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Post by thevoid on Sept 8, 2021 13:13:06 GMT
The queues at Dover should cause us to question if we really need to import so much food, particularly out of season. The same question could be asked about other commodities Perhaps it's time to bring back the Buy British slogan. Ooh that'll give Remainers conniption fits, especially if it has a Union Jack on.
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 28, 2021 16:25:51 GMT
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Post by Veritas on Sept 28, 2021 17:15:18 GMT
Perhaps it's time to bring back the Buy British slogan. Ooh that'll give Remainers conniption fits, especially if it has a Union Jack on. Does that include the British food left in the ground due to lack of agricultural labour?
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Post by thevoid on Sept 28, 2021 19:29:29 GMT
Ooh that'll give Remainers conniption fits, especially if it has a Union Jack on. Does that include the British food left in the ground due to lack of agricultural labour? There are plenty of British people who are unemployed but capable of working.
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Post by Veritas on Sept 28, 2021 19:40:00 GMT
Does that include the British food left in the ground due to lack of agricultural labour? There are plenty of British people who are unemployed but capable of working. Very true, how do you resolve that conundrum?
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Post by thevoid on Sept 28, 2021 20:43:59 GMT
There are plenty of British people who are unemployed but capable of working. Very true, how do you resolve that conundrum? Freeze benefits if you're capable of working and turn honest work down? Which would also free up money for those who genuinely need it Picking crops isn't everyone's idea of a dream job but it if it puts food on your table and holiday funds in the bank it's better than £70 a week JSA surely?
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Post by mrcoke on Sept 28, 2021 22:30:17 GMT
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Post by Veritas on Sept 28, 2021 22:38:32 GMT
Very true, how do you resolve that conundrum? Freeze benefits if you're capable of working and turn honest work down? Which would also free up money for those who genuinely need it Picking crops isn't everyone's idea of a dream job but it if it puts food on your table and holiday funds in the bank it's better than £70 a week JSA surely? And if they don't do it, put them in chains and drag them there?
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Post by thevoid on Sept 29, 2021 5:40:07 GMT
Freeze benefits if you're capable of working and turn honest work down? Which would also free up money for those who genuinely need it Picking crops isn't everyone's idea of a dream job but it if it puts food on your table and holiday funds in the bank it's better than £70 a week JSA surely? And if they don't do it, put them in chains and drag them there? Stop being silly. Transport would be provided (like buses are put on for agency workers to remote locations) and, as I said earlier, refusal to accept the work would see benefits sanctioned (which I thought was standard practice anyway). Going back to your chains comment, maybe it could be used as a form of community service too?
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 5, 2021 8:59:28 GMT
Ooh that'll give Remainers conniption fits, especially if it has a Union Jack on. Does that include the British food left in the ground due to lack of agricultural labour? Evidence please. Do you have numbers? There are no reports of shortages of people to harvest products in the EU. There are reasons including: www.europol.europa.eu/newsroom/news/labour-in-vineyards-and-farms-checked-across-europeThe flagship of the EU is the Common Agricultural Policy. The largest part of the EU budget and a gravy train where the richest farmers and largest land owners receive the most money. Taxes have gone to food processing companies in the past and excess production dumped in Africa. In the UK there are many very rich people like the Royal family and other huge land owners who have done very nicely out of CAP. There is also exploitation of workers in the EU as well it appears. The new UK agricultural act will take 7 years to gradually move from the EU CAP system to a new British system for farming and nature conservancy. I've no doubt there will be some pain along the way, some farmers will suffer and there may be some shortages but we can evolve to a system that is far more sustainable. We might actualy end up paying agricultural workers a decent wage. And guess what, it might actually result in lower cost to the tax payer than the CAP, but I expect that will take a decade.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Oct 5, 2021 9:48:14 GMT
