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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 10:12:04 GMT
I’m struggling to get on board with the lack of effort stuff.
There was or two that didn’t but overall I didn’t see a team not trying.
Butland
Ince
And maybe Clucas being the ones who I think you can level it at.
Every bugger else tried didn’t they? It was just a classic case of a cobbled together side with 3/4 players who shouldn’t have been starting or were out of position (Clucas’ issue imo).
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Post by sheds1862 on Jul 1, 2020 10:14:43 GMT
I actually think you are not too far off.
They are in the main average to poor players.
Doesn't endear them to the fans though when you see stats like Ince got.
Probably are trying but in the main are simply nowhere near good enough.
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Post by Billybigbollox on Jul 1, 2020 10:17:00 GMT
I’m struggling to get on board with the lack of effort stuff. There was or two that didn’t but overall I didn’t see a team not trying. Butland Ince And maybe Clucas being the ones who I think you can level it at. Every bugger else tried didn’t they? It was just a classic case of a cobbled together side with 3/4 players who shouldn’t have been starting or were out of position (Clucas’ issue imo). Lack of ability, lack of pace, lack of intelligence, lack of interest, lack of leadership, lack of structure, lack of clear management. If that lot were trying I’d hate to see them on an off day. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 10:17:59 GMT
I actually think you are not too far off. They are in the main average to poor players. Doesn't endear them to the fans though when you see stats like Ince got. Probably are trying but in the main are simply nowhere near good enough. Oh yeah he was pathetic. But then I honestly don’t think Collins Shawcross Batth Ward Cousins Thompson Clucas McClean and Vokes didn’t try. Vokes was pathetic but when has he not been pathetic for us? He can’t jump. He tries but you couldn’t get a fag paper under his studs when he does. He was isolated and had poor service. What’s he meant to do? He’s not going to chase shadows either, that’s not how he plays. You want that play Gregory or Diouf. |
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Post by somersetstokie on Jul 1, 2020 10:18:01 GMT
I put more effort into posting my irate comments on the oatcake after the match, than the players did during it.  |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 10:19:50 GMT
I’m struggling to get on board with the lack of effort stuff. There was or two that didn’t but overall I didn’t see a team not trying. Butland Ince And maybe Clucas being the ones who I think you can level it at. Every bugger else tried didn’t they? It was just a classic case of a cobbled together side with 3/4 players who shouldn’t have been starting or were out of position (Clucas’ issue imo). Lack of ability, lack of pace, lack of intelligence, lack of interest, lack of leadership, lack of structure, lack of clear management. If that lot were trying I’d hate to see them on an off day. But what you have said there is a lack generally has nothing to do with effort. The two don’t go hand in hand. You set a team up how he did yesterday that had all the traits you mention and we know they did. It was an awful selection. How the hell are they going to function? They were not set up to function. |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 10:20:53 GMT
I put more effort into posting my irate comments on the oatcake after the match, than the players did during it. So you’re telling me Collins Shawcross Batth Ward Cousins Thompson McClean and Vokes didn’t put effort in? |
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Post by chad on Jul 1, 2020 10:22:52 GMT
I’m struggling to get on board with the lack of effort stuff. There was or two that didn’t but overall I didn’t see a team not trying. Butland Ince And maybe Clucas being the ones who I think you can level it at. Every bugger else tried didn’t they? It was just a classic case of a cobbled together side with 3/4 players who shouldn’t have been starting or were out of position (Clucas’ issue imo). You’re probably right. Which is frightening. You can get people to increase their effort. But if they’re just crap players ???? |
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Post by Billybigbollox on Jul 1, 2020 10:23:32 GMT
Lack of ability, lack of pace, lack of intelligence, lack of interest, lack of leadership, lack of structure, lack of clear management. If that lot were trying I’d hate to see them on an off day. But what you have said there is a lack generally has nothing to do with effort. The two don’t go hand in hand. You set a team up how he did yesterday that had all the traits you mention and we know they did. It was an awful selection. How the hell are they going to function? They were not set up to function. That’s true. I do think that our biggest problem is the lack of real quality in the team. McClean is one of our best players this season, and yet is still one of the worst players I’ve seen in a Stoke shirt. |
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Post by sheds1862 on Jul 1, 2020 10:23:58 GMT
I put more effort into posting my irate comments on the oatcake after the match, than the players did during it. So you’re telling me Collins Shawcross Batth Ward Cousins Thompson McClean and Vokes didn’t put effort in? It makes you weep when you see Vokes stunning header v Belgium in Euro 2016 but then again 4 years is a long time in football. As you said he looks heavy legged and has the springing capacity of Douglas Bader |
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Post by FullerMagic on Jul 1, 2020 10:25:56 GMT
But what I don't get is how this same group had produced play-off form from November until lockdown.
