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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 19, 2021 9:13:36 GMT
Nobody cares about that. The current Salmond spat is just a he said she said load of bollocks in most people's eyes - a falling out between old political friends and rivals, the gloves probably coming off on the back of Sturgeon's refusal to help Salmond out when he wanted the investigation into his 'touchy feely' nature conveniently dropped, would be my guess. No more, no less. Whether or not she broke the ministerial code will matter more, but as I said, a precedent has been firmly set south of the border to stick two fingers up to what anyone concludes about breaking the ministerial code these days Personally I think it’s more down to sturgeon and her cronies trying to get a innocent man jailed and smeared and out of the way For nothing more than supposed political gain Why? What political gain?
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Post by partickpotter on Mar 19, 2021 9:31:13 GMT
Personally I think it’s more down to sturgeon and her cronies trying to get a innocent man jailed and smeared and out of the way For nothing more than supposed political gain Why? What political gain? More like political survival than political gain at this point. This whole saga puts me in mind of the first law of holes. Remember the origin of this was allegations of sexual misconduct against Alec Salmond. And let’s not forget that although Salmond was cleared of sexual assault charges his own QC described him after the trial as being a bully and a sex pest. He is a deeply unpleasant man. Anyway, Sturgeon had to do something about this. Particularly as she was well aware that significant numbers of one group of people, women, who voted No in the 2014 referendum were put off by Salmond’s bombastic, macho posturing. This was now both a threat and an opportunity. The threat was to alienate even more women from the Indie cause if she backed Salmond, the opportunity was to attract more people to the side of Independence. The question was what to do. The answer to distance the SNP from Salmond. The problem was how to do that. Unfortunately for Sturgeon they got those first steps wrong and, please excuse me mixing the metaphor, started digging that proverbial hole which they’ve kept digging and digging. And ended up ever deeper in the hole.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 19, 2021 12:52:22 GMT
More like political survival than political gain at this point. This whole saga puts me in mind of the first law of holes. Remember the origin of this was allegations of sexual misconduct against Alec Salmond. And let’s not forget that although Salmond was cleared of sexual assault charges his own QC described him after the trial as being a bully and a sex pest. He is a deeply unpleasant man. Anyway, Sturgeon had to do something about this. Particularly as she was well aware that significant numbers of one group of people, women, who voted No in the 2014 referendum were put off by Salmond’s bombastic, macho posturing. This was now both a threat and an opportunity. The threat was to alienate even more women from the Indie cause if she backed Salmond, the opportunity was to attract more people to the side of Independence. The question was what to do. The answer to distance the SNP from Salmond. The problem was how to do that. Unfortunately for Sturgeon they got those first steps wrong and, please excuse me mixing the metaphor, started digging that proverbial hole which they’ve kept digging and digging. And ended up ever deeper in the hole. Call me a cynic if you will, but I suspect that there was little or no axe to grind between the pair of them, up until the point where Salmond was accused and then charged with sex offences and probably contacted Sturgeon to see if she could get them reduced, dropped, whatever, hence all the meetings that took place. At which point she had to make a decision - risk alienating and creating an enemy of Salmond by simply stepping back from the judicial process or risk alienating Scottish women in general by being seen to interfere on his behalf.
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Post by wagsastokie on Mar 19, 2021 13:12:48 GMT
More like political survival than political gain at this point. This whole saga puts me in mind of the first law of holes. Remember the origin of this was allegations of sexual misconduct against Alec Salmond. And let’s not forget that although Salmond was cleared of sexual assault charges his own QC described him after the trial as being a bully and a sex pest. He is a deeply unpleasant man. Anyway, Sturgeon had to do something about this. Particularly as she was well aware that significant numbers of one group of people, women, who voted No in the 2014 referendum were put off by Salmond’s bombastic, macho posturing. This was now both a threat and an opportunity. The threat was to alienate even more women from the Indie cause if she backed Salmond, the opportunity was to attract more people to the side of Independence. The question was what to do. The answer to distance the SNP from Salmond. The problem was how to do that. Unfortunately for Sturgeon they got those first steps wrong and, please excuse me mixing the metaphor, started digging that proverbial hole which they’ve kept digging and digging. And ended up ever deeper in the hole. Call me a cynic if you will, but I suspect that there was little or no axe to grind between the pair of them, up until the point where Salmond was accused and then charged with sex offences and probably contacted Sturgeon to see if she could get them reduced, dropped, whatever, hence all the meetings that took place. At which point she had to make a decision - risk alienating and creating an enemy of Salmond by simply stepping back from the judicial process or risk alienating Scottish women in general by being seen to interfere on his behalf. If only sturgeon and her cronies had just stepped back and let justice take place she might not be in so much shit She actively took the side of the complainants and actually sort more out
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Post by partickpotter on Mar 19, 2021 14:42:00 GMT
Charming indeed...
