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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2020 15:05:30 GMT
Alex Neil was our first choice and for a short while we thought we'd got him in the bag, we only turned to O'Neill once Neil finally said no on the Tuesday. I'm glad he did turn us down tbh. There'd have been a big expectation with him and I'm not sure he'd have done the job needed. There was lots of suspicion surrounding MON and his time in club football etc. I liked that because it totally underestimated him. Alex Neil didn't turn us down as was never happening 24 hours after we enquired. We approached Preston on the Friday think it was and wasn't happening by the following day. Preston reported us for an illegal approach the day they played Charlton think it was but Alex Neil was never offered the job. We never even spoke to him. Preston didn't let it go any further than an enquiry. O'Neill wasn't an after thought either. Was another manager we were keen on and was one more under contract who I never found out who it was but was also a Championship manager. I know 100% it wasn't Lee Bowyer. For the record my guess was Warburton at QPR but got got a smirk when asked from a particular chap and neither a yes or no.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 9:43:07 GMT
O'Neill still has to prove himself - which I think he could do. But the fact is the season as we know it ends with us being a mere 3 pts above relegation. Harsh. I think. We were becoming cut adrift before he arrived. I didn't say he got us into relegation trouble. But he didn't get us out of that. He still has to win us a cup game and he has to stop us getting belted which we did once or twice even after he appeared to have turned things around. He might have reached a comfortable lower midtable position, but fate intervened, and so it's next season that he'll have to show what he can do, which I think he will.
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Post by cheadlepotter on May 22, 2020 10:20:16 GMT
Harsh. I think. We were becoming cut adrift before he arrived. I didn't say he got us into relegation trouble. But he didn't get us out of that. He still has to win us a cup game and he has to stop us getting belted which we did once or twice even after he appeared to have turned things around. He might have reached a comfortable lower midtable position, but fate intervened, and so it's next season that he'll have to show what he can do, which I think he will. Which is the lowest placed team in the Championship you don’t consider to be in a relegation battle? Pretending this virus didn’t exist and we’ve just played our 37th game.
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Post by scfc75 on May 22, 2020 10:23:10 GMT
Harsh. I think. We were becoming cut adrift before he arrived. I didn't say he got us into relegation trouble. But he didn't get us out of that. He still has to win us a cup game and he has to stop us getting belted which we did once or twice even after he appeared to have turned things around. He might have reached a comfortable lower midtable position, but fate intervened, and so it's next season that he'll have to show what he can do, which I think he will. To be fair I don’t think anybody would have got us ‘safe’ by this stage. If you started the league table when he took over, we would be 9th, just 1pt off the playoffs. He did that with a team who looked like losing every single week before he turned up. I think what he has achieved in less than half a season is very impressive tbh. Get your point about the two heavy defeats, but again given the fact that we looked doomed when he arrived, I’m willing to give him a little leeway. He’s not a miracle worker. I agree, next season has a lot of promise (whenever that is).
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 22, 2020 10:46:10 GMT
O'Neill still has to prove himself - which I think he could do. But the fact is the season as we know it ends with us being a mere 3 pts above relegation. Jones gets the blame for our very poor season, but we suffered some bad results under O'Neill too. We won't know how good he is until the next season as we know it gets under way. I think just about any manager could have improved on Jones. Pardew specialises in that sort of thing (then later makes himself untolerable), but it's hard to think of an established manager who wouldn't have done much better than our clown. So as I say, O*Neill still has to prove himself next season. I really don't think many would have saved us this season. I think it's a miracle from where we were.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 12:25:01 GMT
O'Neill still has to prove himself - which I think he could do. But the fact is the season as we know it ends with us being a mere 3 pts above relegation. Jones gets the blame for our very poor season, but we suffered some bad results under O'Neill too. We won't know how good he is until the next season as we know it gets under way. I think just about any manager could have improved on Jones. Pardew specialises in that sort of thing (then later makes himself untolerable), but it's hard to think of an established manager who wouldn't have done much better than our clown. So as I say, O*Neill still has to prove himself next season. I really don't think many would have saved us this season. I think it's a miracle from where we were. Absolutely. When you look at our record this season before he came we were done. We did have the odd defeat but the nature of this league. Few teams go up these days without a fair few losses. I saw Huddersfield twice on TV the year they went up, both times beaten 4-0. The thought of scoring 3 goals in a game was asking too much before MON came, he's managed to transform us into a team who is not only creating but scoring goals. He hasn't just taken us out of the drop zone but did it quickly and we've not returned and at a time when other teams around us have been showing great form which is why other teams have been sucked in who were looking more play off than relegation contenders in say November.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 13:02:30 GMT
He looks like he's going to keep faith with the same men that by and large are the same ones that got us into trouble with Jones. It's very true that O'Neill was able to resurrect players, Powell and Campbell especially so, but what happens if we start off next season only half as badly as we did under Jones. Will the players' limp truer selves resurface?
