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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 15, 2021 21:23:47 GMT
I don't think Labour have become irrelevant to people - they will still be at least the second most-voted party at the next election - although there is no denying they are not in good shape at the moment. They will be second, as you say, irrelevant but se indeed. Tired and stale. A busted flush. Don't stand for anything and have no one of calibre. Will probably try to say they did very well.....the Labour political class are doing a great disservice by cementing second. So they can rely on your vote then?
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 15, 2021 21:25:28 GMT
The criticism of Ken Loach wasn’t that he personally was a Holocaust denier but that he condoned debate denying the Holocaust. His explanation in The Guardian article is a response to the interview in question. This is the transcript with comments added from Jewish writer and activist Anthony Lerman (socialist and "wrong type" of Jew according to the likes of followyoudown) who was present in the original meeting: In a frenetically conducted interview, during which Mr Loach was calm and clear in what he said, he was asked about ‘a discussion about the Holocaust [at a fringe meeting the day before]—did it happen or didn’t it . . .’ Mr Loach then interrupts: ‘. . . I don’t think it was a discussion about the Holocaust’ Coburn then interrupts: ‘Well, it was reported and it was [inaudible] on the fringe . . .’ Mr Loach interrupts again: [sceptically] ‘. . . well, reported—reported by whom?’ Coburn: ‘But would you say that was unacceptable?’ Mr Loach was correct. There was no ‘discussion’ about the Holocaust at the 25 September fringe meeting referred to. A speaker made an isolated remark taken by some to imply doubt that the Holocaust occurred. Afterwards, the panellist denied that he was implying any such thing. So Mr Loach is then hurried—Coburn looked under severe pressure to speed up the interview and there was much noise and activity in the media area where it was being conducted—into commenting about a fake discussion. But he will not be hurried. He calmly says: ‘I think history is for us all to discuss, wouldn’t you?’ He certainly does not say that it is acceptable to discuss whether the Holocaust did or did not happen. Rather he is widening his answer to emphasise the principle of freedom of speech and to return to what Coburn was asking him about in the first part of the interview: antisemitism in the Labour Party: ‘History is for us all to discuss . . .even . . . what all history is [is] our common heritage to discuss and analyse—the founding of the state of Israel, for example based on ethnic cleansing is there for us all to discuss; the role of Israel is there for us to discuss, so don’t try to subvert that by false stories of antisemitism.’ Unless I'm missing something it's a hurried interview in a loud environment and there's nothing in it? It's certainly not the "gotcha" that some are claiming..... You are not missing anything you have just made up or copied and pasted a made up account of the interview, its there below clear as day This is more likely the truth
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 15, 2021 21:32:06 GMT
The criticism of Ken Loach wasn’t that he personally was a Holocaust denier but that he condoned debate denying the Holocaust. Not only has he condoned debate he has a long record of supporting holocaust deniers, heavily involved with the Labour against the witchhunt group that has the biggest and vilest cranks (walker, greenstein, williamson etc)
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 15, 2021 21:34:36 GMT
His explanation in The Guardian article is a response to the interview in question. This is the transcript with comments added from Jewish writer and activist Anthony Lerman (socialist and "wrong type" of Jew according to the likes of followyoudown) who was present in the original meeting: In a frenetically conducted interview, during which Mr Loach was calm and clear in what he said, he was asked about ‘a discussion about the Holocaust [at a fringe meeting the day before]—did it happen or didn’t it . . .’ Mr Loach then interrupts: ‘. . . I don’t think it was a discussion about the Holocaust’ Coburn then interrupts: ‘Well, it was reported and it was [inaudible] on the fringe . . .’ Mr Loach interrupts again: [sceptically] ‘. . . well, reported—reported by whom?’ Coburn: ‘But would you say that was unacceptable?’ Mr Loach was correct. There was no ‘discussion’ about the Holocaust at the 25 September fringe meeting referred to. A speaker made an isolated remark taken by some to imply doubt that the Holocaust occurred. Afterwards, the panellist denied that he was implying any such thing. So Mr Loach is then hurried—Coburn looked under severe pressure to speed up the interview and there was much noise and activity in the media area where it was being conducted—into commenting about a fake discussion. But he will not be hurried. He calmly says: ‘I think history is for us all to discuss, wouldn’t you?’ He certainly does not say that it is acceptable to discuss whether the Holocaust did or did not happen. Rather he is widening his answer to emphasise the principle of freedom of speech and to return to what Coburn was asking him about in the first part of the interview: antisemitism in the Labour Party: ‘History is for us all to discuss . . .even . . . what all history is [is] our common heritage to discuss and analyse—the founding of the state of Israel, for example based on ethnic cleansing is there for us all to discuss; the role of Israel is there for us to discuss, so don’t try to subvert that by false stories of antisemitism.’ Unless I'm missing something it's a hurried interview in a loud environment and there's nothing in it? It's certainly not the "gotcha" that some are claiming..... You are not missing anything you have just made up or copied and pasted a made up account of the interview, its there below clear as day This is more likely the truth The clip is not the full clip, and I still have no idea what the big gotcha is. He literally says “history is for us all to discuss”. He explained straight after in his letter to the Guardian what happened , whether you believe that to be true or not is up to you but to stretch that out to “Holocaust denial” or “Holocaust appeasement” as I’ve seen it called several times is just crazy…….
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 15, 2021 21:50:17 GMT
You are not missing anything you have just made up or copied and pasted a made up account of the interview, its there below clear as day This is more likely the truth The clip is not the full clip, and I still have no idea what the big gotcha is. He literally says “history is for us all to discuss”. He explained straight after in his letter to the Guardian what happened , whether you believe that to be true or not is up to you but to stretch that out to “Holocaust denial” or “Holocaust appeasement” as I’ve seen it called several times is just crazy……. The clip is the whole discussion about this you surely cant be that disingenuous after he is asked if a fringe meeting about whether the holocaust happened or not is acceptable, he doesn't say No it isn't acceptable, he says history is there for us all to discuss, coburn is so amazed she asks him to say it again which he does and then follows up with comments about Israel. The guy who thought any mp attending an anti semitism demo should be kicked out of the party, proper anti racist him.....
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 15, 2021 21:53:23 GMT
The clip is not the full clip, and I still have no idea what the big gotcha is. He literally says “history is for us all to discuss”. He explained straight after in his letter to the Guardian what happened , whether you believe that to be true or not is up to you but to stretch that out to “Holocaust denial” or “Holocaust appeasement” as I’ve seen it called several times is just crazy……. The clip is the whole discussion about this you surely cant be that disingenuous after he is asked if a fringe meeting about whether the holocaust happened or not is acceptable, he doesn't say No it isn't acceptable, he says history is there for us all to discuss, coburn is so amazed she asks him to say it again which he does and then follows up with comments about Israel. The guy who thought any mp attending an anti semitism demo should be kicked out of the party, proper anti racist him..... He’s talked about the horrors of the Holocaust many times, and again I refer you to his response……
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 15, 2021 21:59:04 GMT
The clip is the whole discussion about this you surely cant be that disingenuous after he is asked if a fringe meeting about whether the holocaust happened or not is acceptable, he doesn't say No it isn't acceptable, he says history is there for us all to discuss, coburn is so amazed she asks him to say it again which he does and then follows up with comments about Israel. The guy who thought any mp attending an anti semitism demo should be kicked out of the party, proper anti racist him..... He’s talked about the horrors of the Holocaust many times, and again I refer you to his response…… His response is there for all to see he is asked about whether its right to hold a discussion on whetner the holocaust happened or not that is the easiest question to answer ever and he fails twice so the letter is meaningless. Here's you boy comparing the israeli ambassador to the uk to Joseph Goebbels I guess you wont be seeing any racism here either......
