Mikel

[Deleted]

Oct 28, 2020 10:32:10 GMT bayernoatcake said:

Oct 28, 2020 10:10:31 GMT prestwichpotter said:

And Souttar going walkabout?

It was poor. But there wasn't a midfielder there for him to pass the man on to and then Mikel should cover that space. It's his job.

Sounds like you’re making an excuse for Souttar to be honest.

If it was Chester vacating the area I somehow thing your angle would be a lot different......

[bayernoatcake]

Oct 28, 2020 10:34:13 GMT prestwichpotter said:

Oct 28, 2020 10:32:10 GMT bayernoatcake said:

It was poor. But there wasn't a midfielder there for him to pass the man on to and then Mikel should cover that space. It's his job.

Sounds like you’re making an excuse for Souttar to be honest.

If it was Chester vacating the area I somehow thing your angle would be a lot different......

Not at all.

Mikel should fill that space whatever the circumstance. That's pretty clear. And it's the second time he's not done it in a week. It's something he needs to stop.

As for Chester. The worst CB in the last 10 years we've had

[iglugluk]

Oct 28, 2020 10:44:32 GMT bayernoatcake said:

Oct 28, 2020 10:34:13 GMT prestwichpotter said:

Sounds like you’re making an excuse for Souttar to be honest.

If it was Chester vacating the area I somehow thing your angle would be a lot different......

Not at all.

Mikel should fill that space whatever the circumstance. That's pretty clear. And it's the second time he's not done it in a week. It's something he needs to stop.

As for Chester. The worst CB in the last 10 years we've had

The worst in the last 10 years? I'd put Wimmer and Woodgate right up there 😁

[bayernoatcake]

Oct 28, 2020 10:52:11 GMT iglugluk said:

Oct 28, 2020 10:44:32 GMT bayernoatcake said:

Not at all.

Mikel should fill that space whatever the circumstance. That's pretty clear. And it's the second time he's not done it in a week. It's something he needs to stop.

As for Chester. The worst CB in the last 10 years we've had

The worst in the last 10 years? I'd put Wimmer and Woodgate right up there 😁

Wimmer is better and should be in the side now imo.

Woodgate is a good contender.

[thehoof]

Oct 28, 2020 9:55:36 GMT chiswickpotter said:

Oct 28, 2020 9:15:06 GMT thehoof said:

So you agree that it was poor from Mikel, but then say Souttar should have left Ayew for the midfield to pick up- this is the midfield of which Mikel is a part and who didn’t stay with his man, and TOB who has no idea of defensive responsibility at all?
Which of the midfield would have picked up Ayew then?
Also the whole point of 3 Centre Halves is that they cover when one does go out- no sign of that awareness from Chester or Fox?

Fox had gone off by then. Souttar should not have followed Ayew out, he would then have been able to cover Chester and pick up Palmer. Its up to the midfield to adjust when a striker drops deep. In fairness, the switch to 4-4-2 completely destroyed any momentum we had built up to that point. If Fletcher was not going to replace Vokes, Powell should have come on

Yes you are right, Fox had gone off. Ayew started the move with a lay out to the right and Souttar stayed with him- if Souttar had dropped off and Ayew had then shot into the net we’d be moaning that no one put a challenge in.
What’s the point of a goalkeeper who can’t come for a ball that was his all day long? The midfield had a period where it was pedestrian but for the most part was useless- no desire to pass or break forward and even less desire to win tackles ( Mikel did try).

[femark]

Oct 28, 2020 9:15:06 GMT thehoof said:

Oct 28, 2020 8:39:09 GMT femark said:

Agree that it was poor from Mikel, but I think the main issue was that we switched to 4 at the back when chasing the game and the players didn't respond accordingly. Souttar followed his man out of defence, which is ok in a 5 but leaves a big hole in a 4. He should have dropped off him and let the midfield pick him up. 

So you agree that it was poor from Mikel, but then say Souttar should have left Ayew for the midfield to pick up- this is the midfield of which Mikel is a part and who didn’t stay with his man, and TOB who has no idea of defensive responsibility at all?
Which of the midfield would have picked up Ayew then?
Also the whole point of 3 Centre Halves is that they cover when one does go out- no sign of that awareness from Chester or Fox?

I'm saying it was poor from Mikel not to drop in when Souttar was pulled out of position, but he shouldn't have gotten pulled out of position in the first place. So to say it was completely Mikel's fault is wrong. 

