ours. I’d suggest we’re in the top 5 countries in the world. Perhaps that’s why there’s so much division because people can generally have an opinion. We have our faults and there is a worrying increase in knife crime etc but with the exception of New Zealand / Australia theres not many places i’d rather live. meltonjohn seems to think booing players taking a knee is on a par with ethnic cleansing Oh it’s much worse than that😉
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Post by meltonjohn on Jul 19, 2021 15:59:59 GMT
I see some benefits to it. There is a very small percentage of people who have way to much money and certainly more than they will ever need and are the type that will spend 5k on a bottle of champagne that could feed a family for 2-3 years. That is very wrong and needs to be addressing. As people should learn the value of money and how lucky they are. What I do believe in though is that we should reward hard work and encourage it and that if people knuckle down they should benefit financially for doing so. By doing that it breeds ambition which isn’t a bad thing thing. I certainly don’t think people who are lazy and refuse to work if they can should be handed something on a plate. As a country this is one of my biggest gripes at the moment. I guess that’s why i don’t belong in any group. There won't be many people who haven't at some time or another thought that the benefit system sometimes rewards idleness as well as the deserving poor who are trying to get work to take themselves out of poverty. I think the problems with trying to tackle this are twofold. First - children - it isn't the child's fault if they have a bone idle father and/or mother and if you cut off benefit for the parents then the child is likely to suffer long term damage. Second - someone with no income is more tempted to turn to crime which probably makes the cost of benefit payments seem like a good deal for the tax payer. I don't have an answer, I'm afraid. We have a low wage economy which unfortunately brings many more people into the benefits category, especially universal credit. We also have the lowest pension in Western Europe. People seem to get more annoyed with people on benefit than those who avoid tax and fiddle expenses etc. Guy up the road from me, self employed, huge 5 bed detached house proudly boasts of paying no income tax for example.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 19, 2021 16:09:17 GMT
There won't be many people who haven't at some time or another thought that the benefit system sometimes rewards idleness as well as the deserving poor who are trying to get work to take themselves out of poverty. I think the problems with trying to tackle this are twofold. First - children - it isn't the child's fault if they have a bone idle father and/or mother and if you cut off benefit for the parents then the child is likely to suffer long term damage. Second - someone with no income is more tempted to turn to crime which probably makes the cost of benefit payments seem like a good deal for the tax payer. I don't have an answer, I'm afraid. We have a low wage economy which unfortunately brings many more people into the benefits category, especially universal credit. We also have the lowest pension in Western Europe. People seem to get more annoyed with people on benefit than those who avoid tax and fiddle expenses etc. Guy up the road from me, self employed, huge 5 bed detached house proudly boasts of paying no income tax for example. I guess the problem ultimately is that people from both ends of the spectrum taking the piss with your normal working person who earns between 20-60k being the one who pays the price. Greed and idleness really cost us heh
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Post by meltonjohn on Jul 19, 2021 18:56:33 GMT
Name a few countries that are more tolerant than ours. I’d suggest we’re in the top 5 countries in the world. Perhaps that’s why there’s so much division because people can generally have an opinion. We have our faults and there is a worrying increase in knife crime etc but with the exception of New Zealand / Australia theres not many places i’d rather live. Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Belgium, Scotland,Wales, for a start Also Holland, Canada plus Oz and NZ …..
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 19, 2021 21:16:59 GMT
Sweden, Finland, Norway, Denmark, Germany, Belgium, Scotland,Wales, for a start Also Holland, Canada plus Oz and NZ ….. With the exception of Germany and the Netherlands you’ve picked countries there that aren’t particularly diverse certainly in comparison to the U.K. / England. Australia in particular are very frosty in relation to immigration.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 19, 2021 21:18:20 GMT
I think part of the problem is that everyone has a djifferent take on them. What’s yours? Broadly speaking I think that it is an organisation that despite being associated with some controversial characters is demonised by the media for its own ends........ Well they are against capitalism and want to defund the police. Leastways BLMUK are. I suspect some other folk may well be. I’m not.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 19, 2021 21:31:36 GMT
Broadly speaking I think that it is an organisation that despite being associated with some controversial characters is demonised by the media for its own ends........ Well they are against capitalism and want to defund the police. Leastways BLMUK are. I suspect some other folk may well be. I’m not. I'm against capitalism in many ways, it's pretty shit for a lot of people. From the BLMUK website...... Defunding the police
What does defunding the police mean? 'Defunding the police’ is often misunderstood and sounds worrying and alarming on hearing new grabbing headline through social the media and mainstream media. The public often mistakes defunding the police for either abolishment or taking away all funding from the police service; this is not what defunding the police means. Whilst we feel there may be merit in diverting police funding to other services in the community who are in a far better position to understand and adequately support our youth, youth services, and mental health in the community and more, that said we do not hold any position on defunding the police without and until the wider sections of society fully understand what this all entails, so at this time we do not support defunding the police at this time and stories of abolishing prisons is not a viable option to consider in the UK.
