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Post by PotterLog on Jul 18, 2021 3:04:20 GMT
I agree that those in power love to divide the population - and its the fault of the population that it allows them to do it! However, my issue is that I actually believe the whole taking of the knee issue has been completely counter-productive and created more opportunities to divide people. As mentioned before it seems you have to pick a side - if you're against taking the knee, you are racist. If you are for it, you must be extreme left-wing. Why is it not ok to have a nuanced and considered view? P eople are allowed to be against taking the knee, but completely against racism also. Im afraid some people wont accept that. I can only speak for myself. I don't have any problem with people who don't approve of taking the knee, some of my personal friends on this board (Leics Potter for example) are in that group. What annoys me - in fact makes me very angry - is not those people who disapprove of taking the knee but those who choose to make that disapproval known by booing it. We should all surely be mature enough to be able to disagree with England players' point of view or decision making without going the extra step and booing it. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with taking the knee the fact is the players have said (and I have no reason not to believe them) that they are doing it to protest against racism. To claim that the England team are a bunch of millionaires who take the knee to show support for Communism or Marxism is a big step too far in my book. The string of posts you quoted there mentions a “red herring”. I’d say your last sentence there is the reddest of herrings in the whole debate
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jul 18, 2021 7:21:52 GMT
I can only speak for myself. I don't have any problem with people who don't approve of taking the knee, some of my personal friends on this board (Leics Potter for example) are in that group. What annoys me - in fact makes me very angry - is not those people who disapprove of taking the knee but those who choose to make that disapproval known by booing it. We should all surely be mature enough to be able to disagree with England players' point of view or decision making without going the extra step and booing it. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with taking the knee the fact is the players have said (and I have no reason not to believe them) that they are doing it to protest against racism. To claim that the England team are a bunch of millionaires who take the knee to show support for Communism or Marxism is a big step too far in my book. The string of posts you quoted there mentions a “red herring”. I’d say your last sentence there is the reddest of herrings in the whole debate You are entitled to feel that but the Communism and Marxism quote was a reference to several quotes already on this thread.
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Post by salfordstokie on Jul 18, 2021 8:01:48 GMT
I agree that those in power love to divide the population - and its the fault of the population that it allows them to do it! However, my issue is that I actually believe the whole taking of the knee issue has been completely counter-productive and created more opportunities to divide people. As mentioned before it seems you have to pick a side - if you're against taking the knee, you are racist. If you are for it, you must be extreme left-wing. Why is it not ok to have a nuanced and considered view? P eople are allowed to be against taking the knee, but completely against racism also. Im afraid some people wont accept that. I can only speak for myself. I don't have any problem with people who don't approve of taking the knee, some of my personal friends on this board (Leics Potter for example) are in that group. What annoys me - in fact makes me very angry - is not those people who disapprove of taking the knee but those who choose to make that disapproval known by booing it. We should all surely be mature enough to be able to disagree with England players' point of view or decision making without going the extra step and booing it. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with taking the knee the fact is the players have said (and I have no reason not to believe them) that they are doing it to protest against racism. To claim that the England team are a bunch of millionaires who take the knee to show support for Communism or Marxism is a big step too far in my book. As Ive mentioned before, it is all about interpretation. I have no doubt that footballers are doing it to oppose racism. Yet fans have the absolute right to express their opposition through booing. Its a basic principle of freedom of expression that is, sadly, being whittled away in society in general. I would never personally boo, as whilst I associate taking the knee with the political movement of BLM, its equally the players freedom of choice to do it. However, to argue that all fans who boo must be racist is ludicrous.
