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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 9:35:15 GMT
Labour and the " Left" have created a situation in which the only way in which we can hope to get any political change is by reform of the electoral system away from fptp. An extremely difficult thing to change , it is going to take an extremely different political climate to do so. It could probably only happen on the back of other policies....and of course the party in power won't want to change the system. The concept of " relying" on the electorate's vote is part of the problem......the professional politicians' love that......it's us or them. We had a few months experience of what PR could produce during the brexit negotiations I think I'll take my chances with FPTP...... Not for me FYD, it is not a representative democracy. More people voted in the EU referendum than any other previous UK election. Every vote counted. PR may not be perfect, no system is, but it would ( I'm the medium and long term) encourage more debate and eventually consensus than we have now. The cartel of two party politics isn't serving the country well at the moment. In my opinion.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 16, 2021 9:41:47 GMT
His response is there for all to see he is asked about whether its right to hold a discussion on whetner the holocaust happened or not that is the easiest question to answer ever and he fails twice so the letter is meaningless. Here's you boy comparing the israeli ambassador to the uk to Joseph Goebbels I guess you wont be seeing any racism here either...... Certainly not language I’d use personally. Many people believe the state of Israel to be a racist endeavour, it’s why they argued against the IHRA definition which suppresses the right to argue that. “Goebbels propaganda” is a fairly well used phrase. As this is a Starmer thread what grounds has Trevor Phillips being brought back into the party, seems to be major inconsistency there? It's not a well used phrase amongst my circle of friends and when its aimed at the ambassador of a democratic company and the comparison is to a representative of a regime that killed 6 million people of the same faith, its deliberately higly offensive and racist, its amazing to hear all these problems the left has with the IHRA definition of anti semitism yet these same people seemingly feel no need to tell black people or muslims or any other minority what they should find racist. The truth is the left believes anti semitism is only real from the far right, anyone from the far left is just being falsely attacked. Loach is kicked out amazingly not for his long list of problematic actions and statements but because he remains a member / supporter of a proscribed group, as for Phillips not seen what he has said but the idea a former head of the CRE and EHRC, a black man who grew up in britain in the 60s is a racist and anything he has said or has done is on the same level as your wreath laying hero and his mates is laughable.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 16, 2021 9:51:54 GMT
We had a few months experience of what PR could produce during the brexit negotiations I think I'll take my chances with FPTP...... Not for me FYD, it is not a representative democracy. More people voted in the EU referendum than any other previous UK election. Every vote counted. PR may not be perfect, no system is, but it would ( I'm the medium and long term) encourage more debate and eventually consensus than we have now. The cartel of two party politics isn't serving the country well at the moment. In my opinion. Each to their own I dont want to see bnp or edl mps, the complete inability of mps to work together during brexit and the complete inertia caused by the benn act I would not want to see repeated ever. There are far more easier ways to make things more democratic you could make certain long term spending decisions (health, education, social care, pensions type decisions) require 80% or 85% of all mps to vote for the decision or make it you required 50% of oppodition mps to back a decision, thereby removing party politics short termism, other less important decisions can go through as now on a simple majority.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 16, 2021 9:53:15 GMT
Certainly not language I’d use personally. Many people believe the state of Israel to be a racist endeavour, it’s why they argued against the IHRA definition which suppresses the right to argue that. “Goebbels propaganda” is a fairly well used phrase. As this is a Starmer thread what grounds has Trevor Phillips being brought back into the party, seems to be major inconsistency there? It's not a well used phrase amongst my circle of friends and when its aimed at the ambassador of a democratic company and the comparison is to a representative of a regime that killed 6 million people of the same faith, its deliberately higly offensive and racist, its amazing to hear all these problems the left has with the IHRA definition of anti semitism yet these same people seemingly feel no need to tell black people or muslims or any other minority what they should find racist. The truth is the left believes anti semitism is only real from the far right, anyone from the far left is just being falsely attacked. Loach is kicked out amazingly not for his long list of problematic actions and statements but because he remains a member / supporter of a proscribed group, as for Phillips not seen what he has said but the idea a former head of the CRE and EHRC, a black man who grew up in britain in the 60s is a racist and anything he has said or has done is on the same level as your wreath laying hero and his mates is laughable. So you've not seen any of Phillips comments but have made the assumption that he can't be racist because he's black? It's almost like specifics aren't that important to you....... And you're waffling again.......
