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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jul 31, 2023 18:52:34 GMT
presumably you remember the real days of motorsport and f1 with sprint starts and true innovation and racing on the track! did the downturn in f1 begin with Ferrari and Schumacher's dominance or did it get worse before that? I mean Monaco as a race is now a nothing, the teams should have a one off car for Monaco that is smaller and allows some real racing! I am not (quite) as old as OldStokie, but I think the races became predictable when the cars began to become ultra reliable. My hero growing up was the late great Jim Clark. You could stick him in any car and he would be ultra-competitive..........but, the cars in those days were apparently built of the same stuff as Nick Powell. Colin Chapman built incredibly quick and innovative cars, but he would never use 2 bolts where he thought he could get away with one and for a 200 mile race his engines were built to just last 200 miles. There were no high tech test facilities or computer simulations so the margins for error were probably a bit higher. You never actually knew that a the leading Lotus was going to win until it actually crossed the finish line. Even when the turbo engines were introduced there was still a high degree of uncertainty. They were very fast but had a tendency to explode at any time. For example in 1980 and 1981, 7 different drivers won at least one race, 11 in 1982 and 8 in 1983. Some of the races were still pretty dull at times, but, you usually used to have to watch a bit more than the start to know who was going to win. On the other hand, the circuits were far too dangerous in those days, especially with the lack of safety built into the cars. Far too many drivers were killed or seriously injured. I walked round the old Monaco circuit in 1981. Where the circuit comes out under the tunnel towards the harbour, it used to flick through a gap between 2 trees. On the TV the gap looked a reasonable size. In real life it was maybe 30 feet. I would have bricked it at 30 mph, never mind the speeds the GP cars would have been going at. Would you rate Clark above Fangio? I went down an F1 rabbit hole during lockdowns and read about and watched loads of footage with the aim of ranking F1 drivers all-time (I didn't get to the early 70s). Clark would be right up there, and I couldn't decide if it was me being British that would put him above Fangio. Like many, Clark used to race in multiple formulas per weekend. I was also fascinated by a guy who didn't drive fast and retired early because he thought F1 was too dangerous - Tony Brooks I think - yet still won a few races and would've won the title if he didn't pit for a precaution one time despite his car running fine after his teammate hit him. Some called him the greatest driver not to win the title, but I don't think so; you need to push beyond danger to be an F1 World Champion, even today. I've tried to get hold of his autobiography, but it's rare, and expensive online. Divina Galica is fascinating too - as well as F1, she was an Olympic skier, and is still a racing instructor in her late 70s. In F1, she requested number 13 at a time it wasn't used for superstitious reasons. I agree that F1 became more boring as the cars became ultra-reliable - pioneered by Ferrari and Schumacher. I grew up with Mansell as my hero, and he lost one title due to a blown tyre, and there was another occasion where he fainted trying to push his car over the finish line. Schumacher also pioneered F1 drivers being ultra fit.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Jul 31, 2023 19:01:29 GMT
I tried my best to not show my bias against RedBull in my comments above. Although they were guilty of an overspend, the net £400k approx actual breach does not account for the superior aerodynamic design of their car. After a year of underbody development for all the teams, none of them had anything close to the concept that Adrian Newey's team have produced. The difference cannot be explained by money. The design concept is in the same league of genius as many of Colin Chapman's innovations and other off the wall innovations seen over the years. For me, this is the reason why I have no interest in Indycar or Formula E, as there is no outlet for technical genius. The overspend was 2021 though so wouldn't that have affected that season? It was so tight between Hamilton and Verstappen that season that a milisecond could've made the difference here and there. Ferrari also royally messed things up last season when Leclerc looked like the favourite after three races. But since then Red Bull have never lost momentum. I can easily believe that the overspending could have closed the gap in 2021, but that was not the question I was answering, as I was referring to the view that the overspending is the reason for the 2022/2023 dominance.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jul 31, 2023 19:06:57 GMT
The overspend was 2021 though so wouldn't that have affected that season? It was so tight between Hamilton and Verstappen that season that a milisecond could've made the difference here and there. Ferrari also royally messed things up last season when Leclerc looked like the favourite after three races. But since then Red Bull have never lost momentum. I can easily believe that the overspending could have closed the gap in 2021, but that was not the question I was answering, as I was referring to the view that the overspending is the reason for the 2022/2023 dominance. Without knowing anywhere near as much technically as you, I still think it's possible the overspending is responsible to an extent - the momentum Red Bull have had since and the fine margins that set them off on that. Not to mention the increased prize money and sponsorship that comes from a title win. Look how close Verstappen was to dropping out of qualifying at the weekend and how close the top 3 were time-wise the race before. Who knows what could've happened.