As for your comment about the 3 cnetre halves, we had switched to a back 4 at that point, as i mentioned in my original post.

[iglugluk]

Oct 28, 2020 10:57:41 GMT bayernoatcake said:

Oct 28, 2020 10:52:11 GMT iglugluk said:

The worst in the last 10 years? I'd put Wimmer and Woodgate right up there 😁

Wimmer is better and should be in the side now imo.

Woodgate is a good contender.

Given Wimmer is still on the books and playing in the U-23's then who knows I guess. I don't get the impression that he's been a bad influence on the dressing room during his time here.

[Deleted]

Oct 28, 2020 14:20:33 GMT iglugluk said:

Oct 28, 2020 10:57:41 GMT bayernoatcake said:

Wimmer is better and should be in the side now imo.

Woodgate is a good contender.

Given Wimmer is still on the books and playing in the U-23's then who knows I guess. I don't get the impression that he's been a bad influence on the dressing room during his time here.

Didn’t Wimmer turn around and state pretty strongly that he was glad to leave etc?

This is the same Kevin Wimmer who has not yet had a good game for Stoke (despite costing 18 million) and who has failed to excel in all of his trips abroad?

Of course, his ability to pass a ball in an U23’s match makes him the stand out candidate for a spot. While Fox may not be a centre back, he didn’t put a foot wrong last night and wasn’t the reason we were so bad overall.

[davejohnno1]

Mikel played badly last night as did almost every player that set foot onto the pitch.

We lost a game but we are going along OK so far. Some people need to take a chill pill.

When we beat Rotherham on Saturday it doesn't mean we will storm the league either.

[Deleted]

Oct 28, 2020 10:52:11 GMT iglugluk said:

Oct 28, 2020 10:44:32 GMT bayernoatcake said:

Not at all.

Mikel should fill that space whatever the circumstance. That's pretty clear. And it's the second time he's not done it in a week. It's something he needs to stop.

As for Chester. The worst CB in the last 10 years we've had

The worst in the last 10 years? I'd put Wimmer and Woodgate right up there 😁

Sonko, Davies, Collins at centre back all were worse as well.

[thehoof]

Oct 28, 2020 11:41:05 GMT femark said:

Oct 28, 2020 9:15:06 GMT thehoof said:

So you agree that it was poor from Mikel, but then say Souttar should have left Ayew for the midfield to pick up- this is the midfield of which Mikel is a part and who didn’t stay with his man, and TOB who has no idea of defensive responsibility at all?
Which of the midfield would have picked up Ayew then?
Also the whole point of 3 Centre Halves is that they cover when one does go out- no sign of that awareness from Chester or Fox?

I'm saying it was poor from Mikel not to drop in when Souttar was pulled out of position, but he shouldn't have gotten pulled out of position in the first place. So to say it was completely Mikel's fault is wrong. 

As for your comment about the 3 cnetre halves, we had switched to a back 4 at that point, as i mentioned in my original post.

I never said it was completely Mikel’s fault, and yes you are right about being a back 4 at the time.I dare say that had Ayew been left unattended when receiving the ball 25 yards from goal and promptly stuck it in the net, we’d have been moaning about a lack of challenge by Souttar or any Centre Half. The goal is a hopeful lob into the box where Mikel has let the man go, and even then Gunn should have won the ball.

[Deleted]

Oct 28, 2020 14:36:19 GMT @stokiematt1992 said:

Oct 28, 2020 14:20:33 GMT iglugluk said:

Given Wimmer is still on the books and playing in the U-23's then who knows I guess. I don't get the impression that he's been a bad influence on the dressing room during his time here.

Didn’t Wimmer turn around and state pretty strongly that he was glad to leave etc?

This is the same Kevin Wimmer who has not yet had a good game for Stoke (despite costing 18 million) and who has failed to excel in all of his trips abroad?

Of course, his ability to pass a ball in an U23’s match makes him the stand out candidate for a spot. While Fox may not be a centre back, he didn’t put a foot wrong last night and wasn’t the reason we were so bad overall.

That was then (whenever that was). This is now. We don't have a leftsided central defender that we use despite having two leftsided cds on our books. It's coming up to 33 months that he played his last not good game for Stoke while all this time we have been partially or fully paying his expensive wages. It might just be time to draw a line in the sand and move forwards. Of course this will require some extraordinary effort on Wimmer's part too.

Fox didn't put a foot wrong??? You might want to run that by Michael O'Neill who was not at all happy with him last night.

