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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 12, 2021 21:39:12 GMT
That was because there was little anti semitism in corbyn’s labour party The main stream Israeli lobby in this country Are very good at painting anti Zionism as Semitic Laughable even after the EHRC report people still want to claim this but lets turn it around how often do you hear people saying its only a little bit of anti black / muslim racism...... Just a simple point When saying the current state of Israel is a despotic vile disgusting abuser of human rights I’m not being anti Semitic
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 13, 2021 8:16:27 GMT
Really I see most people accepted there was racist abuse, the reports from bbc / guardian I think it was gave those numbers and most people also said regardless anyone who sent such a message should be pursued to the full extent of the law whereas all you have ever done is downplay and try and minimise anti semitism. Just a reminder JVL first comment on the car convoy travelling through london shouting racist abuse was to suggest the footage was fake. Two things. I have never said there wasn’t abuse - ever - I’d be daft to suggest otherwise and have personally witnessed it in my own community. Secondly - and do not misquote me again - I do not downplay antisemitism. it is totally and utterly abhorrent. But I absolutely do downplay the amount of CASES of antisemitism that people like you kept banging on about, simply because it was an undeniable fact. But people like yourself who act in bad faith like to twist these things, facts never seem important…… Bit odd to start with a straw man argument if you end by saying facts never seem important..... That last paragraph is funny on so many levels, you are the epitome of bad faith on this matter, here you are posting concern about jewish labour members yet during the corbyn years it was complete silence or fuck off and join the tories, imagine downplaying the racist abuse Dianne Abbott or Pritti Patel gets by saying its only a little bit of racism.... The only time you have criticised the Labour party over its handling of antisemitism was once the fairytale report leaked blaming everyone not associated with Corbyn. If anti semitism is so rare in the Labour party how can so many mp's who represent 0.000001% of the total membership have been suspended, kicked out or have had to apologise ? The far left is full of virulent antisemitism it's in their DNA and these are the people you voted in and gave the keys too.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 13, 2021 8:21:23 GMT
Laughable even after the EHRC report people still want to claim this but lets turn it around how often do you hear people saying its only a little bit of anti black / muslim racism...... Just a simple point When saying the current state of Israel is a despotic vile disgusting abuser of human rights I’m not being anti Semitic Well that depends on what you mean by state as that can be taken to mean the whole nation so I'd suggest government or administration might be more what you mean, thats great to know your opinion now do Hamas, Hezbollah, China, Russia, the Taliban and all those worse regimes or are you one of those sorts who obsess about Israel ?
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 13, 2021 8:59:25 GMT
Two things. I have never said there wasn’t abuse - ever - I’d be daft to suggest otherwise and have personally witnessed it in my own community. Secondly - and do not misquote me again - I do not downplay antisemitism. it is totally and utterly abhorrent. But I absolutely do downplay the amount of CASES of antisemitism that people like you kept banging on about, simply because it was an undeniable fact. But people like yourself who act in bad faith like to twist these things, facts never seem important…… Bit odd to start with a straw man argument if you end by saying facts never seem important..... That last paragraph is funny on so many levels, you are the epitome of bad faith on this matter, here you are posting concern about jewish labour members yet during the corbyn years it was complete silence or fuck off and join the tories, imagine downplaying the racist abuse Dianne Abbott or Pritti Patel gets by saying its only a little bit of racism.... The only time you have criticised the Labour party over its handling of antisemitism was once the fairytale report leaked blaming everyone not associated with Corbyn. If anti semitism is so rare in the Labour party how can so many mp's who represent 0.000001% of the total membership have been suspended, kicked out or have had to apologise ? The far left is full of virulent antisemitism it's in their DNA and these are the people you voted in and gave the keys too. Are you being deliberately thick now? I'm not downplaying racism of any kind. I'm downplaying the numbers reported by people like you who have no interest in facts, and by the media happy to peddle the narrative that it was far more than a tiny minority of cases in terms of percentage of the membership. A perfect example is Luciana Berger, "look at how she was hounded out of the party by Corbynites" they cried. The antisemitic abuse she received was horrific and resulted in 6 people being prosecuted, one was a Labour member who quit before he could be punished, 3 were know to be affiliated to right wing organisations and went to prison. Oh and by the way this happened before Corbyn was even leader despite several interviews and articles failing to acknowledge that and dress it up as abuse by "Corbynites" Racism is abhorrent but facts are important. And I will not take lectures off a man who has never uttered a single criticism of Boris Johnson despite his documented racist dog whistles throughout the years. If you're such an anti-racist lets hear you condemn him for once? Your as transparent as they come......