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Post by OldStokie on Jul 31, 2023 19:17:29 GMT
I've been a formula 1 follower all my life but after Horner pressurised the officials so that they could cheat Hamilton out of his world title I've lost interest in the sport and only watch a few highlights now and again. OS. presumably you remember the real days of motorsport and f1 with sprint starts and true innovation and racing on the track! did the downturn in f1 begin with Ferrari and Schumacher's dominance or did it get worse before that? I mean Monaco as a race is now a nothing, the teams should have a one off car for Monaco that is smaller and allows some real racing! Unfortunately, I go back to the days when the best drivers were killed frequently. It was brutal and deadly back then and so tragic. Fangio and Stirling Moss were my heroes but there were many great drivers who never even reached their potential. Like Alli, I've walked the course at Monaco and it was mind boggling to think that they could reach the speeds they could. Today, although the drivers are still fantastic, it's all down to teams with the most dosh and best testing facilities, and of course a bit of cheating as Red Bull have done without even reasonable punishment. Mercedes ruled the world for many years and now it's Red Bull's turn. F1 now needs to make some rule changes to even things out for the smaller teams to be successful. OS.
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Post by AlliG on Aug 1, 2023 12:03:18 GMT
I am not (quite) as old as OldStokie, but I think the races became predictable when the cars began to become ultra reliable. My hero growing up was the late great Jim Clark. You could stick him in any car and he would be ultra-competitive..........but, the cars in those days were apparently built of the same stuff as Nick Powell. Colin Chapman built incredibly quick and innovative cars, but he would never use 2 bolts where he thought he could get away with one and for a 200 mile race his engines were built to just last 200 miles. There were no high tech test facilities or computer simulations so the margins for error were probably a bit higher. You never actually knew that a the leading Lotus was going to win until it actually crossed the finish line. Even when the turbo engines were introduced there was still a high degree of uncertainty. They were very fast but had a tendency to explode at any time. For example in 1980 and 1981, 7 different drivers won at least one race, 11 in 1982 and 8 in 1983. Some of the races were still pretty dull at times, but, you usually used to have to watch a bit more than the start to know who was going to win. On the other hand, the circuits were far too dangerous in those days, especially with the lack of safety built into the cars. Far too many drivers were killed or seriously injured. I walked round the old Monaco circuit in 1981. Where the circuit comes out under the tunnel towards the harbour, it used to flick through a gap between 2 trees. On the TV the gap looked a reasonable size. In real life it was maybe 30 feet. I would have bricked it at 30 mph, never mind the speeds the GP cars would have been going at. Would you rate Clark above Fangio? I went down an F1 rabbit hole during lockdowns and read about and watched loads of footage with the aim of ranking F1 drivers all-time (I didn't get to the early 70s). Clark would be right up there, and I couldn't decide if it was me being British that would put him above Fangio. Like many, Clark used to race in multiple formulas per weekend. I was also fascinated by a guy who didn't drive fast and retired early because he thought F1 was too dangerous - Tony Brooks I think - yet still won a few races and would've won the title if he didn't pit for a precaution one time despite his car running fine after his teammate hit him. Some called him the greatest driver not to win the title, but I don't think so; you need to push beyond danger to be an F1 World Champion, even today. I've tried to get hold of his autobiography, but it's rare, and expensive online. Divina Galica is fascinating too - as well as F1, she was an Olympic skier, and is still a racing instructor in her late 70s. In F1, she requested number 13 at a time it wasn't used for superstitious reasons. I agree that F1 became more boring as the cars became ultra-reliable - pioneered by Ferrari and Schumacher. I grew up with Mansell as my hero, and he lost one title due to a blown tyre, and there was another occasion where he fainted trying to push his car over the finish line. Schumacher also pioneered F1 drivers being ultra fit. It is a good question. I must admit that I have given up trying to rank the drivers. There was a massive change in cars and tyres even between Fangio and Clark and the pace of development has accelerated massively since. The front engined 4.5 litre beasts on thin crossply tyres that Fangio started driving in looked beautiful but must have been scary to drive, especially on those old circuits. The one thing I would say is that the best drivers of each era all seem to have a feel for the car and track that sets them apart from the mere mortals who make up the majority of the grid. It is interesting you mentioned driver fitness. I remember being amazed back in the 1970s when James Hunt, with his reputation as a hard drinking, smoking, indolent playboy, appeared on the BBC program Superstars and turned out to be fitter than almost all the other professional sportsmen of the time.