[Deleted]

Oct 28, 2020 18:13:56 GMT @kpsja said:

Oct 28, 2020 14:36:19 GMT @stokiematt1992 said:

Didn’t Wimmer turn around and state pretty strongly that he was glad to leave etc?

This is the same Kevin Wimmer who has not yet had a good game for Stoke (despite costing 18 million) and who has failed to excel in all of his trips abroad?

Of course, his ability to pass a ball in an U23’s match makes him the stand out candidate for a spot. While Fox may not be a centre back, he didn’t put a foot wrong last night and wasn’t the reason we were so bad overall.

That was then (whenever that was). This is now. We don't have a leftsided central defender that we use despite having two leftsided cds on our books. It's coming up to 33 months that he played his last not good game for Stoke while all this time we have been partially or fully paying his expensive wages. It might just be time to draw a line in the sand and move forwards. Of course this will require some extraordinary effort on Wimmer's part too.

Fox didn't put a foot wrong??? You might want to run that by Michael O'Neill who was not at all happy with him last night.

I genuinely didn’t see anything that he specifically did that put undue pressure on us or had them go on to get a goal scoring opportunity.

With regards to Wimmer, that will likely have to be his decision. At present, I wouldn’t welcome back a player that has never played well for us, but if he does manage to excel in the U23s for a few games and then works well in the first team training, I can’t really argue.

I do think that it’s unlikely he will be able to do that however.

If we are going to persist with 3 at the back, one of them also needs to be fairly quick. Unfortunately no one in our squad fits that bill, so these diagonal balls into the channels will continue to haunt us.

[march4]

Oct 28, 2020 10:52:11 GMT iglugluk said:

Oct 28, 2020 10:44:32 GMT bayernoatcake said:

Not at all.

Mikel should fill that space whatever the circumstance. That's pretty clear. And it's the second time he's not done it in a week. It's something he needs to stop.

As for Chester. The worst CB in the last 10 years we've had

The worst in the last 10 years? I'd put Wimmer and Woodgate right up there 😁

I’d put Fox well ahead of Chester in the worst centre back stakes.

[fulagoals]

Different opinions are a part of what makes us all love this game so much.
For what it’s worth, my opinion of Mikel last night was that he didn’t help in his part in their second goal that’s for sure.
But over large periods of the game he was the one and only one Stoke player that tried to move us forward.
He was constantly looking for forward passes granted not always being able to deliver one.
Maybe it’s because our other so called ‘match winners’ were all out of sorts last night that it made Mikel look more attack minded.
When 3 or 4 other attack minded players are on top of their game it makes players like Mikel not to get recognition they deserve.
Unfortunately last night no one was on their A game.

[wearestoke80]

Oct 28, 2020 10:33:27 GMT prestwichpotter said:

Oct 28, 2020 10:19:20 GMT wearestoke80 said:

Weve only played 3 other away games and one of them was against Luton and Preston had 10 men. Fucking shit.

We also won at Wolves and Villa in the cup. You can’t just erase them from history.....

You are actually including the league cup? Give me strength.

[Deleted]

Oct 28, 2020 21:05:56 GMT wearestoke80 said:

Oct 28, 2020 10:33:27 GMT prestwichpotter said:

We also won at Wolves and Villa in the cup. You can’t just erase them from history.....

You are actually including the league cup? Give me strength.

I know fancy including competitive games in the Cup eh?

[wearestoke80]

Oct 28, 2020 21:07:06 GMT prestwichpotter said:

Oct 28, 2020 21:05:56 GMT wearestoke80 said:

You are actually including the league cup? Give me strength.

I know fancy including competitive games in the Cup eh?

Games that the opponents don’t prioritise

[jezzascfc]

Oct 28, 2020 19:27:24 GMT fulagoals said:

Different opinions are a part of what makes us all love this game so much.
For what it’s worth, my opinion of Mikel last night was that he didn’t help in his part in their second goal that’s for sure.
But over large periods of the game he was the one and only one Stoke player that tried to move us forward.
He was constantly looking for forward passes granted not always being able to deliver one.
Maybe it’s because our other so called ‘match winners’ were all out of sorts last night that it made Mikel look more attack minded.
When 3 or 4 other attack minded players are on top of their game it makes players like Mikel not to get recognition they deserve.
Unfortunately last night no one was on their A game.

Bang on - he had very little help and tried his best in large part. Too many were out of sorts and dragged others like him down with them.