The same unbalanced group full of average players "and things in the dressing room I don't like" had form only bettered by 3 or 4 teams over 20 games plus.
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Post by Billybigbollox on Jul 1, 2020 10:27:41 GMT
So you’re telling me Collins Shawcross Batth Ward Cousins Thompson McClean and Vokes didn’t put effort in? It makes you weep when you see Vokes stunning header v Belgium in Euro 2016 but then again 4 years is a long time in football. As you said he looks heavy legged and has the springing capacity of Douglas Bader Love the analogy and will use it myself when the opportunity arises. 😁 |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 10:29:54 GMT
I’m struggling to get on board with the lack of effort stuff. There was or two that didn’t but overall I didn’t see a team not trying. Butland Ince And maybe Clucas being the ones who I think you can level it at. Every bugger else tried didn’t they? It was just a classic case of a cobbled together side with 3/4 players who shouldn’t have been starting or were out of position (Clucas’ issue imo). You’re probably right. Which is frightening. You can get people to increase their effort. But if they’re just crap players ???? I honestly don’t think any amount of effort last night helps. The goals came from the route we know they do. Attack the left and attack the goalie. Playing Thompson after his last two games was just mad. I’ll never get why you’d play Ward. And playing Clucas as some form of floaty number 10? Especially when you’ve got 2 league one standard players actually in CM. I can see why people might think it is a lack of effort but I just don’t see how that XI can function no matter what. I’d expect it to struggle in League One tbh. Balance is key and there was none. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 10:30:25 GMT
I’m struggling to get on board with the lack of effort stuff. There was or two that didn’t but overall I didn’t see a team not trying. Butland Ince And maybe Clucas being the ones who I think you can level it at. Every bugger else tried didn’t they? It was just a classic case of a cobbled together side with 3/4 players who shouldn’t have been starting or were out of position (Clucas’ issue imo). So 27% of the team then? This is professional sport where small margins make a difference. That said I certainly wouldn't accuse anyone of lack of effort against Reading and 'Boro. Lat night we were just lethargic from the off, and when you're under the cosh you need players to dig in and throw their bodies on the line. That's where the likes of Ince get exposed. With Butland it's not lack of effort the guy is just mentally shot, needs to be stood down for the rest of the season and give Davies a go..... |
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 1, 2020 10:32:08 GMT
I’m struggling to get on board with the lack of effort stuff. There was or two that didn’t but overall I didn’t see a team not trying. Butland Ince And maybe Clucas being the ones who I think you can level it at. Every bugger else tried didn’t they? It was just a classic case of a cobbled together side with 3/4 players who shouldn’t have been starting or were out of position (Clucas’ issue imo). I agree, they aren't up to it though, Ward tried he just doesn't have anything left, Collins tried but he isn't a right back you could even say Vokes tried but what more could he have done. |
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Post by biglad180 on Jul 1, 2020 10:32:31 GMT
one player we have not give a go is julian ngoy maybe clutching at straws but can he be any worse than ince,
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 10:32:48 GMT
But what I don't get is how this same group had produced play-off form from November until lockdown. The same unbalanced group full of average players "and things in the dressing room I don't like" had form only bettered by 3 or 4 teams over 20 games plus. I think he’s trying too hard and trying to be clever. Where has Collins at right back come from? Why the fascination with Thompson? Why move Clucas here there and everywhere. Against Boro it was McClean on the right. I also think that since Chester has come in we’ve got worse. I know the results probably don’t back that up but I think we were better before he came. I think that upset the Apple cart. |
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 1, 2020 10:34:26 GMT
But what I don't get is how this same group had produced play-off form from November until lockdown. The same unbalanced group full of average players "and things in the dressing room I don't like" had form only bettered by 3 or 4 teams over 20 games plus. 4-2-3-1 |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 10:34:28 GMT
So you’re telling me Collins Shawcross Batth Ward Cousins Thompson McClean and Vokes didn’t put effort in? It makes you weep when you see Vokes stunning header v Belgium in Euro 2016 but then again 4 years is a long time in football. As you said he looks heavy legged and has the springing capacity of Douglas Bader 😂😂😂😂 He really does. And he is trying to jump too but he just can’t. |
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 10:35:51 GMT
It is more a lack of Talent that is putting us where we are.