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Post by OldStokie on Aug 1, 2023 13:07:11 GMT
Of all the drivers post-Fangio period I would have to go for Jim Clarke as the best I've actually seen. I watched him win the British GP at Silverstone and was in awe at the way he drove. He was as smooth as silk and to watch him drift around a bend with the slide completely under control was mind boggling. In 'modern day' times two drivers stood out to me. Senna was fantastic and Michael Schumacher was a throwback to the olden day drivers with his ruthlessness and will to win. Had he driven back in the olden days he would definitely have been one of those who went beyond the limit and perished because of. I still haven't come to terms with him being so terribly afflicted by a skiing accident after all the perils he went through on the track.
OS.
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Post by SuperRickyFuller on Aug 1, 2023 13:41:02 GMT
Of all the drivers post-Fangio period I would have to go for Jim Clarke as the best I've actually seen. I watched him win the British GP at Silverstone and was in awe at the way he drove. He was as smooth as silk and to watch him drift around a bend with the slide completely under control was mind boggling. In 'modern day' times two drivers stood out to me. Senna was fantastic and Michael Schumacher was a throwback to the olden day drivers with his ruthlessness and will to win. Had he driven back in the olden days he would definitely have been one of those who went beyond the limit and perished because of. I still haven't come to terms with him being so terribly afflicted by a skiing accident after all the perils he went through on the track. OS. I was unfortunate enough to see Schuey go off at the end of the Hangar Straight and into the barriers at Stowe. He ended up with a broken leg but the speed he was going at and how he hit the barrier, I thought he was dead which was a bit traumatic for 9 year old me. The worst part was that people were cheering! I missed Senna as I would've been too young but I've watched a hell of a lot of videos of him driving and the Senna film that came out. Watching videos of him driving one handed are just mindboggling.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Aug 1, 2023 13:52:32 GMT
I remember booing Senna at Silverstone, as I and everyone else there was caught up in Mansell Mania. It was the first time I'd experienced mild mass hysteria.
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Post by flea79 on Aug 1, 2023 13:57:44 GMT
I remember booing Senna at Silverstone, as I and everyone else there was caught up in Mansell Mania. It was the first time I'd experienced mild mass hysteria. did you see the latest grand tour special where they found the poor waxwork of Mansell in the museum of wax in Gdansk or wherever it was, utterly amazing tv moment
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Aug 1, 2023 14:01:57 GMT
I remember booing Senna at Silverstone, as I and everyone else there was caught up in Mansell Mania. It was the first time I'd experienced mild mass hysteria. did you see the latest grand tour special where they found the poor waxwork of Mansell in the museum of wax in Gdansk or wherever it was, utterly amazing tv moment Yes! That wax work museum was something quite special. Our Nige did well driving the car down the ski slope.
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Post by flea79 on Aug 1, 2023 14:02:57 GMT
did you see the latest grand tour special where they found the poor waxwork of Mansell in the museum of wax in Gdansk or wherever it was, utterly amazing tv moment Yes! That wax work museum was something quite special. Our Nige did well driving the car down the ski slope. the william and kate ones were spectacular! poor nigel, arrow in the head too!
