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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 10:58:45 GMT
Most of the players are braindead. I'd bet good money that if you looked at every teams stats around giving free kicks away in our final third we'd be top or very close to being top. The squad lacks, pace, it lacks hunger, and it lacks football intelligence in spades. It's just a really shit unbalances squad populated by frauds....... Which is all spot on, you're right, so what has changed from when we had promotion form before the break to now, the players haven't they're the same paceless hungerless thickos....... Joe Allen, massive loss. He gets us playing 10 yards further up the pitch. Powell and Clucas not firing. No consistent back four. McClean and Ince ineffective out wide. Forwards isolated.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 10:59:31 GMT
Much though I hate to say it, Allen. I said second half v Hull that despite winning that half we looked nowhere near as good and I worried for the rest of the season He’s one of the worst for exposing the defence. But the best at giving us forward momentum.......
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 11:02:46 GMT
He’s one of the worst for exposing the defence. But the best at giving us forward momentum....... Sometimes. He’s still been wank in 80% of the games he’s played this season. If MON just put Clucas centrally it would solve it you’d expect. Fucking maddening that he hasn’t.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 11:04:25 GMT
McClean is awful defensively. Expecting McClean to track runners is daft imo. He doesn’t do it. He’s shown he can’t do it and doesn’t have the brain to spot it. By the time he noticed it was too late. Again I don’t think that’s a lack of effort just him being thick and something we know he does. Allen doesn’t cover the squad either. There’s usually a massive hole in midfield when he plays. Again nothing new. And not down to effort but talent and a lack of brain. I can accept Mclean's lack of brain but he did see the runner last night but instead of doing his usual delayed reaction closing down he stood with his hands out saying who should be stopping him it's not my job. Again though that is James McClean. It was too late. Walters used to do it too. He was wank defensive despite the plaudits he’d get for it.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 1, 2020 11:05:56 GMT
Which is all spot on, you're right, so what has changed from when we had promotion form before the break to now, the players haven't they're the same paceless hungerless thickos....... Much though I hate to say it, Allen. I said second half v Hull that despite winning that half we looked nowhere near as good and I worried for the rest of the season We played this set up with Allen, it didn't work then either, we may miss his running etc but who would know when what was working so well before the break hasn't even been tried without him.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 11:09:50 GMT
Much though I hate to say it, Allen. I said second half v Hull that despite winning that half we looked nowhere near as good and I worried for the rest of the season We played this set up with Allen, it didn't work then either, we may miss his running etc but who would know when what was working so well before the break hasn't even been tried without him. 433. The demise of many a Stoke manager in these last 4 years. No idea why they keep trying it.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 11:10:06 GMT
But the best at giving us forward momentum....... Sometimes. He’s still been wank in 80% of the games he’s played this season. If MON just put Clucas centrally it would solve it you’d expect. Fucking maddening that he hasn’t. Clucas is a senior pro and should be capable of playing any of the midfield roles as he has many times in his career, he's been totally invisible since the return. Allen hasn't been wank in 80% of the games under O'Neill though, he's played a vital role.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 1, 2020 11:11:54 GMT
Which is all spot on, you're right, so what has changed from when we had promotion form before the break to now, the players haven't they're the same paceless hungerless thickos....... Joe Allen, massive loss. He gets us playing 10 yards further up the pitch. Powell and Clucas not firing. No consistent back four. McClean and Ince ineffective out wide. Forwards isolated. Allen could be a massive loss but how would we know, when played in this same set up it was the same, we haven't tried the one that was working. Forwards isolated = set up Clucas and Powell not firing + out of position = set up Ince was poor even when we were getting results so I have no argument there McClean is being the same McClean but he's to far back to do anything = set up It all points to one thing for me and I know I'm banging on about it over and over but I just can't understand why O'Neill has done it, it makes no sense to me. He hasn't given them a chance.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 1, 2020 11:12:50 GMT
Sometimes. He’s still been wank in 80% of the games he’s played this season. If MON just put Clucas centrally it would solve it you’d expect. Fucking maddening that he hasn’t. Clucas is a senior pro and should be capable of playing any of the midfield roles as he has many times in his career, he's been totally invisible since the return. Allen hasn't been wank in 80% of the games under O'Neill though, he's played a vital role. When Clucas has played well he has always been central.