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Post by 1982stokie on Jul 18, 2021 8:12:17 GMT
Despite what Potterburt may think re my views i believe all most people and myself want is genuine equality where people are treated as individuals and no one is favoured because of colour, gender or age. Agreed it won’t happen because certain discrimination is acceptable, You only have to look on social media, a friend of mine who is a single dad commented on a post the other day about parenting responsibilities and the huge majority of comments from women were in my mind sexist, things like all men are the same they take no responsibility to parenting, the put all pressure on women, men are lazy parents, now imagine flipping them comments on there head to all women are this an all women are that. Then you see comments like White people are inherently racist, that was made by a BLM leader during a speech about how wrong racial profiling is. after the racist tweets how many English people are racist posts did you see, people condemned racism while displaying racist views themselves. Again if you flip this kind of comment it would not be acceptable and rightly so. In fact in modern society men seem to get a much rougher ride with things that are said at the moment, if your a white male heterosexual sexual you can be targeted in any way and it’s acceptable, I am well aware of the historical imbalance in our society and the unfair treatment women have had to deal with, I also am aware that the level of racism that white people suffer in the Uk doesn’t compare the the prejudices suffered by people of colour, how ever two wrongs don’t make a right, you either want people to be seen as individual human beings or you want to just pigeon hole people based on race or gender, it can’t be both
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Post by Billy the kid on Jul 18, 2021 8:27:58 GMT
Despite what Potterburt may think re my views i believe all most people and myself want is genuine equality where people are treated as individuals and no one is favoured because of colour, gender or age. Agreed it won’t happen because certain discrimination is acceptable, You only have to look on social media, a friend of mine who is a single dad commented on a post the other day about parenting responsibilities and the huge majority of comments from women were in my mind sexist, things like all men are the same they take no responsibility to parenting, the put all pressure on women, men are lazy parents, now imagine flipping them comments on there head to all women are this an all women are that. Then you see comments like White people are inherently racist, that was made by a BLM leader during a speech about how wrong racial profiling is. after the racist tweets how many English people are racist posts did you see, people condemned racism while displaying racist views themselves. Again if you flip this kind of comment it would not be acceptable and rightly so. In fact in modern society men seem to get a much rougher ride with things that are said at the moment, if your a white male heterosexual sexual you can be targeted in any way and it’s acceptable, I am well aware of the historical imbalance in our society and the unfair treatment women have had to deal with, I also am aware that the level of racism that white people suffer in the Uk doesn’t compare the the prejudices suffered by people of colour, how ever two wrongs don’t make a right, you either want people to be seen as individual human beings or you want to just pigeon hole people based on race or gender, it can’t be both So basically, equality for all?
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Post by 1982stokie on Jul 18, 2021 8:53:39 GMT
Agreed it won’t happen because certain discrimination is acceptable, You only have to look on social media, a friend of mine who is a single dad commented on a post the other day about parenting responsibilities and the huge majority of comments from women were in my mind sexist, things like all men are the same they take no responsibility to parenting, the put all pressure on women, men are lazy parents, now imagine flipping them comments on there head to all women are this an all women are that. Then you see comments like White people are inherently racist, that was made by a BLM leader during a speech about how wrong racial profiling is. after the racist tweets how many English people are racist posts did you see, people condemned racism while displaying racist views themselves. Again if you flip this kind of comment it would not be acceptable and rightly so. In fact in modern society men seem to get a much rougher ride with things that are said at the moment, if your a white male heterosexual sexual you can be targeted in any way and it’s acceptable, I am well aware of the historical imbalance in our society and the unfair treatment women have had to deal with, I also am aware that the level of racism that white people suffer in the Uk doesn’t compare the the prejudices suffered by people of colour, how ever two wrongs don’t make a right, you either want people to be seen as individual human beings or you want to just pigeon hole people based on race or gender, it can’t be both So basically, equality for all? That’s how it should be,
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Post by Billy the kid on Jul 18, 2021 9:14:43 GMT
So basically, equality for all? That’s how it should be, 100%
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Post by leicspotter on Jul 18, 2021 11:43:51 GMT
I agree that those in power love to divide the population - and its the fault of the population that it allows them to do it! However, my issue is that I actually believe the whole taking of the knee issue has been completely counter-productive and created more opportunities to divide people. As mentioned before it seems you have to pick a side - if you're against taking the knee, you are racist. If you are for it, you must be extreme left-wing. Why is it not ok to have a nuanced and considered view? P eople are allowed to be against taking the knee, but completely against racism also. Im afraid some people wont accept that. I can only speak for myself. I don't have any problem with people who don't approve of taking the knee, some of my personal friends on this board (Leics Potter for example) are in that group. What annoys me - in fact makes me very angry - is not those people who disapprove of taking the knee but those who choose to make that disapproval known by booing it. We should all surely be mature enough to be able to disagree with England players' point of view or decision making without going the extra step and booing it. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with taking the knee the fact is the players have said (and I have no reason not to believe them) that they are doing it to protest against racism. To claim that the England team are a bunch of millionaires who take the knee to show support for Communism or Marxism is a big step too far in my book. Indeed I can confirm that I did NOT boo the players at Wembley, equally I did not Boo the Italian anthem and I stayed and applauded both sets of players at the end of the game, right through to the presentations, as did many, many others. It's about respect as far as I'm concerned. I can, and do, disagree, politely, with many people, about many things, but that's life...isn't it?