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Aug 1, 2023 14:06:37 GMT
It is interesting you mentioned driver fitness. I remember being amazed back in the 1970s when James Hunt, with his reputation as a hard drinking, smoking, indolent playboy, appeared on the BBC program Superstars and turned out to be fitter than almost all the other professional sportsmen of the time. I know Hunt was a keen runner. Senna brought fitness in motorsport forwards too, but I think Schumacher was the biggest influence. On the ranking side of things, I was going against who drivers had as competition in their era, and Clark raced against many of the best ever. Probably controversially, I wouldn't rate Schumacher up there as one of the very best. I think he relied too much on politics/unsportsmanlike behaviour and being the undisputed number 1 driver in the team. Schumacher's fitness also meant in races he could churn out fast lap after lap without tiring like his competitors, and the fact everyone else had caught up fitness-wise is perhaps partly why he wasn't as eye-catching when he returned to F1 after hiatus. Maybe even more controversially, I wouldn't rank Senna as one of the very best (but probably top of the next tier). The pressure really got to him when he joined Williams - it just seemed he wasn't coping well at all. That's nothing to do with his tragic accident though - I'm sure he would've won more titles (and was cheated out of one by another master of unsportsmanlike behaviour and politics, Prost, when the FIA head was French).
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Aug 1, 2023 14:24:51 GMT
It is interesting you mentioned driver fitness. I remember being amazed back in the 1970s when James Hunt, with his reputation as a hard drinking, smoking, indolent playboy, appeared on the BBC program Superstars and turned out to be fitter than almost all the other professional sportsmen of the time. I know Hunt was a keen runner. Senna brought fitness in motorsport forwards too, but I think Schumacher was the biggest influence. On the ranking side of things, I was going against who drivers had as competition in their era, and Clark raced against many of the best ever. Probably controversially, I wouldn't rate Schumacher up there as one of the very best. I think he relied too much on politics/unsportsmanlike behaviour and being the undisputed number 1 driver in the team. Schumacher's fitness also meant in races he could churn out fast lap after lap without tiring like his competitors, and the fact everyone else had caught up fitness-wise is perhaps partly why he wasn't as eye-catching when he returned to F1 after hiatus. Maybe even more controversially, I wouldn't rank Senna as one of the very best (but probably top of the next tier). The pressure really got to him when he joined Williams - it just seemed he wasn't coping well at all. That's nothing to do with his tragic accident though - I'm sure he would've won more titles (and was cheated out of one by another master of unsportsmanlike behaviour and politics, Prost, when the FIA head was French). I'm sort of with you regarding Schumacher, although it's worth noting that he was one to watch as soon as he came into F1. He had a habit of T-boning other cars, probably due to over-aggressive driving, but it was clear that he was a talent. Senna joined Williams in the year that active suspension was banned, and Williams had not sorted the conventional suspension set up of the car. Senna had stated that he had no confidence in the car and even predicted that it would lead to accidents. Adrian Newey said later that they had largely forgotten how to set up a car properly after dominating things with their class-leading active suspension.
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Formula 1
Aug 1, 2023 14:46:48 GMT
via mobile
Post by bayernoatcake on Aug 1, 2023 14:46:48 GMT
Any sport where the documentary is way better than the sport has a real issue.
How do they solve it?
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Aug 1, 2023 15:15:18 GMT
Any sport where the documentary is way better than the sport has a real issue. How do they solve it? Drive To Survive does my head in.
