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Post by Olgrligm on Apr 10, 2021 17:14:30 GMT
First things first, I don't intend for this to be a Sam Vokes bashing thread like the previous one. I'm genuinely trying to get to the bottom of why our manager, who is no idiot, consistently turns to Sam Vokes. Not only that, but he seems to be quite satisfied by his contribution, evidenced by both his continued appearances and the words of the man himself. However, I cannot for the life of me see what he offers.
He has played 24 league games this season, 19 as a substitute.
In those games, he has scored 0 goals with an xG rating of 2.76, the bulk of which are presumably the point blank header and penalty that he missed.
In those 24 games, he has had 22 shots. He failed to take a single shot in twelve of those games.
He has no assists, with a xA value of 0.10.
We won in one of his five starts (Wycombe away). In his start away at Swansea, he did absolutely nothing in 90 minutes except win eight headers.
In his time on the pitch, we've scored five goals, conceded 11 and his overall impact in terms of points has been equivalent to a loss of 3 points in his time on the pitch. In twenty of those games, there was no change in the outcome (winning/drawing/losing) between him coming onto the pitch and leaving the pitch.
I understand that these one-off stats can potentially mean nothing compared to a player's contribution to a team - Mama Sidibe's stats must have been pretty unimpressive but he was absolutely key to our promotion-winning system - but I can't see anything that he offers more subjectively. I know that television is absolutely hopeless for analysing a game of football because you can't see two-thirds of the pitch, but he just doesn't seem to have any impact, good or bad. He doesn't add impetus, put us on the front foot or add some energy to our pressing game. He comes on and nothing happens.
However, I know that our manager isn't an idiot and he must see something that Sam Vokes does when he's on the pitch, so what does he actually do? Are there any of the clever analyst types who can tell me what I'm missing?
Again, for emphasis, it's a genuine question and I don't want to just trash Vokes mindlessly.
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Post by robwahlmann on Apr 10, 2021 17:23:38 GMT
First things first, I don't intend for this to be a Sam Vokes bashing thread like the previous one. I'm genuinely trying to get to the bottom of why our manager, who is no idiot, consistently turns to Sam Vokes. Not only that, but he seems to be quite satisfied by his contribution, evidenced by both his continued appearances and the words of the man himself. However, I cannot for the life of me see what he offers. He has played 24 league games this season, 19 as a substitute. In those games, he has scored 0 goals with an xG rating of 2.76, the bulk of which are presumably the point blank header and penalty that he missed. In those 24 games, he has had 22 shots. He failed to take a single shot in twelve of those games. He has no assists, with a xA value of 0.10. We won in one of his five starts (Wycombe away). In his start away at Swansea, he did absolutely nothing in 90 minutes except win eight headers. In his time on the pitch, we've scored five goals, conceded 11 and his overall impact in terms of points has been equivalent to a loss of 3 points in his time on the pitch. In twenty of those games, there was no change in the outcome (winning/drawing/losing) between him coming onto the pitch and leaving the pitch. I understand that these one-off stats can potentially mean nothing compared to a player's contribution to a team - Mama Sidibe's stats must have been pretty unimpressive but he was absolutely key to our promotion-winning system - but I can't see anything that he offers more subjectively. I know that television is absolutely hopeless for analysing a game of football because you can't see two-thirds of the pitch, but he just doesn't seem to have any impact, good or bad. He doesn't add impetus, put us on the front foot or add some energy to our pressing game. He comes on and nothing happens. However, I know that our manager isn't an idiot and he must see something that Sam Vokes does when he's on the pitch, so what does he actually do? Are there any of the clever analyst types who can tell me what I'm missing? Again, for emphasis, it's a genuine question and I don't want to just trash Vokes mindlessly. You could have an opinion of Vokes of course, but wouldn't it be better to have a go at the players who actually played the majority of the game!  |
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Post by expectedtoulouse on Apr 10, 2021 17:25:31 GMT
He isn’t a player which is suited to the way O’Neill sets up the team. He was successful at Wolves and Burnley playing in teams that put crosses in to the box. We only have Smith who is capable of putting in a cross that has a chance of going anywhere near his head.
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Post by Squeekster on Apr 10, 2021 17:27:11 GMT
Well at the end he was speaking to Jutkiewicz so lets hope it was about scoring.