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Post by stroller on Jul 1, 2020 11:12:54 GMT
I watched the game and I came to the conclusion there was a general lack of effort. The commentators frequently referred to us not closing down and comparing our work rate to that of Wigan who were very good when it came to running off the ball, closing down and giving us no time on the ball. If we didn't match them it was because of a lack of effort. Maybe you could say lack of fitness, but our attitude was obvious from the first minute.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 1, 2020 11:14:02 GMT
We played this set up with Allen, it didn't work then either, we may miss his running etc but who would know when what was working so well before the break hasn't even been tried without him. 433. The demise of many a Stoke manager in these last 4 years. No idea why they keep trying it. I'm not sure why they still pretend its 4-3-3 tbh
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Post by Lakeland Potter on Jul 1, 2020 11:14:53 GMT
I’m struggling to get on board with the lack of effort stuff. There was or two that didn’t but overall I didn’t see a team not trying. Butland Ince And maybe Clucas being the ones who I think you can level it at. Every bugger else tried didn’t they? It was just a classic case of a cobbled together side with 3/4 players who shouldn’t have been starting or were out of position (Clucas’ issue imo). I think you are probably correct. A team which has only 1/3rd of the possession in a game usually ends up far more knackered than the team which had 2/3rds of the possession. I think what we saw last night was as much a mental block as anything. Far too many of the side seemed to have no confidence that anything they tried to do would come off whether we were attacking or defending. Butland and Ince are performing hugely below the ability they showed years ago. Anyone watching Butland yesterday would find it difficult to believe that he was, not too long ago, challenging for the regular England goalkeeping spot. Ince has never really done much for Stoke with any level of consistency, but I'm racking my brains to think when he last showed anything like the form he has showed for some of his previous clubs - the form which led us to spend the money we spent on him. I can't get my head round how Ince doesn't seem to have inherited any of his dad's drive and competitiveness. Strange team selections compounded the problem - playing Collins at right back is in danger of strangling his career almost before it gets started. In my optimistic moments I have to believe that MON will draw on his ability to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear which he demonstrated to good effect with Northern Ireland. But even I have to concede that time is running out if he is to turn things round sufficiently to stay up this season. Fingers crossed that he has some sort of epiphany between now and the time he names his side for Saturday's game.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 11:16:14 GMT
Clucas is a senior pro and should be capable of playing any of the midfield roles as he has many times in his career, he's been totally invisible since the return. Allen hasn't been wank in 80% of the games under O'Neill though, he's played a vital role. When Clucas has played well he has always been central. He's not even had the chance to play badly with the ball, he's just been massively off the pace which is worrying.....
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 1, 2020 11:18:34 GMT
When Clucas has played well he has always been central. He's not even had the chance to play badly with the ball, he's just been massively off the pace which is worrying..... Play him in a position that works for him and he may actually play well, its worrying that we're three games in and it still hasn't happened.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 11:19:51 GMT
I’m struggling to get on board with the lack of effort stuff. There was or two that didn’t but overall I didn’t see a team not trying. Butland Ince And maybe Clucas being the ones who I think you can level it at. Every bugger else tried didn’t they? It was just a classic case of a cobbled together side with 3/4 players who shouldn’t have been starting or were out of position (Clucas’ issue imo). I think you are probably correct. A team which has only 1/3rd of the possession in a game usually ends up far more knackered than the team which had 2/3rds of the possession. I think what we saw last night was as much a mental block as anything. Far too many of the side seemed to have no confidence that anything they tried to do would come off whether we were attacking or defending. Butland and Ince are performing hugely below the ability they showed years ago. Anyone watching Butland yesterday would find it difficult to believe that he was, not too long ago, challenging for the regular England goalkeeping spot. Ince has never really done much for Stoke with any level of consistency, but I'm racking my brains to think when he last showed anything like the form he has showed for some of his previous clubs - the form which led us to spend the money we spent on him. I can't get my head round how Ince doesn't seem to have inherited any of his dad's drive and competitiveness. Strange team selections compounded the problem - playing Collins at right back is in danger of strangling his career almost before it gets started. In my optimistic moments I have to believe that MON will draw on his ability to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear which he demonstrated to good effect with Northern Ireland. But even I have to concede that time is running out if he is to turn things round sufficiently to stay up this season. Fingers crossed that he has some sort of epiphany between now and the time he names his side for Saturday's game. I thought he would after Reading LP. That was a similar odd set up that was unnecessarily unbalanced and again it played out how I expected it to when I saw the XI. And the changes to amend that seemed obvious. Then against Boro he went even madder.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jul 1, 2020 11:20:51 GMT
You can blame Butland for the first goal and rightly so but if you let players skate around the edge of our box unchallenged with the freedom of the park running down our by line you are going to concede a lot of goals, whoever is in between the sticks. Player meandering listlessly out of position, no attempts to track their man or go to the ball. It was pathetic and symptomatic of a team where too many simply don't give a flying fuck. The third goal was similar to Tavernier's on Saturday in the build up as well. Too many players with not enough pride to put themselves on the line.