Does that include the British food left in the ground due to lack of agricultural labour? Evidence please. Do you have numbers? There are no reports of shortages of people to harvest products in the EU. There are reasons including: www.europol.europa.eu/newsroom/news/labour-in-vineyards-and-farms-checked-across-europeThe flagship of the EU is the Common Agricultural Policy. The largest part of the EU budget and a gravy train where the richest farmers and largest land owners receive the most money. Taxes have gone to food processing companies in the past and excess production dumped in Africa. In the UK there are many very rich people like the Royal family and other huge land owners who have done very nicely out of CAP. There is also exploitation of workers in the EU as well it appears. The new UK agricultural act will take 7 years to gradually move from the EU CAP system to a new British system for farming and nature conservancy. I've no doubt there will be some pain along the way, some farmers will suffer and there may be some shortages but we can evolve to a system that is far more sustainable. We might actualy end up paying agricultural workers a decent wage. And guess what, it might actually result in lower cost to the tax payer than the CAP, but I expect that will take a decade. If you've not seen any articles on labour shortages leaving crops unpicked then you really must gave been avoiding the newspapers recently. www.independent.co.uk/news/business/labour-shortages-brexit-farmers-b1914304.htmlI do find it very concerning that the prevailing view amongst brexiters now seems to be 'we can't keep relying on cheap foreign labour*, the market will prevail and it will sort itself out in time (usually 10 years if pressed) and if we end up paying british workers more to do the job so be it' For me that just completely misses the salient point that it doesn't matter how much you offer to pay them they still won't come to work for you if they're not there - or if they do it will be at the expense of another sector who will then look to pay even more to get them back. There was an article in the Telegraph ?behind paywall - but about Jan time) saying that for the first time the UK population is declining - at the same time that our over 65 population is growing at a rate of 23% per decade. The working population is therefore about to shrink at an alarming rate. Consequently if farmer Giles can't get a his carrots picked this year - then next year he won't grow as many - so rather than becoming less dependent on imports to feed our non productive old folk - we'll become more dependent. If you then extrapolate that across other sectors now with higher wages per employee but lower overall output due to fewer available employees you very soon have a shrinking economy with lower tax take and less incentive to invest. If we want to avoid this then I'm afraid our leaders need to be far more proactive have a far more detailed plan and be far more interventionist than the have so far shown themselves willing. And strictly between you and me I just don't believe the competence and wherewithall is actully there. *No-one said foreign labour has to be cheap labour.
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 5, 2021 10:11:34 GMT
I wonder how much of that is down to the country’s obsession with supermarkets And the fact that fruit and vegetables have to be exact sizes and shape So if for some reason the field of crops doesn’t match the criteria it’s cheaper to plough it in then pay to harvest something you can’t sell
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Post by wagsastokie on Oct 5, 2021 10:14:00 GMT
Evidence please. Do you have numbers? There are no reports of shortages of people to harvest products in the EU. There are reasons including: www.europol.europa.eu/newsroom/news/labour-in-vineyards-and-farms-checked-across-europeThe flagship of the EU is the Common Agricultural Policy. The largest part of the EU budget and a gravy train where the richest farmers and largest land owners receive the most money. Taxes have gone to food processing companies in the past and excess production dumped in Africa. In the UK there are many very rich people like the Royal family and other huge land owners who have done very nicely out of CAP. There is also exploitation of workers in the EU as well it appears. The new UK agricultural act will take 7 years to gradually move from the EU CAP system to a new British system for farming and nature conservancy. I've no doubt there will be some pain along the way, some farmers will suffer and there may be some shortages but we can evolve to a system that is far more sustainable. We might actualy end up paying agricultural workers a decent wage. And guess what, it might actually result in lower cost to the tax payer than the CAP, but I expect that will take a decade. If you've not seen any articles on labour shortages leaving crops unpicked then you really must gave been avoiding the newspapers recently. www.independent.co.uk/news/business/labour-shortages-brexit-farmers-b1914304.htmlI do find it very concerning that the prevailing view amongst brexiters now seems to be 'we can't keep relying on cheap foreign labour*, the market will prevail and it will sort itself out in time (usually 10 years if pressed) and if we end up paying british workers more to do the job so be it' For me that just completely misses the salient point that it doesn't matter how much you offer to pay them they still won't come to work for you if they're not there - or if they do it will be at the expense of another sector who will then look to pay even more to get them back. There was an article in the Telegraph ?behind paywall - but about Jan time) saying that for the first time the UK population is declining - at the same time that our over 65 population is growing at a rate of 23% per decade. The working population is therefore about to shrink at an alarming rate. Consequently if farmer Giles can't get a his carrots picked this year - then next year he won't grow as many - so rather than becoming less dependent on imports to feed our non productive old folk - we'll become more dependent. If you then extrapolate that across other sectors now with higher wages per employee but lower overall output due to fewer available employees you very soon have a shrinking economy with lower tax take and less incentive to invest. If we want to avoid this then I'm afraid our leaders need to be far more proactive have a far more detailed plan and be far more interventionist than the have so far shown themselves willing. And strictly between you and me I just don't believe the competence and wherewithall is actully there. *No-one said foreign labour has to be cheap labour. Try saying that to the gang masters in my neck of the woods That have exploited them for years Deducting all sorts of stoppages including rents for one room hovels