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Post by Clayton Wood on Aug 1, 2023 16:22:59 GMT
Any sport where the documentary is way better than the sport has a real issue. How do they solve it? At the start of the season 5 races are selected as wild card races by the FIA. Qualifying is run, no sprint crap. After qualy it is announced that this is a wild card race and the starting grid is reversed from the qualy positions. No doubt Red Bull will have inadvertently stumbled on the wild cards and mad Max would drive around like he's got a potato shoved up his exhaust. If it could be kept honest* 5 races would be worth watching without denigrating qualifying as they would not know which will be reversed. A bit of nous would be needed as Monaco as a wild card would be carnage....but then again *big IF EDIT would keep the Yanks interested and spawn a whole new Far East betting scam market
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Formula 1
Aug 1, 2023 16:44:38 GMT
via mobile
Post by flea79 on Aug 1, 2023 16:44:38 GMT
Any sport where the documentary is way better than the sport has a real issue. How do they solve it? At the start of the season 5 races are selected as wild card races by the FIA. Qualifying is run, no sprint crap. After qualy it is announced that this is a wild card race and the starting grid is reversed from the qualy positions. No doubt Red Bull will have inadvertently stumbled on the wild cards and mad Max would drive around like he's got a potato shoved up his exhaust. If it could be kept honest* 5 races would be worth watching without denigrating qualifying as they would not know which will be reversed. A bit of nous would be needed as Monaco as a wild card would be carnage....but then again *big IF EDIT would keep the Yanks interested and spawn a whole new Far East betting scam market Give them all the chassis and engine and let them loose with the aero and see what they can achieve!
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Post by Clayton Wood on Aug 1, 2023 16:46:51 GMT
At the start of the season 5 races are selected as wild card races by the FIA. Qualifying is run, no sprint crap. After qualy it is announced that this is a wild card race and the starting grid is reversed from the qualy positions. No doubt Red Bull will have inadvertently stumbled on the wild cards and mad Max would drive around like he's got a potato shoved up his exhaust. If it could be kept honest* 5 races would be worth watching without denigrating qualifying as they would not know which will be reversed. A bit of nous would be needed as Monaco as a wild card would be carnage....but then again *big IF EDIT would keep the Yanks interested and spawn a whole new Far East betting scam market Give them all the chassis and engine and let them loose with the aero and see what they can achieve! Didn't they pretty much do that with the A! malarky that died on it's arse in 2009?
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Post by SuperRickyFuller on Aug 1, 2023 17:25:06 GMT
Any sport where the documentary is way better than the sport has a real issue. How do they solve it? Drive To Survive does my head in. Same here, it's manufactured garbage.
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Post by SuperRickyFuller on Aug 1, 2023 17:31:49 GMT
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Aug 1, 2023 20:10:58 GMT
I know Hunt was a keen runner. Senna brought fitness in motorsport forwards too, but I think Schumacher was the biggest influence. On the ranking side of things, I was going against who drivers had as competition in their era, and Clark raced against many of the best ever. Probably controversially, I wouldn't rate Schumacher up there as one of the very best. I think he relied too much on politics/unsportsmanlike behaviour and being the undisputed number 1 driver in the team. Schumacher's fitness also meant in races he could churn out fast lap after lap without tiring like his competitors, and the fact everyone else had caught up fitness-wise is perhaps partly why he wasn't as eye-catching when he returned to F1 after hiatus. Maybe even more controversially, I wouldn't rank Senna as one of the very best (but probably top of the next tier). The pressure really got to him when he joined Williams - it just seemed he wasn't coping well at all. That's nothing to do with his tragic accident though - I'm sure he would've won more titles (and was cheated out of one by another master of unsportsmanlike behaviour and politics, Prost, when the FIA head was French). I'm sort of with you regarding Schumacher, although it's worth noting that he was one to watch as soon as he came into F1. He had a habit of T-boning other cars, probably due to over-aggressive driving, but it was clear that he was a talent. Senna joined Williams in the year that active suspension was banned, and Williams had not sorted the conventional suspension set up of the car. Senna had stated that he had no confidence in the car and even predicted that it would lead to accidents. Adrian Newey said later that they had largely forgotten how to set up a car properly after dominating things with their class-leading active suspension. Hill and Mansell (despite racing Indy Car for most of the season) were fine with the car, and Coulthard didn't do too badly with it being his debut season. I don't want to undermine how brilliant Senna was though. Good point on Schumacher, though it's a shame he felt he had to resort to such tactics. It wasn't just the t-boning but the constant undermining and mindgames with his teammates. Rosberg said he learnt a lot from Schumacher on that - he wouldn't have beaten Hamilton to the title otherwise and knew he wouldn't beat him again.
