|
Post by lordb on Mar 25, 2021 12:07:52 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56496069The women also described their anonymity as a "double-edged sword, because it means we are faceless and voiceless". They criticised the politicisation of the saga, which they said had led people to "ascribe motives to us that fit a particular theory that they have". And they said the "directed abuse and misrepresentation" on social media had been "completely crushing". Let's not forget the victims of unwanted sexual advances by the previous first minister in this saga of course the case was not proven but he acknowledges to being "no saint". His own lawyer of course probably thought this was an understatement. It’s a tawdry tale that neither Salmond or Sturgeon emerge from with any credit. That both seem to be carrying on regardless is truly staggering. politicians of all flavours seem to resign much less than they used to, in the past even the dodgiest bastards would quit now they just carry on
|
|
|
Post by felonious on Mar 25, 2021 13:06:19 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56496069The women also described their anonymity as a "double-edged sword, because it means we are faceless and voiceless". They criticised the politicisation of the saga, which they said had led people to "ascribe motives to us that fit a particular theory that they have". And they said the "directed abuse and misrepresentation" on social media had been "completely crushing". Let's not forget the victims of unwanted sexual advances by the previous first minister in this saga of course the case was not proven but he acknowledges to being "no saint". His own lawyer of course probably thought this was an understatement. It’s a tawdry tale that neither Salmond or Sturgeon emerge from with any credit. That both seem to be carrying on regardless is truly staggering. Surely the politicisation indicated by the victims also points a finger towards Scottish Conservative, Scottish Labour and the Scottish Liberals? One could argue that both Sturgeon and the SNP are victims of Salmond's behaviour.
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Mar 25, 2021 13:13:53 GMT
It’s a tawdry tale that neither Salmond or Sturgeon emerge from with any credit. That both seem to be carrying on regardless is truly staggering. Surely the politicisation indicated by the victims also points a finger towards Scottish Conservative, Scottish Labour and the Scottish Liberals? One could argue that both Sturgeon and the SNP are victims of Salmond's behaviour. I don’t think there is much of a finger pointing anywhere than at the SNP - those opposition parties are right on the periphery of the matter. As far as Sturgeon and the SNP being a victim, well... that’s how it started. But then Sturgeon and co started digging that hole and kept digging and digging and digging which meant they ended up in as big a mess as Salmond.
|
|
|
Post by felonious on Mar 25, 2021 13:26:28 GMT
Surely the politicisation indicated by the victims also points a finger towards Scottish Conservative, Scottish Labour and the Scottish Liberals? One could argue that both Sturgeon and the SNP are victims of Salmond's behaviour. I don’t think there is much of a finger pointing anywhere than at the SNP - those opposition parties are right on the periphery of the matter. As far as Sturgeon and the SNP being a victim, well... that’s how it started. But then Sturgeon and co started digging that hole and kept digging and digging and digging which meant they ended up in as big a mess as Salmond. The women say that the trigger point was #Metoo. You know how it goes Partick ignore it and it's a cover up especially in the firestorm that followed the Metoo movement. I've no idea how Salmond got away with his court case apart from lack of hard evidence you'd think that the number of women coming forward would have meant for something. Not proven eh. The opposition parties have just voted on partisan lines. Are you really saying that no political gain against the case of independence has been sought by the various Unionist parties?
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Mar 25, 2021 13:56:33 GMT
I don’t think there is much of a finger pointing anywhere than at the SNP - those opposition parties are right on the periphery of the matter. As far as Sturgeon and the SNP being a victim, well... that’s how it started. But then Sturgeon and co started digging that hole and kept digging and digging and digging which meant they ended up in as big a mess as Salmond. The women say that the trigger point was #Metoo. You know how it goes Partick ignore it and it's a cover up especially in the firestorm that followed the Metoo movement. I've no idea how Salmond got away with his court case apart from lack of hard evidence you'd think that the number of women coming forward would have meant for something. Not proven eh. The opposition parties have just voted on partisan lines. Are you really saying that no political gain against the case of independence has been sought by the various Unionist parties? Yes indeed #Metoo certainly played its part in encouraging women to come forward. As regards Salmond’s acquittal, a jury found him not guilty of the charges. A jury with a majority of women if I recall correctly. The court case wasn’t about Salmond’s character though, just about whether he had committed specific offences. We have to accept he is innocent. We don’t have to accept he is a nice person though. He isn’t. As his own lawyer was heard saying... Salmond is a bully and a sex pest. When you say the opposition voted on party lines, you should also acknowledge that the SNP did likewise. As mentioned earlier, there was one independent member on the committee who sided with the opposition. Read into that what you will. As to seeking political gain, of course parties will look to maximise opportunities to do that. But, that is really a minor dimension to the Salmond saga which is principally about the current and former first minister and SNP leader and her government.
