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Post by nonameface on Apr 13, 2021 18:50:45 GMT
Our current position (not going up/ not going down) gives us a valuable resource of playing time to share out, particularly amongst our attacking players from the U23.I totally agree that he doesn't deserve the abuse on here. However you make such a big fuss about his age and age in general, so I would like to draw your attention to the fact that he's only 31, which is an age which is generally seen as the prime of a footballer's years. Also totally agree re the abuse, but I can't agree that 31 is a player's peak age.
About 8 years ago I co-wrote a presentation to Premier League & Championship teams on ther ideal age profile for their squads.
We looked at various key performance indicators and how they changed over a ten year sample of players as they aged.
Generally you could split a squad into three main cohorts.
23 and younger (Young Talents)
24-29 (Peak Age)
29+ (Ageing Veterans)
Strikers tended to peak earlier. (In our sample their kpi's started to decrease relative to their previous age at 27)
Defenders peaked a little later and keepers later still.
Our work has become the standard way of forward planning for future squads.
Young talents replace peak age. Peak age replace ageing vets. Ageing vets retire and recruitment and/or youth system plugs any gaps.
Vokes' league adjusted kpi's have kicked into reverse for most of his time here.
your work is spot on Tachyon. Do you publish anything regularly on a website (stoke or general football) for the public, or is it all commercial for clubs?
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Post by tachyon on Apr 13, 2021 19:08:01 GMT
Someone forgot to tell that to our managers, all five of them, because they have specialised in signing players at 30 or above. They also forgot to tell it to Zlatan, Ronaldo & Messi and countless others. Nice try, but.... 1) Survivor bias. 2) Longitudinal study.
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Post by wakefieldstokie on Apr 13, 2021 19:15:17 GMT
First things first, I don't intend for this to be a Sam Vokes bashing thread like the previous one. I'm genuinely trying to get to the bottom of why our manager, who is no idiot, consistently turns to Sam Vokes. Not only that, but he seems to be quite satisfied by his contribution, evidenced by both his continued appearances and the words of the man himself. However, I cannot for the life of me see what he offers. He has played 24 league games this season, 19 as a substitute. In those games, he has scored 0 goals with an xG rating of 2.76, the bulk of which are presumably the point blank header and penalty that he missed. In those 24 games, he has had 22 shots. He failed to take a single shot in twelve of those games. He has no assists, with a xA value of 0.10. We won in one of his five starts (Wycombe away). In his start away at Swansea, he did absolutely nothing in 90 minutes except win eight headers. In his time on the pitch, we've scored five goals, conceded 11 and his overall impact in terms of points has been equivalent to a loss of 3 points in his time on the pitch. In twenty of those games, there was no change in the outcome (winning/drawing/losing) between him coming onto the pitch and leaving the pitch. I understand that these one-off stats can potentially mean nothing compared to a player's contribution to a team - Mama Sidibe's stats must have been pretty unimpressive but he was absolutely key to our promotion-winning system - but I can't see anything that he offers more subjectively. I know that television is absolutely hopeless for analysing a game of football because you can't see two-thirds of the pitch, but he just doesn't seem to have any impact, good or bad. He doesn't add impetus, put us on the front foot or add some energy to our pressing game. He comes on and nothing happens. However, I know that our manager isn't an idiot and he must see something that Sam Vokes does when he's on the pitch, so what does he actually do? Are there any of the clever analyst types who can tell me what I'm missing? Again, for emphasis, it's a genuine question and I don't want to just trash Vokes mindlessly. How dare you, his attitude is fantastic. You seriously expect a striker to score goals, make assists, hold up the ball nicely and possibly do more than one of those things? Youre crazy, let’s keep new talent off the pitch and persist with Sam, he’ll come good one year
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 19:55:13 GMT
They also forgot to tell it to Zlatan, Ronaldo & Messi and countless others. Nice try, but.... 1) Survivor bias. 2) Longitudinal study. Except I dislike Zlatan and Ronaldo immensely. Leo's ok. he just need to prove it on a wet, windy etc. Second point - you've lost me.
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Post by tachyon on Apr 13, 2021 21:05:12 GMT
your work is spot on Tachyon. Do you publish anything regularly on a website (stoke or general football) for the public, or is it all commercial for clubs? cheers, mate Around 600 of my articles are on this blog. I currently build statistical player & team models for a data supplier. See the tag at the bottom of this post.
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Post by tachyon on Apr 13, 2021 21:12:00 GMT
Nice try, but.... 1) Survivor bias. 2) Longitudinal study. Except I dislike Zlatan and Ronaldo immensely. Leo's ok. he just need to prove it on a wet, windy etc. Second point - you've lost me. 2) you compare a player's key performance indicators to those of their younger self. You can still be getting game time at 30+, but be inferior to your younger self. That's decline. 1) you have to count players whose talent has declined so much that they are no longer in the sample or you will characterize an older age group just by those still participating (and they tend to be better than average to start with)
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Post by owdestokie2 on Apr 13, 2021 22:42:20 GMT
IMHO I think people should display their displeasure by directing their comments at/about the manager that signed Vokes and didn’t have the players to deliver quality balls into the box which he could feed off.
I believe Vokes unfortunately joined the wrong club at the wrong time under the wrong manager.
You don’t make over 400 professional appearances, many in the EFL and EPL Championship and represent your country over 60 times if you “can’t” play football.
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hotpot
Youth Player
Posts: 437
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Post by hotpot on Apr 14, 2021 0:54:39 GMT
Pay him off, sell him cheap, just get rid of him.