That's when O'Neill has to be able to put his foot down, which I think he can, but I'm not convinced he can get Ince to put his foot in or Gregory to score goals.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 22, 2020 13:10:30 GMT
I really don't think many would have saved us this season. I think it's a miracle from where we were. Absolutely. When you look at our record this season before he came we were done. We did have the odd defeat but the nature of this league. Few teams go up these days without a fair few losses. I saw Huddersfield twice on TV the year they went up, both times beaten 4-0. The thought of scoring 3 goals in a game was asking too much before MON came, he's managed to transform us into a team who is not only creating but scoring goals. He hasn't just taken us out of the drop zone but did it quickly and we've not returned and at a time when other teams around us have been showing great form which is why other teams have been sucked in who were looking more play off than relegation contenders in say November. Under Jones this season Pos Team P W D L GF GA W D L GF GA GD Pts 24 Stoke City 15 1 1 6 8 15 1 1 5 5 12 -14 8 Under MON this season Pos Team P W D L GF GA W D L GF GA GD Pts 8 Stoke City 22 7 2 2 21 9 3 2 6 15 19 8 34 As you say he's taken a team that looked down and out to a team showing play off form. EDIT - it comes out shit. Jones - Played 15 Won 2 Drawn 2 Lost 11 For - 13 Against - 27 Difference - -14 Points 8 MON Played 22 Won 10 Drawn 4 Lost 8 For - 36 Against - 28 Difference - 8 Points 34
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 13:17:21 GMT
Absolutely. When you look at our record this season before he came we were done. We did have the odd defeat but the nature of this league. Few teams go up these days without a fair few losses. I saw Huddersfield twice on TV the year they went up, both times beaten 4-0. The thought of scoring 3 goals in a game was asking too much before MON came, he's managed to transform us into a team who is not only creating but scoring goals. He hasn't just taken us out of the drop zone but did it quickly and we've not returned and at a time when other teams around us have been showing great form which is why other teams have been sucked in who were looking more play off than relegation contenders in say November. Under Jones this season Pos Team P W D L GF GA W D L GF GA GD Pts 24 Stoke City 15 1 1 6 8 15 1 1 5 5 12 -14 8 Under MON this season Pos Team P W D L GF GA W D L GF GA GD Pts 8 Stoke City 22 7 2 2 21 9 3 2 6 15 19 8 34 As you say he's taken a team that looked down and out to a team showing play off form. EDIT - it comes out shit. Jones - Played 15 Won 2 Drawn 2 Lost 11 For - 13 Against - 27 Difference - -14 Points 8 MON Played 22 Won 10 Drawn 4 Lost 8 For - 36 Against - 28 Difference - 8 Points 34 We really were screwed under Jones reading that
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 13:35:44 GMT
Absolutely. When you look at our record this season before he came we were done. We did have the odd defeat but the nature of this league. Few teams go up these days without a fair few losses. I saw Huddersfield twice on TV the year they went up, both times beaten 4-0. The thought of scoring 3 goals in a game was asking too much before MON came, he's managed to transform us into a team who is not only creating but scoring goals. He hasn't just taken us out of the drop zone but did it quickly and we've not returned and at a time when other teams around us have been showing great form which is why other teams have been sucked in who were looking more play off than relegation contenders in say November. Under Jones this season Pos Team P W D L GF GA W D L GF GA GD Pts 24 Stoke City 15 1 1 6 8 15 1 1 5 5 12 -14 8 Under MON this season Pos Team P W D L GF GA W D L GF GA GD Pts 8 Stoke City 22 7 2 2 21 9 3 2 6 15 19 8 34 As you say he's taken a team that looked down and out to a team showing play off form. EDIT - it comes out shit. Jones - Played 15 Won 2 Drawn 2 Lost 11 For - 13 Against - 27 Difference - -14 Points 8 MON Played 22 Won 10 Drawn 4 Lost 8 For - 36 Against - 28 Difference - 8 Points 34 I don't think it's a valid comparison. New managers usually/often bring a succession of good results - that's where Pardew comes in again and by the way, Jones was an exceptional exception to the rule - but many are not able to keep it up after the honeymoon is over (Pardew again, but many others). That's why a truer comparison won't come into effect until next season.