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Post by Boothen on Sept 22, 2021 14:47:42 GMT
Wycombe Wanderers could launch legal action against relegation after Derby administration www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58622433Hope they do, and I hope they fucking win too because Derby, or rather their owner, has been dodgy as fuck.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 22, 2021 15:17:37 GMT
Wycombe Wanderers could launch legal action against relegation after Derby administration www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58622433Hope they do, and I hope they fucking win too because Derby, or rather their owner, has been dodgy as fuck. Any legal claim they have is over the points deduction for the accounting stuff as they can argue it should have been applied last season, any claim re the admin is a waste of time they werent in admin last season so no points deduction, not sure they have much of a legal leg to stand on for the accounting stuff either really, they signed up for the efl rules that this punishment process is following, they are of course right to be royally pissed off but not sure they will get anywhere.
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Post by heworksardtho on Sept 22, 2021 15:20:39 GMT
Still think they are good enough to stay up this season
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Post by lordb on Sept 22, 2021 15:29:36 GMT
Still think they are good enough to stay up this season Maybe with a 12 point deduction...maybe ... But with another 9 point deduction to come, no chance
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Post by boothenesque on Sept 22, 2021 15:38:59 GMT
Tough on Wycombe. Derby committed these offences over the last so many years and were allowed to keep a lid on it to see out last season, stay up, take the punishment this season. They still get their punishment but Wycombe didn't do anything wrong and were relegated in favour of keeping a club that broke the rules, law perhaps, in the Championship in favour of Wycombe that abided by the rules. Isn't that unfair bias towards Derby and against Wycombe?
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Post by march4 on Sept 22, 2021 15:43:24 GMT
Interesting if the points reduction results in Derby being relegated and the club that are consequently saved are Forest
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Post by Scouse on Sept 22, 2021 16:04:27 GMT
One of their immediate issues will be to ensure they continue to pay the players .. as that can also result in a points deduction / transfer embargo .. don’t think going into administration nullifies further potential penalties for breaching those rules
Wycombe’s legal challenge if it comes will be interesting in exactly what it is and who if anyone it’s brought against ..I’m not sure who they’d go after and what compensation they’d seek TBH
Given the various question marks around their posting of accounts be interesting if there’s any serious ramifications, if any of the companies have been trading illegally , ie when insolvent viable , my understanding is it’s a legal requirement ( not a football one ) for a company director to ensure a company doesn’t trade whilst insolvent .. though that’s based on my ONC and GCE in principles of English law from over 45 years back 🤪
I say interesting ..in the sense of being a warning to others .. for all concerned at both Derby and indeed Wycombe especially their fans and employees paid a normal wage it’s of course far more serious than other clubs fans picking over the bones of the situation like vultures of the Serengeti
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Post by questionable on Sept 22, 2021 16:12:22 GMT
What about the other 9 for their previous 'crimes?' Is that just being forgotten about? ' thats to follow Can’t they just put them on +1 and award us the three points they took off us, makes more sense to me.
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Post by heworksardtho on Sept 22, 2021 16:22:59 GMT
Still think they are good enough to stay up this season Maybe with a 12 point deduction...maybe ... But with another 9 point deduction to come, no chance You never know mate , he’s not lost the dressing room and they are playing for him as against us , stranger things have happened and there’s still plenty of games left
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 22, 2021 16:34:58 GMT
One of their immediate issues will be to ensure they continue to pay the players .. as that can also result in a points deduction / transfer embargo .. don’t think going into administration nullifies further potential penalties for breaching those rules Wycombe’s legal challenge if it comes will be interesting in exactly what it is and who if anyone it’s brought against ..I’m not sure who they’d go after and what compensation they’d seek TBH Given the various question marks around their posting of accounts be interesting if there’s any serious ramifications, if any of the companies have been trading illegally , ie when insolvent viable , my understanding is it’s a legal requirement ( not a football one ) for a company director to ensure a company doesn’t trade whilst insolvent .. though that’s based on my ONC and GCE in principles of English law from over 45 years back 🤪 I say interesting ..in the sense of being a warning to others .. for all concerned at both Derby and indeed Wycombe especially their fans and employees paid a normal wage it’s of course far more serious than other clubs fans picking over the bones of the situation like vultures of the Serengeti The administrators main concern now is to sell the club, they couldn't care less about penalties for non payment of wages if the window was open they would be selling every player they could just to pay the bills / creditors as they did at Wigan its no coincidence Morris waited till the window shut after they signed players to do this which as you mention raises questions over trading while insolvent although the truth is Morris has just decided to stop funding them. He may get some penalties for this like fines or disqualification from being able to be a company director. The accounts provided they were not used to obtain any loans won't generate anything more than late filing penalties at worst, there might have been a problem with the Inland revenue but I think as the accounting amortisation is replaced by tax amortisation and / or because their method results in paying more tax (lower amortisation in earlier years) they will be fine.