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Post by thevoid on Mar 20, 2021 11:17:42 GMT
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Mar 22, 2021 16:44:33 GMT
Did not break the ministerial code 🤔
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Post by prestwichpotter on Mar 22, 2021 16:48:28 GMT
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Post by flea79 on Mar 22, 2021 16:57:12 GMT
not kept up with this too much but isnt the person who has done this report an ex msp or some connection to the SNP? tbh the whole thing stinks, i think we should give Krankie her way and see how they get on by the time they have cobbled together enough change for a trip to Brussels the EU will have collapsed anyway!
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Post by supersimonstainrod on Mar 22, 2021 17:11:29 GMT
Fandabidozi...
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Post by xchpotter on Mar 22, 2021 17:14:05 GMT
So is this a different enquiry or the same one that was reported to be about to say she had misled Parliament?
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Post by felonious on Mar 22, 2021 17:16:34 GMT
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 22, 2021 17:18:51 GMT
Would she have gone if she was found to break the Ministerial code? Ministers in the UK Government don't have to.
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Post by xchpotter on Mar 22, 2021 17:25:44 GMT
Would she have gone if she was found to break the Ministerial code? Ministers in the UK Government don't have to. Was going to say the same.😂
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Post by partickpotter on Mar 22, 2021 18:12:34 GMT
Would she have gone if she was found to break the Ministerial code? Ministers in the UK Government don't have to. I doubt it. But it’s academic now. The loser out of this affair are the Tories. They gambled on Sturgeon being found guilty so the no confidence motion would be credible even if it was defeated in a vote. Now it will just look foolish. The undoubted winner is the new Labour leader who was wise enough to say nothing. Expect Labour to abstain in the NC vote. Hard to judge how this affects Sturgeon. It reminds me about when Alex Salmond was cleared of sexual assault charges. His victory was tainted by the revelation that he is a bully and a sex pest. Sturgeon’s victory also comes with a heavy price that she is running a shambolic government; lot of folk have supported the SNP based on their perceived competence rather than a strong belief in independence. Her leadership test will come in the upcoming election when she needs to deliver a majority. Anything else will be seen as failure. At least we don’t have long to wait for the outcome of that.
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Post by felonious on Mar 22, 2021 19:00:49 GMT
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 22, 2021 19:15:09 GMT
Would she have gone if she was found to break the Ministerial code? Ministers in the UK Government don't have to. Was going to say the same.😂 Probably would have yes. Although it doesn't stop ministers breaching the code in the Tory govt and staying in post - one Priti Patel for example. She stayed. The independent assessor who found she had breached the code resigned instead! You just have to laugh at the brazen disregard for rules by these, don't you! Sturgeon wrote the foreword to the Ministerial Code itself, which says the letter and the spirit should be abided by and those who don't will be expected to resign. This was an independent inquiry which has cleared her of doing so. Whether this plays out in six weeks time at the polls remains to be seen, but in the end she was cleared and the previous spat between her and Salmond was just he said she said stuff.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Mar 22, 2021 21:43:51 GMT
Would she have gone if she was found to break the Ministerial code? Ministers in the UK Government don't have to. I doubt it. But it’s academic now. The loser out of this affair are the Tories. They gambled on Sturgeon being found guilty so the no confidence motion would be credible even if it was defeated in a vote. Now it will just look foolish. The undoubted winner is the new Labour leader who was wise enough to say nothing. Expect Labour to abstain in the NC vote. Hard to judge how this affects Sturgeon. It reminds me about when Alex Salmond was cleared of sexual assault charges. His victory was tainted by the revelation that he is a bully and a sex pest. Sturgeon’s victory also comes with a heavy price that she is running a shambolic government; lot of folk have supported the SNP based on their perceived competence rather than a strong belief in independence. Her leadership test will come in the upcoming election when she needs to deliver a majority. Anything else will be seen as failure. At least we don’t have long to wait for the outcome of that. Will be interesting to see how their vote shares goes in the opinion polls over the next couple of weeks. They certainly lost 5-10% in the polls while all this was going on, and I guess we'll have some sort of indicator of how much of that was based on this inquiry and how much were other factors.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 22, 2021 22:18:34 GMT