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Post by PotterLog on Apr 14, 2021 1:36:52 GMT
Not really. His non penalty xG/90 is the same as a starter as it is as a sub. An underwhelming 0.2 NP xG/90. He's an understandably ageing striker who's in decline, one reason you don't give long contracts to older players. But he doesn't deserve the abused heaped on here. He's ok at holding the ball up. We probably should be giving the younger players playing time. Youngster improve with age, but it's confounded by playing experience as well. Simply sitting out playing time while getting older doesn't lead to improvement in itself. You generally start to see improved striker metrics from younger players after around 5 full games worth of playing time at first team level. Our current position (not going up/ not going down) gives us a valuable resource of playing time to share out, particularly amongst our attacking players from the U23. I totally agree that he doesn't deserve the abuse on here. However you make such a big fuss about his age and age in general, so I would like to draw your attention to the fact that he's only 31, which is an age which is generally seen as the prime of a footballer's years. The question though is if you look at Vokes the individual and compare him to Varian or Norton. They have a great appetite for the game and both, but Varian especially, have a speed of turn which is missing from Vokes' game. On the other hand he has a wealth of experience and he's faced plenty of criticism before, a situation the two youngsters don't know about. We don't know how robust they are when the going gets tough, like if they don't score their first goal within a certain timeframe. Just like there's a group of fans eager to see them tried at league level, there will be another group of fans that can't wait to bring them down if at first they don't succeed. It might not be nice to be in their shoes if that happens. Can’t get my head around this 31 peak age thing. For a goalie maybe but outfield players are several years past their peak at 31, pretty much without exception.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 4:03:20 GMT
Pay him off, sell him cheap, just get rid of him. Then who will be the next scapegoat?
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Post by questionable on Apr 14, 2021 16:57:39 GMT
Carpenter who builds wardrobes and obviously runs very slowly and eats tons of pies.
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Post by questionable on Apr 14, 2021 17:03:24 GMT
Why does he keep using him? So I’ve heard we need to play him in a certain amount of games in order to trigger a 5 year contract extension, there’s a number of top clubs here and on the continent monitoring the situation and Scholes is doing his best to fend off their interest.
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Post by bertiestan on Apr 15, 2021 11:07:21 GMT
Ooooh don't get me started on this absolute oxygen thief
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Post by medwaypotter on Apr 15, 2021 11:29:07 GMT
About 3MPH on a good day.
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Post by FranktheRabbit on Apr 15, 2021 12:22:13 GMT
Ooooh don't get me started on this absolute oxygen thief Classy.
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Post by samba :) on Apr 16, 2021 5:55:26 GMT
He’s like a very btec jon parkin
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2021 6:03:15 GMT
He’s like a very btec jon parkin That's actually an insult to Parkin, who cost only 3% of what Vokes cost, and gave us decent service.
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Post by samba :) on Apr 16, 2021 6:15:04 GMT
He’s like a very btec jon parkin That's actually an insult to Parkin, who cost only 3% of what Vokes cost, and gave us decent service. I agree, Much like the btec equivalent of an a-level is far far easier to achieve
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Post by Championship Potter on Apr 16, 2021 6:34:01 GMT
I’ve think tachyon is spot on with his assessment. Look at Brentford’s recruitment - it’s almost solely focused on the 19-24 age bracket. At the time you could see signing the likes of Clucas, McClean and Vokes were going to represent shocking value for the club given their ages and positions.
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Post by bertiestan on Apr 16, 2021 7:35:56 GMT
Ooooh don't get me started on this absolute oxygen thief Classy. Care to add anything?😂
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Apr 16, 2021 8:58:54 GMT
I think he would have trouble scoring against a woman's football team.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 17, 2021 13:33:37 GMT
Why in Gods name is he using him?
That today was woeful from him. Brings the ball, has loads of time, looks for a pass and passes it straight to a PNE player on the edge of the box.
There is no excuse to use him. None.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Apr 17, 2021 16:45:34 GMT
Why in Gods name is he using him? That today was woeful from him. Brings the ball, has loads of time, looks for a pass and passes it straight to a PNE player on the edge of the box. There is no excuse to use him. None. I'm embarrassed for him these days
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Apr 18, 2021 8:00:50 GMT
What does he do? He makes the other players look better than they are.
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Post by thevoid on Apr 18, 2021 10:27:43 GMT
If he was a horse he'd have been sent to the glue factory months ago.
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Post by TinkerT on Apr 18, 2021 10:59:24 GMT
If he was a horse he'd have been sent to the glue factory months ago. If he was running the national he'd be put down before the race started
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Post by jaybee on Apr 21, 2021 21:36:30 GMT
Sadly, we are nowhere nearer in being able to answer the original question .... Serious question: what does Sam Vokes do?
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 21, 2021 21:45:21 GMT
Sadly, we are nowhere nearer in being able to answer the original question .... Serious question: what does Sam Vokes do? Picks up circa £30k a week for training 4 times a week and strolling around the pitch for 20 minutes max. per game, nice work if you can get it ! the man has no shame or morals in my opinion the manager is no better for selecting him week in week out, these charlatans are sucking the life out of the club.
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Post by mickstupp on Apr 21, 2021 21:56:07 GMT
Sadly, we are nowhere nearer in being able to answer the original question .... Serious question: what does Sam Vokes do? Picks up circa £30k a week for training 4 times a week and strolling around the pitch for 20 minutes max. per game, nice work if you can get it ! the man has no shame or morals in my opinion the manager is no better for selecting him week in week out, these charlatans are sucking the life out of the club. How do you suggest we get rid of him? There’s no chance of getting a decent striker in until his wages are off the books?
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Post by ct1 on Apr 21, 2021 21:56:17 GMT
Today? Cushioned header back to their keeper? Commentators 'poor touch from Vokes' ' Vokes trying to do something' useless!!
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