|
|
|
Post by felonious on Mar 25, 2021 14:17:14 GMT
The women say that the trigger point was #Metoo. You know how it goes Partick ignore it and it's a cover up especially in the firestorm that followed the Metoo movement. I've no idea how Salmond got away with his court case apart from lack of hard evidence you'd think that the number of women coming forward would have meant for something. Not proven eh. The opposition parties have just voted on partisan lines. Are you really saying that no political gain against the case of independence has been sought by the various Unionist parties? Yes indeed #Metoo certainly played its part in encouraging women to come forward. As regards Salmond’s acquittal, a jury found him not guilty of the charges. A jury with a majority of women if I recall correctly. The court case wasn’t about Salmond’s character though, just about whether he had committed specific offences. We have to accept he is innocent. We don’t have to accept he is a nice person though. He isn’t. As his own lawyer was heard saying... Salmond is a bully and a sex pest. When you say the opposition voted on party lines, you should also acknowledge that the SNP did likewise. As mentioned earlier, there was one independent member on the committee who sided with the opposition. Read into that what you will. As to seeking political gain, of course parties will look to maximise opportunities to do that. But, that is really a minor dimension to the Salmond saga which is principally about the current and former first minister and SNP leader and her government. Most of the charges were on not guilty however one charge of sexual assault with intent to rape was not proven. I still find it astonishing that 9 separate women were not believed by a jury but I suppose it's his word against all of theirs. Intent to rape and sexual assault are hardly minor accusations I can't imagine how you could find 9 separate women confused about the situation they found themselves in. Out of interest do you know what political persuasion does the independent come from?
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Mar 25, 2021 14:58:55 GMT
Yes indeed #Metoo certainly played its part in encouraging women to come forward. As regards Salmond’s acquittal, a jury found him not guilty of the charges. A jury with a majority of women if I recall correctly. The court case wasn’t about Salmond’s character though, just about whether he had committed specific offences. We have to accept he is innocent. We don’t have to accept he is a nice person though. He isn’t. As his own lawyer was heard saying... Salmond is a bully and a sex pest. When you say the opposition voted on party lines, you should also acknowledge that the SNP did likewise. As mentioned earlier, there was one independent member on the committee who sided with the opposition. Read into that what you will. As to seeking political gain, of course parties will look to maximise opportunities to do that. But, that is really a minor dimension to the Salmond saga which is principally about the current and former first minister and SNP leader and her government. Most of the charges were on not guilty however one charge of sexual assault with intent to rape was not proven. I still find it astonishing that 9 separate women were not believed by a jury but I suppose it's his word against all of theirs. Intent to rape and sexual assault are hardly minor accusations I can't imagine how you could find 9 separate women confused about the situation they found themselves in. Out of interest do you know what political persuasion does the independent come from? I was surprised he was acquitted. Like you, the fact there were so charges made me think, wrongly obviously, he would be found guilty. But each case was considered on its own strengths and none was strong enough to secure a conviction. So he is innocent of all those charges. (I suspect the court of public opinion isn't much in favour of him though - excluding his fan base of course, which is not insubstantial). The independent on that committee is Andy Wightman. He was formerly a Green so has been generally supportive of the SNP; he voted for independence in the 2014 referendum.