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Post by loosestools on Apr 10, 2021 17:28:32 GMT
He isn’t a player which is suited to the way O’Neill sets up the team. He was successful at Wolves and Burnley playing in teams that put crosses in to the box. We only have Smith who is capable of putting in a cross that has a chance of going anywhere near his head. This is correct. So why does he perceive in playing him? Its doing nobody any good. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 10, 2021 17:28:47 GMT
Why does he keep using him?
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Apr 10, 2021 17:29:57 GMT
Why does he keep using him? Has to be some kind of contract clause |
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Post by prestwichpotter on Apr 10, 2021 17:30:06 GMT
He drains our resources.
He wins a few defensive headers from opposition corners, that is literally the only positive I can think of.....
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Post by loosestools on Apr 10, 2021 17:30:40 GMT
Why does he keep using him? Has to be some kind of contract clause Got to be. |
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Post by expectedtoulouse on Apr 10, 2021 17:33:25 GMT
He isn’t a player which is suited to the way O’Neill sets up the team. He was successful at Wolves and Burnley playing in teams that put crosses in to the box. We only have Smith who is capable of putting in a cross that has a chance of going anywhere near his head. This is correct. So why does he perceive in playing him? Its doing nobody any good. We don’t have anybody else do we. |
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Post by loosestools on Apr 10, 2021 17:35:44 GMT
This is correct. So why does he perceive in playing him? Its doing nobody any good. We don’t have anybody else do we. I actually feel sorry for Sam Vokes, this situation must be destroying the bloke, surely both parties realise this? |
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 10, 2021 17:37:09 GMT
I defended MON bringing him on a while back, just because he was the only other experienced, physical striker we had.
He must have known all along that he's a shadow of the player he was physically, and maybe not even a Football League-standard player at this point.
But he also knew there was no choice of shifting him until the end of his deal and we are probably on the hook for £1.5m-a-year, with no chance of putting him in a 1-man bomb squad for 18 months. Anyone who has seen him play this season, at any level, wouldn't touch him with a barge pole.
So I think you could have made some kind of case while there were no other options and the games were theoretically meaningful.
Now though, there's no excuse at all for ever letting him see the grass.
Norton looks bright and not intimidated. He may or may not have a future at this level - but there's nothing to be gained by seeing Vokes amble around for one second more in these dead rubber games
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Post by werrington on Apr 10, 2021 17:40:47 GMT
Here we go again blaming Vokes ....The tactics are shit yet he continues with the same ones, 3 at the back when 2 down and creating nothing , Vokes is poor yet he continues to use him over others, the same lazy subs with the same lazy tactics ....it’s wank
Vokes has hardly played since Christmas yet others go under the radar why I’ve no fucking idea
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Post by loosestools on Apr 10, 2021 17:40:47 GMT
I defended MON bringing him on a while back, just because he was the only other experienced, physical striker we had. He must have known all along that he's a shadow of the player he was physically, and maybe not even a Football League-standard player at this point. But he also knew there was no choice of shifting him until the end of his deal and we are probably on the hook for £1.5m-a-year, with no chance of putting him in a 1-man bomb squad for 18 months. Anyone who has seen him play this season, at any level, wouldn't touch him with a barge pole. So I think you could have made some kind of case while there were no other options and the games were theoretically meaningful. Now though, there's no excuse at all for ever letting him see the grass. Norton looks bright and not intimidated. He may or may not have a future at this level - but there's nothing to be gained by seeing Vokes amble around for one second more in these dead rubber games Its cruel for the man. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 17:41:54 GMT
Why does Fletcher never get his own thread?
Ageing, injury prone, always offside, hardly ever fit and having a dwindling effect on the first team?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 17:42:54 GMT
He comes onto the pitch wearing a clean kit and leaves the pitch wearing a clean kit.