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Post by thevoid on Jul 18, 2021 16:58:22 GMT
Despite what Potterburt may think re my views i believe all most people and myself want is genuine equality where people are treated as individuals and no one is favoured because of colour, gender or age. Agreed it won’t happen because certain discrimination is acceptable, You only have to look on social media, a friend of mine who is a single dad commented on a post the other day about parenting responsibilities and the huge majority of comments from women were in my mind sexist, things like all men are the same they take no responsibility to parenting, the put all pressure on women, men are lazy parents, now imagine flipping them comments on there head to all women are this an all women are that. Then you see comments like White people are inherently racist, that was made by a BLM leader during a speech about how wrong racial profiling is. after the racist tweets how many English people are racist posts did you see, people condemned racism while displaying racist views themselves. Again if you flip this kind of comment it would not be acceptable and rightly so. In fact in modern society men seem to get a much rougher ride with things that are said at the moment, if your a white male heterosexual sexual you can be targeted in any way and it’s acceptable, I am well aware of the historical imbalance in our society and the unfair treatment women have had to deal with, I also am aware that the level of racism that white people suffer in the Uk doesn’t compare the the prejudices suffered by people of colour, how ever two wrongs don’t make a right, you either want people to be seen as individual human beings or you want to just pigeon hole people based on race or gender, it can’t be both Bravo
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 18, 2021 17:12:31 GMT
The string of posts you quoted there mentions a “red herring”. I’d say your last sentence there is the reddest of herrings in the whole debate You are entitled to feel that but the Communism and Marxism quote was a reference to several quotes already on this thread. But nobody in this debate ever seriously suggests that the players’ intentions are to support Marxism. You see this all the time in the media from the likes of Owen Jones and Billy Bragg - it’s just a disingenuous mischaracterisation of the opposition to the knee to make it look absurd and reactionary, and it really obstructs the debate. I’m not saying it’s necessarily what you’re doing here but that’s the recurring red herring in this discussion.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 18, 2021 17:25:02 GMT
Agreed it won’t happen because certain discrimination is acceptable, You only have to look on social media, a friend of mine who is a single dad commented on a post the other day about parenting responsibilities and the huge majority of comments from women were in my mind sexist, things like all men are the same they take no responsibility to parenting, the put all pressure on women, men are lazy parents, now imagine flipping them comments on there head to all women are this an all women are that. Then you see comments like White people are inherently racist, that was made by a BLM leader during a speech about how wrong racial profiling is. after the racist tweets how many English people are racist posts did you see, people condemned racism while displaying racist views themselves. Again if you flip this kind of comment it would not be acceptable and rightly so. In fact in modern society men seem to get a much rougher ride with things that are said at the moment, if your a white male heterosexual sexual you can be targeted in any way and it’s acceptable, I am well aware of the historical imbalance in our society and the unfair treatment women have had to deal with, I also am aware that the level of racism that white people suffer in the Uk doesn’t compare the the prejudices suffered by people of colour, how ever two wrongs don’t make a right, you either want people to be seen as individual human beings or you want to just pigeon hole people based on race or gender, it can’t be both Bravo A great post 1982. This video sums up some of what you’re saying. One of the biggest problems we have in the UK and one that through good work with the communities needs to change the views of the ladies challenging the officers. Their behaviour is misguided at best prejudiced at worst when they feel that the bigger issue is that the officers are searching a young black male than that he is in posession of a huge knife, I do understand their views re Police but to have such a blinkered view over such a blatantly wrong act just because of the colour of the offender is very worrying and needs to change. We have to start looking beyond the colour of the person and just be fair in our asessments.
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Post by colnepotter on Jul 18, 2021 18:01:29 GMT
A great post 1982. This video sums up some of what you’re saying. One of the biggest problems we have in the UK and one that through good work with the communities needs to change the views of the ladies challenging the officers. Their behaviour is misguided at best prejudiced at worst when they feel that the bigger issue is that the officers are searching a young black male than that he is in posession of a huge knife, I do understand their views re Police but to have such a blinkered view over such a blatantly wrong act just because of the colour of the offender is very worrying and he needs to change. We have to start looking beyond the colour of the person and just be fair in our asessments. Takes me back to when I worked in East London. Fair dos the Police really did/do work there arse off in a genuinely dangerous job. Quite rightly they target the most likely culprits. Not to do so would be plain silly. No doubt they will get accusations of racism, but what the heck, the black and Asian officers know what is going on, and the vast majority of us are right behind them. Pity the rest of the Police Service are not like it.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jul 18, 2021 18:25:15 GMT
I can only speak for myself. I don't have any problem with people who don't approve of taking the knee, some of my personal friends on this board (Leics Potter for example) are in that group. What annoys me - in fact makes me very angry - is not those people who disapprove of taking the knee but those who choose to make that disapproval known by booing it. We should all surely be mature enough to be able to disagree with England players' point of view or decision making without going the extra step and booing it. Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with taking the knee the fact is the players have said (and I have no reason not to believe them) that they are doing it to protest against racism. To claim that the England team are a bunch of millionaires who take the knee to show support for Communism or Marxism is a big step too far in my book. As Ive mentioned before, it is all about interpretation. I have no doubt that footballers are doing it to oppose racism. Yet fans have the absolute right to express their opposition through booing. Its a basic principle of freedom of expression that is, sadly, being whittled away in society in general. I would never personally boo, as whilst I associate taking the knee with the political movement of BLM, its equally the players freedom of choice to do it. However, to argue that all fans who boo must be racist is ludicrous. Fair enough. In which case I reserve my right to bare my arse at the fuckwits booing the players making a stance against racism.