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Post by boothenesque on Sept 22, 2021 16:55:24 GMT
s993 Companies Act states that if directors or those employed, knowingly are trading while insolvent then it's a criminal offence that you can be jailed for, Of course rich guys like Morris are afforded the special rules and exemptions for the special people and they tend to be above the law. Mind you he does claim to have lost £200m. You would think that swindle of buying the ground for £80m when only worth £40m, in order to bolster the accounts so as not to post a loss, was potentially fraudulent. But yeh, who do Wycombe take action against? The directors, the EFL. If someone is trading while insolvent it is fraudulent trading, which would go to Trading Standards or the police. But people like Morris will be in the funny handshake gang and it tends to be deemed not in the public interest to prosecute these pillars of the community.
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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 22, 2021 17:50:13 GMT
The Athletic were suggesting it was about 50-50 whether it'd result in liquidation.
Seems about as bleak as it gets
Some Derby fans discussing the whole thing here (from about 10 minutes in)
They seem to be taking the 21 points as read, with possibly another 3 if they can't pay the wages in the short-term which has got to be in real doubt.
With a fair chance of another 15 next season if they don't pay 25% of their debts to non-secured creditors, and a real chance of liquidation with the main problem being the £30m tax bill.
Best case scenario seems to be relegation, but continuing to exist
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Post by scfcno1fan on Sept 22, 2021 18:25:52 GMT
Administration staves of legal action with the moratorium.
And helps with current debts.
However, offset that with the administration fees, which are astronomical.
I used to work in corporate insolvency.
It’s an industry which is a disease on this country.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 22, 2021 18:32:37 GMT
One of their immediate issues will be to ensure they continue to pay the players .. as that can also result in a points deduction / transfer embargo .. don’t think going into administration nullifies further potential penalties for breaching those rules Wycombe’s legal challenge if it comes will be interesting in exactly what it is and who if anyone it’s brought against ..I’m not sure who they’d go after and what compensation they’d seek TBH Given the various question marks around their posting of accounts be interesting if there’s any serious ramifications, if any of the companies have been trading illegally , ie when insolvent viable , my understanding is it’s a legal requirement ( not a football one ) for a company director to ensure a company doesn’t trade whilst insolvent .. though that’s based on my ONC and GCE in principles of English law from over 45 years back 🤪 I say interesting ..in the sense of being a warning to others .. for all concerned at both Derby and indeed Wycombe especially their fans and employees paid a normal wage it’s of course far more serious than other clubs fans picking over the bones of the situation like vultures of the Serengeti Nice untended pun I guess.
