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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2021 12:52:27 GMT
This season when campbell was fit the team tried to step up to Campbells ability . I'm a big Campbell fan but I just cannot stomach this insane canonization of a player who has never even played a full season, never mind even scored more than 9 league goals in his best season, which was last year. He's just a young player still to make his full mark! The weight of expectation that lies upon the young man's shoulders when he comes back, after a lengthy lay off, is such that he can only fail. Now I'm commenting on Victoria's remark, which is a little unfair, because there's hundreds of these oversized ego projectations here along the lines of Campbell is above all others. The reason Campbell struck a rich vein of form in 2020 is that MON found a way to play him in the team that made it possible for him.
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Post by robwahlmann on Apr 11, 2021 12:58:33 GMT
I don't think Sam Vokes would be too bad in another formation and with a lot of good crosses coming into the box, but as a lone striker he is almost useless because of pace and mobility. To buy him to play as a lone striker is just madness! Don't they watch all the players 25 times before bringing them in!
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 11, 2021 13:06:40 GMT
Does his contract also state professional footballer if so he isn't. Who carried out the due diligence when we signed this lump of deadwood for £9m ? It's not his fault if we failed in that regard. It's his fault he doesn't try or is that too much to expect ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2021 13:10:27 GMT
It's not his fault if we failed in that regard. It's his fault he doesn't try or is that too much to expect ? He does try.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2021 13:23:22 GMT
I don't think Sam Vokes would be too bad in another formation and with a lot of good crosses coming into the box, but as a lone striker he is almost useless because of pace and mobility. To buy him to play as a lone striker is just madness! Don't they watch all the players 25 times before bringing them in! He was bought as the "focal point" of a heavily defensive formation, in other words the receiver of many long balls from Batth and Shawcross, who loved hoofing the ball but rarely put any quality into it (and Ryan of course was never really fit). The speedfire midfielders were then expected to soak up the balls that Vokes laid off to them. On paper that's a combination that made English football in the dark ages, and Vokes actually scored 6 goals in his first 12 games. But the speedfire midfielders never came here and the long balls from the back rarely reached their target, if indeed they had a target. Then of course we changed manager and despite the fact that he had worked with many a Vokeslike striker in his previous job, he was determined to change the Stoke way of playing, which meant Vokes was less useful. MON probably thought he'd be able to sell Vokes at a cut down fee which would enable him to show his great transfer acumen and we'd soar up the league. It didn't quite work out that way.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Apr 11, 2021 13:24:12 GMT
What does he do? He picks up a fortune for doing fuck all.
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Post by mickey2693 on Apr 11, 2021 13:41:12 GMT
He'll never be effective in the box with the lack of quality balls our wide players send in. It's his inability to win flick ons that annoys me the most.
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 11, 2021 13:46:31 GMT
It's his fault he doesn't try or is that too much to expect ? He does try. That's him trying God help us when he gives up.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2021 14:10:00 GMT
That's him trying God help us when he gives up. He can only offer the best that he has (within a system that does not help him). But the point about Vokes is that unlike the other 12 players in a similar situation as he is, he does fulfill his contract. He doesn't ask for special privileges or whatever. Try asking Etebo or Afobe to do that.
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Post by nott1 on Apr 11, 2021 16:26:59 GMT
That kid who came on with him showed him up to be useless lardarse who should be binned right now!
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Post by tachyon on Apr 11, 2021 17:50:57 GMT
Again, for emphasis, it's a genuine question and I don't want to just trash Vokes mindlessly. Vokes was a decent striker in the PL for Burnley. He averaged 0.31 xG per 90, while Burnley created just 1.1 xG/90 over the same timeframe. His season on season xG/90 had just started to decline when we got him. So he'd peaked a bit early. His xG had also become more reliant on players creating chances for him, rather than creating his own & it had also become more skewed towards headers, rather than shots than previously. So he was beginning to decline & becoming more a target man. Around a third of his assisted xG was created by Barnes (fellow striker) & Johann Berg Gudmundsson (winger) & we're certainly not providing him with that set up currently. Now a poorish fit at the tailend of his career.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Apr 11, 2021 17:59:28 GMT
What’s his xfp*?