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Oct 5, 2021 10:20:01 GMT
If you've not seen any articles on labour shortages leaving crops unpicked then you really must gave been avoiding the newspapers recently. www.independent.co.uk/news/business/labour-shortages-brexit-farmers-b1914304.htmlI do find it very concerning that the prevailing view amongst brexiters now seems to be 'we can't keep relying on cheap foreign labour*, the market will prevail and it will sort itself out in time (usually 10 years if pressed) and if we end up paying british workers more to do the job so be it' For me that just completely misses the salient point that it doesn't matter how much you offer to pay them they still won't come to work for you if they're not there - or if they do it will be at the expense of another sector who will then look to pay even more to get them back. There was an article in the Telegraph ?behind paywall - but about Jan time) saying that for the first time the UK population is declining - at the same time that our over 65 population is growing at a rate of 23% per decade. The working population is therefore about to shrink at an alarming rate. Consequently if farmer Giles can't get a his carrots picked this year - then next year he won't grow as many - so rather than becoming less dependent on imports to feed our non productive old folk - we'll become more dependent. If you then extrapolate that across other sectors now with higher wages per employee but lower overall output due to fewer available employees you very soon have a shrinking economy with lower tax take and less incentive to invest. If we want to avoid this then I'm afraid our leaders need to be far more proactive have a far more detailed plan and be far more interventionist than the have so far shown themselves willing. And strictly between you and me I just don't believe the competence and wherewithall is actully there. *No-one said foreign labour has to be cheap labour. Try saying that to the gang masters in my neck of the woods That have exploited them for years Deducting all sorts of stoppages including rents for one room hovels I didn't say that there wasn't cheap foreign labour I said it didn't have to be. The answer to that is to police emoyment practices better otherwise there's no reason vulnerable Brits could't be exploited to the same degree (and indeed are).
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 5, 2021 11:15:19 GMT
Evidence please. Do you have numbers? There are no reports of shortages of people to harvest products in the EU. There are reasons including: www.europol.europa.eu/newsroom/news/labour-in-vineyards-and-farms-checked-across-europeThe flagship of the EU is the Common Agricultural Policy. The largest part of the EU budget and a gravy train where the richest farmers and largest land owners receive the most money. Taxes have gone to food processing companies in the past and excess production dumped in Africa. In the UK there are many very rich people like the Royal family and other huge land owners who have done very nicely out of CAP. There is also exploitation of workers in the EU as well it appears. The new UK agricultural act will take 7 years to gradually move from the EU CAP system to a new British system for farming and nature conservancy. I've no doubt there will be some pain along the way, some farmers will suffer and there may be some shortages but we can evolve to a system that is far more sustainable. We might actualy end up paying agricultural workers a decent wage. And guess what, it might actually result in lower cost to the tax payer than the CAP, but I expect that will take a decade. If you've not seen any articles on labour shortages leaving crops unpicked then you really must gave been avoiding the newspapers recently. www.independent.co.uk/news/business/labour-shortages-brexit-farmers-b1914304.htmlI do find it very concerning that the prevailing view amongst brexiters now seems to be 'we can't keep relying on cheap foreign labour*, the market will prevail and it will sort itself out in time (usually 10 years if pressed) and if we end up paying british workers more to do the job so be it' For me that just completely misses the salient point that it doesn't matter how much you offer to pay them they still won't come to work for you if they're not there - or if they do it will be at the expense of another sector who will then look to pay even more to get them back. There was an article in the Telegraph ?behind paywall - but about Jan time) saying that for the first time the UK population is declining - at the same time that our over 65 population is growing at a rate of 23% per decade. The working population is therefore about to shrink at an alarming rate. Consequently if farmer Giles can't get a his carrots picked this year - then next year he won't grow as many - so rather than becoming less dependent on imports to feed our non productive old folk - we'll become more dependent. If you then extrapolate that across other sectors now with higher wages per employee but lower overall output due to fewer available employees you very soon have a shrinking economy with lower tax take and less incentive to invest. If