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 13, 2021 9:03:15 GMT
Just a simple point When saying the current state of Israel is a despotic vile disgusting abuser of human rights I’m not being anti Semitic Well that depends on what you mean by state as that can be taken to mean the whole nation so I'd suggest government or administration might be more what you mean, thats great to know your opinion now do Hamas, Hezbollah, China, Russia, the Taliban and all those worse regimes or are you one of those sorts who obsess about Israel ? Well of course he means government and administration, but despite your attempts to redefine what antisemitism means there is absolutely nothing wrong with what wagastokie said. And the rest is just your favourite word, a "strawman" argument.........
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Post by wagsastokie on Aug 13, 2021 10:51:43 GMT
Just a simple point When saying the current state of Israel is a despotic vile disgusting abuser of human rights I’m not being anti Semitic Well that depends on what you mean by state as that can be taken to mean the whole nation so I'd suggest government or administration might be more what you mean, thats great to know your opinion now do Hamas, Hezbollah, China, Russia, the Taliban and all those worse regimes or are you one of those sorts who obsess about Israel ? I am more than happy to condemn the above organisations and countries With a particular mention to the taliban and China As for being obsessed by Israel I unlike some on this board will not turn a blind eye to reprehensible behaviour by any country and will point it out regardless of popularity What’s your opinion on China and it’s treatment of its Muslim minority
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 14, 2021 10:40:39 GMT
Well that depends on what you mean by state as that can be taken to mean the whole nation so I'd suggest government or administration might be more what you mean, thats great to know your opinion now do Hamas, Hezbollah, China, Russia, the Taliban and all those worse regimes or are you one of those sorts who obsess about Israel ? I am more than happy to condemn the above organisations and countries With a particular mention to the taliban and China As for being obsessed by Israel I unlike some on this board will not turn a blind eye to reprehensible behaviour by any country and will point it out regardless of popularity What’s your opinion on China and it’s treatment of its Muslim minority The Chinese government is clearly undertaking a genicide of the muslim minority, they maybe doing it less overtly and more slowly than the nazis but the rumoured forced sterilisations makes it pretty clear what the aim is but the world looks the other way because of all the cheap tat they produce and sell.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 14, 2021 10:42:21 GMT
Well that depends on what you mean by state as that can be taken to mean the whole nation so I'd suggest government or administration might be more what you mean, thats great to know your opinion now do Hamas, Hezbollah, China, Russia, the Taliban and all those worse regimes or are you one of those sorts who obsess about Israel ? Well of course he means government and administration, but despite your attempts to redefine what antisemitism means there is absolutely nothing wrong with what wagastokie said. And the rest is just your favourite word, a "strawman" argument......... You clearly dont understand the meaning of a strawman argument which probably explains why you deploy them so often.