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Post by xchpotter on Jul 18, 2021 18:47:14 GMT
A great post 1982. This video sums up some of what you’re saying. One of the biggest problems we have in the UK and one that through good work with the communities needs to change the views of the ladies challenging the officers. Their behaviour is misguided at best prejudiced at worst when they feel that the bigger issue is that the officers are searching a young black male than that he is in posession of a huge knife, I do understand their views re Police but to have such a blinkered view over such a blatantly wrong act just because of the colour of the offender is very worrying and needs to change. We have to start looking beyond the colour of the person and just be fair in our asessments. Nah, not having that. I saw the copper plant that knife 😉.
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Post by gawa on Jul 18, 2021 20:13:56 GMT
Question to the fans who either boo the knee or disapprove it due to their perception of the "politics" associated with it.
Do you give the same respect and understanding to fans and players which boo or disapprove of the poppy and rememberance day due to the association it has with colonisation and the innocent lives which that has cost?
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Post by numpty40 on Jul 18, 2021 20:25:39 GMT
As Ive mentioned before, it is all about interpretation. I have no doubt that footballers are doing it to oppose racism. Yet fans have the absolute right to express their opposition through booing. Its a basic principle of freedom of expression that is, sadly, being whittled away in society in general. I would never personally boo, as whilst I associate taking the knee with the political movement of BLM, its equally the players freedom of choice to do it. However, to argue that all fans who boo must be racist is ludicrous. Fair enough. In which case I reserve my right to bare my arse at the fuckwits booing the players making a stance against racism. And you are quite entitled to do so if you wish. That's the beauty of living in a tolerant country.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 18, 2021 22:35:36 GMT
Question to the fans who either boo the knee or disapprove it due to their perception of the "politics" associated with it. Do you give the same respect and understanding to fans and players which boo or disapprove of the poppy and rememberance day due to the association it has with colonisation and the innocent lives which that has cost? 100%
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Post by meltonjohn on Jul 18, 2021 22:56:40 GMT
Fair enough. In which case I reserve my right to bare my arse at the fuckwits booing the players making a stance against racism. And you are quite entitled to do so if you wish. That's the beauty of living in a tolerant country. Which country do you live in then?
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jul 18, 2021 23:13:03 GMT
Question to the fans who either boo the knee or disapprove it due to their perception of the "politics" associated with it. Do you give the same respect and understanding to fans and players which boo or disapprove of the poppy and rememberance day due to the association it has with colonisation and the innocent lives which that has cost? Do you disapprove of Remembrance Day? The clue is ‘Remembrance’ and not historic hegemony over former colonies. You, yourself may have your ancestors names caved on the menin gate, or somewhere else. If you accuse this nation of historic racism, then you yourself are guilty. As the Sex Pistols said ‘ No One is Innocent’. Can you tell me what colonies the Royal British Legion ruled over? Yep, that’d be none.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 18, 2021 23:33:19 GMT
Question to the fans who either boo the knee or disapprove it due to their perception of the "politics" associated with it. Do you give the same respect and understanding to fans and players which boo or disapprove of the poppy and rememberance day due to the association it has with colonisation and the innocent lives which that has cost? Do you disapprove of Remembrance Day? The clue is ‘Remembrance’ and not historic hegemony over former colonies. You, yourself may have your ancestors names caved on the menin gate, or somewhere else. If you accuse this nation of historic racism, then you yourself are guilty. As the Sex Pistols said ‘ No One is Innocent’. Can you tell me what colonies the Royal British Legion ruled over? Yep, that’d be none. Some people feel there are political associations with the poppy that go beyond “remembrance”, and it’s a valid point of view. It’s not perfectly analogous but the question is a pretty decent test of principle.
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jul 18, 2021 23:41:57 GMT
Do you disapprove of Remembrance Day? The clue is ‘Remembrance’ and not historic hegemony over former colonies. You, yourself may have your ancestors names caved on the menin gate, or somewhere else. If you accuse this nation of historic racism, then you yourself are guilty. As the Sex Pistols said ‘ No One is Innocent’. Can you tell me what colonies the Royal British Legion ruled over? Yep, that’d be none. Some people feel there are political associations with the poppy that go beyond “remembrance”, and it’s a valid point of view. It’s not perfectly analogous but the question is a pretty decent test of principle. Lots of things are hijacked for other reasons. If you feel the Royal British Legion (RBL) are political than you’re wholly wrong. If you can’t see that the RBL is being exploited then see the truth instead of the prejudice.