we want to avoid this then I'm afraid our leaders need to be far more proactive have a far more detailed plan and be far more interventionist than the have so far shown themselves willing. And strictly between you and me I just don't believe the competence and wherewithall is actully there. *No-one said foreign labour has to be cheap labour. As I have repeatedly point out the Indepedent twists the facts to their anti Brexit stance. As I have pointed out before (see a couple of posts above) the wastage of food by farmers, distributors and supermarkets is massive, fostered by the EU CAP which encourages over production. Now when crop wastage occurs, Brexit is to blame. You seem to believe in an EU where huge numbers of South and East European citizens have to leave their homelands to find work. A system where east European doctors leave their homelands to stack shelves in UK supermarkets. Is that your European dream? The Romanian health service in in state of collapse due to health workers leaving, but never mind, freedom of movement is more important. The UK population will continue to grow through immigration, not freedom of movement. The vast majority of immigration in 2019 was from non EU countries, over 250,000. The pandemic had arrested that but it will return, the Telegraph are merely picking up a freak statistic due to the pandemic. Engineers are working on methods to harvest crops with machinery. Farmers are investing heavily in things like vertical farming. Don't you think it's strange we rely on huge amounts of food in our shops from smaller countries with similar climates like The Netherlands, Belgium, and Ireland? Now we are out of the EU, we can import from outside the EU for food that is not limited by quotas or tariffs. We can help poor African countries who are desperate to grow their economies. www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/august2020
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Post by marwood on Oct 5, 2021 11:18:44 GMT
insects - its the way forward
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Oct 5, 2021 11:56:28 GMT
If you've not seen any articles on labour shortages leaving crops unpicked then you really must gave been avoiding the newspapers recently. www.independent.co.uk/news/business/labour-shortages-brexit-farmers-b1914304.htmlI do find it very concerning that the prevailing view amongst brexiters now seems to be 'we can't keep relying on cheap foreign labour*, the market will prevail and it will sort itself out in time (usually 10 years if pressed) and if we end up paying british workers more to do the job so be it' For me that just completely misses the salient point that it doesn't matter how much you offer to pay them they still won't come to work for you if they're not there - or if they do it will be at the expense of another sector who will then look to pay even more to get them back. There was an article in the Telegraph ?behind paywall - but about Jan time) saying that for the first time the UK population is declining - at the same time that our over 65 population is growing at a rate of 23% per decade. The working population is therefore about to shrink at an alarming rate. Consequently if farmer Giles can't get a his carrots picked this year - then next year he won't grow as many - so rather than becoming less dependent on imports to feed our non productive old folk - we'll become more dependent. If you then extrapolate that across other sectors now with higher wages per employee but lower overall output due to fewer available employees you very soon have a shrinking economy with lower tax take and less incentive to invest. If we want to avoid this then I'm afraid our leaders need to be far more proactive have a far more detailed plan and be far more interventionist than the have so far shown themselves willing. And strictly between you and me I just don't believe the competence and wherewithall is actully there. *No-one said foreign labour has to be cheap labour. As I have repeatedly point out the Indepedent twists the facts to their anti Brexit stance. As I have pointed out before (see a couple of posts above) the wastage of food by farmers, distributors and supermarkets is massive, fostered by the EU CAP which encourages over production. Now when crop wastage occurs, Brexit is to blame. You seem to believe in an EU where huge numbers of South and East European citizens have to leave their homelands to find work. A system where east European doctors leave their homelands to stack shelves in UK supermarkets. Is that your European dream? The Romanian health service in in state of collapse due to health workers leaving, but never mind, freedom of movement is more important. The UK population will continue to grow through immigration, not freedom of movement. The vast majority of immigration in 2019 was from non EU countries, over 250,000. The pandemic had arrested that but it will return, the Telegraph are merely picking up a freak statistic due to the pandemic. Engineers are working on methods to harvest crops with machinery. Farmers are investing heavily in things like vertical farming. Don't you think it's strange we rely on huge amounts of food in our shops from smaller countries with similar climates like The Netherlands, Belgium, and Ireland? Now we are out of the EU, we can import from outside the EU for food that is not limited by quotas or tariffs. We can help poor African countries who are desperate to grow their economies. www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/august2020So: You can quote stuff but if someone else does then if you doesn't fit you narrative it doesn't count? You believe in a Europe where rather than people moving to find work they should stay at home in poverty and unemployment. You believe that the answer to food productivity is vertical gardening because you've seen one tv artice from an industrial estate in teeside growing herbs. You want to see the countryside covered in polytunnels. You want to increase the foodmiles food travels when it can be sourced more locally. You believe this government will relent on the need for immigration when it has displayed no inclination whatsoever. Not in the world I live in it won't. Where I do agree with you is that we overproduce and waste too much food - I worked in food retail too long not to know that - but market forces won't change that - the Great British Public is far too hardwired to choice, convenience and cheap food. There would be food riots first.