[sensiblestokie]

JOM has been a lot better than I thought he would be. He’s been very decent for us so far.

[Deleted]

Oct 28, 2020 18:33:23 GMT @stokiematt1992 said:

Oct 28, 2020 18:13:56 GMT @kpsja said:

That was then (whenever that was). This is now. We don't have a leftsided central defender that we use despite having two leftsided cds on our books. It's coming up to 33 months that he played his last not good game for Stoke while all this time we have been partially or fully paying his expensive wages. It might just be time to draw a line in the sand and move forwards. Of course this will require some extraordinary effort on Wimmer's part too.

Fox didn't put a foot wrong??? You might want to run that by Michael O'Neill who was not at all happy with him last night.

I genuinely didn’t see anything that he specifically did that put undue pressure on us or had them go on to get a goal scoring opportunity.

With regards to Wimmer, that will likely have to be his decision. At present, I wouldn’t welcome back a player that has never played well for us, but if he does manage to excel in the U23s for a few games and then works well in the first team training, I can’t really argue.

I do think that it’s unlikely he will be able to do that however.

If we are going to persist with 3 at the back, one of them also needs to be fairly quick. Unfortunately no one in our squad fits that bill, so these diagonal balls into the channels will continue to haunt us.

How can a player who has never played a game for us for 33 months be judged on his performances. You have to be able to see that's impossible. He played a handful of games for us and then was forever damned. Is that reasonable?

[southstanddan]

Oct 28, 2020 21:27:47 GMT wearestoke80 said:

Oct 28, 2020 21:07:06 GMT prestwichpotter said:

I know fancy including competitive games in the Cup eh?

Games that the opponents don’t prioritise

And neither did we

[citynickscfc]

Oct 29, 2020 6:58:40 GMT southstanddan said:

Oct 28, 2020 21:27:47 GMT wearestoke80 said:

Games that the opponents don’t prioritise

And neither did we

Then they really shouldn't be included, unless we are evaluating individual performances (like Tymon). I also prefer to only look at league stats as they show MON's prioritisation much more clearly. Our stats in the league absolutely stink, and we will soon be back to minus gd so reality ensues.

[wearestoke80]

Oct 29, 2020 6:58:40 GMT southstanddan said:

Oct 28, 2020 21:27:47 GMT wearestoke80 said:

Games that the opponents don’t prioritise

And neither did we

So if neither team prioritise it then surely it shouldn’t be included

[mrcoke]

Lots of snipes at Mikel on this thread. Just for balance:

I thought there were lots of examples of true class in his game yesterday and he is really gradually putting it together as he gets to know the other players' game.

You can always tell class, when a player seems to have a lot of time on the ball and never appears rushed.

www.goal.com/en/news/stoke-city-manager-oneill-hails-excellent-mikel-in-victory/95fanav1so391qaykbxue0tbn

[bgreen13]

Again proves the point that Stoke fans hate a defensive midfielder.

[bayernoatcake]

Nov 1, 2020 9:49:18 GMT bgreen13 said:

Again proves the point that Stoke fans hate a defensive midfielder.

Eh?

My issue with him is I don't think he's being a defensive midfielder

[bgreen13]

Nov 1, 2020 10:30:12 GMT bayernoatcake said:

Nov 1, 2020 9:49:18 GMT bgreen13 said:

Again proves the point that Stoke fans hate a defensive midfielder.

Eh?

My issue with him is I don't think he's being a defensive midfielder

I know you've tried but you're not the only contributor to this thread.

I don't take anything you say seriously.

Stoke fans historically hate DM's, until we haven't got one.

[bayernoatcake]

Nov 1, 2020 10:32:59 GMT bgreen13 said:

Nov 1, 2020 10:30:12 GMT bayernoatcake said:

Eh?

My issue with him is I don't think he's being a defensive midfielder

I know you've tried but you're not the only contributor to this thread.

I don't take anything you say seriously.

Stoke fans historically hate DM's, until we haven't got one.

Have they since when?

And Mikel hasn't been a DM for us, far from it imo. He leaves way too many gaps.

His passing and attacking play has been the good side of him and where he's shown his quality. Defensively there's been little.

[The Toxic Avenger]

I like how intelligent he is on the ball and how he is nigh on impossible to knock off it. He shields the ball really well.

Off the ball he hasn’t plugged the gaps yet like I thought he would. We’re quite easy to walk through.