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Post by FbrgVaStkFan on Sept 17, 2023 12:51:39 GMT
Shocker. Actually a decent race now in Singapore.
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Post by FbrgVaStkFan on Sept 17, 2023 13:52:30 GMT
Excellent finish. Sainz, Norris, Hamilton. Russell goes into barrier on final lap. Good race...finally.
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Post by professorplump on Sept 17, 2023 17:59:23 GMT
Best race of the year by a mile. A very clever drive from Sainz. Would have been a good championship without Red Bull, as Ferrari, Mercedes, Mclaren and Aston Martin are all well matched.
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Post by fullmetaljacket on Sept 17, 2023 18:53:05 GMT
Big credit to Max having to drive that tractor all year and being competitive
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Sept 17, 2023 20:16:34 GMT
Sainz has been steadily going up in my estimation over the last twelve months as he's consistently out-thought his own team. It beggared belief that his team warned him about Norris getting into his DRS Zone, when it was bleeding obvious that he wanted Lando there to act as a rear gunner with DRS. Norris also knew what was going on and knew that friving like a defending team mate was his only chance of a podium. I enjoyed Lewis trying to give Russell the hurry up too!
I felt sorry for Ocon, as his overtake on Alonso deserved a points finish all by itself.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Sept 19, 2023 20:38:23 GMT
Felipe Massa's crew attempting to overturn the 2008 F1 World Championship that Hamilton won in one of the most exciting final races I've seen: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/66857747I hope this doesn't happen. How many years would we go back? Senna was cheated out of a title, for example. Would it lead to Hamilton getting Verstappen's controversial first championship back?
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Sept 20, 2023 6:17:38 GMT
Felipe Massa's crew attempting to overturn the 2008 F1 World Championship that Hamilton won in one of the most exciting final races I've seen: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/66857747I hope this doesn't happen. How many years would we go back? Senna was cheated out of a title, for example. Would it lead to Hamilton getting Verstappen's controversial first championship back? Massa was definately wronged by the incident, and I have very little doubt that Max and Bernie covered it up. It's for this reason, I no long fret over Lewis getting stuffed in 2021. If Massa wins his case, the Lewis will loose one championship, but will go on to win 2021. However, Massa does not have a cat in hell's change of winning in court as his case is largely based on a public comment by Bernie. Seeing that Bernie could never be described as a reliable witness, and has already said that his memory of events is unclear, the best Massa can do hear is to go for a payout to shut him up.
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Post by professorplump on Sept 20, 2023 6:50:01 GMT
I don't see how Massa can possibly win this case. Can he prove that he would have definitely won that race without the Piquet accident? It is likely that he would have done but he can't say for certain as there was still several laps to go. Also if the points totals were different, then that would have affected the tactics for the following races. From memory, I think Hamilton went into the last race just needing to finish 5th to win the title. If he needed to win, McLaren would have set up the car in a more aggressive way and adopted a more bold strategy. The 2021 situation with Hamilton and Verstappen would be a much simpler case to win as it was the final couple of laps of the final race of the season.
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Post by flea79 on Sept 20, 2023 9:16:46 GMT
Felipe Massa's crew attempting to overturn the 2008 F1 World Championship that Hamilton won in one of the most exciting final races I've seen: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/66857747I hope this doesn't happen. How many years would we go back? Senna was cheated out of a title, for example. Would it lead to Hamilton getting Verstappen's controversial first championship back? Massa was definately wronged by the incident, and I have very little doubt that Max and Bernie covered it up. It's for this reason, I no long fret over Lewis getting stuffed in 2021. If Massa wins his case, the Lewis will loose one championship, but will go on to win 2021. However, Massa does not have a cat in hell's change of winning in court as his case is largely based on a public comment by Bernie. Seeing that Bernie could never be described as a reliable witness, and has already said that his memory of events is unclear, the best Massa can do hear is to go for a payout to shut him up. interestingly Lewis made one comment about his maiden season when he had the chance too win the title in the last race and his gearbox magically packed up for a few seconds, he said there was a meeting about what happened and he cant and will never talk about what happened that day makes me wonder if the young lad wasnt stiffed out of the title
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