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 22, 2020 13:41:43 GMT
Under Jones this season Pos Team P W D L GF GA W D L GF GA GD Pts 24 Stoke City 15 1 1 6 8 15 1 1 5 5 12 -14 8 Under MON this season Pos Team P W D L GF GA W D L GF GA GD Pts 8 Stoke City 22 7 2 2 21 9 3 2 6 15 19 8 34 As you say he's taken a team that looked down and out to a team showing play off form. EDIT - it comes out shit. Jones - Played 15 Won 2 Drawn 2 Lost 11 For - 13 Against - 27 Difference - -14 Points 8 MON Played 22 Won 10 Drawn 4 Lost 8 For - 36 Against - 28 Difference - 8 Points 34 I don't think it's a valid comparison. New managers usually/often bring a succession of good results - that's where Pardew comes in again and by the way, Jones was an exceptional exception to the rule - but many are not able to keep it up after the honeymoon is over (Pardew again, but many others). That's why a truer comparison won't come into effect until next season. He took a team that didn't know how to win, that didn't look like it knew how to function and turned them into a play off form team. 22 games is more than new manager bounce. There is no comparison you're right. One was an absolute joke, the other a miracle worker.
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Post by mickstupp on May 22, 2020 14:08:16 GMT
I don't think it's a valid comparison. New managers usually/often bring a succession of good results - that's where Pardew comes in again and by the way, Jones was an exceptional exception to the rule - but many are not able to keep it up after the honeymoon is over (Pardew again, but many others). That's why a truer comparison won't come into effect until next season. He took a team that didn't know how to win, that didn't look like it knew how to function and turned them into a play off form team. 22 games is more than new manager bounce. There is no comparison you're right. One was an absolute joke, the other a miracle worker. Interesting stats. Firstly, it goes to show how utterly shit Jones was. Secondly, despite a couple of setbacks and poor results away from home, a full season of MON would give us 71 points and a stab at top 6. If he figures out how to keep the goals flowing whilst defending leads successfully away from home (11 points squandered from winning positions at Hull, Boro, QPR and Luton) and we could really be in business.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 22, 2020 14:11:15 GMT
He took a team that didn't know how to win, that didn't look like it knew how to function and turned them into a play off form team. 22 games is more than new manager bounce. There is no comparison you're right. One was an absolute joke, the other a miracle worker. Interesting stats. Firstly, it goes to show how utterly shit Jones was. Secondly, despite a couple of setbacks and poor results away from home, a full season of MON would give us 71 points and a stab at top 6. If he figures out how to keep the goals flowing whilst defending leads successfully away from home (11 points squandered from winning positions at Hull, Boro, QPR and Luton) and we could really be in business. Definitely. And there's still clearly some issues of course there is. Ideally I wouldn't want Butland Batth and Chester as starters next season and we've needed a new left back now for yonks. But even with that little lot at the back we've looked so much better under him.