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 10:05:29 GMT
Not for me FYD, it is not a representative democracy. More people voted in the EU referendum than any other previous UK election. Every vote counted. PR may not be perfect, no system is, but it would ( I'm the medium and long term) encourage more debate and eventually consensus than we have now. The cartel of two party politics isn't serving the country well at the moment. In my opinion. Each to their own I dont want to see bnp or edl mps, the complete inability of mps to work together during brexit and the complete inertia caused by the benn act I would not want to see repeated ever. There are far more easier ways to make things more democratic you could make certain long term spending decisions (health, education, social care, pensions type decisions) require 80% or 85% of all mps to vote for the decision or make it you required 50% of oppodition mps to back a decision, thereby removing party politics short termism, other less important decisions can go through as now on a simple majority. The referendum wasn't an example of PR in " normal " elections. It was a binary referendum. You might get more Green types than BNP ......in my opinion you would. The answer isn't to discourage people from taking part....which is what the current system does.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 16, 2021 11:13:30 GMT
Each to their own I dont want to see bnp or edl mps, the complete inability of mps to work together during brexit and the complete inertia caused by the benn act I would not want to see repeated ever. There are far more easier ways to make things more democratic you could make certain long term spending decisions (health, education, social care, pensions type decisions) require 80% or 85% of all mps to vote for the decision or make it you required 50% of oppodition mps to back a decision, thereby removing party politics short termism, other less important decisions can go through as now on a simple majority. The referendum wasn't an example of PR in " normal " elections. It was a binary referendum. You might get more Green types than BNP ......in my opinion you would. The answer isn't to discourage people from taking part....which is what the current system does. I disagree the taking part where people have most chance to influence things is local council and mayoral elections yet these are amongst the lowest turnouts of all votes.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 16, 2021 11:22:27 GMT
It's not a well used phrase amongst my circle of friends and when its aimed at the ambassador of a democratic company and the comparison is to a representative of a regime that killed 6 million people of the same faith, its deliberately higly offensive and racist, its amazing to hear all these problems the left has with the IHRA definition of anti semitism yet these same people seemingly feel no need to tell black people or muslims or any other minority what they should find racist. The truth is the left believes anti semitism is only real from the far right, anyone from the far left is just being falsely attacked. Loach is kicked out amazingly not for his long list of problematic actions and statements but because he remains a member / supporter of a proscribed group, as for Phillips not seen what he has said but the idea a former head of the CRE and EHRC, a black man who grew up in britain in the 60s is a racist and anything he has said or has done is on the same level as your wreath laying hero and his mates is laughable. So you've not seen any of Phillips comments but have made the assumption that he can't be racist because he's black? It's almost like specifics aren't that important to you....... And you're waffling again....... Yes I am saying it is highly unlikely he is racist based on his upbringing and career, no doubt he may have said something offensive or that some people may want to portray his comments as racist but an actual racist very unlikely unless you of course have pictures of him laying wreaths with Tommy Robinson or some terrorist group although weirdly that doesn't always count for you. In all these years of labour racism allegations what are the odds the only one you seem to have ever commented on is a black man who criticised your beloved leader for inaction on antisemitism, everyone else you have been happy to give a pass too. And there was no waffle in the previous post I notice you deploy that as a deflection when the questions become too difficult like why does Ken Loach spend so much time defending holocaust deniers perhaps you could make something up like you did with the imagined BBC interview.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 11:25:54 GMT
The referendum wasn't an example of PR in " normal " elections. It was a binary referendum. You might get more Green types than BNP ......in my opinion you would. The answer isn't to discourage people from taking part....which is what the current system does. I disagree the taking part where people have most chance to influence things is local council and mayoral elections yet these are amongst the lowest turnouts of all votes. Local council is a different kettle of fish....but we should also look at local councils.....perhaps fptp is part of the problem there.....along with party allegiance which is often irrelevant to local issues.. I usually prefer am indeed candidate. More people , but not enough, are enthused by the national elections, more interested in who might become PM....unfortunately fptp relegated it to Labour or Tory....it might be possible to move on from the 1970s class politics to more consensus politics ( yes , I know about Italy, but it doesn't have to be like that(. The current system favours career politicians and prevents any creative thinking/ thinking out of the box.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 16, 2021 11:34:01 GMT