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Post by spitthedog on Jul 1, 2020 11:21:40 GMT
What i noticed is that the problem is not trying, though we seemed to drop our energy levels at key times in both games.
After we went behind in both games we were darting around the pitch like headless chickens, so no lack of sweat as such.
The problem that was exposed was lack of technical ability to match the energy levels, then losing the energy level because they couldn't sustain it.
Lack of ability is main problem.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 1, 2020 11:22:07 GMT
I think you are probably correct. A team which has only 1/3rd of the possession in a game usually ends up far more knackered than the team which had 2/3rds of the possession. I think what we saw last night was as much a mental block as anything. Far too many of the side seemed to have no confidence that anything they tried to do would come off whether we were attacking or defending. Butland and Ince are performing hugely below the ability they showed years ago. Anyone watching Butland yesterday would find it difficult to believe that he was, not too long ago, challenging for the regular England goalkeeping spot. Ince has never really done much for Stoke with any level of consistency, but I'm racking my brains to think when he last showed anything like the form he has showed for some of his previous clubs - the form which led us to spend the money we spent on him. I can't get my head round how Ince doesn't seem to have inherited any of his dad's drive and competitiveness. Strange team selections compounded the problem - playing Collins at right back is in danger of strangling his career almost before it gets started. In my optimistic moments I have to believe that MON will draw on his ability to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear which he demonstrated to good effect with Northern Ireland. But even I have to concede that time is running out if he is to turn things round sufficiently to stay up this season. Fingers crossed that he has some sort of epiphany between now and the time he names his side for Saturday's game. I thought he would after Reading LP. That was a similar odd set up that was unnecessarily unbalanced and again it played out how I expected it to when I saw the XI. And the changes to amend that seemed obvious. Then against Boro he went even madder. He's always wanted to play 4-3-3/4-5-1 since he came in dispite his waffle of research watching all the tapes etc etc, he saw this as his oportunity to do it again and the same thing has happened.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 11:24:07 GMT
You can blame Butland for the first goal and rightly so but if you let players skate around the edge of our box unchallenged with the freedom of the park running down our by line you are going to concede a lot of goals, whoever is in between the sticks. Player meandering listlessly out of position, no attempts to track their man or go to the ball. It was pathetic and symptomatic of a team where too many simply don't give a flying fuck. The third goal was similar to Tavernier's on Saturday in the build up as well. Too many players with not enough pride to put themselves on the line. Again though that’s lack of talent and legs isn’t it? Ward was trying he just can’t physically run.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jul 1, 2020 11:25:28 GMT
I’m struggling to get on board with the lack of effort stuff. There was or two that didn’t but overall I didn’t see a team not trying. Butland Ince And maybe Clucas being the ones who I think you can level it at. Every bugger else tried didn’t they? It was just a classic case of a cobbled together side with 3/4 players who shouldn’t have been starting or were out of position (Clucas’ issue imo). Lack of effort can manifest itself in lots of ways. If you are not fit enough to play, forcing the manager to put square pegs in round holes, that is a lack of effort. If defeat doesn't hurt you, that is a lack of effort. This team is lacking in lots of things and it is the fundamentals of being a professional sportsman that seems to be the biggest flaw with the vast majority of them. If it isn't a lack of talent, it's a lack of pride, professionalism and downright bloodymindedness not to be beaten. It makes no sense that Collins plays right back. None at all but why is he doing it. There has to be a reason, more to do with the readiness of other players to play than the manager simply thinking its the right way to go. I don't buy the Clucas thing either. How was he out of position. He played in a midfield 3. He's a midfielder. Not a very good one but a midfielder all the same. This lot need to stand up to be counted, to take the managers criticism square on the chin and to bounce back on Saturday in a way that shows everyone that we are wrong to doubt their basic professionalism and pride. The big question is will they?