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 14, 2021 11:08:13 GMT
Bit odd to start with a straw man argument if you end by saying facts never seem important..... That last paragraph is funny on so many levels, you are the epitome of bad faith on this matter, here you are posting concern about jewish labour members yet during the corbyn years it was complete silence or fuck off and join the tories, imagine downplaying the racist abuse Dianne Abbott or Pritti Patel gets by saying its only a little bit of racism.... The only time you have criticised the Labour party over its handling of antisemitism was once the fairytale report leaked blaming everyone not associated with Corbyn. If anti semitism is so rare in the Labour party how can so many mp's who represent 0.000001% of the total membership have been suspended, kicked out or have had to apologise ? The far left is full of virulent antisemitism it's in their DNA and these are the people you voted in and gave the keys too. Are you being deliberately thick now? I'm not downplaying racism of any kind. I'm downplaying the numbers reported by people like you who have no interest in facts, and by the media happy to peddle the narrative that it was far more than a tiny minority of cases in terms of percentage of the membership. A perfect example is Luciana Berger, "look at how she was hounded out of the party by Corbynites" they cried. The antisemitic abuse she received was horrific and resulted in 6 people being prosecuted, one was a Labour member who quit before he could be punished, 3 were know to be affiliated to right wing organisations and went to prison. Oh and by the way this happened before Corbyn was even leader despite several interviews and articles failing to acknowledge that and dress it up as abuse by "Corbynites" Racism is abhorrent but facts are important. And I will not take lectures off a man who has never uttered a single criticism of Boris Johnson despite his documented racist dog whistles throughout the years. If you're such an anti-racist lets hear you condemn him for once? Your as transparent as they come...... I am not downplaying it he says whilst downplaying it, I have not to the best of my recollection mentioned numbers I have highlighted specific cases, many raised by jewish people and I don't recall you or sheiky ever once saying about a single one thats terrible that person should be kicked out, almost always without fail the response has been its a plot, its a smear, its an exgarration, its because they are against Corbyn. Its interesting you mention Berger bit late to recognise the abuse as horrific, she received no support from the party management, was accused of lying about needing police protection or it being a photo stunt and generally told to fuck off and join the Tories, all the while her local comrades showed such compassion by trying to deselect her, the party also received a death threat they choose not to inform her off and this was all under corbyn so it really beggars belief you are trying to rewrite history. The thing is the far left can draw a straight line from boris's letterbox comments to a rise in muslim hate incidents yet the massive rise in antisemitism under Jezza is just a coincidence. As for Boris again you are just making stuff up I have discussed this with sheiky try googling burqa and you'll see it there but if you want to talk about dog whistles what would you call suggesting israel was behind a terror attack in egypt based on no evidence, how about holding a talk with a holocaust survivor who just happens to compare israel to the nazis (what are the chances Jezza picked this survivor), then going around using security / police to remove any jewish people there who surprisingly didn't agree with this view (he must have left his yellow badges at home) or how about being mates with every rancid antisemite going, so yeah you are definitely anti-racist just a bit more anti some forms of racism hey. Enjoy the match.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 14, 2021 12:18:17 GMT
Are you being deliberately thick now? I'm not downplaying racism of any kind. I'm downplaying the numbers reported by people like you who have no interest in facts, and by the media happy to peddle the narrative that it was far more than a tiny minority of cases in terms of percentage of the membership. A perfect example is Luciana Berger, "look at how she was hounded out of the party by Corbynites" they cried. The antisemitic abuse she received was horrific and resulted in 6 people being prosecuted, one was a Labour member who quit before he could be punished, 3 were know to be affiliated to right wing organisations and went to prison. Oh and by the way this happened before Corbyn was even leader despite several interviews and articles failing to acknowledge that and dress it up as abuse by "Corbynites" Racism is abhorrent but facts are important. And I will not take lectures off a man who has never uttered a single criticism of Boris Johnson despite his documented racist dog whistles throughout the years. If you're such an anti-racist lets hear you condemn him for once? Your as transparent as they come...... I am not downplaying it he says whilst downplaying it, I have not to the best of my recollection mentioned numbers I have highlighted specific cases, many raised by jewish people and I don't recall you or sheiky ever once saying about a single one thats terrible that person should be kicked out, almost always without fail the response has been its a plot, its a smear, its an exgarration, its because they are against Corbyn. Its interesting you mention Berger bit late to recognise the abuse as horrific, she received no support from the party management, was accused of lying about needing police protection or it being a photo stunt and generally told to fuck off and join the Tories, all the while her local comrades showed such compassion by trying to deselect her, the party also received a death threat they choose not to inform her off and this was all under corbyn so it really beggars belief you are trying to rewrite history. The thing is the far left can draw a straight line from boris's letterbox comments to a rise in muslim hate incidents yet the massive rise in antisemitism under Jezza is just a coincidence. As for Boris again you are just making stuff up I have discussed this with sheiky try googling burqa and you'll see it there but if you want to talk about dog whistles what would you call suggesting israel was behind a terror attack in egypt based on no evidence, how about holding a talk with a holocaust survivor who just happens to compare israel to the nazis (what are the chances Jezza picked this survivor), then going around using security / police to remove any jewish people there who surprisingly didn't agree with this view (he must have left his yellow badges at home) or how about being mates with every rancid antisemite going, so yeah you are definitely anti-racist just a bit more anti some forms of racism hey. Enjoy the match. A lot of that is just waffle fella……