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Post by partickpotter on Jul 19, 2021 21:42:17 GMT
Well they are against capitalism and want to defund the police. Leastways BLMUK are. I suspect some other folk may well be. I’m not. I'm against capitalism in many ways, it's pretty shit for a lot of people. From the BLMUK website...... Defunding the police
What does defunding the police mean? 'Defunding the police’ is often misunderstood and sounds worrying and alarming on hearing new grabbing headline through social the media and mainstream media. The public often mistakes defunding the police for either abolishment or taking away all funding from the police service; this is not what defunding the police means. Whilst we feel there may be merit in diverting police funding to other services in the community who are in a far better position to understand and adequately support our youth, youth services, and mental health in the community and more, that said we do not hold any position on defunding the police without and until the wider sections of society fully understand what this all entails, so at this time we do not support defunding the police at this time and stories of abolishing prisons is not a viable option to consider in the UK.Are you surprised, after reading that, that the “defunding the police” message is misunderstood. What a load of jibberish.
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Post by cheadlepotter on Jul 19, 2021 21:48:03 GMT
I'm against capitalism in many ways, it's pretty shit for a lot of people. From the BLMUK website...... Defunding the police
What does defunding the police mean? 'Defunding the police’ is often misunderstood and sounds worrying and alarming on hearing new grabbing headline through social the media and mainstream media. The public often mistakes defunding the police for either abolishment or taking away all funding from the police service; this is not what defunding the police means. Whilst we feel there may be merit in diverting police funding to other services in the community who are in a far better position to understand and adequately support our youth, youth services, and mental health in the community and more, that said we do not hold any position on defunding the police without and until the wider sections of society fully understand what this all entails, so at this time we do not support defunding the police at this time and stories of abolishing prisons is not a viable option to consider in the UK.Are you surprised, after reading that, that the “defunding the police” message is misunderstood. What a load of jibberish. We want to defund the police but we don’t want to defund the police.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 19, 2021 21:55:02 GMT
Well they are against capitalism and want to defund the police. Leastways BLMUK are. I suspect some other folk may well be. I’m not. I'm against capitalism in many ways, it's pretty shit for a lot of people. From the BLMUK website...... Defunding the police
What does defunding the police mean? 'Defunding the police’ is often misunderstood and sounds worrying and alarming on hearing new grabbing headline through social the media and mainstream media. The public often mistakes defunding the police for either abolishment or taking away all funding from the police service; this is not what defunding the police means. Whilst we feel there may be merit in diverting police funding to other services in the community who are in a far better position to understand and adequately support our youth, youth services, and mental health in the community and more, that said we do not hold any position on defunding the police without and until the wider sections of society fully understand what this all entails, so at this time we do not support defunding the police at this time and stories of abolishing prisons is not a viable option to consider in the UK.Maybe they need to tell this chap then because just after he condoned the burning of the police station in Minneapolis he said that the community should do the policing rather than the Met. Unfortunately the likes of McFarlane if they are sending out the wrong message are doing more harm than good. I do think that more work in the community is beneficial but not at the cost of an already stretched police force that need to deal with the many burglaries, robberies, stabbing, murders, organised crime, mental health, criminal exploitation and various crimes already taking place.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 19, 2021 22:14:03 GMT
I'm against capitalism in many ways, it's pretty shit for a lot of people. From the BLMUK website...... Defunding the police
What does defunding the police mean? 'Defunding the police’ is often misunderstood and sounds worrying and alarming on hearing new grabbing headline through social the media and mainstream media. The public often mistakes defunding the police for either abolishment or taking away all funding from the police service; this is not what defunding the police means. Whilst we feel there may be merit in diverting police funding to other services in the community who are in a far better position to understand and adequately support our youth, youth services, and mental health in the community and more, that said we do not hold any position on defunding the police without and until the wider sections of society fully understand what this all entails, so at this time we do not support defunding the police at this time and stories of abolishing prisons is not a viable option to consider in the UK.Are you surprised, after reading that, that the “defunding the police” message is misunderstood. What a load of jibberish. well that and the fact that the phrase "defund the police" is deliberately misconstrued by many people of course.......
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Post by fca47 on Jul 19, 2021 22:17:45 GMT
The most ignorant people associated with all this are the millionaire footballers, who, if the Marxists had their way, wouldn't be earning the vast amount of money they are. You know a lot of Marxist do you? I know BLM are because they say so.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 19, 2021 22:18:34 GMT
Are you surprised, after reading that, that the “defunding the police” message is misunderstood. What a load of jibberish. well that and the fact that the phrase "defund the police" is deliberately misconstrued by many people of course....... It must be nice never being wrong.
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