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Oct 5, 2021 12:14:50 GMT
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 5, 2021 13:05:52 GMT
As I have repeatedly point out the Indepedent twists the facts to their anti Brexit stance. As I have pointed out before (see a couple of posts above) the wastage of food by farmers, distributors and supermarkets is massive, fostered by the EU CAP which encourages over production. Now when crop wastage occurs, Brexit is to blame. You seem to believe in an EU where huge numbers of South and East European citizens have to leave their homelands to find work. A system where east European doctors leave their homelands to stack shelves in UK supermarkets. Is that your European dream? The Romanian health service in in state of collapse due to health workers leaving, but never mind, freedom of movement is more important. The UK population will continue to grow through immigration, not freedom of movement. The vast majority of immigration in 2019 was from non EU countries, over 250,000. The pandemic had arrested that but it will return, the Telegraph are merely picking up a freak statistic due to the pandemic. Engineers are working on methods to harvest crops with machinery. Farmers are investing heavily in things like vertical farming. Don't you think it's strange we rely on huge amounts of food in our shops from smaller countries with similar climates like The Netherlands, Belgium, and Ireland? Now we are out of the EU, we can import from outside the EU for food that is not limited by quotas or tariffs. We can help poor African countries who are desperate to grow their economies. www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/august2020So: You can quote stuff but if someone else does then if you doesn't fit you narrative it doesn't count? You believe in a Europe where rather than people moving to find work they should stay at home in poverty and unemployment. You believe that the answer to food productivity is vertical gardening because you've seen one tv artice from an industrial estate in teeside growing herbs. You want to see the countryside covered in polytunnels. You want to increase the foodmiles food travels when it can be sourced more locally. You believe this government will relent on the need for immigration when it has displayed no inclination whatsoever. Not in the world I live in it won't. Where I do agree with you is that we overproduce and waste too much food - I worked in food retail too long not to know that - but market forces won't change that - the Great British Public is far too hardwired to choice, convenience and cheap food. There would be food riots first. To take your points in turn: Yes, if the quote is from a biased source like the Independant. I invariably don't quote biased sources but have slipped up a few times. The Independant and Guardian are still on an anti Brexit mission and print distortions. I believe in a Europe of sovereign states with their own currency. With each country having full employment, not the disaster created by the EU , where the Euro is destroying countries like Greece. You can have free trade and reciprocal arrangements like we have had with Ireland for a century, without a Parliament, Commission, ECOJ, etc. There are a whole range of investments in agriculture apart from vertical farming which I quoted as an example. We have had automatic milking of cows for decades, robotics are being introduced, satnav control of tractors, the list is endless. But investment will not happen if farmers can resort to cheap labour. Wake up, polytunnels are highly productive and mean less land used or less importation and fewer food miles. The countryside is being covered with windmills and solar panels. I believe the UK can produce its own frozen potato products, instead of relying on 70% coming from Belgium, ditto tomatoes from Holland and Poland. It's membership of the EU that has driven up the importation of food and food miles. The government has effectively stopped EU freedom of movement. There is no block on immigration of people to fill jobs on the shortage list. How has leaving the EU affected immigration from Australia or India, etc.? One advantage of the UK constitution that so many on this MB seem to despise is that Johnson & Co. will not be round for ever; we can throw them out. You cannot remove the EU Commission who draw up all EU legislation. Germany has had an election, and now German politicians are negotiating with each other to decide who will actually run the country, that no matter what coalition they come up with will be dominated by Germany's commerce and big business. We have taken our country back from Brussels and it is time to build a society that we want. But that has to be paid for and it never will with a > £60billion pa trade deficit wilcthe EU.