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 15, 2021 9:32:52 GMT
I am not downplaying it he says whilst downplaying it, I have not to the best of my recollection mentioned numbers I have highlighted specific cases, many raised by jewish people and I don't recall you or sheiky ever once saying about a single one thats terrible that person should be kicked out, almost always without fail the response has been its a plot, its a smear, its an exgarration, its because they are against Corbyn. Its interesting you mention Berger bit late to recognise the abuse as horrific, she received no support from the party management, was accused of lying about needing police protection or it being a photo stunt and generally told to fuck off and join the Tories, all the while her local comrades showed such compassion by trying to deselect her, the party also received a death threat they choose not to inform her off and this was all under corbyn so it really beggars belief you are trying to rewrite history. The thing is the far left can draw a straight line from boris's letterbox comments to a rise in muslim hate incidents yet the massive rise in antisemitism under Jezza is just a coincidence. As for Boris again you are just making stuff up I have discussed this with sheiky try googling burqa and you'll see it there but if you want to talk about dog whistles what would you call suggesting israel was behind a terror attack in egypt based on no evidence, how about holding a talk with a holocaust survivor who just happens to compare israel to the nazis (what are the chances Jezza picked this survivor), then going around using security / police to remove any jewish people there who surprisingly didn't agree with this view (he must have left his yellow badges at home) or how about being mates with every rancid antisemite going, so yeah you are definitely anti-racist just a bit more anti some forms of racism hey. Enjoy the match. A lot of that is just waffle fella…… Surprised you can spare the time would have thought you should be posting your outrage at another antisemite getting kicked from Labour, just a wild guess you wont be anti ken loach's racism.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 15, 2021 10:19:23 GMT
A lot of that is just waffle fella…… Surprised you can spare the time would have thought you should be posting your outrage at another antisemite getting kicked from Labour, just a wild guess you wont be anti ken loach's racism. What racism? Happy for you to post and no doubt it will be the "history is there for us all to discuss" comment on the BBC or the Predition play that was cancelled, the usual stuff.............
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 15, 2021 10:38:02 GMT
Surprised you can spare the time would have thought you should be posting your outrage at another antisemite getting kicked from Labour, just a wild guess you wont be anti ken loach's racism. What racism? Happy for you to post and no doubt it will be the "history is there for us all to discuss" comment on the BBC or the Predition play that was cancelled, the usual stuff............. As I thought just not anti this kind of racism
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 15, 2021 10:43:34 GMT
What racism? Happy for you to post and no doubt it will be the "history is there for us all to discuss" comment on the BBC or the Predition play that was cancelled, the usual stuff............. As I thought just not anti this kind of racism I'd like you to highlight the specific antisemitic points, not just forward tweets from random people despite you constantly calling out Hudson for doing the same thing. Just highlight them, and then tell me in your own words.........
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 15, 2021 10:54:22 GMT
As I thought just not anti this kind of racism I'd like you to highlight the specific antisemitic points, not just forward tweets from random people despite you constantly calling out Hudson for doing the same thing. Just highlight them, and then tell me in your own words......... Sure can you find the quote where Ken says rising islamaphobia is understandable because of the actions of muslim governments or muslim terror attacks I am guessing he has never said this because you know its clearly racist. I am also guessing you thought his comments on history being open to question when asked why a labour fringe meeting hosted a holocaust denier was because he thinks the holocaust was much worse than it was, don't bother linking the oh shit I revealed my true colours article I better write something for the guardian.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 15, 2021 11:03:10 GMT
I'd like you to highlight the specific antisemitic points, not just forward tweets from random people despite you constantly calling out Hudson for doing the same thing. Just highlight them, and then tell me in your own words......... Sure can you find the quote where Ken says rising islamaphobia is understandable because of the actions of muslim governments or muslim terror attacks I am guessing he has never said this because you know its clearly racist. I am also guessing you thought his comments on history being open to question when asked why a labour fringe meeting hosted a holocaust denier was because he thinks the holocaust was much worse than it was, don't bother linking the oh shit I revealed my true colours article I better write something for the guardian. Your problem is you get very emotive and start waffling without providing the actual hard evidence, just give me the statements in their full context that's all I'm asking. You've found tweets from randoms so I'm sure you can provide proper footage or transcripts to back up your argument. Facts matter..........