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Post by mickstupp on May 22, 2020 14:13:56 GMT
Interesting stats. Firstly, it goes to show how utterly shit Jones was. Secondly, despite a couple of setbacks and poor results away from home, a full season of MON would give us 71 points and a stab at top 6. If he figures out how to keep the goals flowing whilst defending leads successfully away from home (11 points squandered from winning positions at Hull, Boro, QPR and Luton) and we could really be in business. Definitely. And there's still clearly some issues of course there is. Ideally I wouldn't want Butland Batth and Chester as starters next season and we've needed a new left back now for yonks. But even with that little lot at the back we've looked so much better under him. Yes, even lost causes like Lindsay have improved. I’d like to see Shawcross and Collins start as first choice central defenders, but the real key signing for us, even more so than a left back, is a really good quality defensive midfielder.
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Post by flea79 on May 22, 2020 15:54:42 GMT
Definitely. And there's still clearly some issues of course there is. Ideally I wouldn't want Butland Batth and Chester as starters next season and we've needed a new left back now for yonks. But even with that little lot at the back we've looked so much better under him. Yes, even lost causes like Lindsay have improved. I’d like to see Shawcross and Collins start as first choice central defenders, but the real key signing for us, even more so than a left back, is a really good quality defensive midfielder. tin hat going on here but isnt it time we started phasing Shawcross out, his best days are behind him, his attitude is no doubt fantastic and he would be one to keep at the club to help coach the kids and maybe in time the first team but he was part of the shambles that has us where we are and his injury record isnt great
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 22, 2020 16:13:13 GMT
Yes, even lost causes like Lindsay have improved. I’d like to see Shawcross and Collins start as first choice central defenders, but the real key signing for us, even more so than a left back, is a really good quality defensive midfielder. tin hat going on here but isnt it time we started phasing Shawcross out, his best days are behind him, his attitude is no doubt fantastic and he would be one to keep at the club to help coach the kids and maybe in time the first team but he was part of the shambles that has us where we are and his injury record isnt great He's still the best CB at the club when fit. So no. Using him more wisely? Absolutely yes but him and Collins for most games seems ideal to me.
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Post by lordb on May 22, 2020 16:32:57 GMT
Yes, even lost causes like Lindsay have improved. I’d like to see Shawcross and Collins start as first choice central defenders, but the real key signing for us, even more so than a left back, is a really good quality defensive midfielder. tin hat going on here but isnt it time we started phasing Shawcross out, his best days are behind him, his attitude is no doubt fantastic and he would be one to keep at the club to help coach the kids and maybe in time the first team but he was part of the shambles that has us where we are and his injury record isnt great But he was excellent for the few games he did play under O'Neill.
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Post by lordb on May 22, 2020 16:35:04 GMT
tin hat going on here but isnt it time we started phasing Shawcross out, his best days are behind him, his attitude is no doubt fantastic and he would be one to keep at the club to help coach the kids and maybe in time the first team but he was part of the shambles that has us where we are and his injury record isnt great He's still the best CB at the club when fit. So no. Using him more wisely? Absolutely yes but him and Collins for most games seems ideal to me. +Souttar Lyndsey and Batth that's plenty I'd assume Bruno will finally move on Left back... ...been going since 1978 and can only think of a few decent left backs in that time. Why do we struggle to get good ones?
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2020 18:45:09 GMT
I don't think it's a valid comparison. New managers usually/often bring a succession of good results - that's where Pardew comes in again and by the way, Jones was an exceptional exception to the rule - but many are not able to keep it up after the honeymoon is over (Pardew again, but many others). That's why a truer comparison won't come into effect until next season. He took a team that didn't know how to win, that didn't look like it knew how to function and turned them into a play off form team. 22 games is more than new manager bounce. There is no comparison you're right. One was an absolute joke, the other a miracle worker. That's exactly what I'm afraid of. The absolute joke was a miracle worker a year ago. Not everyone believed in him, but a lot did. O'Neill is a steady guy, not a miracle worker.