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Post by PotterLog on Jul 19, 2021 0:02:40 GMT
Some people feel there are political associations with the poppy that go beyond “remembrance”, and it’s a valid point of view. It’s not perfectly analogous but the question is a pretty decent test of principle. Lots of things are hijacked for other reasons. If you feel the Royal British Legion (RBL) are political than you’re wholly wrong. If you can’t see that the RBL is being exploited then see the truth instead of the prejudice. Fine. The idea behind the analogy is that supporters of the knee could make this exact same point. It’s about respecting the fact that there could be opposition to something you support for valid, good-faith reasons, even if you disagree with them.
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Post by Dutchpeter on Jul 19, 2021 0:08:12 GMT
Lots of things are hijacked for other reasons. If you feel the Royal British Legion (RBL) are political than you’re wholly wrong. If you can’t see that the RBL is being exploited then see the truth instead of the prejudice. Fine. The idea behind the analogy is that supporters of the knee could make this exact same point Yes agreed, empathy and context are in short supply at the moment.
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jul 19, 2021 9:22:36 GMT
Lots of things are hijacked for other reasons. If you feel the Royal British Legion (RBL) are political than you’re wholly wrong. If you can’t see that the RBL is being exploited then see the truth instead of the prejudice. Fine. The idea behind the analogy is that supporters of the knee could make this exact same point. It’s about respecting the fact that there could be opposition to something you support for valid, good-faith reasons, even if you disagree with them. The people booing the poppy believe they are booing the atrocities of war. For the most part the people wearing a poppy are remembering the sacrifices of the fallen. Being against the atrocities of war is a good thing. Booing people for wearing the poppy is wrong - it's booing the wrong thing and effectively is booing remembering people who sacrificed their lives. It's exactly the same with booing the players taking the knee. Some people may believe they are making a stand against political extremism but the players taking the knee are doing it to say they won't tolerate racism. Making a stand against political extremism is fine - but in booing the players taking the knee they are booing people taking a stand against racism - which is wrong. In both cases the people may well feel justified in booing because what they believe they are booing is worth booing. However what they are booing is what's in their own head - it's not what the people who are being booed are actually saying. They are booing the wrong thing.
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Post by independent on Jul 19, 2021 9:49:30 GMT
"Some people may believe they are making a stand against political extremism but the players taking the knee are doing it to say they won't tolerate racism." Amazing that you can tell us what both groups are thinking. Are both groups entitled to their belief? I think most people are anti racism. In the seventies, TV always showed an intelligent Black person and a White racist as a stupid buffoon. Look at "love thy Neighbour" and "Rising Damp". Not exactly a true representation of life, more like propaganda. Today, all we are getting is an exaggeration of the number of racists by counting all the foreigners who post on social media. The analysis of posters seems to suggest that 1 in a thousand are British. Why isn't this being highlighted?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jul 19, 2021 10:27:36 GMT
"Some people may believe they are making a stand against political extremism but the players taking the knee are doing it to say they won't tolerate racism." Amazing that you can tell us what both groups are thinking. Are both groups entitled to their belief? I think most people are anti racism. In the seventies, TV always showed an intelligent Black person and a White racist as a stupid buffoon. Look at "love thy Neighbour" and "Rising Damp". Not exactly a true representation of life, more like propaganda. Today, all we are getting is an exaggeration of the number of racists by counting all the foreigners who post on social media. The analysis of posters seems to suggest that 1 in a thousand are British. Why isn't this being highlighted? The players have stated they are taking the knee to oppose racism - not one of them have said they are doing it for other reasons. Several posters on here have stated that people are booing the players taking the knee because of the association with extreme political views. Its nothing to do do with me having psychic powers. Are you saying people are booing the players because they think it's all part of some decades old media campaign to portray all white British people as pig ignorant racists? Those shows had one white character in there to lampoon racism but every other white character wasn't racist. Those shows didn't portray all white British people as racist - in fact they did exactly the opposite. If there has been a concerted media campaign to expose and hound out racism then great - it should have no place to hide. The only people who should feel worried by that are pig ignorant racists. And fortunately as you say they are in the minority. However they are still out there being protected by people who won't call it out for what it is.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 19, 2021 12:36:49 GMT
I think what would be really helpful, is if people would draw breath, take a step back and consider, what actually happened and look at the sequence of events that led to where we are today. Maintaining entrenched, polarized positions, without doing so, is just going to see the debate continue to go round in circles. The first time any footballers in this country took the knee was prior to the opening game of last season, Aston Villa v Sheffield Utd. All 22 players had their names removed from their shirts and had them replaced by support for the Black Lives Matter movement. news.sky.com/story/black-lives-matter-all-22-players-and-referee-take-a-knee-before-kick-off-as-premier-league-returns-12008964"All 22 players and the referee "took a knee" in support of the Black Lives Matter movement as the first Premier League match since lockdown got under way at Villa Park.It marked the league's endorsement of the international protest campaign sparked by the death last month of George Floyd, a black man, at the hands of Minneapolis police officers. Aston Villa released a statement, which read: "Aston Villa and Sheffield United were proud to stand in solidarity with the actions of the players and coaching staff of both football clubs during the first ten seconds of tonight's Premier League fixture, expressing our collective support for the Black Lives Matter movement."