|
|
|
Post by Clayton Wood on Mar 26, 2021 14:47:51 GMT
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Mar 26, 2021 15:45:50 GMT
Not a big surprise. It’s also quite a good move if SNP supporters give them their “list” vote. (We have two votes under the electoral system up here, one for a constituency, the second for the list which makes sure the pr balance is achieved). It’s also an interesting reflection on Scottish politics that a grubby, dirty old man ( a bully and a sex pest as his own QC described him) can set up a political party with the expectation of achieving some political success. Independence transcends all.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 26, 2021 16:38:46 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56496069The women also described their anonymity as a "double-edged sword, because it means we are faceless and voiceless". They criticised the politicisation of the saga, which they said had led people to "ascribe motives to us that fit a particular theory that they have". And they said the "directed abuse and misrepresentation" on social media had been "completely crushing". Let's not forget the victims of unwanted sexual advances by the previous first minister in this saga of course the case was not proven but he acknowledges to being "no saint". His own lawyer of course probably thought this was an understatement. It’s a tawdry tale that neither Salmond or Sturgeon emerge from with any credit. That both seem to be carrying on regardless is truly staggering. Be so good as to point me in the direction of your response to Priti Patel actually being found guilty of something following an independent investigation, as opposed to these two who have both been cleared by similar separate independent processes, one in a court of law
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 26, 2021 16:43:55 GMT
Not a big surprise. It’s also quite a good move if SNP supporters give them their “list” vote. (We have two votes under the electoral system up here, one for a constituency, the second for the list which makes sure the pr balance is achieved). It’s also an interesting reflection on Scottish politics that a grubby, dirty old man ( a bully and a sex pest as his own QC described him) can set up a political party with the expectation of achieving some political success. Independence transcends all. This could be the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Whoever you choose to side with on the independence front, both Sturgeon and Salmond are for independence from the Westminster elite, and if they manage to work together for that cause and be seen to have buried the hatchet, it could be dramatically bad for Unionists. Cheerio, Scotland? What a time we live in! With this, Covid, Brexit and Trump, these last five years or more will be studied for some time by historians to come, assuming we haven't destroyed civilisation through climate change by then which is a distinct possibility, and still actually have historians!
|
|
|
Post by chad on Mar 26, 2021 17:35:35 GMT
Not a big surprise. It’s also quite a good move if SNP supporters give them their “list” vote. (We have two votes under the electoral system up here, one for a constituency, the second for the list which makes sure the pr balance is achieved). It’s also an interesting reflection on Scottish politics that a grubby, dirty old man ( a bully and a sex pest as his own QC described him) can set up a political party with the expectation of achieving some political success. Independence transcends all. This could be the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Whoever you choose to side with on the independence front, both Sturgeon and Salmond are for independence from the Westminster elite, and if they manage to work together for that cause and be seen to have buried the hatchet, it could be dramatically bad for Unionists. Cheerio, Scotland? What a time we live in! With this, Covid, Brexit and Trump, these last five years or more will be studied for some time by historians to come, assuming we haven't destroyed civilisation through climate change by then which is a distinct possibility, and still actually have historians! I think there’s only one place Sturgeon would bury the hatchet where Salmons concerned 😊
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Mar 26, 2021 17:43:02 GMT
Not a big surprise. It’s also quite a good move if SNP supporters give them their “list” vote. (We have two votes under the electoral system up here, one for a constituency, the second for the list which makes sure the pr balance is achieved). It’s also an interesting reflection on Scottish politics that a grubby, dirty old man ( a bully and a sex pest as his own QC described him) can set up a political party with the expectation of achieving some political success. Independence transcends all. This could be the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Whoever you choose to side with on the independence front, both Sturgeon and Salmond are for independence from the Westminster elite, and if they manage to work together for that cause and be seen to have buried the hatchet, it could be dramatically bad for Unionists. Cheerio, Scotland? What a time we live in! With this, Covid, Brexit and Trump, these last five years or more will be studied for some time by historians to come, assuming we haven't destroyed civilisation through climate change by then which is a distinct possibility, and still actually have historians! I see you managed to get Brexit in for a change fingers crossed Scexit might take your mind off it after 5 years of obsession
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 26, 2021 18:25:40 GMT
This could be the final nail in the coffin of the Union. Whoever you choose to side with on the independence front, both Sturgeon and Salmond are for independence from the Westminster elite, and if they manage to work together for that cause and be seen to have buried the hatchet, it could be dramatically bad for Unionists. Cheerio, Scotland? What a time we live in! With this, Covid, Brexit and Trump, these last five years or more will be studied for some time by historians to come, assuming we haven't destroyed civilisation through climate change by then which is a distinct possibility, and still actually have historians! I see you managed to get Brexit in for a change fingers crossed Scexit might take your mind off it after 5 years of obsession I doubt it, I'm one of those strange folk who's quite keen to see how it all pans out for the UK, including whether it destroys the UK as we know it, rather than just burying my head in the sand, shrugging and saying let it go!