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 11:26:32 GMT
I thought he would after Reading LP. That was a similar odd set up that was unnecessarily unbalanced and again it played out how I expected it to when I saw the XI. And the changes to amend that seemed obvious. Then against Boro he went even madder. He's always wanted to play 4-3-3/4-5-1 since he came in dispite his waffle of research watching all the tapes etc etc, he saw this as his oportunity to do it again and the same thing has happened. Yeah I don’t get it. Cousins Clucas Campbell Powell McClean Diouf Campbell and Diouf switching. Not ideal but it’s sure as hell got more structure to it.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 11:28:44 GMT
I’m struggling to get on board with the lack of effort stuff. There was or two that didn’t but overall I didn’t see a team not trying. Butland Ince And maybe Clucas being the ones who I think you can level it at. Every bugger else tried didn’t they? It was just a classic case of a cobbled together side with 3/4 players who shouldn’t have been starting or were out of position (Clucas’ issue imo). Lack of effort can manifest itself in lots of ways. If you are not fit enough to play, forcing the manager to put square pegs in round holes, that is a lack of effort. If defeat doesn't hurt you, that is a lack of effort. This team is lacking in lots of things and it is the fundamentals of being a professional sportsman that seems to be the biggest flaw with the vast majority of them. If it isn't a lack of talent, it's a lack of pride, professionalism and downright bloodymindedness not to be beaten. It makes no sense that Collins plays right back. None at all but why is he doing it. There has to be a reason, more to do with the readiness of other players to play than the manager simply thinking its the right way to go. I don't buy the Clucas thing either. How was he out of position. He played in a midfield 3. He's a midfielder. Not a very good one but a midfielder all the same. This lot need to stand up to be counted, to take the managers criticism square on the chin and to bounce back on Saturday in a way that shows everyone that we are wrong to doubt their basic professionalism and pride. The big question is will they? There is no reason for Collins to be at right back. Smith was fine vs Boro, play him. Clucas isn’t a number 10. He’s best running from deep. It totally takes him out of the game. If I was one of them I’d throw it back and tell him to pick a balanced side that is actually set up to win.
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Post by Olgrligm on Jul 1, 2020 11:29:29 GMT
One wonders if our players mentally thought 'job done' when football stopped for lockdown and expected the season to be over. Whereas some teams are now invigorated by the opportunity for a second chance, ours have been made to trudge back. It would go along way to explaining our apparent lack of fitness.
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Post by iglugluk on Jul 1, 2020 11:30:05 GMT
You can blame Butland for the first goal and rightly so but if you let players skate around the edge of our box unchallenged with the freedom of the park running down our by line you are going to concede a lot of goals, whoever is in between the sticks. Player meandering listlessly out of position, no attempts to track their man or go to the ball. It was pathetic and symptomatic of a team where too many simply don't give a flying fuck. The third goal was similar to Tavernier's on Saturday in the build up as well. Too many players with not enough pride to put themselves on the line. MoNs interview pretty much confirmed your judgement that we have too many players who 'don't give a flying fuck'. It seems to me this attitude is likely to be at the heart of his strange team selections of late. Typical that our lot emerged from lockdown off the pace and out of shape.. it fits the pattern perfectly.
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Post by davejohnno1 on Jul 1, 2020 11:31:53 GMT
Lack of effort can manifest itself in lots of ways. If you are not fit enough to play, forcing the manager to put square pegs in round holes, that is a lack of effort. If defeat doesn't hurt you, that is a lack of effort. This team is lacking in lots of things and it is the fundamentals of being a professional sportsman that seems to be the biggest flaw with the vast majority of them. If it isn't a lack of talent, it's a lack of pride, professionalism and downright bloodymindedness not to be beaten. It makes no sense that Collins plays right back. None at all but why is he doing it. There has to be a reason, more to do with the readiness of other players to play than the manager simply thinking its the right way to go. I don't buy the Clucas thing either. How was he out of position. He played in a midfield 3. He's a midfielder. Not a very good one but a midfielder all the same. This lot need to stand up to be counted, to take the managers criticism square on the chin and to bounce back on Saturday in a way that shows everyone that we are wrong to doubt their basic professionalism and pride. The big question is will they? There is no reason for Collins to be at right back. Smith was fine vs Boro, play him. Clucas isn’t a number 10. He’s best running from deep. It totally takes him out of the game. If I was one of them I’d throw it back and tell him to pick a balanced side that is actually set up to win. Where did Clucas play as a no10? He played on the left side of a midfield 3 as I saw the game unfold. It was as basic a 4-3-3 system as you are likely to get last night. I don't know on Smith. I thought he was fine v Boro as well but maybe physically, he's not up to 2 games in 4 days. Those are the things we don't know but for a manager praised for the way in which is simplified things for the players pre-lockdown to now fall into the trap of complicating things unnecessarily, it seems a trifle odd don't you think? I'm pretty sure that there will be a team meeting today and hopefully no punches are pulled from players and manager alike. We are fast running out of time and we have to get a reaction and a result on Saturday.