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Post by FullerMagic on Apr 10, 2021 17:44:25 GMT
Here we go again blaming Vokes ....The tactics are shit yet he continues with the same ones, 3 at the back when 2 down and creating nothing , Vokes is poor yet he continues to use him over others, the same lazy subs with the same lazy tactics ....it’s wank Vokes has hardly played since Christmas yet others go under the radar why I’ve no fucking idea I don't think there are many going under the radar these days, Wez. The whole squad (including Fletcher and Powell) are getting routinely bashed. I think there's probably only Souttar who has escaped. Vokes is absolutely in a league of his own IMO though. |
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Post by loosestools on Apr 10, 2021 17:46:04 GMT
Why does Fletcher never get his own thread? Ageing, injury prone, always offside, hardly ever fit and having a dwindling effect on the first team? Because he continues to score the odd goal, which is what he is paid to do. When he stops he awaits the same fate, giving up with reputation intact, is all about timing. |
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Apr 10, 2021 17:48:03 GMT
Why does Fletcher never get his own thread? Ageing, injury prone, always offside, hardly ever fit and having a dwindling effect on the first team? Because, despite the odd poor game which is often down to his age and the effect of various niggles on his body, he's generally had a positive impact on us this season and is pushing for player of the year. He's scored a decent amount of goals and got a lot of assists and links our attacking play in a way that no one else in the squad can. Yes he was shit today and shit against Millwall, maybe he needs a rest. But overall his positive contributions far outweigh his negative ones this season. Vokes has literally done nothing all season that's the issue. |
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Post by J-Roar on Apr 10, 2021 17:48:11 GMT
Here we go again blaming Vokes ....The tactics are shit yet he continues with the same ones, 3 at the back when 2 down and creating nothing , Vokes is poor yet he continues to use him over others, the same lazy subs with the same lazy tactics ....it’s wank Vokes has hardly played since Christmas yet others go under the radar why I’ve no fucking idea Agree. It's pointless using him and playing with no width. It makes a struggling, out of form and devoid of confidence player even worse. |
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Post by davejohnno1 on Apr 10, 2021 17:49:34 GMT
He isn’t a player which is suited to the way O’Neill sets up the team. He was successful at Wolves and Burnley playing in teams that put crosses in to the box. We only have Smith who is capable of putting in a cross that has a chance of going anywhere near his head. That is stretching things somewhat. I think Sam Vokes is much more hindrance to Stoke City than Stoke City are hindrance to Sam Vokes. |
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Post by loosestools on Apr 10, 2021 17:53:05 GMT
He isn’t a player which is suited to the way O’Neill sets up the team. He was successful at Wolves and Burnley playing in teams that put crosses in to the box. We only have Smith who is capable of putting in a cross that has a chance of going anywhere near his head. That is stretching things somewhat. I think Sam Vokes is much more hindrance to Stoke City than Stoke City are hindrance to Sam Vokes. I bought some expensive work boots a year ago and I hate them, but I will not throw them away and will continue to wear them until they are worn out even though they wreck my feet. |
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Post by MadridStokie on Apr 10, 2021 18:04:27 GMT
Maybe the only thing missing is how the heck are we going to get rid of him if he does not play ? Maybe Michael is praying he finds a way to score some goals so that someone will take him off our hands ✌
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Post by chamberlain on Apr 10, 2021 18:05:14 GMT
Why does Fletcher never get his own thread? Ageing, injury prone, always offside, hardly ever fit and having a dwindling effect on the first team? I'm thinking the same, offered absolutely nothing for months. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 18:06:41 GMT
Why does Fletcher never get his own thread? Ageing, injury prone, always offside, hardly ever fit and having a dwindling effect on the first team? I'm thinking the same, offered absolutely nothing for months. Considering the shit Vokes gets for his 5-10 minute cameos, you have to question what Fletcher is bringing to the table when we've won just 6 in 20+ games. |
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Post by musik on Apr 10, 2021 18:21:23 GMT
In those 24 games, he has had 22 shots. He failed to take a single shot in twelve of those games. No goal attempt in HALF of the games played. 😐 Only a goalkeeper should be excused. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2021 18:25:27 GMT
He is a forward
So when his team win the ball , it's his Job to run off his man , thus giving them someone to pass too
This he does not do
In fact , he can't even run
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Post by Trouserdog on Apr 10, 2021 18:30:30 GMT
He brings him on because Fletcher can't last 90 minutes.
Norton should be getting those minutes now though.
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 10, 2021 18:41:57 GMT
Here we go again blaming Vokes ....The tactics are shit yet he continues with the same ones, 3 at the back when 2 down and creating nothing , Vokes is poor yet he continues to use him over others, the same lazy subs with the same lazy tactics ....it’s wank Vokes has hardly played since Christmas yet others go under the radar why I’ve no fucking idea Maybe people have un realistic expectations of a striker who only cost £9m FFS, what do they want a proper striker who can actually be arsed to maintain a decent fitness level, be bothered to run a bit or show any indication that he gives a flying fcuk about the club shocking. |
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Post by thevoid on Apr 10, 2021 18:44:30 GMT
He weakens the side. We'd be better off playing with 10 men and leaving him on the bench.
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