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 15, 2021 22:31:19 GMT
He’s talked about the horrors of the Holocaust many times, and again I refer you to his response…… His response is there for all to see he is asked about whether its right to hold a discussion on whetner the holocaust happened or not that is the easiest question to answer ever and he fails twice so the letter is meaningless. Here's you boy comparing the israeli ambassador to the uk to Joseph Goebbels I guess you wont be seeing any racism here either...... Certainly not language I’d use personally. Many people believe the state of Israel to be a racist endeavour, it’s why they argued against the IHRA definition which suppresses the right to argue that. “Goebbels propaganda” is a fairly well used phrase. As this is a Starmer thread what grounds has Trevor Phillips being brought back into the party, seems to be major inconsistency there?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 5:10:20 GMT
I think you are right Rip. [br They are debating " important" LabourParty/ the Left issues though.....perhaps not, who knows? ]I also think that the Left(?) and Labour , who seem to hate each other , have become irrelevant to ordinary people. Not much decisive to say, or to offer in terms of Leadership, on Immigration, education, Law and Order , the environment...etc....and who are the upcoming leaders who can relate to the vast majority of ordinary people......the Conservatives are no better, but they don't have to do a lot in the foreseeable to keep power. Never mind. It’s a debate on a message board John not the NEC conference…. It is indeed, a debate about Starmer, the Left and shit. Exemplifies the two factions within the " movement " very well.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 5:22:47 GMT
They will be second, as you say, irrelevant but se indeed. Tired and stale. A busted flush. Don't stand for anything and have no one of calibre. Will probably try to say they did very well.....the Labour political class are doing a great disservice by cementing second. So they can rely on your vote then? Labour and the " Left" have created a situation in which the only way in which we can hope to get any political change is by reform of the electoral system away from fptp. An extremely difficult thing to change , it is going to take an extremely different political climate to do so. It could probably only happen on the back of other policies....and of course the party in power won't want to change the system. The concept of " relying" on the electorate's vote is part of the problem......the professional politicians' love that......it's us or them.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 16, 2021 5:44:53 GMT
So they can rely on your vote then? Labour and the " Left" have created a situation in which the only way in which we can hope to get any political change is by reform of the electoral system away from fptp. An extremely difficult thing to change , it is going to take an extremely different political climate to do so. It could probably only happen on the back of other policies....and of course the party in power won't want to change the system. The concept of " relying" on the electorate's vote is part of the problem......the professional politicians' love that......it's us or them. Labour and the left haven't caused that situation though have they - the FPTP system has been in place for hundreds of years and is equally supported by the Conservstives and the right. In fact it could be argued there's more of a will for electoral reform on the left thanthe right, given the Greens, SNP and the Lib Dems are both in favour (I'm assuming it's still Lib Dem policy. It's also difficult to get away from the fact that the people overwhelmingly voted in favour of FTPT in 2011, although 10 years have passed now and I think that's an acceptable time to pass to have a second referendum.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 5:51:16 GMT
Labour and the " Left" have created a situation in which the only way in which we can hope to get any political change is by reform of the electoral system away from fptp. An extremely difficult thing to change , it is going to take an extremely different political climate to do so. It could probably only happen on the back of other policies....and of course the party in power won't want to change the system. The concept of " relying" on the electorate's vote is part of the problem......the professional politicians' love that......it's us or them. Labour and the left haven't caused that situation though have they - the FPTP system has been in place for hundreds of years and is equally supported by the Conservstives and the right. In fact it could be argued there's more of a will for electoral reform on the left thanthe right, given the Greens, SNP and the Lib Dems are both in favour (I'm assuming it's still Lib Dem policy. It's also difficult to get away from the fact that the people overwhelmingly voted in favour of FTPT in 2011, although 10 years have passed now and I think that's an acceptable time to pass to have a second referendum. No , but they are part of it , helped to perpetuate it , for perceived short term gain....Good for those politicians in jobs, who are satisfied with and only capable of griping from the side. But you are right Labour and the Left's current disconnect from ordinary peoole and irrelevancy is largely their own making. The Tories love it. FPTP would win a second referendum. It is going to take a politically significant event or situation to effect change. Of course Labour missed the boat/ opportunity with Brexit.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 16, 2021 6:42:49 GMT