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 15, 2021 11:17:08 GMT
Sure can you find the quote where Ken says rising islamaphobia is understandable because of the actions of muslim governments or muslim terror attacks I am guessing he has never said this because you know its clearly racist. I am also guessing you thought his comments on history being open to question when asked why a labour fringe meeting hosted a holocaust denier was because he thinks the holocaust was much worse than it was, don't bother linking the oh shit I revealed my true colours article I better write something for the guardian. Your problem is you get very emotive and start waffling without providing the actual hard evidence, just give me the statements in their full context that's all I'm asking. You've found tweets from randoms so I'm sure you can provide proper footage or transcripts to back up your argument. Facts matter.......... Google it yourself not wasting time providing evidence for you to just downplay interesting you think there is any context to justify those comments but you are so far down the rabbit hole on this its not surprising.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 15, 2021 11:24:35 GMT
Your problem is you get very emotive and start waffling without providing the actual hard evidence, just give me the statements in their full context that's all I'm asking. You've found tweets from randoms so I'm sure you can provide proper footage or transcripts to back up your argument. Facts matter.......... Google it yourself not wasting time providing evidence for you to just downplay interesting you think there is any context to justify those comments but you are so far down the rabbit hole on this its not surprising. I've Googled it many times. This is how it works though, throw accusations without providing hard evidence and then talk about people being down rabbit holes, it's just word salad. Put up or shut up, I'm happy to debate whatever and I'm certainly not saying Loach has never said or done anything controversial - I'm sure if we're honest we all have - but I've seen 3/4 accusations about him being antisemitic that are quite frankly nonsense.......
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Post by followyoudown on Aug 15, 2021 12:44:35 GMT
Google it yourself not wasting time providing evidence for you to just downplay interesting you think there is any context to justify those comments but you are so far down the rabbit hole on this its not surprising. I've Googled it many times. This is how it works though, throw accusations without providing hard evidence and then talk about people being down rabbit holes, it's just word salad. Put up or shut up, I'm happy to debate whatever and I'm certainly not saying Loach has never said or done anything controversial - I'm sure if we're honest we all have - but I've seen 3/4 accusations about him being antisemitic that are quite frankly nonsense....... It's not controversial it's antisemitic racism and he only ever seems to be controversial about Jewish people weird that. You started off with there being nothing racist there, then you talk about context now you appear to be trying to claim he didn't say these things you seem to be covering all your bases, no point engaging with you.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Aug 15, 2021 12:52:39 GMT
I've Googled it many times. This is how it works though, throw accusations without providing hard evidence and then talk about people being down rabbit holes, it's just word salad. Put up or shut up, I'm happy to debate whatever and I'm certainly not saying Loach has never said or done anything controversial - I'm sure if we're honest we all have - but I've seen 3/4 accusations about him being antisemitic that are quite frankly nonsense....... It's not controversial it's antisemitic racism and he only ever seems to be controversial about Jewish people weird that. You started off with there being nothing racist there, then you talk about context now you appear to be trying to claim he didn't say these things you seem to be covering all your bases, no point engaging with you. Best add prestwich to that ever-lengthening list of posters you've blocked because they disagree with you
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 15, 2021 12:57:36 GMT
I've Googled it many times. This is how it works though, throw accusations without providing hard evidence and then talk about people being down rabbit holes, it's just word salad. Put up or shut up, I'm happy to debate whatever and I'm certainly not saying Loach has never said or done anything controversial - I'm sure if we're honest we all have - but I've seen 3/4 accusations about him being antisemitic that are quite frankly nonsense....... It's not controversial it's antisemitic racism and he only ever seems to be controversial about Jewish people weird that. You started off with there being nothing racist there, then you talk about context now you appear to be trying to claim he didn't say these things you seem to be covering all your bases, no point engaging with you. I'm not covering all bases, I'm asking you to provide hard evidence which I'm happy to respond to. You haven't done that you've sent a few tweets from random people who I don't know from Adam.......
