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Post by terryconroysmagic on Jul 8, 2020 15:24:12 GMT
All of what you’re saying makes sense but Receivership regardless of the reason is an insolvency event. (Regardless of the reasons) If the rule is to be applied they should have had a points deduction (irrespective of how tough that may have been in Blackpool)
All I’m saying is that there seems to be some discretion and in these uncertain times nothing would surprise me.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 8, 2020 16:05:25 GMT
With regard to the 12 point deduction, I understand why, if they're in the bottom three at the end of the season, then the deduction isn't put in place until next season, as really they wouldn't have received any punishment but why isn't the 12 point deduction put into place next season, if they stay up this season even with the deduction applied to this season? If a team knew that a 12 point deduction wouldn't effect them much bar slipping a few places in the final table, it's much less of a deterrent than them knowing, that if they go into administration, then it will result in them starting next season with a 12 point deduction. I guess ... albeit, what is, effectively a 24pt penalty is arguably getting the wrong side of harsh isn't it?
But yes, the current rule book would feed into any cynical calculation of a mid table (safe) team wanting to just offset a load of debt and still escape the killer of relegation.
Maybe Sheffield Wednesday are a case in point this season.
But that said, I don't think you can drop in such clauses ad hoc this year and, more widely, the whole area of EFL governance needs looking at very closely & very quickly as it ain't working and needs fixing.
Not least the 'gatekeeper' policy - the fit & proper owners clause as Wigan so aptly illustrates.
In the meantime, we're trying to buy David Marshall. No. It wouldn't effectively be be a 24 point penalty. They would simply remain on the same points and in the same position for this season (say mid-table on sixty something), exactly the same as a team that finished in the bottom three would. The 12 point penalty wouldn't be introduced this season because it wouldn't put them in the relegation spots and would be saved until the start of next season, therefore giving them a genuine punishment. It doesn't seem logical to not apply it for a team that finishes in the bottom three and then apply it the following season but to apply it to a team that finishes higher up in the table, who won't be relegated by it's implementation.
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Post by baystokie on Jul 8, 2020 16:10:33 GMT
With regard to the 12 point deduction, I understand why, if they're in the bottom three at the end of the season, then the deduction isn't put in place until next season, as really they wouldn't have received any punishment but why isn't the 12 point deduction put into place next season, if they stay up this season even with the deduction applied to this season? If a team knew that a 12 point deduction wouldn't effect them much bar slipping a few places in the final table, it's much less of a deterrent than them knowing, that if they go into administration, then it will result in them starting next season with a 12 point deduction. Maybe, IF you were in the top six and the 12 points deduction this season meant you had lost out on possible automatic promotion or a play-off place, it might be considered punishment enough. In this circumstance, also starting next season with a 12 point deduction might seem 'double' punishment, As it is, short of relegation, as you say, you would only lose some 'place' money. One's viewpoint is very much coloured by the position before the deduction and the resultant effect of the 12 point deduction.
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Post by mickmillslovechild on Jul 8, 2020 16:16:27 GMT
All of what you’re saying makes sense but Receivership regardless of the reason is an insolvency event. (Regardless of the reasons) If the rule is to be applied they should have had a points deduction (irrespective of how tough that may have been in Blackpool) All I’m saying is that there seems to be some discretion and in these uncertain times nothing would surprise me. I would also add.... "and because i'm a Stoke fan nothing would surprise me" It genuinely does show how embarrassingly poor we are though. Usually these types of threads would be full of sympathy for the club and fans involved, whereas this one largely seems to be us hoping (as bad as that sounds) it does happen. Just hoping for 2 things really: 1) That Wigan do find a decent buyer to keep the club going 2) Our club realise we're in a false postion in the table and don't use our final position (which will have been bumped up one place if Wigan get a points deduction) as a way to mask complete failings and ineptitudes this season
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 8, 2020 16:19:04 GMT
With regard to the 12 point deduction, I understand why, if they're in the bottom three at the end of the season, then the deduction isn't put in place until next season, as really they wouldn't have received any punishment but why isn't the 12 point deduction put into place next season, if they stay up this season even with the deduction applied to this season? If a team knew that a 12 point deduction wouldn't effect them much bar slipping a few places in the final table, it's much less of a deterrent than them knowing, that if they go into administration, then it will result in them starting next season with a 12 point deduction. Maybe, IF you were in the top six and the 12 points deduction this season meant you had lost out on possible automatic promotion or a play-off place, it might be considered punishment enough. In this circumstance, also starting next season with a 12 point deduction might seem 'double' punishment, As it is, short of relegation, as you say, you would only lose some 'place' money. One's viewpoint is very much coloured by the position before the deduction and the resultant effect of the 12 point deduction. It would always have to be one or the other, a 12 point deduction this season because it punishes you this season, or a 12 point deduction implemented at the start of the following season because it doesn't (really) punish you if it was implemented now. The current system doesn't appear to do that, if you finish far enough above the relegation places for it not to matter but does do that, if you finish in the relegation spots. It doesn't seem logical to me.