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Post by neddy on Jul 1, 2020 10:38:04 GMT
But what I don't get is how this same group had produced play-off form from November until lockdown. The same unbalanced group full of average players "and things in the dressing room I don't like" had form only bettered by 3 or 4 teams over 20 games plus. Less Allen though? |
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 1, 2020 10:39:44 GMT
So how many loose balls did we get to first, how many 50:50s do you remember us winning? How many players covered for each other? I thought a telling moment was the first goal when McLean watched a player run onto the ball in the box who was completely free. Instead of closing him down as the nearest player to the ball McLean put out his hands as if to say where are the rest of you it's not my job, leaving the player completely free to put in the dangerous cross which ultimately became the goal. We have focused on Jack and Ryan but what about James?
This is my problem with the whole squad - they do not play or cover for each other and I mean none of them (except formerly Allen and also probably Ryan is exempt). There is such a blame culture even from players like McLean who are not criticised for lack of effort. Watch the players making themselves available for throw ins. There is obviously a throw in routine but when the opposition cut that off no other player makes any effort to make themselves available. I think that's what I mean by lack of effort and it applies to every single one of them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2020 10:43:06 GMT
So how many loose balls did we get to first, how many 50:50s do you remember us winning? How many players covered for each other? I thought a telling moment was the first goal when McLean watched a player run onto the ball in the box who was completely free. Instead of closing him down as the nearest player to the ball McLean put out his hands as if to say where are the rest of you it's not my job, leaving the player completely free to put in the dangerous cross which ultimately became the goal. We have focused on Jack and Ryan but what about James? This is my problem with the whole squad - they do not play or cover for each other and I mean none of them (except formerly Allen and also probably Ryan is exempt). There is such a blame culture even from players like McLean who are not criticised for lack of effort. Watch the players making themselves available for throw ins. There is obviously a throw in routine but when the opposition cut that off no other player makes any effort to make themselves available. I think that's what I mean by lack of effort and it applies to every single one of them. Most of the players are braindead. I'd bet good money that if you looked at every teams stats around giving free kicks away in our final third we'd be top or very close to being top. The squad lacks, pace, it lacks hunger, and it lacks football intelligence in spades. It's just a really shit unbalances squad populated by frauds....... |
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Post by estrangedsonoffaye on Jul 1, 2020 10:43:33 GMT
Last night we just looked totally bereft of any shape. When the subs came on I actually found it difficult to pinpoint any formation.
That coupled with some blowing our of their arses made for horrid viewing. But I personally believe there are far more technical and mental reasons behind the display. I think saying its effort alone is reductive in a lot of ways and actually masks some harsher truths.