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Post by Gary Hackett on May 23, 2020 0:21:38 GMT
If it hasn't have been O'Neill or Pulis we'd probably have been relegated.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 23, 2020 0:50:28 GMT
He took a team that didn't know how to win, that didn't look like it knew how to function and turned them into a play off form team. 22 games is more than new manager bounce. There is no comparison you're right. One was an absolute joke, the other a miracle worker. That's exactly what I'm afraid of. The absolute joke was a miracle worker a year ago. Not everyone believed in him, but a lot did. O'Neill is a steady guy, not a miracle worker. No he wasn’t. He came with great fanfare. I sussed him after one game but hoped it was a one off (the Shrewsbury cup game). I gave him the summer because sacking managers so often is bad but ultimately I wanted him gone. The summer transfers cemented that. I don’t think bar a real hardcore Jones fanbase (that was far too big but almost exclusively an Internet thing for fans ages 12-24) most fans thought he was a saviour much past his few games. Most were willing to stick with him because it seemed the like the only thing to do after such a manager merry go round.
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2020 20:01:04 GMT
That's exactly what I'm afraid of. The absolute joke was a miracle worker a year ago. Not everyone believed in him, but a lot did. O'Neill is a steady guy, not a miracle worker. No he wasn’t. He came with great fanfare. I sussed him after one game but hoped it was a one off (the Shrewsbury cup game). I gave him the summer because sacking managers so often is bad but ultimately I wanted him gone. The summer transfers cemented that. I don’t think bar a real hardcore Jones fanbase (that was far too big but almost exclusively an Internet thing for fans ages 12-24) most fans thought he was a saviour much past his few games. Most were willing to stick with him because it seemed the like the only thing to do after such a manager merry go round. I'm not talking about how it turned out. I'm referring to the way he was perceived by board members and large sections of the supporters, and that Was definitely in awe and expectation. But Bob Dylan was right; even though he could never have heard of Nathan back in 1965 when he wrote his song; he had him exactly sussed out.
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Post by BristolMick on May 23, 2020 20:35:21 GMT
It would have been Pulis, he was very close to getting the job, if Coates Snr had got his way he'd have been here. MON was Coates Jnr choice and he got his way. Pulis was probably the only other manager (who was willing to come to Stoke) that would have kept us up. Gouranga. Thank god Junior got his way then because now we have the most united fan base we’ve had since Macari. BM
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Post by AlbertTatlock on May 23, 2020 21:05:40 GMT
It would have been Pulis, he was very close to getting the job, if Coates Snr had got his way he'd have been here. MON was Coates Jnr choice and he got his way. Pulis was probably the only other manager (who was willing to come to Stoke) that would have kept us up. Gouranga. Thank god Junior got his way then because now we have the most united fan base we’ve had since Macari. BM Yeah I don't disagree but at the time I'd have welcomed the capped one back with open arms if he was to save our season and stop us from getting relegated and considering some of the names that were being bounded about as possible replacements he wouldn't have been such a bad choice. And don't forget some of the best times we've ever had as Stoke fans were down to Pulis. Gouranga.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 23, 2020 21:09:00 GMT
No he wasn’t. He came with great fanfare. I sussed him after one game but hoped it was a one off (the Shrewsbury cup game). I gave him the summer because sacking managers so often is bad but ultimately I wanted him gone. The summer transfers cemented that. I don’t think bar a real hardcore Jones fanbase (that was far too big but almost exclusively an Internet thing for fans ages 12-24) most fans thought he was a saviour much past his few games. Most were willing to stick with him because it seemed the like the only thing to do after such a manager merry go round. I'm not talking about how it turned out. I'm referring to the way he was perceived by board members and large sections of the supporters, and that Was definitely in awe and expectation. But Bob Dylan was right; even though he could never have heard of Nathan back in 1965 when he wrote his song; he had him exactly sussed out. I don’t think it was a large section of the fanbase at all. At the ground we all knew what Jones was. The Stoke fans at work bar one who was a proper Jones fan thought he was total shite. There was a hardcore and it was far too big but most people in the real world seemed to lose time for Jones pretty early on.