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Mar 26, 2021 18:28:00 GMT
I see you managed to get Brexit in for a change fingers crossed Scexit might take your mind off it after 5 years of obsession I doubt it, I'm one of those strange folk who's quite keen to see how it all pans out for the UK, including whether it destroys the UK as we know it, rather than just burying my head in the sand, shrugging and saying let it go! You’re strange. No doubt about that.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 26, 2021 18:30:48 GMT
I doubt it, I'm one of those strange folk who's quite keen to see how it all pans out for the UK, including whether it destroys the UK as we know it, rather than just burying my head in the sand, shrugging and saying let it go! You’re strange. No doubt about that. Tut tut, you mustn't play the man, you know! Any news on how you reacted to Priti Patel being found guilty of breaking the ministerial code?
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Mar 26, 2021 18:34:24 GMT
You’re strange. No doubt about that. Tut tut, you mustn't play the man, you know! Any news on how you reacted to Priti Patel being found guilty of breaking the ministerial code? No. I ignored that fatuous question. Same way I’m going to ignore your fatuous follow up to this post.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 26, 2021 18:38:26 GMT
Tut tut, you mustn't play the man, you know! Any news on how you reacted to Priti Patel being found guilty of breaking the ministerial code? No. I ignored that fatuous question. Same way I’m going to ignore your fatuous follow up to this post. Oh dear. It's Friday, partick, loosen up a tad I think it's safe to assume that your finding it "truly staggering" that Sturgeon and Salmond carry on despite both being independently cleared of the various 'charges' which would have resulted in them resigning in one case, potentially going to prison in the other, was not matched in any way by your reaction, if indeed there was one at all!, to Priti Patel actually being found guilty by an independent inquiry, and Bluffer choosing to ignore it. Says absolutely all we need to know about the Tory bias you apply to everything!
|
|
|
Post by crapslinger on Mar 26, 2021 18:44:42 GMT
I see you managed to get Brexit in for a change fingers crossed Scexit might take your mind off it after 5 years of obsession I doubt it, I'm one of those strange folk who's quite keen to see how it all pans out for the UK, including whether it destroys the UK as we know it, rather than just burying my head in the sand, shrugging and saying let it go!
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 26, 2021 21:10:21 GMT
If only there was a muslim version for you, Crappy!
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 27, 2021 13:10:29 GMT
It'll be interesting to see the first polls in Scotland now that Salmond has started his new party. Not immediately apparent how it'll affect the returns because of the constituency and list voting. The Telegraph is, of course, painting it as a civil war in Scotland but it might actually be more damaging ultimately to the Unionist parties... This is interesting: Scottish Cons, LD and Lab working together... www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-56548830Not sure if it was this thread or the government is a shambles one where I said the UK parties should do the same to counter Bluffer's govt. It's the same approach to a different binary choice: right wing or non-right wing in the UK govt; independence or unionism in the Scottish govt.