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Post by OldStokie on Jul 1, 2020 11:34:37 GMT
This group look shell-shocked and rudderless. Part of that is because some of them are simply not good enough, but you get those in almost every team and the better players usually cover for them and try to give them confidence to overcome their lack of ability. What we seem to be lacking is leaders... those players who have a certain presence and the ability to be both psychiatrists and bullies... an arm around the shoulder or a right good bollocking depending on the type of personality of the player they're trying to get the best out of.
So, a lack of effort? I don't think it's that even though a couple do need a boot up the arse big style. What I do know is that this same group of players who were so shit last night are the same group of players that made us one of the best form teams in the league before lockdown.
OS.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 11:35:24 GMT
I put more effort into posting my irate comments on the oatcake after the match, than the players did during it. So you’re telling me Collins Shawcross Batth Ward Cousins Thompson McClean and Vokes didn’t put effort in? They put an effort in but it wasn't a meaningful effort. If it had been, Butland would not have conceded two of those three goals, just to give one important example.
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Post by dirtygary69 on Jul 1, 2020 11:37:15 GMT
I’m struggling to get on board with the lack of effort stuff. There was or two that didn’t but overall I didn’t see a team not trying. Butland Ince And maybe Clucas being the ones who I think you can level it at. Every bugger else tried didn’t they? It was just a classic case of a cobbled together side with 3/4 players who shouldn’t have been starting or were out of position (Clucas’ issue imo). Lack of effort can manifest itself in lots of ways. If you are not fit enough to play, forcing the manager to put square pegs in round holes, that is a lack of effort. If defeat doesn't hurt you, that is a lack of effort. This team is lacking in lots of things and it is the fundamentals of being a professional sportsman that seems to be the biggest flaw with the vast majority of them. If it isn't a lack of talent, it's a lack of pride, professionalism and downright bloodymindedness not to be beaten. It makes no sense that Collins plays right back. None at all but why is he doing it. There has to be a reason, more to do with the readiness of other players to play than the manager simply thinking its the right way to go. I don't buy the Clucas thing either. How was he out of position. He played in a midfield 3. He's a midfielder. Not a very good one but a midfielder all the same. This lot need to stand up to be counted, to take the managers criticism square on the chin and to bounce back on Saturday in a way that shows everyone that we are wrong to doubt their basic professionalism and pride. The big question is will they? Spot on, for me. Running stats and whatever might not look horrendous but where was the effort to actually close them down, the effort to make a move for a pass, the effort to try something different, to take a chance to make something happen? We have a bunch of cowards playing for us who don't want to show up when it gets tough. They were completely out manoeuvred by a Wigan Athletic team and if that's not down to a lack of effort, then what is?
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Post by femark on Jul 1, 2020 11:40:42 GMT
I think the perceived lack of effort is down to the players being scared. They're scared to get on the ball and scared to end up in a one on one situation leading to players hiding or going missing. Tom Ince being the main culprit for disappearing up his full backs arse.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 11:40:43 GMT
There is no reason for Collins to be at right back. Smith was fine vs Boro, play him. Clucas isn’t a number 10. He’s best running from deep. It totally takes him out of the game. If I was one of them I’d throw it back and tell him to pick a balanced side that is actually set up to win. Where did Clucas play as a no10? He played on the left side of a midfield 3 as I saw the game unfold. It was as basic a 4-3-3 system as you are likely to get last night. I don't know on Smith. I thought he was fine v Boro as well but maybe physically, he's not up to 2 games in 4 days. Those are the things we don't know but for a manager praised for the way in which is simplified things for the players pre-lockdown to now fall into the trap of complicating things unnecessarily, it seems a trifle odd don't you think? I'm pretty sure that there will be a team meeting today and hopefully no punches are pulled from players and manager alike. We are fast running out of time and we have to get a reaction and a result on Saturday. He was practically on the left wing last night I thought. He floated around not knowing where he was meant to be. And going from the last two games that seems to be the instruction. No. We’ve seen plenty of instances where something happens with a manager and they change for no good reason. Like against Boro why would you ever play McClean on the right? Like it just shouldn’t even come into your head. There is no excuse for it. After the Reading game the team selection was obvious but it just got worse. I can’t compute it.
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