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Post by Pugsley on May 23, 2020 21:22:53 GMT
I'm not talking about how it turned out. I'm referring to the way he was perceived by board members and large sections of the supporters, and that Was definitely in awe and expectation. But Bob Dylan was right; even though he could never have heard of Nathan back in 1965 when he wrote his song; he had him exactly sussed out. I don’t think it was a large section of the fanbase at all. At the ground we all knew what Jones was. The Stoke fans at work bar one who was a proper Jones fan thought he was total shite. There was a hardcore and it was far too big but most people in the real world seemed to lose time for Jones pretty early on. Lots of people were desperate for him to succeed after the whole Hughes, Lambert, Rowett debacle. He was the up and coming manager and did great things at Luton, plus he talked a good game. You could see why people were taken in. Like you say, it became apparent that he was way out of his depth.
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Post by bayernoatcake on May 23, 2020 21:29:17 GMT
I don’t think it was a large section of the fanbase at all. At the ground we all knew what Jones was. The Stoke fans at work bar one who was a proper Jones fan thought he was total shite. There was a hardcore and it was far too big but most people in the real world seemed to lose time for Jones pretty early on. Lots of people were desperate for him to succeed after the whole Hughes, Lambert, Rowett debacle. He was the up and coming manager and did great things at Luton, plus he talked a good game. You could see why people were taken in. Like you say, it became apparent that he was way out of his depth. Oh God yeah. I was too. It’s only fair and right.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2020 9:46:57 GMT
I'm not talking about how it turned out. I'm referring to the way he was perceived by board members and large sections of the supporters, and that Was definitely in awe and expectation. But Bob Dylan was right; even though he could never have heard of Nathan back in 1965 when he wrote his song; he had him exactly sussed out. I don’t think it was a large section of the fanbase at all. At the ground we all knew what Jones was. The Stoke fans at work bar one who was a proper Jones fan thought he was total shite. There was a hardcore and it was far too big but most people in the real world seemed to lose time for Jones pretty early on. You're still talking about what happened. I'm talking about what was before it started unravelling. I don't believe that you could see after the Shrewsbury game that he was a nut case. No one could - although I was an early dissenter too and was heavily abused for it. People were taken in as Pugsley says and it was still on going in pre season. Promotion was a foregone conclusion. But after the qpr opening game of this/last season the wool was finally pulled from most eyes and it only went downhill from that point on, as you say. Every decision Jones could make that was wrong, he made them.
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Post by lordb on May 24, 2020 9:55:52 GMT
I don’t think it was a large section of the fanbase at all. At the ground we all knew what Jones was. The Stoke fans at work bar one who was a proper Jones fan thought he was total shite. There was a hardcore and it was far too big but most people in the real world seemed to lose time for Jones pretty early on. You're still talking about what happened. I'm talking about what was before it started unravelling. I don't believe that you could see after the Shrewsbury game that he was a nut case. No one could - although I was an early dissenter too and was heavily abused for it. People were taken in as Pugsley says and it was still on going in pre season. Promotion was a foregone conclusion. But after the qpr opening game of this/last season the wool was finally pulled from most eyes and it only went downhill from that point on, as you say. Every decision Jones could make that was wrong, he made them. I agree The QPR game was a huge alarm bell, relegation battle not promotion was on the cards.
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Post by lordb on May 24, 2020 9:56:48 GMT
Anyway bollocks to the previous failures O'Neill is clearly the best manager we could possibly get let's hope he feels the same about us.
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