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Post by lordb on Sept 22, 2021 18:38:37 GMT
Maybe with a 12 point deduction...maybe ... But with another 9 point deduction to come, no chance You never know mate , he’s not lost the dressing room and they are playing for him as against us , stranger things have happened and there’s still plenty of games left No one has overcome a 21 point deduction 12 points, they have a chance Plus come January any of their players can leave for buttons with no one coming in
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Sept 22, 2021 18:42:32 GMT
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 22, 2021 20:13:16 GMT
s993 Companies Act states that if directors or those employed, knowingly are trading while insolvent then it's a criminal offence that you can be jailed for, Of course rich guys like Morris are afforded the special rules and exemptions for the special people and they tend to be above the law. Mind you he does claim to have lost £200m. You would think that swindle of buying the ground for £80m when only worth £40m, in order to bolster the accounts so as not to post a loss, was potentially fraudulent. But yeh, who do Wycombe take action against? The directors, the EFL. If someone is trading while insolvent it is fraudulent trading, which would go to Trading Standards or the police. But people like Morris will be in the funny handshake gang and it tends to be deemed not in the public interest to prosecute these pillars of the community. While Morris was writing out the cheques they were not insolvent, the £30m tax bill is probably the reason he pulled his funding as that would have to be paid + the £2m he claimed to be putting in every month. As for the ground nothing fradulent there he has to have paid the money (or vast majority) over from his other company to derby otherwise the admin would be coming after him for the £80m or whatever which would defeat the object of going into admin for him.
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Post by wuzza on Sept 22, 2021 20:19:56 GMT
Blimey it’s a free for all isn’t it ! Think I might try slapping in a claim for the tenner I lost because of Saturdays result ! (Didn’t think it possible but I’m beginning to feel a twinge of sympathy for them)
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 22, 2021 21:05:27 GMT
The Athletic were suggesting it was about 50-50 whether it'd result in liquidation. Seems about as bleak as it gets Some Derby fans discussing the whole thing here (from about 10 minutes in) They seem to be taking the 21 points as read, with possibly another 3 if they can't pay the wages in the short-term which has got to be in real doubt. With a fair chance of another 15 next season if they don't pay 25% of their debts to non-secured creditors, and a real chance of liquidation with the main problem being the £30m tax bill. Best case scenario seems to be relegation, but continuing to exist I just read that Athletic article they are in a much much worse position than I thought £60m just to pay off the debts to stand still before you even try and rebuild, even paying that off in instalments I can't see who would touch them at that price even if I was a derby fan and had the money you would be better starting off in non league again and spending the £60m building up from there.
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Post by innocentbystander on Sept 22, 2021 21:26:39 GMT
How do you make a small fortune? Start with a large fortune and buy a football club.
Why does anyone with the brains to make a lot of money then buy a football club?
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Post by FullerMagic on Sept 22, 2021 21:37:09 GMT
It seems very scary stuff for Derby fans.. theathletic.com/2837909/2021/09/21/derbys-admin-bomb-what-now-for-players-rooney-and-the-club-can-it-survive/At times like these, when the sky is on fire and cracks are opening underneath you, it is important to remember that things could be worse and history suggests you will trade solvently again. But right now, the news is bleak for everybody associated with Derby County and there is no point sugarcoating it. Since Friday night’s memo about the coming apocalypse, when Derby announced the club and all the subsidiary companies intended to appoint administrators, The Athletic has been speaking to people with knowledge of the club’s financial position and they have not been very upbeat. “It’s 50/50 they get liquidated,” said one source, while another said: “I can’t see how they get out of this — they’re fucked.” The picture they painted in such depressing tones was one of a club that is worth less than nothing. Much less. They said any prospective buyer would need to shell out more than £50 million simply clearing Derby’s debts before spending a penny on rebuilding the club and putting a competitive team on the park. This is because the club has football creditors, who must be paid up to £10 million in full, as well as secured debt of £20 million owed to an American private equity firm and a tax bill of almost £30 million. Derby declined to comment when contacted by The Athletic. Until late last year, that last bill would have not have been such a cause for alarm to a bidder as it would have been added to the pile of unsecured debt and paid off with pennies in the pound. HM Revenue and Customs has been complaining about that for years and the government’s post-pandemic need for rebalancing its books meant somebody in power finally heard the taxman’s pleas. The Finance Act 2020 gave tax debt preferential status in insolvency cases. At least two-thirds of Derby’s tax arrears must now be settled in full, just like the money they still owe to other football clubs.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 22, 2021 21:49:15 GMT