So you've not seen any of Phillips comments but have made the assumption that he can't be racist because he's black? It's almost like specifics aren't that important to you....... And you're waffling again....... Yes I am saying it is highly unlikely he is racist based on his upbringing and career, no doubt he may have said something offensive or that some people may want to portray his comments as racist but an actual racist very unlikely unless you of course have pictures of him laying wreaths with Tommy Robinson or some terrorist group although weirdly that doesn't always count for you. In all these years of labour racism allegations what are the odds the only one you seem to have ever commented on is a black man who criticised your beloved leader for inaction on antisemitism, everyone else you have been happy to give a pass too. And there was no waffle in the previous post I notice you deploy that as a deflection when the questions become too difficult like why does Ken Loach spend so much time defending holocaust deniers perhaps you could make something up like you did with the imagined BBC interview. So in his case saying something offensive doesn't make him a racist, but for others less so. If Ken Loach made the video below about Rich and Powerful Jews you'd be calling him out for subscribing to anti-semitic tropes and telling me how he can't possibly be "anti-racist" And on just a few of Phillips comments below, replace the word "Muslim" with "Jew" and you'd be shaking like a shitting dog with faux outrage: And as for the rest you're just making shit up again, I've commented on lots and lots of issues and examples.........
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 16, 2021 11:41:28 GMT
I disagree the taking part where people have most chance to influence things is local council and mayoral elections yet these are amongst the lowest turnouts of all votes. Local council is a different kettle of fish....but we should also look at local councils.....perhaps fptp is part of the problem there.....along with party allegiance which is often irrelevant to local issues.. I usually prefer am indeed candidate. More people , but not enough, are enthused by the national elections, more interested in who might become PM....unfortunately fptp relegated it to Labour or Tory....it might be possible to move on from the 1970s class politics to more consensus politics ( yes , I know about Italy, but it doesn't have to be like that(. The current system favours career politicians and prevents any creative thinking/ thinking out of the box. The current system favours career politicians 😁 Compared to PR first past the post is almost a risky business having to individually face the pesky electorate every now and again Where as with PR you tow the party line cause no trouble you get a place high on the party list and bingo you get the job however much the public think your a dick The Neil Hamilton’s and Michael portillos would still of been MPs if you had pr PR a system where patronage and nepotism negates talent
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 12:03:09 GMT
Local council is a different kettle of fish....but we should also look at local councils.....perhaps fptp is part of the problem there.....along with party allegiance which is often irrelevant to local issues.. I usually prefer am indeed candidate. More people , but not enough, are enthused by the national elections, more interested in who might become PM....unfortunately fptp relegated it to Labour or Tory....it might be possible to move on from the 1970s class politics to more consensus politics ( yes , I know about Italy, but it doesn't have to be like that(. The current system favours career politicians and prevents any creative thinking/ thinking out of the box. The current system favours career politicians 😁 Compared to PR first past the post is almost a risky business having to individually face the pesky electorate every now and again Where as with PR you tow the party line cause no trouble you get a place high on the party list and bingo you get the job however much the public think your a dick The Neil Hamilton’s and Michael portillos would still of been MPs if you had pr PR a system where patronage and nepotism negates talent I agree with that Wag in the short term until ( and if ) we breakaway from the two party system. Pr would give more opportunity to smaller parties/concerns such as the Greens and encourage more involvement. All PR systems don't have to have a list.....that will only serve the existing main parties.....the EU system was flawed in that way. It is clear to me that the existing system isn't really very democratic at the moment.....not many people are happy with " politics "....and most of all those who don't even see the point in voting. Unfortunately the decision makers don't want change, it would upset their lot.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 16, 2021 12:27:43 GMT