Labour and the left haven't caused that situation though have they - the FPTP system has been in place for hundreds of years and is equally supported by the Conservstives and the right. In fact it could be argued there's more of a will for electoral reform on the left thanthe right, given the Greens, SNP and the Lib Dems are both in favour (I'm assuming it's still Lib Dem policy. It's also difficult to get away from the fact that the people overwhelmingly voted in favour of FTPT in 2011, although 10 years have passed now and I think that's an acceptable time to pass to have a second referendum. No , but they are part of it , helped to perpetuate it , for perceived short term gain....Good for those politicians in jobs, who are satisfied with and only capable of griping from the side. But you are right Labour and the Left's current disconnect from ordinary peoole and irrelevancy is largely their own making. The Tories love it. FPTP would win a second referendum. It is going to take politically to effect change. Of course Labour missed the boat/ opportunity with Brexit. Voting reform has nothing to do with Brexit. That is how the Lib Dems and Greens were in favour of remaining, but are at the forefront of the movement for voting reform.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 6:44:19 GMT
No , but they are part of it , helped to perpetuate it , for perceived short term gain....Good for those politicians in jobs, who are satisfied with and only capable of griping from the side. But you are right Labour and the Left's current disconnect from ordinary peoole and irrelevancy is largely their own making. The Tories love it. FPTP would win a second referendum. It is going to take politically to effect change. Of course Labour missed the boat/ opportunity with Brexit. Voting reform has nothing to do with Brexit. That is how the Lib Dems and Greens were in favour of remaining, but are at the forefront of the movement for voting reform. Brexit provided an opportunity for change. But you need a bit of vision to see that
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 16, 2021 6:47:48 GMT
Voting reform has nothing to do with Brexit. That is how the Lib Dems and Greens were in favour of remaining, but are at the forefront of the movement for voting reform. Brexit provided an opportunity for change. But you need a bit of vision to see that Brexit is a big change, yes. Lets hope the people who supported Brexit have that vision. But it still has nothing to do with voting reform.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 6:56:19 GMT
Brexit provided an opportunity for change. But you need a bit of vision to see that Brexit is a big change, yes. Lets hope the people who supported Brexit have that vision. But it still has nothing to do with voting reform. It is post Brexit that a party with a vision could have implemented reform. Labour hot it badly wrong....hence the thick supporters they now need rejecting them. It was the events ( unfortunately) of 1939- 44 that paved the way for the Beveridge report, health reform and the Welfare state.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 16, 2021 7:09:01 GMT
Brexit is a big change, yes. Lets hope the people who supported Brexit have that vision. But it still has nothing to do with voting reform. It is post Brexit that a party with a vision could have implemented reform. Labour hot it badly wrong....hence the thick supporters they now need rejecting them. It was the events ( unfortunately) of 1939- 44 that paved the way for the Beveridge report, health reform and the Welfare state. Post-COVID also provides a huge (arguably bigger) platform for change, meaning the next election is hugely important.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 7:10:24 GMT
It is post Brexit that a party with a vision could have implemented reform. Labour hot it badly wrong....hence the thick supporters they now need rejecting them. It was the events ( unfortunately) of 1939- 44 that paved the way for the Beveridge report, health reform and the Welfare state. Post-COVID also provides a huge (arguably bigger) platform for change, meaning the next election is hugely important. I don't think so, it's not directly political. Brexit was about democracy. Not certain there will be a precise or otherwise" post-covid" To effect any change we will have to wait until this generation of politicians disappear....from both main parties. Have Labour or the Left got any up and coming bright stars? Owen Jones?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 16, 2021 7:19:36 GMT
It’s a debate on a message board John not the NEC conference…. It is indeed, a debate about Starmer, the Left and shit. Exemplifies the two factions within the " movement " very well. If you say so John. If you say so……
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 16, 2021 7:23:43 GMT
Post-COVID also provides a huge (arguably bigger) platform for change, meaning the next election is hugely important. I don't think so, it's not directly political. Brexit was about democracy. Not certain there will be a precise or otherwise" post-covid" To effect any change we will have to wait until this generation of politicians disappear....from both main parties. Have Labour or the Left got any up and coming bright stars? Owen Jones? I'm not in the Labour Party to know who is a decent candidate. Who is big on the right - Old Holborn? Darren Grimes?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 16, 2021 7:29:06 GMT
I don't think so, it's not directly political. Brexit was about democracy. Not certain there will be a precise or otherwise" post-covid" To effect any change we will have to wait until this generation of politicians disappear....from both main parties. Have Labour or the Left got any up and coming bright stars? Owen Jones? I'm not in the Labour Party to know who is a decent candidate. Who is big on the right - Old Holborn? Darren Grimes? I hear the boy Farage is one to watch…….