|
|
|
Post by felonious on Mar 27, 2021 15:35:29 GMT
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Mar 28, 2021 8:13:05 GMT
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Mar 28, 2021 9:02:48 GMT
Just watched the co leader of the Scottish greens on marr this morning Strikes me as almost as vile and arrogant as sturgeon As for the Ross idea it strikes me as a good idea especially for the first past the post part of the vote As I’m sure there are areas where the liberals labour and Tory’s are strong but could well be beaten in seats as the union vote is split
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Mar 28, 2021 9:32:31 GMT
Just watched the co leader of the Scottish greens on marr this morning Strikes me as almost as vile and arrogant as sturgeon As for the Ross idea it strikes me as a good idea especially for the first past the post part of the vote As I’m sure there are areas where the liberals labour and Tory’s are strong but could well be beaten in seats as the union vote is split I’m not a fan of Patrick Harvie. I think you’ve summed him up rather well. Ross’s idea is, politically, a dumb one. Labour feel, wrongly, they have been damaged in the past due to their relationship in the Better Together campaign. They see that being one of the reasons why they lost ground to the Tories in recent years. (They lost ground because their leaders were rubbish!). Sarwar wants to keep visible distance between them. Ross should know this. All he has done is shown he has poor judgement. And not for the first time... he jumped the gun in calling for a no confidence vote on Sturgeon. What Labour are hoping is that traditional Labour voters who had deserted them in the sectarianisation of Scottish politics of recent years will come back now that they have (what looks like) a competent leader. They want to frame the election around politics - not nationalism. Which is what the SNP and Tories want to do. That may be a mistake. But could work if enough Scottish voters are tired of talk of independence.
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Mar 28, 2021 9:45:40 GMT
Just watched the co leader of the Scottish greens on marr this morning Strikes me as almost as vile and arrogant as sturgeon As for the Ross idea it strikes me as a good idea especially for the first past the post part of the vote As I’m sure there are areas where the liberals labour and Tory’s are strong but could well be beaten in seats as the union vote is split I’m not a fan of Patrick Harvie. I think you’ve summed him up rather well. Ross’s idea is, politically, a dumb one. Labour feel, wrongly, they have been damaged in the past due to their relationship in the Better Together campaign. They see that being one of the reasons why they lost ground to the Tories in recent years. (They lost ground because their leaders were rubbish!). Sarwar wants to keep visible distance between them. Ross should know this. All he has done is shown he has poor judgement. And not for the first time... he jumped the gun in calling for a no confidence vote on Sturgeon. What Labour are hoping is that traditional Labour voters who had deserted them in the sectarianisation of Scottish politics of recent years will come back now that they have (what looks like) a competent leader. They want to frame the election around politics - not nationalism. Which is what the SNP and Tories want to do. That may be a mistake. But could work if enough Scottish voters are tired of talk of independence. It was the female leader
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Mar 28, 2021 9:49:38 GMT
I’m not a fan of Patrick Harvie. I think you’ve summed him up rather well. Ross’s idea is, politically, a dumb one. Labour feel, wrongly, they have been damaged in the past due to their relationship in the Better Together campaign. They see that being one of the reasons why they lost ground to the Tories in recent years. (They lost ground because their leaders were rubbish!). Sarwar wants to keep visible distance between them. Ross should know this. All he has done is shown he has poor judgement. And not for the first time... he jumped the gun in calling for a no confidence vote on Sturgeon. What Labour are hoping is that traditional Labour voters who had deserted them in the sectarianisation of Scottish politics of recent years will come back now that they have (what looks like) a competent leader. They want to frame the election around politics - not nationalism. Which is what the SNP and Tories want to do. That may be a mistake. But could work if enough Scottish voters are tired of talk of independence. It was the female leader Oh... don’t know her. Sounds like she is cut from the same cloth!
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Mar 28, 2021 9:54:59 GMT
Oh... don’t know her. Sounds like she is cut from the same cloth! Well I wouldn’t vote for her whatever the party she represented
|
|
|
Post by partickpotter on Mar 28, 2021 9:59:37 GMT
Oh... don’t know her. Sounds like she is cut from the same cloth! Well I wouldn’t vote for her whatever the party she represented And nor shall I. I’m leaning towards voting Labour in this election. As ever, it seems I have to choose the least worse option.
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Mar 28, 2021 10:02:10 GMT
Well I wouldn’t vote for her whatever the party she represented And nor shall I. I’m leaning towards voting Labour in this election. As ever, it seems I have to choose the least worse option. As long as you vote that’s the important thing
|
|