Yes I am saying it is highly unlikely he is racist based on his upbringing and career, no doubt he may have said something offensive or that some people may want to portray his comments as racist but an actual racist very unlikely unless you of course have pictures of him laying wreaths with Tommy Robinson or some terrorist group although weirdly that doesn't always count for you. In all these years of labour racism allegations what are the odds the only one you seem to have ever commented on is a black man who criticised your beloved leader for inaction on antisemitism, everyone else you have been happy to give a pass too. And there was no waffle in the previous post I notice you deploy that as a deflection when the questions become too difficult like why does Ken Loach spend so much time defending holocaust deniers perhaps you could make something up like you did with the imagined BBC interview. So in his case saying something offensive doesn't make him a racist, but for others less so. If Ken Loach made the video below about Rich and Powerful Jews you'd be calling him out for subscribing to anti-semitic tropes and telling me how he can't possibly be "anti-racist" And on just a few of Phillips comments below, replace the word "Muslim" with "Jew" and you'd be shaking like a shitting dog with faux outrage: And as for the rest you're just making shit up again, I've commented on lots and lots of issues and examples......... metro.co.uk/2015/03/19/things-we-wont-say-about-race-that-are-true-white-people-should-be-allowed-to-talk-about-race-trevor-phillips-on-his-controversial-channel-4-documentary-5110987/Well firstly it takes mere seconds to find out he did not make a jews are rich and powerful video, he made the above program on race for Channel 4 of which this was a very minor part not sure why you would leave that out, I could disagree with some obviously flawed analysis after less than 2 minutes watching but the Jewish community as a whole doesn't seem to have a problem with him unlike Ken Loach starring with infamous perdition play and his support for holocaust deniers which again you ignore and don't address. On the other comments again it takes one Google to find a labour muslim mp who supports him and one muslim mp who does not, he was suspended by corbyn for comments made years before that caused no serious outrage at the time. It all seems a bit irrelevant to the point of Loach's expulsion as he was expelled for membership and support of a proscribed group rather than being a racist cunt, kind of ironic its Nas Shah demanding Phillips suspension but if push came to shove and that's the bar I'd be quite happy to see Phillips expelled and this applied to the rest of labour party, I'm guessing you would find the 20-30 mps expelled on the basis of similar offensive statements differently.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 16, 2021 12:43:13 GMT
So in his case saying something offensive doesn't make him a racist, but for others less so. If Ken Loach made the video below about Rich and Powerful Jews you'd be calling him out for subscribing to anti-semitic tropes and telling me how he can't possibly be "anti-racist" And on just a few of Phillips comments below, replace the word "Muslim" with "Jew" and you'd be shaking like a shitting dog with faux outrage: And as for the rest you're just making shit up again, I've commented on lots and lots of issues and examples......... metro.co.uk/2015/03/19/things-we-wont-say-about-race-that-are-true-white-people-should-be-allowed-to-talk-about-race-trevor-phillips-on-his-controversial-channel-4-documentary-5110987/Well firstly it takes mere seconds to find out he did not make a jews are rich and powerful video, he made the above program on race for Channel 4 of which this was a very minor part not sure why you would leave that out, I could disagree with some obviously flawed analysis after less than 2 minutes watching but the Jewish community as a whole doesn't seem to have a problem with him unlike Ken Loach starring with infamous perdition play and his support for holocaust deniers which again you ignore and don't address. On the other comments again it takes one Google to find a labour muslim mp who supports him and one muslim mp who does not, he was suspended by corbyn for comments made years before that caused no serious outrage at the time. It all seems a bit irrelevant to the point of Loach's expulsion as he was expelled for membership and support of a proscribed group rather than being a racist cunt, kind of ironic its Nas Shah demanding Phillips suspension but if push came to shove and that's the bar I'd be quite happy to see Phillips expelled and this applied to the rest of labour party, I'm guessing you would find the 20-30 mps expelled on the basis of similar offensive statements differently. I wasn't suggesting he specifically made a programme on "Rich and Powerful Jews" it was of course part of a general programme, but it was a slot that threw out several of the oldest antisemitic tropes in the book. "The Jewish community as a whole doesn't have a problem with him" (it's one homogenous group apparently) "One Labour MP supports him and one who doesn't" (no Muslim "community" then just two individuals to help strike a balance) Honestly the goal posts are constantly one the move with you. Perdition was put on by a Jewish director a year after it was pulled, so I'm going down the "one Jew liked the play and another didn't defence" which you seem to be happy to use. The Holocaust denier I'm assuming you're referring to Peter Gregson where Loach defending his expulsion from a union specifically on the grounds of him disagreeing with the IHRA definition of antosemitism (which many people including Loach do as it conflates antisemitism with criticism of the state of Israel). When other concerns were raised that were completely inappropriate he withdrew his support, criticised Gregson and publicly backed the GMB. The timeline of events is a matter of public record. You didn't answer the question and give me YOUR opinion by the way, do you think that the statements he made about Muslims (there are others by the way) were appropriate, and if you replaced the word "Muslims" with word "Jews" and that came out of the mouth of someone like Ken Loach would you or would you not be up in arms? No waffle just answer the question..........