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Post by gingerninja on Jul 8, 2020 16:21:20 GMT
When do we expect a definitive decision on this matter?. It is all very up in the air and potentially very impactive on league positions.
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 8, 2020 16:23:42 GMT
All of what you’re saying makes sense but Receivership regardless of the reason is an insolvency event. (Regardless of the reasons) If the rule is to be applied they should have had a points deduction (irrespective of how tough that may have been in Blackpool) All I’m saying is that there seems to be some discretion and in these uncertain times nothing would surprise me. I would also add.... "and because i'm a Stoke fan nothing would surprise me" It genuinely does show how embarrassingly poor we are though. Usually these types of threads would be full of sympathy for the club and fans involved, whereas this one largely seems to be us hoping (as bad as that sounds) it does happen. Just hoping for 2 things really: 1) That Wigan do find a decent buyer to keep the club going 2) Our club realise we're in a false postion in the table and don't use our final position (which will have been bumped up one place if Wigan get a points deduction) as a way to mask complete failings and ineptitudes this season I'll be devastated if we stay up at the expense of Wigan, especially when you delve into the detail of what's actually taken place with the sale five weeks ago. I actually don't think we will but I wouldn't have slept easy if we had.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 16:25:31 GMT
I would also add.... "and because i'm a Stoke fan nothing would surprise me" It genuinely does show how embarrassingly poor we are though. Usually these types of threads would be full of sympathy for the club and fans involved, whereas this one largely seems to be us hoping (as bad as that sounds) it does happen. Just hoping for 2 things really: 1) That Wigan do find a decent buyer to keep the club going 2) Our club realise we're in a false postion in the table and don't use our final position (which will have been bumped up one place if Wigan get a points deduction) as a way to mask complete failings and ineptitudes this season I'll be devastated if we stay up at the expense of Wigan, especially when you delve into the detail of what's actually taken place with the sale five weeks ago. I actually don't think we will but I wouldn't have slept easy if we had. So are you saying you don't think they'll get the points deduction or do you think they'll overtake us with the deduction?
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Post by Paul Spencer on Jul 8, 2020 16:29:44 GMT
I'll be devastated if we stay up at the expense of Wigan, especially when you delve into the detail of what's actually taken place with the sale five weeks ago. I actually don't think we will but I wouldn't have slept easy if we had. So are you saying you don't think they'll get the points deduction or do you think they'll overtake us with the deduction? Neither, I'm saying that I don't think we'll be in the bottom three when/if their 12 point deduction is implemented.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2020 16:45:13 GMT
So are you saying you don't think they'll get the points deduction or do you think they'll overtake us with the deduction? Neither, I'm saying that I don't think we'll be in the bottom three when/if their 12 point deduction is implemented. Lol, I missed that one off. Positivity, I like it.
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Post by Vadiation_Ribe on Jul 8, 2020 21:56:44 GMT
Interview with EFL chairman Rick Parry about Wigan's administration: www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53341269"The Championship is a financial nonsense. We've got clubs spending 107% of their income on wages, we've got the major distortion of parachute payments, we've got £400m of owner-funding required - £16m per Championship club. There are owners gambling on getting into the Premier League, it's unsustainable. "We need to make our clubs sustainable - we shouldn't be relying on random foreign owners."
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Post by Goonie on Jul 9, 2020 7:48:16 GMT
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Post by realstokebloke on Jul 9, 2020 8:37:20 GMT
I guess ... albeit, what is, effectively a 24pt penalty is arguably getting the wrong side of harsh isn't it?
But yes, the current rule book would feed into any cynical calculation of a mid table (safe) team wanting to just offset a load of debt and still escape the killer of relegation.
Maybe Sheffield Wednesday are a case in point this season.
But that said, I don't think you can drop in such clauses ad hoc this year and, more widely, the whole area of EFL governance needs looking at very closely & very quickly as it ain't working and needs fixing.
Not least the 'gatekeeper' policy - the fit & proper owners clause as Wigan so aptly illustrates.