It seems very scary stuff for Derby fans.. theathletic.com/2837909/2021/09/21/derbys-admin-bomb-what-now-for-players-rooney-and-the-club-can-it-survive/At times like these, when the sky is on fire and cracks are opening underneath you, it is important to remember that things could be worse and history suggests you will trade solvently again. But right now, the news is bleak for everybody associated with Derby County and there is no point sugarcoating it. Since Friday night’s memo about the coming apocalypse, when Derby announced the club and all the subsidiary companies intended to appoint administrators, The Athletic has been speaking to people with knowledge of the club’s financial position and they have not been very upbeat. “It’s 50/50 they get liquidated,” said one source, while another said: “I can’t see how they get out of this — they’re fucked.” The picture they painted in such depressing tones was one of a club that is worth less than nothing. Much less. They said any prospective buyer would need to shell out more than £50 million simply clearing Derby’s debts before spending a penny on rebuilding the club and putting a competitive team on the park. This is because the club has football creditors, who must be paid up to £10 million in full, as well as secured debt of £20 million owed to an American private equity firm and a tax bill of almost £30 million. Derby declined to comment when contacted by The Athletic. Until late last year, that last bill would have not have been such a cause for alarm to a bidder as it would have been added to the pile of unsecured debt and paid off with pennies in the pound. HM Revenue and Customs has been complaining about that for years and the government’s post-pandemic need for rebalancing its books meant somebody in power finally heard the taxman’s pleas. The Finance Act 2020 gave tax debt preferential status in insolvency cases. At least two-thirds of Derby’s tax arrears must now be settled in full, just like the money they still owe to other football clubs. Morris still has the money though doesn't he ? Yeah at the end of it he might be worth £150m instead of £200m or £50m instead of £100m if he paid it all off but if they do go bump it's not going to be a nice experience for him and his family still living locally, I'd pay it off and put a clause in the sale that if they get into the Premier he gets £5m or £10m a season back or something.
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Post by Gob Bluth on Sept 22, 2021 21:52:05 GMT
It seems very scary stuff for Derby fans.. theathletic.com/2837909/2021/09/21/derbys-admin-bomb-what-now-for-players-rooney-and-the-club-can-it-survive/At times like these, when the sky is on fire and cracks are opening underneath you, it is important to remember that things could be worse and history suggests you will trade solvently again. But right now, the news is bleak for everybody associated with Derby County and there is no point sugarcoating it. Since Friday night’s memo about the coming apocalypse, when Derby announced the club and all the subsidiary companies intended to appoint administrators, The Athletic has been speaking to people with knowledge of the club’s financial position and they have not been very upbeat. “It’s 50/50 they get liquidated,” said one source, while another said: “I can’t see how they get out of this — they’re fucked.” The picture they painted in such depressing tones was one of a club that is worth less than nothing. Much less. They said any prospective buyer would need to shell out more than £50 million simply clearing Derby’s debts before spending a penny on rebuilding the club and putting a competitive team on the park. This is because the club has football creditors, who must be paid up to £10 million in full, as well as secured debt of £20 million owed to an American private equity firm and a tax bill of almost £30 million. Derby declined to comment when contacted by The Athletic. Until late last year, that last bill would have not have been such a cause for alarm to a bidder as it would have been added to the pile of unsecured debt and paid off with pennies in the pound. HM Revenue and Customs has been complaining about that for years and the government’s post-pandemic need for rebalancing its books meant somebody in power finally heard the taxman’s pleas. The Finance Act 2020 gave tax debt preferential status in insolvency cases. At least two-thirds of Derby’s tax arrears must now be settled in full, just like the money they still owe to other football clubs. Fantastic news re the commitment to pay 20m of the 30m owed. Maybe Mel can finally step in and do something good and clear the debts needed to stave off liquidation. Does anyone know if the transfer window is opened to allow the administrators to sell the players? If there was ever a way to generate more cash for a player’s sale it’s to do it when you can’t buy anyone else and allow their immediate registration.