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 16, 2021 12:43:20 GMT
The current system favours career politicians 😁 Compared to PR first past the post is almost a risky business having to individually face the pesky electorate every now and again Where as with PR you tow the party line cause no trouble you get a place high on the party list and bingo you get the job however much the public think your a dick The Neil Hamilton’s and Michael portillos would still of been MPs if you had pr PR a system where patronage and nepotism negates talent I agree with that Wag in the short term until ( and if ) we breakaway from the two party system. Pr would give more opportunity to smaller parties/concerns such as the Greens and encourage more involvement. All PR systems don't have to have a list.....that will only serve the existing main parties.....the EU system was flawed in that way. It is clear to me that the existing system isn't really very democratic at the moment.....not many people are happy with " politics "....and most of all those who don't even see the point in voting. Unfortunately the decision makers don't want change, it would upset their lot. That’s the problem untill someone comes up with a pr system that isn’t flawed Then there is no incentive to replace the current system
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 13:31:49 GMT
I agree with that Wag in the short term until ( and if ) we breakaway from the two party system. Pr would give more opportunity to smaller parties/concerns such as the Greens and encourage more involvement. All PR systems don't have to have a list.....that will only serve the existing main parties.....the EU system was flawed in that way. It is clear to me that the existing system isn't really very democratic at the moment.....not many people are happy with " politics "....and most of all those who don't even see the point in voting. Unfortunately the decision makers don't want change, it would upset their lot. That’s the problem untill someone comes up with a pr system that isn’t flawed Then there is no incentive to replace the current system For me the incentive is to widen representative democracy and bettering the odds on every person's vote counting. In my opinion the current system is more flawed. But we are light years away from getting any change whatsoever.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 16, 2021 14:35:40 GMT
metro.co.uk/2015/03/19/things-we-wont-say-about-race-that-are-true-white-people-should-be-allowed-to-talk-about-race-trevor-phillips-on-his-controversial-channel-4-documentary-5110987/Well firstly it takes mere seconds to find out he did not make a jews are rich and powerful video, he made the above program on race for Channel 4 of which this was a very minor part not sure why you would leave that out, I could disagree with some obviously flawed analysis after less than 2 minutes watching but the Jewish community as a whole doesn't seem to have a problem with him unlike Ken Loach starring with infamous perdition play and his support for holocaust deniers which again you ignore and don't address. On the other comments again it takes one Google to find a labour muslim mp who supports him and one muslim mp who does not, he was suspended by corbyn for comments made years before that caused no serious outrage at the time. It all seems a bit irrelevant to the point of Loach's expulsion as he was expelled for membership and support of a proscribed group rather than being a racist cunt, kind of ironic its Nas Shah demanding Phillips suspension but if push came to shove and that's the bar I'd be quite happy to see Phillips expelled and this applied to the rest of labour party, I'm guessing you would find the 20-30 mps expelled on the basis of similar offensive statements differently. I wasn't suggesting he specifically made a programme on "Rich and Powerful Jews" it was of course part of a general programme, but it was a slot that threw out several of the oldest antisemitic tropes in the book. "The Jewish community as a whole doesn't have a problem with him" (it's one homogenous group apparently) "One Labour MP supports him and one who doesn't" (no Muslim "community" then just two individuals to help strike a balance) Honestly the goal posts are constantly one the move with you. Perdition was put on by a Jewish director a year after it was pulled, so I'm going down the "one Jew liked the play and another didn't defence" which you seem to be happy to use. The Holocaust denier I'm assuming you're referring to Peter Gregson where Loach defending his expulsion from a union specifically on the grounds of him disagreeing with the IHRA definition of