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 7:31:06 GMT
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 16, 2021 7:34:10 GMT
I'm not in the Labour Party to know who is a decent candidate. Who is big on the right - Old Holborn? Darren Grimes? I hear the boy Farage is one to watch……. I've assumed he was included in the generation of politicians sniping from the sidelines that needs to be gone before we get decent leaders.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 7:34:30 GMT
I don't think so, it's not directly political. Brexit was about democracy. Not certain there will be a precise or otherwise" post-covid" To effect any change we will have to wait until this generation of politicians disappear....from both main parties. Have Labour or the Left got any up and coming bright stars? Owen Jones? I'm not in the Labour Party to know who is a decent candidate. Who is big on the right - Old Holborn? Darren Grimes? No idea about the right, but I think Boris's lot ( are they slightly left of Starmer) seem safe. I do reckon Grimes has more to offer than Owen, more personable and relatable to the working class.....but I don't think the right need him as a leader.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 16, 2021 7:36:10 GMT
I'm not in the Labour Party to know who is a decent candidate. Who is big on the right - Old Holborn? Darren Grimes? No idea about the right, but I think Boris's lot ( are they slightly left of Starmer) seem safe. I do reckon Grimes has more to offer than Owen, more personable and relatable to the working class.....but I don't think the right need him as a leader. What makes Boris' lot safer than the left's lot?
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 7:36:32 GMT
I'm not in the Labour Party to know who is a decent candidate. Who is big on the right - Old Holborn? Darren Grimes? I hear the boy Farage is one to watch……. He's made his way onto a Starmer/ Labour/ Left thread. Why's that?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 16, 2021 7:52:42 GMT
I hear the boy Farage is one to watch……. He's made his way onto a Starmer/ Labour/ Left thread. Why's that? I don’t know John, maybe because debates on an internet forum deviate off topic from time to time? I certainly wouldn’t read too much of it, although I now realise mentioning that great man had probably got you all excited……
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 16, 2021 7:53:25 GMT
Thanks John will read when I get the chance……
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 16, 2021 7:55:58 GMT
He's made his way onto a Starmer/ Labour/ Left thread. Why's that? I don’t know John, maybe because debates on an internet forum maybe deviate off topic? I certainly wouldn’t read too much of it, although I now realise mentioning that great man had probably got you all excited…… It's not about me ( your usual tactic) or Farage, best stick to discussing how shit Labour and the Left are....you don't need much help with that.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 16, 2021 9:26:19 GMT
So they can rely on your vote then? Labour and the " Left" have created a situation in which the only way in which we can hope to get any political change is by reform of the electoral system away from fptp. An extremely difficult thing to change , it is going to take an extremely different political climate to do so. It could probably only happen on the back of other policies....and of course the party in power won't want to change the system. The concept of " relying" on the electorate's vote is part of the problem......the professional politicians' love that......it's us or them. We had a few months experience of what PR could produce during the brexit negotiations I think I'll take my chances with FPTP......
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