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Post by Gob Bluth on Sept 22, 2021 21:53:28 GMT
It seems very scary stuff for Derby fans.. theathletic.com/2837909/2021/09/21/derbys-admin-bomb-what-now-for-players-rooney-and-the-club-can-it-survive/At times like these, when the sky is on fire and cracks are opening underneath you, it is important to remember that things could be worse and history suggests you will trade solvently again. But right now, the news is bleak for everybody associated with Derby County and there is no point sugarcoating it. Since Friday night’s memo about the coming apocalypse, when Derby announced the club and all the subsidiary companies intended to appoint administrators, The Athletic has been speaking to people with knowledge of the club’s financial position and they have not been very upbeat. “It’s 50/50 they get liquidated,” said one source, while another said: “I can’t see how they get out of this — they’re fucked.” The picture they painted in such depressing tones was one of a club that is worth less than nothing. Much less. They said any prospective buyer would need to shell out more than £50 million simply clearing Derby’s debts before spending a penny on rebuilding the club and putting a competitive team on the park. This is because the club has football creditors, who must be paid up to £10 million in full, as well as secured debt of £20 million owed to an American private equity firm and a tax bill of almost £30 million. Derby declined to comment when contacted by The Athletic. Until late last year, that last bill would have not have been such a cause for alarm to a bidder as it would have been added to the pile of unsecured debt and paid off with pennies in the pound. HM Revenue and Customs has been complaining about that for years and the government’s post-pandemic need for rebalancing its books meant somebody in power finally heard the taxman’s pleas. The Finance Act 2020 gave tax debt preferential status in insolvency cases. At least two-thirds of Derby’s tax arrears must now be settled in full, just like the money they still owe to other football clubs. Morris still has the money though doesn't he ? Yeah at the end of it he might be worth £150m instead of £200m or £50m instead of £100m if he paid it all off but if they do go bump it's not going to be a nice experience for him and his family still living locally, I'd pay it off and put a clause in the sale that if they get into the Premier he gets £5m or £10m a season back or something. He could probably start by giving them their stadium back for free.
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Post by march4 on Sept 22, 2021 21:53:57 GMT
You never know mate , he’s not lost the dressing room and they are playing for him as against us , stranger things have happened and there’s still plenty of games left No one has overcome a 21 point deduction 12 points, they have a chance Plus come January any of their players can leave for buttons with no one coming in Can’t their academy players leave straight away?
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 22, 2021 21:59:15 GMT
Morris still has the money though doesn't he ? Yeah at the end of it he might be worth £150m instead of £200m or £50m instead of £100m if he paid it all off but if they do go bump it's not going to be a nice experience for him and his family still living locally, I'd pay it off and put a clause in the sale that if they get into the Premier he gets £5m or £10m a season back or something. He could probably start by giving them their stadium back for free. I think on the podcast he pretty much said he was going to do that.
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 22, 2021 22:02:16 GMT
No one has overcome a 21 point deduction 12 points, they have a chance Plus come January any of their players can leave for buttons with no one coming in Can’t their academy players leave straight away? They already sold anyone who was any good like the 16 Yr old Gordon who played for Liverpool last night, administrators might keep what's left they could be the first time anything sellable will be sold as soon as window opens and they won't renew senior players contracts.
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Post by dirtclod on Sept 22, 2021 22:03:52 GMT
Looks like they could end up in League 2 within 2 years if all those penalties happen. Unless some billionaire can rig up a tax-dodge by buying them and flushing 100 million down the loo...
They may have to phoenix. Come back as The Rammed
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Post by march4 on Sept 22, 2021 22:11:04 GMT
Can’t their academy players leave straight away? They already sold anyone who was any good like the 16 Yr old Gordon who played for Liverpool last night, administrators might keep what's left they could be the first time anything sellable will be sold as soon as window opens and they won't renew senior players contracts. I always thought a consequence of going into administration was losing the license for your academy. Have I got that wrong?
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Post by followyoudown on Sept 22, 2021 22:16:01 GMT
They already sold anyone who was any good like the 16 Yr old Gordon who played for Liverpool last night, administrators might keep what's left they could be the first time anything sellable will be sold as soon as window opens and they won't renew senior players contracts. I always thought a consequence of going into administration was losing the license for your academy. Have I got that wrong? I don't know it might be because the administrators have to cut costs so any non essential staff get laid off and they wont pay the money for travel, kit washing etc either.
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