* expected fag papers you can get under his boots when he’s jumping
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Post by greenhuff on Apr 11, 2021 18:08:58 GMT
I don't know that you can blame Vokes for his deterioration. Blame the people who paid 8 or 9 million for him ..smart bit of business by Dyche getting a decent fee for him before it became apparent he was shot
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 11, 2021 21:03:07 GMT
Again, for emphasis, it's a genuine question and I don't want to just trash Vokes mindlessly. Vokes was a decent striker in the PL for Burnley. He averaged 0.31 xG per 90, while Burnley created just 1.1 xG/90 over the same timeframe. His season on season xG/90 had just started to decline when we got him. So he'd peaked a bit early. His xG had also become more reliant on players creating chances for him, rather than creating his own & it had also become more skewed towards headers, rather than shots than previously. So he was beginning to decline & becoming more a target man. Around a third of his assisted xG was created by Barnes (fellow striker) & Johann Berg Gudmundsson (winger) & we're certainly not providing him with that set up currently. Now a poorish fit at the tailend of his career. Due diligence carried out I think not another down to the process and Teflon Tony.
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 11, 2021 21:10:00 GMT
That's him trying God help us when he gives up. He can only offer the best that he has (within a system that does not help him). But the point about Vokes is that unlike the other 12 players in a similar situation as he is, he does fulfill his contract. He doesn't ask for special privileges or whatever. Try asking Etebo or Afobe to do that. He's sitting on his arse most of the time, he is obviously quite happy to keep doing so picking up over £1m a year, he's fulfilling his contract by doing the bear minimum it's shameful, professional athlete my arse the two you mention at least have a desire to play football and someone wanted them on loan all of them are terrible signings, a testament to the piss poor transfer dealings under this board.
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Post by Olgrligm on Apr 11, 2021 21:27:12 GMT
Again, for emphasis, it's a genuine question and I don't want to just trash Vokes mindlessly. Vokes was a decent striker in the PL for Burnley. He averaged 0.31 xG per 90, while Burnley created just 1.1 xG/90 over the same timeframe. His season on season xG/90 had just started to decline when we got him. So he'd peaked a bit early. His xG had also become more reliant on players creating chances for him, rather than creating his own & it had also become more skewed towards headers, rather than shots than previously. So he was beginning to decline & becoming more a target man. Around a third of his assisted xG was created by Barnes (fellow striker) & Johann Berg Gudmundsson (winger) & we're certainly not providing him with that set up currently. Now a poorish fit at the tailend of his career. Is there anything in all of the stats that might give a hint towards what the manager thinks he's doing well as a sub?
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Post by troj on Apr 11, 2021 21:42:15 GMT
It can’t be a serious question if you’re asking the question. Come on the man is kidding himself if he thinks he’s a footballer.
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Post by crapslinger on Apr 11, 2021 21:49:47 GMT
Vokes was a decent striker in the PL for Burnley. He averaged 0.31 xG per 90, while Burnley created just 1.1 xG/90 over the same timeframe. His season on season xG/90 had just started to decline when we got him. So he'd peaked a bit early. His xG had also become more reliant on players creating chances for him, rather than creating his own & it had also become more skewed towards headers, rather than shots than previously. So he was beginning to decline & becoming more a target man. Around a third of his assisted xG was created by Barnes (fellow striker) & Johann Berg Gudmundsson (winger) & we're certainly not providing him with that set up currently. Now a poorish fit at the tailend of his career. Is there anything in all of the stats that might give a hint towards what the manager thinks he's doing well as a sub? Fcuk all.
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Post by tachyon on Apr 13, 2021 7:46:29 GMT
Is there anything in all of the stats that might give a hint towards what the manager thinks he's doing well as a sub? Not really. His non penalty xG/90 is the same as a starter as it is as a sub. An underwhelming 0.2 NP xG/90. He's an understandably ageing striker who's in decline, one reason you don't give long contracts to older players. But he doesn't deserve the abused heaped on here. He's ok at holding the ball up. We probably should be giving the younger players playing time. Youngster improve with age, but it's confounded by playing experience as well. Simply sitting out playing time while getting older doesn't lead to improvement in itself. You generally start to see improved striker metrics from younger players after around 5 full games worth of playing time at first team level. Our current position (not going up/ not going down) gives us a valuable resource of playing time to share out, particularly amongst our attacking players from the U23.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 10:55:27 GMT
Is there anything in all of the stats that might give a hint towards what the manager thinks he's doing well as a sub? Not really. His non penalty xG/90 is the same as a starter as it is as a sub. An underwhelming 0.2 NP xG/90. He's an understandably ageing striker who's in decline, one reason you don't give long contracts to older players. But he doesn't deserve the abused heaped on here. He's ok at holding the ball up. We probably should be giving the younger players playing time. Youngster improve with age, but it's confounded by playing experience as well. Simply sitting out playing time while getting older doesn't lead to improvement in itself. You generally start to see improved striker metrics from younger players after around 5 full games worth of playing time at first team level. Our current position (not going up/ not going down) gives us a valuable resource of playing time to share out, particularly amongst our attacking players from the U23. I totally agree that he doesn't deserve the abuse on here. However you make such a big fuss about his age and age in general, so I would like to draw your attention to the fact that he's only 31, which is an age which is generally seen as the prime of a footballer's years. The question though is if you look at Vokes the individual and compare him to Varian or Norton. They have a great appetite for the game and both, but Varian especially, have a speed of turn which is missing from Vokes' game. On the other hand he has a wealth of experience and he's faced plenty of criticism before, a situation the two youngsters don't know about. We don't know how robust they are when the going gets tough, like if they don't score their first goal within a certain timeframe. Just like there's a group of fans eager to see them tried at league level, there will be another group of fans that can't wait to bring them down if at first they don't succeed. It might not be nice to be in their shoes if that happens.