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Post by Huddysleftfoot on Aug 15, 2021 13:53:40 GMT
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Post by partickpotter on Aug 15, 2021 14:54:20 GMT
The criticism of Ken Loach wasn’t that he personally was a Holocaust denier but that he condoned debate denying the Holocaust.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 15, 2021 15:50:26 GMT
The criticism of Ken Loach wasn’t that he personally was a Holocaust denier but that he condoned debate denying the Holocaust. His explanation in The Guardian article is a response to the interview in question. This is the transcript with comments added from Jewish writer and activist Anthony Lerman (socialist and "wrong type" of Jew according to the likes of followyoudown) who was present in the original meeting: In a frenetically conducted interview, during which Mr Loach was calm and clear in what he said, he was asked about ‘a discussion about the Holocaust [at a fringe meeting the day before]—did it happen or didn’t it . . .’ Mr Loach then interrupts: ‘. . . I don’t think it was a discussion about the Holocaust’ Coburn then interrupts: ‘Well, it was reported and it was [inaudible] on the fringe . . .’ Mr Loach interrupts again: [sceptically] ‘. . . well, reported—reported by whom?’ Coburn: ‘But would you say that was unacceptable?’ Mr Loach was correct. There was no ‘discussion’ about the Holocaust at the 25 September fringe meeting referred to. A speaker made an isolated remark taken by some to imply doubt that the Holocaust occurred. Afterwards, the panellist denied that he was implying any such thing. So Mr Loach is then hurried—Coburn looked under severe pressure to speed up the interview and there was much noise and activity in the media area where it was being conducted—into commenting about a fake discussion. But he will not be hurried. He calmly says: ‘I think history is for us all to discuss, wouldn’t you?’ He certainly does not say that it is acceptable to discuss whether the Holocaust did or did not happen. Rather he is widening his answer to emphasise the principle of freedom of speech and to return to what Coburn was asking him about in the first part of the interview: antisemitism in the Labour Party: ‘History is for us all to discuss . . .even . . . what all history is [is] our common heritage to discuss and analyse—the founding of the state of Israel, for example based on ethnic cleansing is there for us all to discuss; the role of Israel is there for us to discuss, so don’t try to subvert that by false stories of antisemitism.’ Unless I'm missing something it's a hurried interview in a loud environment and there's nothing in it? It's certainly not the "gotcha" that some are claiming.....
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2021 19:09:07 GMT
Are we doing the perennial, eternal, internal debate of the Left and Labour ( amongst other internal issues). Extremely important.....but of no real connection with the ordinary UK person to whom the left and Labour need to engage.
Have Labour or the Left got any up and coming stars who might actually pose a threat to the Conservatives in 2024( perhaps it's a bit too early to consider it)?