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Oct 5, 2021 13:48:34 GMT
So: You can quote stuff but if someone else does then if you doesn't fit you narrative it doesn't count? You believe in a Europe where rather than people moving to find work they should stay at home in poverty and unemployment. You believe that the answer to food productivity is vertical gardening because you've seen one tv artice from an industrial estate in teeside growing herbs. You want to see the countryside covered in polytunnels. You want to increase the foodmiles food travels when it can be sourced more locally. You believe this government will relent on the need for immigration when it has displayed no inclination whatsoever. Not in the world I live in it won't. Where I do agree with you is that we overproduce and waste too much food - I worked in food retail too long not to know that - but market forces won't change that - the Great British Public is far too hardwired to choice, convenience and cheap food. There would be food riots first. To take your points in turn: Yes, if the quote is from a biased source like the Independant. I invariably don't quote biased sources but have slipped up a few times. The Independant and Guardian are still on an anti Brexit mission and print distortions. I believe in a Europe of sovereign states with their own currency. With each country having full employment, not the disaster created by the EU , where the Euro is destroying countries like Greece. You can have free trade and reciprocal arrangements like we have had with Ireland for a century, without a Parliament, Commission, ECOJ, etc. There are a whole range of investments in agriculture apart from vertical farming which I quoted as an example. We have had automatic milking of cows for decades, robotics are being introduced, satnav control of tractors, the list is endless. But investment will not happen if farmers can resort to cheap labour. Wake up, polytunnels are highly productive and mean less land used or less importation and fewer food miles. The countryside is being covered with windmills and solar panels. I believe the UK can produce its own frozen potato products, instead of relying on 70% coming from Belgium, ditto tomatoes from Holland and Poland. It's membership of the EU that has driven up the importation of food and food miles. The government has effectively stopped EU freedom of movement. There is no block on immigration of people to fill jobs on the shortage list. How has leaving the EU affected immigration from Australia or India, etc.? One advantage of the UK constitution that so many on this MB seem to despise is that Johnson & Co. will not be round for ever; we can throw them out. You cannot remove the EU Commission who draw up all EU legislation. Germany has had an election, and now German politicians are negotiating with each other to decide who will actually run the country, that no matter what coalition they come up with will be dominated by Germany's commerce and big business. We have taken our country back from Brussels and it is time to build a society that we want. But that has to be paid for and it never will with a > £60billion pa trade deficit wilcthe EU. There really isn't going to be much of a debate if you decide your going to retain the right of veto over what sources can and can't be quoted - I could easily have quoted from the BBC website but no doubt they would have been added to your banned list if it suited (you equally dismissed a Telegraph reference - which has been staunchly pro Brexit because - on this occasion - it didn't suit). I would also have thought you would have steered away from the democracy angle - you've been caught out before - because if you think our FPP two party system with it's wealthy donor financial arrangements and unelected upper house is democratic then you have a different definition of democracy to me. You perhaps also ought to read up on changes Johnson and co are making to things like judicial reviews, rights to protest and boundary changes - all designed to keep him in power - if it were a central American republic we'd be rolling our eyes - I would quote sources but I doubt they'd meet with your approval. Ultimately this is a subject on which I doubt we'll ever agree - we have different world views. It therefore remains to be seen how it plays out - but from where I stand it looks to me that it will get much worse before it ever gets any better.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 5, 2021 15:00:06 GMT
To take your points in turn: Yes, if the quote is from a biased source like the Independant. I invariably don't quote biased sources but have slipped up a few times. The Independant and Guardian are still on an anti Brexit mission and print distortions. I believe in a Europe of sovereign states with their own currency. With each country having full employment, not the disaster created by the EU , where the Euro is destroying countries like Greece. You can have free trade and reciprocal arrangements like we have had with Ireland for a century, without a Parliament, Commission, ECOJ, etc. There are a whole range of investments in agriculture apart from vertical farming which I quoted as an example. We have had automatic milking of cows for decades, robotics are being introduced, satnav control of tractors, the list is endless. But investment will not happen if farmers can resort to cheap labour. Wake up, polytunnels are highly productive and mean less land used or less importation and fewer food miles. The countryside is being covered with windmills and solar panels. I believe the UK can produce its own frozen potato products, instead of relying on 70% coming from Belgium, ditto tomatoes from Holland and Poland. It's membership of the EU that has driven up the importation of food and food miles. The government has effectively stopped EU freedom of movement. There is no block on immigration of people to fill jobs on the shortage list. How has leaving the EU affected immigration from Australia or India, etc.? One advantage of the UK constitution that so many on this MB seem to despise is that Johnson & Co. will not be round for ever; we can throw them out. You cannot remove the EU Commission who draw up all EU legislation. Germany has had an election, and now German politicians are negotiating with each other to decide who will actually run the country, that no matter what coalition they come up with will be dominated by Germany's commerce and big business. We have taken our country back from Brussels and it is time to build a society that we want. But that has to be paid for and it never will with a > £60billion pa trade