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Post by Trouserdog on Apr 13, 2021 13:26:24 GMT
Not really. His non penalty xG/90 is the same as a starter as it is as a sub. An underwhelming 0.2 NP xG/90. He's an understandably ageing striker who's in decline, one reason you don't give long contracts to older players. But he doesn't deserve the abused heaped on here. He's ok at holding the ball up. We probably should be giving the younger players playing time. Youngster improve with age, but it's confounded by playing experience as well. Simply sitting out playing time while getting older doesn't lead to improvement in itself. You generally start to see improved striker metrics from younger players after around 5 full games worth of playing time at first team level. Our current position (not going up/ not going down) gives us a valuable resource of playing time to share out, particularly amongst our attacking players from the U23. I totally agree that he doesn't deserve the abuse on here. However you make such a big fuss about his age and age in general, so I would like to draw your attention to the fact that he's only 31, which is an age which is generally seen as the prime of a footballer's years. The question though is if you look at Vokes the individual and compare him to Varian or Norton. They have a great appetite for the game and both, but Varian especially, have a speed of turn which is missing from Vokes' game. On the other hand he has a wealth of experience and he's faced plenty of criticism before, a situation the two youngsters don't know about. We don't know how robust they are when the going gets tough, like if they don't score their first goal within a certain timeframe. Just like there's a group of fans eager to see them tried at league level, there will be another group of fans that can't wait to bring them down if at first they don't succeed. It might not be nice to be in their shoes if that happens. A lot of strikers are effectively finished at 31- some even earlier. The peak years for forward players tend to be mid-to-late 20s as they rely on pace more than defenders do. Of course you get some who seem to flourish later in their careers (can I mention Jamie Vardy here, as after the recent 'Stuart Dallas' thread he's my new favourite player) but Vokes certainly doesn't look like one of those players. In fact, he looks completely and utterly shot- like he can barely move on the pitch. Whether that's down to age or attitude I don't know, but many strikers do go completely off the boil at 30.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 13:41:50 GMT
I don't know that you can blame Vokes for his deterioration. Blame the people who paid 8 or 9 million for him ..smart bit of business by Dyche getting a decent fee for him before it became apparent he was shot He got 9 times as much for vokes ( not even league 1 level these days ) as he paid for Pieter's ( premier League level) And there are still people on here , who think Tony scholes is the man to negotiate the transfer fees of players joining and leaving Stoke city 🤣
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Post by tachyon on Apr 13, 2021 16:57:05 GMT
Our current position (not going up/ not going down) gives us a valuable resource of playing time to share out, particularly amongst our attacking players from the U23.I totally agree that he doesn't deserve the abuse on here. However you make such a big fuss about his age and age in general, so I would like to draw your attention to the fact that he's only 31, which is an age which is generally seen as the prime of a footballer's years. Also totally agree re the abuse, but I can't agree that 31 is a player's peak age.
About 8 years ago I co-wrote a presentation to Premier League & Championship teams on ther ideal age profile for their squads.
We looked at various key performance indicators and how they changed over a ten year sample of players as they aged.
Generally you could split a squad into three main cohorts.
23 and younger (Young Talents)
24-29 (Peak Age)
29+ (Ageing Veterans)
Strikers tended to peak earlier. (In our sample their kpi's started to decrease relative to their previous age at 27)
Defenders peaked a little later and keepers later still.