antosemitism (which many people including Loach do as it conflates antisemitism with criticism of the state of Israel). When other concerns were raised that were completely inappropriate he withdrew his support, criticised Gregson and publicly backed the GMB. The timeline of events is a matter of public record. You didn't answer the question and give me YOUR opinion by the way, do you think that the statements he made about Muslims (there are others by the way) were appropriate, and if you replaced the word "Muslims" with word "Jews" and that came out of the mouth of someone like Ken Loach would you or would you not be up in arms? No waffle just answer the question.......... You say disagreeing with the IHRA definition our survey says Not quite as you told yet again is it
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 16, 2021 14:41:32 GMT
I wasn't suggesting he specifically made a programme on "Rich and Powerful Jews" it was of course part of a general programme, but it was a slot that threw out several of the oldest antisemitic tropes in the book. "The Jewish community as a whole doesn't have a problem with him" (it's one homogenous group apparently) "One Labour MP supports him and one who doesn't" (no Muslim "community" then just two individuals to help strike a balance) Honestly the goal posts are constantly one the move with you. Perdition was put on by a Jewish director a year after it was pulled, so I'm going down the "one Jew liked the play and another didn't defence" which you seem to be happy to use. The Holocaust denier I'm assuming you're referring to Peter Gregson where Loach defending his expulsion from a union specifically on the grounds of him disagreeing with the IHRA definition of antosemitism (which many people including Loach do as it conflates antisemitism with criticism of the state of Israel). When other concerns were raised that were completely inappropriate he withdrew his support, criticised Gregson and publicly backed the GMB. The timeline of events is a matter of public record. You didn't answer the question and give me YOUR opinion by the way, do you think that the statements he made about Muslims (there are others by the way) were appropriate, and if you replaced the word "Muslims" with word "Jews" and that came out of the mouth of someone like Ken Loach would you or would you not be up in arms? No waffle just answer the question.......... You say disagreeing with the IHRA definition our survey says Not quite as you told yet again is it I don't get the "Jews lie" bit, nothing in that particular snippet is antisemitic whether you agree with it or not. I see you dodged my question yet again........
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 16, 2021 14:46:35 GMT
You say disagreeing with the IHRA definition our survey says Not quite as you told yet again is it I don't get the "Jews lie" bit, nothing in that particular snippet is antisemitic whether you agree with it or not. I see you dodged my question yet again........ Your wasting your time Some people are completely unable to tell the difference between anti semitism and anti Zionism Which of course leaves people to become unknown to them lackeys of the Israeli government machine
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 16, 2021 14:57:08 GMT
I don't get the "Jews lie" bit, nothing in that particular snippet is antisemitic whether you agree with it or not. I see you dodged my question yet again........ Your wasting your time Some people are completely unable to tell the difference between anti semitism and anti Zionism Which of course leaves people to become unknown to them lackeys of the Israeli government machine We don't agree on much mate but right with you here. Well said.
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 16, 2021 15:03:44 GMT
Your wasting your time Some people are completely unable to tell the difference between anti semitism and anti Zionism Which of course leaves people to become unknown to them lackeys of the Israeli government machine We don't agree on much mate but right with you here. Well said. There’s hope for you yet 😁
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 16, 2021 16:20:34 GMT
You say disagreeing with the IHRA definition our survey says Not quite as you told yet again is it I don't get the "Jews lie" bit, nothing in that particular snippet is antisemitic whether you agree with it or not. I see you dodged my question yet again........ It's literally there in black and white Gregson accuses two Jewish labour members who supported the adoption of the IHRA definition of antisemitism of branding EVERYONE who doesn't agree with them on Israel as antisemitism.....