Anyway as long as those who are on the Left and think they represent ordinary people believe that they have the moral high ground, all is well.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 15, 2021 20:15:14 GMT
Are we doing the perennial, eternal, internal debate of the Left and Labour ( amongst other internal issues). Extremely important.....but of no real connection with the ordinary UK person to whom the left and Labour need to engage. Have Labour or the Left got any up and coming stars who might actually pose a threat to the Conservatives in 2024( perhaps it's a bit too early to consider it)? Anyway as long as those who are on the Left and think they represent ordinary people believe that they have the moral high ground, all is well. The contributers to the discussion can feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but I don't think they are both from the left or Labour. I think it is one person is a Conservative voter (or at least certainly not a Labour voter) debating with one person who believes some of the accusations of antisemitism were exaggerated (no idea if that person is a Labour voter or not). I think it's two sides having a debate, as far as I can see.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2021 20:22:54 GMT
Are we doing the perennial, eternal, internal debate of the Left and Labour ( amongst other internal issues). Extremely important.....but of no real connection with the ordinary UK person to whom the left and Labour need to engage. Have Labour or the Left got any up and coming stars who might actually pose a threat to the Conservatives in 2024( perhaps it's a bit too early to consider it)? Anyway as long as those who are on the Left and think they represent ordinary people believe that they have the moral high ground, all is well. The contributers to the discussion can feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but I don't think they are both from the left or Labour. I think it is one person is a Conservative voter (or at least certainly not a Labour voter) debating with one person who believes some of the accusations of antisemitism were exaggerated (no idea if that person is a Labour voter or not). I think it's two sides having a debate, as far as I can see. I think you are right Rip. [br They are debating " important" LabourParty/ the Left issues though.....perhaps not, who knows? ]I also think that the Left(?) and Labour , who seem to hate each other , have become irrelevant to ordinary people. Not much decisive to say, or to offer in terms of Leadership, on Immigration, education, Law and Order , the environment...etc....and who are the upcoming leaders who can relate to the vast majority of ordinary people......the Conservatives are no better, but they don't have to do a lot in the foreseeable to keep power. Never mind.
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Post by RipRoaringPotter on Aug 15, 2021 20:49:59 GMT
The contributers to the discussion can feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but I don't think they are both from the left or Labour. I think it is one person is a Conservative voter (or at least certainly not a Labour voter) debating with one person who believes some of the accusations of antisemitism were exaggerated (no idea if that person is a Labour voter or not). I think it's two sides having a debate, as far as I can see. I think you are right Rip. [br They are debating " important" LabourParty/ the Left issues though.....perhaps not, who knows? ]I also think that the Left(?) and Labour , who seem to hate each other , have become irrelevant to ordinary people. Not much decisive to say, or to offer in terms of Leadership, on Immigration, education, Law and Order , the environment...etc....and who are the upcoming leaders who can relate to the vast majority of ordinary people......the Conservatives are no better, but they don't have to do a lot in the foreseeable to keep power. Never mind. I don't think Labour have become irrelevant to people - they will still be at least the second most-voted party at the next election - although there is no denying they are not in good shape at the moment.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Aug 15, 2021 20:54:24 GMT
I think you are right Rip. [br They are debating " important" LabourParty/ the Left issues though.....perhaps not, who knows? ]I also think that the Left(?) and Labour , who seem to hate each other , have become irrelevant to ordinary people. Not much decisive to say, or to offer in terms of Leadership, on Immigration, education, Law and Order , the environment...etc....and who are the upcoming leaders who can relate to the vast majority of ordinary people......the Conservatives are no better, but they don't have to do a lot in the foreseeable to keep power. Never mind. I don't think Labour have become irrelevant to people - they will still be at least the second most-voted party at the next election - although there is no denying they are not in good shape at the moment. They will be second, as you say, irrelevant but se indeed. Tired and stale. A busted flush. Don't stand for anything and have no one of calibre. Will probably try to say they did very well.....the Labour political class are doing a great disservice by cementing second.
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Post by prestwichpotter on Aug 15, 2021 21:06:01 GMT
The contributers to the discussion can feel free to tell me I'm wrong, but I don't think they are both from the left or Labour. I think it is one person is a Conservative voter (or at least certainly not a Labour voter) debating with one person who believes some of the accusations of antisemitism were exaggerated (no idea if that person is a Labour voter or not). I think it's two sides having a debate, as far as I can see. I think you are right Rip. [br They are debating " important" LabourParty/ the Left issues though.....perhaps not, who knows? ]I also think that the Left(?) and Labour , who seem to hate each other , have become irrelevant to ordinary people. Not much decisive to say, or to offer in terms of Leadership, on Immigration, education, Law and Order , the environment...etc....and who are the upcoming leaders who can relate to the vast majority of ordinary people......the Conservatives are no better, but they don't have to do a lot in the foreseeable to keep power. Never mind. It’s a debate on a message board John not the NEC conference….
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