Our work has become the standard way of forward planning for future squads.
Young talents replace peak age. Peak age replace ageing vets. Ageing vets retire and recruitment and/or youth system plugs any gaps.
Vokes' league adjusted kpi's have kicked into reverse for most of his time here.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Apr 13, 2021 17:09:40 GMT
Our current position (not going up/ not going down) gives us a valuable resource of playing time to share out, particularly amongst our attacking players from the U23.I totally agree that he doesn't deserve the abuse on here. However you make such a big fuss about his age and age in general, so I would like to draw your attention to the fact that he's only 31, which is an age which is generally seen as the prime of a footballer's years. Also totally agree re the abuse, but I can't agree that 31 is a player's peak age.
About 8 years ago I co-wrote a presentation to Premier League & Championship teams on ther ideal age profile for their squads.
We looked at various key performance indicators and how they changed over a ten year sample of players as they aged.
Generally you could split a squad into three main cohorts.
23 and younger (Young Talents)
24-29 (Peak Age)
29+ (Ageing Veterans)
Strikers tended to peak earlier. (In our sample their kpi's started to decrease relative to their previous age at 27)
Defenders peaked a little later and keepers later still.
Our work has become the standard way of forward planning for future squads.
Young talents replace peak age. Peak age replace ageing vets. Ageing vets retire and recruitment and/or youth system plugs any gaps.
Vokes' league adjusted kpi's have kicked into reverse for most of his time here.
So we paid £9M for a player who was already four months into the 'ageing veteran' stage and most likely already two years past his peak I'm not sure Stoke City use your work mate!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 17:12:12 GMT
Our current position (not going up/ not going down) gives us a valuable resource of playing time to share out, particularly amongst our attacking players from the U23.I totally agree that he doesn't deserve the abuse on here. However you make such a big fuss about his age and age in general, so I would like to draw your attention to the fact that he's only 31, which is an age which is generally seen as the prime of a footballer's years. Also totally agree re the abuse, but I can't agree that 31 is a player's peak age.
About 8 years ago I co-wrote a presentation to Premier League & Championship teams on ther ideal age profile for their squads.
We looked at various key performance indicators and how they changed over a ten year sample of players as they aged.
Generally you could split a squad into three main cohorts.
23 and younger (Young Talents)
24-29 (Peak Age)
29+ (Ageing Veterans)
Strikers tended to peak earlier. (In our sample their kpi's started to decrease relative to their previous age at 27)
Defenders peaked a little later and keepers later still.
Our work has become the standard way of forward planning for future squads.
Young talents replace peak age. Peak age replace ageing vets. Ageing vets retire and recruitment and/or youth system plugs any gaps.
Vokes' league adjusted kpi's have kicked into reverse for most of his time here.
Someone forgot to tell that to our managers, all five of them, because they have specialised in signing players at 30 or above.
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Post by thevoid on Apr 13, 2021 17:23:42 GMT
1001 Uses for a Sam Vokes anyone?
1. Coat and hat stand 2. Scarecrow 3. Tailor's dummy
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Post by heworksardtho on Apr 13, 2021 17:50:34 GMT
What’s his xfp*? * expected fag papers you can get under his boots when he’s jumping Quality 🤩
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2021 18:14:54 GMT
Also totally agree re the abuse, but I can't agree that 31 is a player's peak age.
About 8 years ago I co-wrote a presentation to Premier League & Championship teams on ther ideal age profile for their squads.
We looked at various key performance indicators and how they changed over a ten year sample of players as they aged.
Generally you could split a squad into three main cohorts.
23 and younger (Young Talents)
24-29 (Peak Age)
29+ (Ageing Veterans)
Strikers tended to peak earlier. (In our sample their kpi's started to decrease relative to their previous age at 27)
Defenders peaked a little later and keepers later still.
Our work has become the standard way of forward planning for future squads.
Young talents replace peak age. Peak age replace ageing vets. Ageing vets retire and recruitment and/or youth system plugs any gaps.
Vokes' league adjusted kpi's have kicked into reverse for most of his time here.
Someone forgot to tell that to our managers, all five of them, because they have specialised in signing players at 30 or above. They also forgot to tell it to Zlatan, Ronaldo & Messi and countless others.
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Post by peterpan1 on Apr 13, 2021 18:18:25 GMT
Eat all the pies?
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Post by mickstupp on Apr 13, 2021 18:25:31 GMT
Waits patiently for someone, anyone, to put a decent cross into the box?
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