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Post by noustie on Mar 23, 2021 12:00:48 GMT
James Hamilton doesn’t seem particularly enamoured with his own report after it was given to Scottish Government to redact and even casts some dispersions as to its own validity: www.scotsman.com/news/politics/hamilton-expresses-frustration-at-redactions-in-sturgeon-report-3174843He said: “I am deeply frustrated that applicable court orders will have the effect of preventing the full publication of a report which fulfils my remit and which I believe it would be in the public interest to publish. “A key part of the report necessarily refers to certain events prior to 29 March 2018, which are highly significant for understanding who was aware of complaints made against Mr Salmond and what they did with that information. "These discussions set in train a series of events which ultimately led to the meeting between the First Minister and the Former Chief of Staff on 29 March and the subsequent contacts between the First Minister and Mr Salmond. "It is also essential to a full and true understanding of what happened to be able to discuss fully why, how and by whom these meetings were arranged.” He added: “I understand that in order to comply with certain court orders it will be necessary to make redactions to the enclosed report before publication. “In particular, I have been advised by my own independent legal adviser that nothing may be published which could identify certain particular individuals, some of whom had a significant role in certain events. “A redacted report that effectively erases the role of any such individual in the matters investigated in the report cannot be properly understood by those reading it, and presents an incomplete and even at times misleading version of what happened.” In his own covering letter on the Government site he notes that he provided a full report and it was the responsibility of the Scottish Government what to redact– how in any sane world can that be considered independent? There will be the continued argument over whether the court orders were to protect the accusers from persecution or prosecution but doubt it’ll have much impact on SNP at the very least achieving a minority government with the Greens. For me though it’s potentially irrelevant as: the whole infrastructure of devolution; a perceived lack of independent checks and balances and; the proximity of government to other key functions in civil society need to be scrutinised in light of all this or it’ll be a boil on the arse of Holyrood until it’s lanced especially when Independence is so reliant on one party. A worry for me is seeing if David Davis becomes a more recurring character in the next few weeks and months around ‘strengthening’ the Scotland Act because can well imagine there a few Tories in WM salivating at the prospect of getting their hands on that!
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Post by noustie on Mar 23, 2021 12:20:54 GMT
I think that’s why there is a growing distrust around whether the true goals of the majority of SNP MSPs/MPs is now Independence or protecting their own income. Strategically saying they need a majority of SNP MSPs to push through legislation on Independence is bat shit mental because the list vote is dependent on how a party does in the constituency. Last time they gained 6 constituency seats so lost 12 list seats leaving them 2 short of an overall majority. They have in fairness reigned it back a bit and started saying ‘Independence supporting Government’ but if they played the game even slightly they could help return a shed load of Greens. SNP got 41% of the list vote last time (4 seats); Greens 7% of the vote (6 seats) and Labour 19% (21 seats). Granted no party is ever going tell you your list vote is wasted on them but there would be ways and means to discuss tactical voting especially when the cost would only be a couple of list MSPs in comparison to possibly a massive majority.
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Post by partickpotter on Mar 23, 2021 21:31:29 GMT
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Post by wagsastokie on Mar 23, 2021 21:42:15 GMT
Well at least the Scottish labour are consistent with the London party They abstain
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Post by Squeekster on Mar 23, 2021 21:43:05 GMT
So they will push for another referendum, so just what happens if they do get one granted(I think Boris will have to approve) and they vote to leave, do they then have to generate their own money to run the country?
I know they are putting a lot of faith in reclaiming the oil fields but in the long run will this be enough?