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 16, 2021 16:23:33 GMT
I don't get the "Jews lie" bit, nothing in that particular snippet is antisemitic whether you agree with it or not. I see you dodged my question yet again........ Your wasting your time Some people are completely unable to tell the difference between anti semitism and anti Zionism Which of course leaves people to become unknown to them lackeys of the Israeli government machine So is holocaust denial anti zionism now that's quite some take there waga.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 16, 2021 16:24:12 GMT
I don't get the "Jews lie" bit, nothing in that particular snippet is antisemitic whether you agree with it or not. I see you dodged my question yet again........ It's literally there in black and white Gregson accuses two Jewish labour members who supported the adoption of the IHRA definition of antisemitism of branding EVERYONE who doesn't agree with them on Israel as antisemitism..... Do you want to highlight the specific bit that is anti-semitic that would help maybe? Then you could answer my question maybe as well........
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 16, 2021 16:26:18 GMT
Your wasting your time Some people are completely unable to tell the difference between anti semitism and anti Zionism Which of course leaves people to become unknown to them lackeys of the Israeli government machine So is holocaust denial anti zionism now that's quite some take there waga. Why would holocaust denial be anti-Zionism? Holocaust denial is just batshit crazy and wrong, there's not much else to be said about it........
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 16, 2021 16:44:31 GMT
It's literally there in black and white Gregson accuses two Jewish labour members who supported the adoption of the IHRA definition of antisemitism of branding EVERYONE who doesn't agree with them on Israel as antisemitism..... Do you want to highlight the specific bit that is anti-semitic that would help maybe? Then you could answer my question maybe as well........ This playing dumb is getting boring read the IHRA definition for yourself and apply even Jezza managed to join tbe dots and kick him out.
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 16, 2021 17:07:20 GMT
Your wasting your time Some people are completely unable to tell the difference between anti semitism and anti Zionism Which of course leaves people to become unknown to them lackeys of the Israeli government machine So is holocaust denial anti zionism now that's quite some take there waga. I haven’t mentioned Holocaust denial That to me would be anti Semitic There is no doubt it happened Do you agree though To criticise the state of Israel’s treatment of Arabs and its continued land theft And breaking of international law is not anti Semitic
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 16, 2021 17:39:36 GMT
Do you want to highlight the specific bit that is anti-semitic that would help maybe? Then you could answer my question maybe as well........ This playing dumb is getting boring read the IHRA definition for yourself and apply even Jezza managed to join tbe dots and kick him out. I’m doing nothing of the sort, I’m asking you for the specific sentence that’s antisemitic it’s not difficult. I’ve also asked you a direct question about Trevor Phillip’s anti-Muslim rhetoric on 3 occasions now and still nothing…….
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 17, 2021 15:15:18 GMT
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 17, 2021 17:09:22 GMT
So is holocaust denial anti zionism now that's quite some take there waga. I haven’t mentioned Holocaust denial That to me would be anti Semitic There is no doubt it happened Do you agree though To criticise the state of Israel’s treatment of Arabs and its continued land theft And breaking of international law is not anti Semitic You suddenly joined a thread where we were talking about Ken Loach saying in response to a question is a meeting at labour fringe discussing whether the holocaust happened "history is there for us all to discuss", where we were discussing Loach's defence of gregson a holocaust denier and his support for the group labour against the witchhunt who spend their time defending anti semites and holocaust deniers to state some people can't tell the difference between anti zionism and anti semitism which is quite a bizarre and insulting interjection you were aiming at me. As for your comments knock yourself out as long as your accept israels right to exist you are largely free to criticise them as much you want as I've said previously I do find it odd Israel takes up so much time for some people with what China and the Taliban are currently doing but each to their own.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 17, 2021 17:22:31 GMT
It's literally there in black and white Gregson accuses two Jewish labour members who supported the adoption of the IHRA definition of antisemitism of branding EVERYONE who doesn't agree with them on Israel as antisemitism..... Do you want to highlight the specific bit that is anti-semitic that would help maybe? Then you could answer my question maybe as well........ The first paragraph literally says two jewish members set themselves the task of preventing a corbyn led government from ever imposing sanctions on israel, look at the working definition that specifically mentions accusing jewish people of being more loyal to Israel or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide than to the interests of their own nations, its also getting pretty close to the conspiracy example but then you knew that already perhaps you can invent another imagined interview to try and justify your claims. And no I wont be answering your question based on a meme, please provide transcripts blah blah blah and even then I doubt I will bother replying why waste my time for you to dismiss as waffle anything inconvenient.
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