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jul 1, 2020 10:50:04 GMT
So how many loose balls did we get to first, how many 50:50s do you remember us winning? How many players covered for each other? I thought a telling moment was the first goal when McLean watched a player run onto the ball in the box who was completely free. Instead of closing him down as the nearest player to the ball McLean put out his hands as if to say where are the rest of you it's not my job, leaving the player completely free to put in the dangerous cross which ultimately became the goal. We have focused on Jack and Ryan but what about James? This is my problem with the whole squad - they do not play or cover for each other and I mean none of them (except formerly Allen and also probably Ryan is exempt). There is such a blame culture even from players like McLean who are not criticised for lack of effort. Watch the players making themselves available for throw ins. There is obviously a throw in routine but when the opposition cut that off no other player makes any effort to make themselves available. I think that's what I mean by lack of effort and it applies to every single one of them. Most of the players are braindead. I'd bet good money that if you looked at every teams stats around giving free kicks away in our final third we'd be top or very close to being top. The squad lacks, pace, it lacks hunger, and it lacks football intelligence in spades. It's just a really shit unbalances squad populated by frauds....... Which is all spot on, you're right, so what has changed from when we had promotion form before the break to now, the players haven't they're the same paceless hungerless thickos....... |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 10:53:47 GMT
So how many loose balls did we get to first, how many 50:50s do you remember us winning? How many players covered for each other? I thought a telling moment was the first goal when McLean watched a player run onto the ball in the box who was completely free. Instead of closing him down as the nearest player to the ball McLean put out his hands as if to say where are the rest of you it's not my job, leaving the player completely free to put in the dangerous cross which ultimately became the goal. We have focused on Jack and Ryan but what about James? This is my problem with the whole squad - they do not play or cover for each other and I mean none of them (except formerly Allen and also probably Ryan is exempt). There is such a blame culture even from players like McLean who are not criticised for lack of effort. Watch the players making themselves available for throw ins. There is obviously a throw in routine but when the opposition cut that off no other player makes any effort to make themselves available. I think that's what I mean by lack of effort and it applies to every single one of them. McClean is awful defensively. Expecting McClean to track runners is daft imo. He doesn’t do it. He’s shown he can’t do it and doesn’t have the brain to spot it. By the time he noticed it was too late. Again I don’t think that’s a lack of effort just him being thick and something we know he does. Allen doesn’t cover the squad either. There’s usually a massive hole in midfield when he plays. Again nothing new. And not down to effort but talent and a lack of brain. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 1, 2020 10:54:34 GMT
Most of the players are braindead. I'd bet good money that if you looked at every teams stats around giving free kicks away in our final third we'd be top or very close to being top. The squad lacks, pace, it lacks hunger, and it lacks football intelligence in spades. It's just a really shit unbalances squad populated by frauds....... Which is all spot on, you're right, so what has changed from when we had promotion form before the break to now, the players haven't they're the same paceless hungerless thickos....... Much though I hate to say it, Allen. I said second half v Hull that despite winning that half we looked nowhere near as good and I worried for the rest of the season |
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Post by deadwait on Jul 1, 2020 10:55:21 GMT
So you’re telling me Collins Shawcross Batth Ward Cousins Thompson McClean and Vokes didn’t put effort in? It makes you weep when you see Vokes stunning header v Belgium in Euro 2016 but then again 4 years is a long time in football. As you said he looks heavy legged and has the springing capacity of Douglas Bader I saw a replay of that match. Yes Vokes, a wonderful header. Chester was as solid as a rock and Allen absolutely ran the show. I have no problem at all with Joe, but whatever happened to the other two ? |
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jul 1, 2020 10:56:02 GMT
Which is all spot on, you're right, so what has changed from when we had promotion form before the break to now, the players haven't they're the same paceless hungerless thickos....... Much though I hate to say it, Allen. I said second half v Hull that despite winning that half we looked nowhere near as good and I worried for the rest of the season He’s one of the worst for exposing the defence. |
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Post by nottsover60 on Jul 1, 2020 10:57:28 GMT
So how many loose balls did we get to first, how many 50:50s do you remember us winning? How many players covered for each other? I thought a telling moment was the first goal when McLean watched a player run onto the ball in the box who was completely free. Instead of closing him down as the nearest player to the ball McLean put out his hands as if to say where are the rest of you it's not my job, leaving the player completely free to put in the dangerous cross which ultimately became the goal. We have focused on Jack and Ryan but what about James? This is my problem with the whole squad - they do not play or cover for each other and I mean none of them (except formerly Allen and also probably Ryan is exempt). There is such a blame culture even from players like McLean who are not criticised for lack of effort. Watch the players making themselves available for throw ins. There is obviously a throw in routine but when the opposition cut that off no other player makes any effort to make themselves available. I think that's what I mean by lack of effort and it applies to every single one of them. McClean is awful defensively. Expecting McClean to track runners is daft imo. He doesn’t do it. He’s shown he can’t do it and doesn’t have the brain to spot it. By the time he noticed it was too late. Again I don’t think that’s a lack of effort just him being thick and something we know he does. Allen doesn’t cover the squad either. There’s usually a massive hole in midfield when he plays. Again nothing new. And not down to effort but talent and a lack of brain. I can accept Mclean's lack of brain but he did see the runner last night but instead of doing his usual delayed reaction closing down he stood with his hands out saying who should be stopping him it's not my job. |
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