If we remember, this was an organic movement that spread across all the clubs over a period of time. If I recall, Burnley were the last club to get on board with it but it was far from collectively co-ordinated from the get go. This story was reported across all media platforms at the time and was continued to be reported, as more and more players came out in support of the Black Lives Matter movement, at one point, every player swapped their names for the Black Lives Matter movement. Indeed six months after they started doing it Harry Kane reiterated the reason for doing it ... www.firstpost.com/sports/premier-league-players-should-keep-taking-knee-in-support-of-black-lives-matter-says-tottenhams-harry-kane-9073951.html"Obviously we have done a lot with Black Lives Matter and taking the knee before games.I hear people talking about taking the knee and whether we should still be doing it, and for me I think we should."In my opinion, a whole bunch of factors led to something of a perfect storm. Covid had created a vacuum, meaning that this gesture was taking place in empty stadiums. If Covid hadn't have happened and they had started taking the knee in front of capacity crowds, I genuinely believe that taking the knee would have been over within two or three weeks, as the booing would have been deafening and would have led to considered discourse around who the Black Lives Matter movement were, what they stood for and what their agenda was. Thing is, nobody at the clubs or any of the players themselves or their representatives actually stopped to check what it was all about. And there wasn't anybody in the media who was going to challenge it either, to have done so, would have to in effect, written your resignation letter. And once it became apparent what BLM were all about, it was too late, they'd been doing it for months and if they stopped doing it now, it would look like they had given in to the 'racists', so they decided to try and change the narrative and now suggest that they weren't actually doing it to support BLM but as a gesture against not only racism but all discrimination. And that's the narrative they're still running with today but unfortunately that one isn't going to wash either. How on earth can they suggest they're making a stand against all discrimination, when we, as a nation, are about to compete in a tournament where it is illegal to be a homosexual and it is punishable by death if you are a Muslim? It's utterly absurd. I absolutely abhor discrimination in every form but we really need to create some context and perspective here, surely sending out a national team to compete in a country where the LBGT community is persecuted at state level is far, far worse than some lonely teenage prick sitting in his bedroom in Kansas knocking out racist tweets to some of the most privileged men ever to walk the earth? So what can the players do if they really want stand up against all forms of discrimination? They can boycott Twitter and Instagram for a start, not for a token one weekend gesture but indefinitely. South Africa was the pariah of the sports and entertainment world for 30 years but in the end, the boycotts brought apartheid to an end. We know that boycott's work. Thing is, the player's sponsors won't be happy if they were to do that for any length of time because it would seriously reduce the player's profile. Talking of sponsors, the players can delve into how clean the companies are who sponsor them (when it comes to discrimination in the factories) and if necessary - reject the sponsorship. They can boycott the Qatar world cup and if they're not prepared to do that, at least stand across the pitch before kick-off and link arms together in an act of solidarity with the LBGT community in Qatar - not sure how that will go down with FIFA mind. I genuinely think that from the beginning, the players motives were made entirely with good conscience and if they had realised at the beginning what the BLM movement stood for, then they wouldn't have been so vocal in their support for it but to pretend that isn't what happened is pretty disingenuous, they did and it has to be owned. Ultimately, they finally did realise what they were representing but really, rather than attempting to change the narrative, they should have (imo) just stopped the gesture, ultimately it would have been far more dignified and if they did want to continue making a stand, they should have moved on to something else.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Jul 19, 2021 12:48:17 GMT
I think what would be really helpful, is if people would draw breath, take a step back and consider, what actually happened and look at the sequence of events that led to where we are today. Maintaining entrenched, polarized positions, without doing so, is just going to see the debate continue to go round in circles. The first time any footballers in this country took the knee was prior to the opening game of last season, Aston Villa v Sheffield Utd. All 22 players had their names removed from their shirts and had them replaced by support for the Black Lives Matter movement. news.sky.com/story/black-lives-matter-all-22-players-and-referee-take-a-knee-before-kick-off-as-premier-league-returns-12008964"All 22 players and the referee "took a knee" in support of the Black Lives Matter movement as the first Premier League match since lockdown got under way at Villa Park.It marked the league's endorsement of the international protest campaign sparked by the death last month of George Floyd, a black man, at the hands of Minneapolis police officers. Aston Villa released a statement, which read: "Aston Villa and Sheffield United were proud to stand in solidarity with the actions of the players and coaching staff of both football clubs during the first ten seconds of tonight's Premier League fixture, expressing our collective support for the Black Lives Matter movement."