deficit wilcthe EU. There really isn't going to be much of a debate if you decide your going to retain the right of veto over what sources can and can't be quoted - I could easily have quoted from the BBC website but no doubt they would have been added to your banned list if it suited (you equally dismissed a Telegraph reference - which has been staunchly pro Brexit because - on this occasion - it didn't suit). I would also have thought you would have steered away from the democracy angle - you've been caught out before - because if you think our FPP two party system with it's wealthy donor financial arrangements and unelected upper house is democratic then you have a different definition of democracy to me. You perhaps also ought to read up on changes Johnson and co are making to things like judicial reviews, rights to protest and boundary changes - all designed to keep him in power - if it were a central American republic we'd be rolling our eyes - I would quote sources but I doubt they'd meet with your approval. Ultimately this is a subject on which I doubt we'll ever agree - we have different world views. It therefore remains to be seen how it plays out - but from where I stand it looks to me that it will get much worse before it ever gets any better. You're right I do dismiss quotes from biased sources. The Telegraph stated there had been a drop in UK population for the first time in generations and Brexit gets mentioned - in the middle of a worldwide pandemic when travel has been highly restricted. (Lord give me strength!) Yes you would be wasting your time quoting the BBC which is on my biased list. I'll quote the Evening Standard on what one of the BBC's former longest serving employees said about them after he left: www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-news-john-humphrys-blasts-biased-bbc-for-failing-to-understand-why-people-in-uk-voted-to-leave-eu-a4242956.htmlI don't support our constitution and believed it can be approved, but I do prefer a system where those in power can be removed, which is highly impracticable with proportional representation. I used to support EEC membership and someday something might happen to make me change my mind back; I am not a bigot. Somebody may convince me of the benefits of the EU, but as I am opposed to single currency, remote government, the undue influence of corporate interests, etc. I think it will be a long time off. We have a country with full employment, stable currency and stock market and our own government to manage our affairs through the long road of post pandemic recovery and post EU membership. How long the road will be, I don't know, I expect about 5 years. It is not helped by irresponsible media whipping up a fuel panic, and some people's constant negativity. It also depends on the recovery rate of the rest of the world, and of course there is what Macmillan called "events".
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Post by Seymour Beaver on Oct 5, 2021 16:24:19 GMT
There really isn't going to be much of a debate if you decide your going to retain the right of veto over what sources can and can't be quoted - I could easily have quoted from the BBC website but no doubt they would have been added to your banned list if it suited (you equally dismissed a Telegraph reference - which has been staunchly pro Brexit because - on this occasion - it didn't suit). I would also have thought you would have steered away from the democracy angle - you've been caught out before - because if you think our FPP two party system with it's wealthy donor financial arrangements and unelected upper house is democratic then you have a different definition of democracy to me. You perhaps also ought to read up on changes Johnson and co are making to things like judicial reviews, rights to protest and boundary changes - all designed to keep him in power - if it were a central American republic we'd be rolling our eyes - I would quote sources but I doubt they'd meet with your approval. Ultimately this is a subject on which I doubt we'll ever agree - we have different world views. It therefore remains to be seen how it plays out - but from where I stand it looks to me that it will get much worse before it ever gets any better. You're right I do dismiss quotes from biased sources. The Telegraph stated there had been a drop in UK population for the first time in generations and Brexit gets mentioned - in the middle of a worldwide pandemic when travel has been highly restricted. (Lord give me strength!) Yes you would be wasting your time quoting the BBC which is on my biased list. I'll quote the Evening Standard on what one of the BBC's former longest serving employees said about them after he left: www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/brexit-news-john-humphrys-blasts-biased-bbc-for-failing-to-understand-why-people-in-uk-voted-to-leave-eu-a4242956.htmlI don't support our constitution and believed it can be approved, but I do prefer a system where those in power can be removed, which is highly impracticable with proportional representation. I used to support EEC membership and someday something might happen to make me change my mind back; I am not a bigot. Somebody may convince me of the benefits of the EU, but as I am opposed to single currency, remote government, the undue influence of corporate interests, etc. I think it will be a long time off. We have a country with full employment, stable currency and stock market and our own government to manage our affairs through the long road of post pandemic recovery and post EU membership. How long the road will be, I don't know, I expect about 5 years. It is not helped by irresponsible media whipping up a fuel panic, and some people's constant negativity. It also depends on the recovery rate of the rest of the world, and of course there is what Macmillan called "events". Can't quote the Evening Standard Mr Coke - same proprietor as the Independent. Prohibited reading I'm afraid. And I'm not going to try and convince you -like I said - different world view. However has it occured to yku that you probably won't find anti Brexit articles in pro Brexit publications because - er - they simply don't write them. Confirmational bias.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 5, 2021 18:05:56 GMT
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Post by partickpotter on Oct 5, 2021 20:49:36 GMT
Seems we certainly are rethinking our food… Are we losing our love of classic British dishes?Seems less and less folk haven’t enjoyed some Spotted Dick or had their Toad in a Hole. A shame. Less of a shame, I reckon, is seeing the back of semolina and tapioca.