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Post by crapslinger on Mar 23, 2021 21:55:31 GMT
So they will push for another referendum, so just what happens if they do get one granted(I think Boris will have to approve) and they vote to leave, do they then have to generate their own money to run the country? I know they are putting a lot of faith in reclaiming the oil fields but in the long run will this be enough? I really do hope for Scexit hopefully the EU will accept them with open arms as, a non contributor and rumblings from some other members it might not be as clear cut as they would hope, would we have a hard border, tariffs on goods and visas required ? I presume they would have to have their own defences in place unless they were integrated into the proposed EU defence force, would they be required to pay a divorce settlement to the rest of the Union. With fossil fuels now rightly demonised will oil be a saving factor for their economy many questions to be answered, but I say let them crack on
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Mar 23, 2021 22:38:14 GMT
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Post by noustie on Mar 25, 2021 11:02:49 GMT
So they will push for another referendum, so just what happens if they do get one granted(I think Boris will have to approve) and they vote to leave, do they then have to generate their own money to run the country? I know they are putting a lot of faith in reclaiming the oil fields but in the long run will this be enough? Oil would be an interesting one - in the build-up to the last referendum Cameron visited Shetland but there was very little media about it and it was all around a new massive find up that way. After the referendum 'look what we've found!' Historically it's pretty easy to point to Norway and ask why a similar country with 5 million folk, although granted roughly double the volume of resource from memory, are absolutely fucking minted. Going forward though, they've just licensed more fields but have been condemned from a green perspective and if cars are going electric what's the demand going to be? The curve ball is renewables as Scotland are already sitting at 90-100% of electricity generated from renewables and the Sea Green project currently being built could see that generate enough to power 60+% of the homes in Scotland on its own. The tricky bit so far is finding a cost effective way of exporting it but if necessity is the mother of invention then it could be a new boom that potentially never runs out.
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Post by partickpotter on Mar 25, 2021 11:42:23 GMT
So they will push for another referendum, so just what happens if they do get one granted(I think Boris will have to approve) and they vote to leave, do they then have to generate their own money to run the country? I know they are putting a lot of faith in reclaiming the oil fields but in the long run will this be enough? Oil would be an interesting one - in the build-up to the last referendum Cameron visited Shetland but there was very little media about it and it was all around a new massive find up that way. After the referendum 'look what we've found!' Historically it's pretty easy to point to Norway and ask why a similar country with 5 million folk, although granted roughly double the volume of resource from memory, are absolutely fucking minted. Going forward though, they've just licensed more fields but have been condemned from a green perspective and if cars are going electric what's the demand going to be? The curve ball is renewables as Scotland are already sitting at 90-100% of electricity generated from renewables and the Sea Green project currently being built could see that generate enough to power 60+% of the homes in Scotland on its own. The tricky bit so far is finding a cost effective way of exporting it but if necessity is the mother of invention then it could be a new boom that potentially never runs out. That indeed is the problem - how do you move energy from source to consumption and ensure it is available when it is needed. For fossil fuels that isn’t much of a problem. For renewables it’s a huge challenge in transportation and storage - but the benefits are enormous. If it can be done, Scotland could well become the Saudi Arabia of renewables.
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Post by felonious on Mar 25, 2021 11:47:17 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56496069The women also described their anonymity as a "double-edged sword, because it means we are faceless and voiceless". They criticised the politicisation of the saga, which they said had led people to "ascribe motives to us that fit a particular theory that they have". And they said the "directed abuse and misrepresentation" on social media had been "completely crushing". Let's not forget the victims of unwanted sexual advances by the previous first minister in this saga of course the case was not proven but he acknowledges to being "no saint". His own lawyer of course probably thought this was an understatement.
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Post by partickpotter on Mar 25, 2021 11:53:59 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-56496069The women also described their anonymity as a "double-edged sword, because it means we are faceless and voiceless". They criticised the politicisation of the saga, which they said had led people to "ascribe motives to us that fit a particular theory that they have". And they said the "directed abuse and misrepresentation" on social media had been "completely crushing". Let's not forget the victims of unwanted sexual advances by the previous first minister in this saga of course the case was not proven but he acknowledges to being "no saint". His own lawyer of course probably thought this was an understatement. It’s a tawdry tale that neither Salmond or Sturgeon emerge from with any credit. That both seem to be carrying on regardless is truly staggering.
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