In the meantime, we're trying to buy David Marshall. No. It wouldn't effectively be be a 24 point penalty. They would simply remain on the same points and in the same position for this season (say mid-table on sixty something), exactly the same as a team that finished in the bottom three would. The 12 point penalty wouldn't be introduced this season because it wouldn't put them in the relegation spots and would be saved until the start of next season, therefore giving them a genuine punishment. It doesn't seem logical to not apply it for a team that finishes in the bottom three and then apply it the following season but to apply it to a team that finishes higher up in the table, who won't be relegated by it's implementation. Fair enough. I'll just say your post could, perhaps, have been a little clearer.
😉
(I think) you mean:
As now: if the deduction does relegate you, that's your punushment.
As now: if you were in the relegation places of your own accord, the deduction applies at the start of the next season in the lower division.
You propose: if the deduction doesn't place you in the bottom three in the current season, then it applies at the start of next season in the same division (a more effective punishment).
So Wigan, should they stay out of the relgation places (which I think they will and hope they do tbh), would start next season on -12pts.
Anyway ... I agree.
My other point still stands though. I read Rick Parry's defence of the EFL's governance in this respect and he highlights the many problems they face but neverthless, something has to be done because clubs and communities are getting shafted in the meantime.
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Post by robwahlmann on Jul 9, 2020 8:51:40 GMT
I think Wigan will get 51 points even with 12 points deducted! They are now on 41 and will probably get another 10 points as they look very solid!
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Post by realstokebloke on Jul 9, 2020 9:01:51 GMT
The points deduction to watch is the Sheffield Wed one perhaps. The EFL stand accused of ineptitude as per their handling of Wigan and so might want to show some teeth in the SW case accordingly.
-12pts plus their poor form would make it interesting to say the least and a further -9pts would be game over. Barring the appeal of course.
Not that they will trouble the relegation issue, but is Derby's potential points punishment now settled? Not sure.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Jul 9, 2020 10:10:22 GMT
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Post by realstokebloke on Jul 9, 2020 10:22:53 GMT
Props to Wigan and to Cook.
During one of the many manager merry-go-rounds we've had, his name (like many others) popped up and was widely slated. Allegedly he would have welcomed the opportunity to do something at a club with a decent budget.
Well he seems to have done alright at one without one, that's for sure.
Hope they stay up & survive. They have been well & truly shafted.
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Post by bolders on Jul 9, 2020 11:29:28 GMT
I think Wigan will get 51 points even with 12 points deducted! They are now on 41 and will probably get another 10 points as they look very solid! They will win their next 3 easily unless their owner tries to fook them over again to win this alledged bet
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Post by markytcd on Jul 9, 2020 11:40:03 GMT
I think Wigan will get 51 points even with 12 points deducted! They are now on 41 and will probably get another 10 points as they look very solid! They will win their next 3 easily unless their owner tries to fook them over again to win this alledged bet Smacks a little of one of my favourite films...(when I was a kid!)
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Post by bolders on Jul 9, 2020 14:29:14 GMT
They will win their next 3 easily unless their owner tries to fook them over again to win this alledged bet Smacks a little of one of my favourite films...(when I was a kid!) Just watched for the first time
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Post by mano00001 on Jul 9, 2020 19:58:58 GMT
Friend is wigan fan and he said he heard from very food source that they will win there appeal hand down
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 20:04:11 GMT
Friend is wigan fan and he said he heard from very food source that they will win there appeal hand down Completely meaningless....
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Post by mickstupp on Jul 9, 2020 20:06:05 GMT
Friend is wigan fan and he said he heard from very food source that they will win there appeal hand down On what grounds exactly?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 20:07:17 GMT
Friend is wigan fan and he said he heard from very food source that they will win there appeal hand down Stop embarrassing yourself. You're lurching from Alan Nixon to imaginary friends.
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Post by crouchpotato1 on Jul 9, 2020 20:08:54 GMT
Friend is wigan fan and he said he heard from very food source that they will win there appeal hand down Very good source my arse
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Post by Squeekster on Jul 9, 2020 20:09:36 GMT
Friend is wigan fan and he said he heard from very food source that they will win there appeal hand down Is it crusty the pie from Dave Squires cartoon?
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Post by Fred Merger on Jul 9, 2020 20:09:47 GMT
Friend is wigan fan and he said he heard from very food source that they will win there appeal hand down Tell him to keep taking his tablets! 😎
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 20:10:52 GMT
I don’t think it will matter how they are playing even with a 12 point deduction they will still stay up.
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Post by liathroid on Jul 9, 2020 20:10:56 GMT
Friend is wigan fan and he said he heard from very food source that they will win there appeal hand down are u a Wigan supporter
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Post by mickstupp on Jul 9, 2020 20:14:02 GMT
I don’t think it will matter how they are playing even with a 12 point deduction they will still stay up. Their next three games are Barnsley, Hull, and Charlton so let’s hope they do beat them and do us a huge favour in the process.
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