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Post by mrcoke on Oct 18, 2021 19:55:42 GMT
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Post by harryburrows on Oct 19, 2021 21:53:00 GMT
Seems we certainly are rethinking our food… Are we losing our love of classic British dishes?Seems less and less folk haven’t enjoyed some Spotted Dick or had their Toad in a Hole. A shame. Less of a shame, I reckon, is seeing the back of semolina and tapioca. Its now Tofu in the hole 😉
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 7, 2022 10:30:53 GMT
On the Brexit thread I posted that Aldi is seeking an extra 100 British suppliers this year as well as opening more stores. Morrison's have long had a policy of buying British beef, but have been found guilty of putting "We buy British" signs in their stores with foreign produce under the signs on the shelves. But this is bad news: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59903232Asda choosing not to buy British but buy cheapest. That only drives quality down and puts British farmers out of business, only for prices then to go up in the long term. You could argue that Asda will support third world countries by buying cheaper food on the world market, but my guess it is more likely they will buy EU food grown under artificial light, in heated buildings, subsidised by EU tax payers.
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Post by spitthedog on Jan 7, 2022 10:44:42 GMT
On the Brexit thread I posted that Aldi is seeking an extra 100 British suppliers this year as well as opening more stores. Morrison's have long had a policy of buying British beef, but have been found guilty of putting "We buy British" signs in their stores with foreign produce under the signs on the shelves. But this is bad news: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59903232Asda choosing not to buy British but buy cheapest. That only drives quality down and puts British farmers out of business, only for prices then to go up in the long term. You could argue that Asda will support third world countries by buying cheaper food on the world market, but my guess it is more likely they will buy EU food grown under artificial light, in heated buildings, subsidised by EU tax payers. This is the Government's Trade Bill kicking in isn't it? Allowing cheaper food imports with lower environmental standards which nearly all Tory MPs voted for despite the fact they campaigned in the election and during the Brexit ref on a manifesto of supporting British farmers? The choice for British farmers will be to lower their prices and/or lower their quality.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 7, 2022 11:19:40 GMT
On the Brexit thread I posted that Aldi is seeking an extra 100 British suppliers this year as well as opening more stores. Morrison's have long had a policy of buying British beef, but have been found guilty of putting "We buy British" signs in their stores with foreign produce under the signs on the shelves. But this is bad news: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59903232Asda choosing not to buy British but buy cheapest. That only drives quality down and puts British farmers out of business, only for prices then to go up in the long term. You could argue that Asda will support third world countries by buying cheaper food on the world market, but my guess it is more likely they will buy EU food grown under artificial light, in heated buildings, subsidised by EU tax payers. This is the Government's Trade Bill kicking in isn't it? Allowing cheaper food imports with lower environmental standards which nearly all Tory MPs voted for despite the fact they campaigned in the election and during the Brexit ref on a manifesto of supporting British farmers? The choice for British farmers will be to lower their prices and/or lower their quality. Read the article. It's talking about Asda buying from Ireland, which last time I looked is still part of the EU. The article also lists those supermarkets who have a buy British policy. Regarding the government trade bill, please advise what cheaper food with lower environmental standards has been imported. The choice is yours, not just farmers; buy British or buy from the EU which is subsidised through the CAP and which damages the environment. All my local shops in North Yorkshire use local farm suppliers. There is a farmers market each month, and local farmers outlet shops and stalls.
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Post by mrcoke on Jan 9, 2022 13:26:24 GMT
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