If we remember, this was an organic movement that spread across all the clubs over a period of time. If I recall, Burnley were the last club to get on board with it but it was far from collectively co-ordinated from the get go. This story was reported across all media platforms at the time and was continued to be reported, as more and more players came out in support of the Black Lives Matter movement, at one point, every player swapped their names for the Black Lives Matter movement. Indeed six months after they started doing it Harry Kane reiterated the reason for doing it ... www.firstpost.com/sports/premier-league-players-should-keep-taking-knee-in-support-of-black-lives-matter-says-tottenhams-harry-kane-9073951.html"Obviously we have done a lot with Black Lives Matter and taking the knee before games.I hear people talking about taking the knee and whether we should still be doing it, and for me I think we should."In my opinion, a whole bunch of factors led to something of a perfect storm. Covid had created a vacuum, meaning that this gesture was taking place in empty stadiums. If Covid hadn't have happened and they had started taking the knee in front of capacity crowds, I genuinely believe that taking the knee would have been over within two or three weeks, as the booing would have been deafening and would have led to considered discourse around who the Black Lives Matter movement were, what they stood for and what their agenda was. Thing is, nobody at the clubs or any of the players themselves or their representatives actually stopped to check what it was all about. And there wasn't anybody in the media who was going to challenge it either, to have done so, would have to in effect, written your resignation letter. And once it became apparent what BLM were all about, it was too late, they'd been doing it for months and if they stopped doing it now, it would look like they had given in to the 'racists', so they decided to try and change the narrative and now suggest that they weren't actually doing it to support BLM but as a gesture against not only racism but all discrimination. And that's what the narrative they're still running with today but unfortunately that one isn't going to wash either. How on earth can they suggest they're making a stand against all discrimination, when we, as a nation, are about to compete in a tournament where it is illegal to be a homosexual and it is punishable by death if you are a Muslim? It's utterly absurd. I absolutely abhor discrimination in every form but we really need to create some context and perspective here, surely sending out a national team to compete in a country where the LBGT community is persecuted at state level is far, far worse than some lonely teenage prick sitting in his bedroom in Kansas knocking out racist tweets to some of the most privileged men ever to walk the earth? So what can the players do if they really want stand up against all forms of discrimination? They can boycott Twitter and Instagram for a start, not for a token one weekend gesture but indefinitely. South Africa was the pariah of the sports and entertainment world for 30 years but in the end the boycotts brought apartheid to an end. We know that boycott's work. Thing is, the player's sponsors won't be happy if they were to do that for any length of time because it would seriously reduce the player's profile. Talking of sponsors, the players can delve into how clean the companies are who sponsor them (when it comes to discrimination in the factories) and if necessary - reject the sponsorship. They can boycott the Qatar world cup and if they're not prepared to do that, at least stand across the pitch before kick-off and link arms together in an act of solidarity with LBGT community in Qatar - not sure how that will go down with FIFA mind. I genuinely think that from the beginning, the players motives were made entirely in good conscious and if they had realised at the beginning what the BLM movement stood for then they would have been so vocal in their support for it but to pretend that isn't what happened is pretty disingenuous, it did and it has to be owned. Ultimately, they finally did realise what they representing but really, rather than attempting to change the narrative, they should have (imo) just stopped the gesture, ultimately it would have been far more dignified and if they did want to continue making a stand, they should have moved on to something else. What are BLM all about then just out of interest mate?
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Post by CBUFAWKIPWH on Jul 19, 2021 13:01:53 GMT
Well said.
I agree with you entirely about Qatar and the lack of criticism and opposition from within football is damning. You are also correct in pointing out the roots of taking the knee and the BLM movement and I get how the politics might muddy the gesture.
However the core reason that footballers are taking the knee is opposition to racism and booing them for the baggage is still disrespectful of what they are trying to do.
Perhaps the players need to ditch the baggage and adopt a gesture that opposes all forms of discrimination. If it explicitly references the abuses going on in Qatar, embarresses the footballing authorities and pisses of the Qatar government even better.
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Post by cobhamstokey on Jul 19, 2021 13:10:39 GMT
I think what would be really helpful, is if people would draw breath, take a step back and consider, what actually happened and look at the sequence of events that led to where we are today. Maintaining entrenched, polarized positions, without doing so, is just going to see the debate continue to go round in circles. The first time any footballers in this country took the knee was prior to the opening game of last season, Aston Villa v Sheffield Utd. All 22 players had their names removed from their shirts and had them replaced by support for the Black Lives Matter movement. news.sky.com/story/black-lives-matter-all-22-players-and-referee-take-a-knee-before-kick-off-as-premier-league-returns-12008964"All 22 players and the referee "took a knee" in support of the Black Lives Matter movement as the first Premier League match since lockdown got under way at Villa Park.It marked the league's endorsement of the international protest campaign sparked by the death last month of George Floyd, a black man, at the hands of Minneapolis police officers. Aston Villa released a statement, which read: "Aston Villa and Sheffield United were proud to stand in solidarity with the actions of the players and coaching staff of both football clubs during the first ten seconds of tonight's Premier League fixture, expressing our collective support for the Black Lives Matter movement."
If we remember, this was an organic movement that spread across all the clubs over a period of time. If I recall, Burnley were the last club to get on board with it but it was far from collectively co-ordinated from the get go. This story was reported across all media platforms at the time and was continued to be reported, as more and more players came out in support of the Black Lives Matter movement, at one point, every player swapped their names for the Black Lives Matter movement. Indeed six months after they started doing it Harry Kane reiterated the reason for doing it ... www.firstpost.com/sports/premier-league-players-should-keep-taking-knee-in-support-of-black-lives-matter-says-tottenhams-harry-kane-9073951.html"Obviously we have done a lot with Black Lives Matter and taking the knee before games.I hear people talking about taking the knee and whether we should still be doing it, and for me I think we should."In my opinion, a whole bunch of factors led to something of a perfect storm. Covid had created a vacuum, meaning that this gesture was taking place in empty stadiums. If Covid hadn't have happened and they had started taking the knee in front of capacity crowds, I genuinely believe that taking the knee would have been over within two or three weeks, as the booing would have been deafening and would have led to considered discourse around who the Black Lives Matter movement were, what they stood for and what their agenda was. Thing is, nobody at the clubs or any of the players themselves or their representatives actually stopped to check what it was all about. And there wasn't anybody in the media who was going to challenge it either, to have done so, would have to in effect, written your resignation letter. And once it became apparent what BLM were all about, it was too late, they'd been doing it for months and if they stopped doing it now, it would look like they had given in to the 'racists', so they decided to try and change the narrative and now suggest that they weren't actually doing it to support BLM but as a gesture against not only racism but all discrimination. And that's what the narrative they're still running with today but unfortunately that one isn't going to wash either. How on earth can they suggest they're making a stand against all discrimination, when we, as a nation, are about to compete in a tournament where it is illegal to be a homosexual and it is punishable by death if you are a Muslim? It's utterly absurd. I absolutely abhor discrimination in every form but we really need to create some context and perspective here, surely sending out a national team to compete in a country where the LBGT community is persecuted at state level is far, far worse than some lonely teenage prick sitting in his bedroom in Kansas knocking out racist tweets to some of the most privileged men ever to walk the earth? So what can the players do if they really want stand up against all forms of discrimination? They can boycott Twitter and Instagram for a start, not for a token one weekend gesture but indefinitely. South Africa was the pariah of the sports and entertainment world for 30 years but in the end the boycotts brought apartheid to an end. We know that boycott's work. Thing is, the player's sponsors won't be happy if they were to do that for any length of time because it would seriously reduce the player's profile. Talking of sponsors, the players can delve into how clean the companies are who sponsor them (when it comes to discrimination in the factories) and if necessary - reject the sponsorship. They can boycott the Qatar world cup and if they're not prepared to do that, at least stand across the pitch before kick-off and link arms together in an act of solidarity with LBGT community in Qatar - not sure how that will go down with FIFA mind. I genuinely think that from the beginning, the players motives were made entirely in good conscious and if they had realised at the beginning what the BLM movement stood for then they would have been so vocal in their support for it but to pretend that isn't what happened is pretty disingenuous, it did and it has to be owned. Ultimately, they finally did realise what they representing but really, rather than attempting to change the narrative, they should have (imo) just stopped the gesture, ultimately it would have been far more dignified and if they did want to continue making a stand, they should have moved on to something else. What are BLM all about then just out of interest mate? I think part of the problem is that everyone has a djifferent take on them. What’s yours?
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