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Post by andystokey on Dec 8, 2023 17:18:16 GMT
That's why Sunak flies everywhere in a private plane đ
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Post by gawa on Dec 11, 2023 23:31:15 GMT
2024 labour = 2010 conservative
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Post by wannabee on Dec 12, 2023 3:23:44 GMT
2024 labour = 2010 conservative I'm sure you've read the original Times Article where Streeting basically said the definition of insanity is "doing the same things over and over and expecting a different outcome " Do you disagree? As the Tweeter, Prem Sikka, whom Jeremy elevated to the Lords, and you ,are both ardent supporters of Jeremy, what is it you think Jeremy would do differently in NHS, if anything.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 12, 2023 6:40:13 GMT
2024 labour = 2010 conservative Perhaps it would make sense for them to amalgamate?
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 12, 2023 8:46:13 GMT
2024 labour = 2010 conservative Perhaps it would make sense for them to amalgamate? Labcon has a certain ring to it
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Post by gawa on Dec 12, 2023 8:48:05 GMT
2024 labour = 2010 conservative Perhaps it would make sense for them to amalgamate? Don't have a time machine John or I'd consider it. We need Uncles Jezza to make his own party
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 12, 2023 8:50:22 GMT
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 12, 2023 9:01:14 GMT
2024 labour = 2010 conservative The tories are closer to ukip than labour is to 2010 tories I would say. But I would perhaps agree that Labour are close to the coalition government (without the austerity policy). Tories watered down by a nice sensible party led to lots of good, progressive policy (taken from the lib dems) plus the tory austerity policy.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 12, 2023 9:03:58 GMT
Perhaps it would make sense for them to amalgamate? Labcon has a certain ring to it Actually that's pretty brilliant Wag, Covers everything in current politics , particularly the " con" bit. Everyone's a winner.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 12, 2023 20:13:00 GMT
Come on! âBlood on his handsâ! Ridiculously over the top. Unless you are suggesting that Starmer has the power to end the Middle East conflict. He obviously doesnât. Why isnât our government held to the same standards as the opposition? After all, the government actually has the power to try and do something (stop selling weapons to Israel for example).
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Post by gawa on Dec 12, 2023 20:30:34 GMT
Come on! âBlood on his handsâ! Ridiculously over the top. Unless you are suggesting that Starmer has the power to end the Middle East conflict. He obviously doesnât. Why isnât our government held to the same standards as the opposition? After all, the government actually has the power to try and do something (stop selling weapons to Israel for example). I hold them just as accountable. Blood on his hands maybe a bit extreme which is fair. But he's not fought for change or put pressure on. He's sided with the tories. So the leader of the opposition is just as accountable as he has offered no opposition.
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Post by atillathehoneybee on Dec 12, 2023 22:55:00 GMT
Now that Sir Kier has outlined his detailed plans to stop the boats I may even consider voting Labour...
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Post by wannabee on Dec 12, 2023 23:48:06 GMT
Come on! âBlood on his handsâ! Ridiculously over the top. Unless you are suggesting that Starmer has the power to end the Middle East conflict. He obviously doesnât. Why isnât our government held to the same standards as the opposition? After all, the government actually has the power to try and do something (stop selling weapons to Israel for example). I hold them just as accountable. Blood on his hands maybe a bit extreme which is fair. But he's not fought for change or put pressure on. He's sided with the tories. So the leader of the opposition is just as accountable as he has offered no opposition. The Labour Party Establishment has always been Pro Israel except for a brief period when your mate was it's Leader Even going back to the Balfour Declaration the grassroots labour supporters many who lived in the East End of London had empathy with the displaced Jews who lived alongside them. That support grew when Moseley and his Mob came along. Atlee's Government colluded in the formation of Israel Wilson was a committed Zionist but grassroots labour began to change after the six day War Blair was extremely Pro Israel, a very useful allay in the Middle East Wars and even managed to make money out of it after leaving Office in deals in Gaza www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/sep/25/tony-blair-middle-east-dealsThe unpopularity of the Mid East Wars increased Grassroots Labour support for Palestinians and Jeremy Corbyn Starmer is just carrying on the Labour Establishment Tradition
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Post by gawa on Dec 12, 2023 23:55:50 GMT
Now that Sir Kier has outlined his detailed plans to stop the boats I may even consider voting Labour... What are his plans mate?
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Post by iancransonsknees on Dec 13, 2023 6:58:48 GMT
Now that Sir Kier has outlined his detailed plans to stop the boats I may even consider voting Labour... What are his plans mate? He's said he's going to sink them as soon as they hit deep water.
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Post by oggyoggy on Dec 13, 2023 7:27:57 GMT
Now that Sir Kier has outlined his detailed plans to stop the boats I may even consider voting Labour... He didnât. But I agree it is far better than the tory plan: Or were you being sarcastic to accuse Starmer of having no plan when actually you are just uninformed as to what it is because it doesnât make the front page of the Express and Mail. It isnât Starmerâs fault that his solution to a non-issue isnât big news. There are a thousand other bigger issues this country faces rather than worrying about whether or not we can deport 500 people a year to Rwanda (who get sent straight back by Rwanda if they wish but we still pay for them).
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Post by atillathehoneybee on Dec 13, 2023 10:05:42 GMT
Now that Sir Kier has outlined his detailed plans to stop the boats I may even consider voting Labour... He didnât. But I agree it is far better than the tory plan: Or were you being sarcastic to accuse Starmer of having no plan when actually you are just uninformed as to what it is because it doesnât make the front page of the Express and Mail. It isnât Starmerâs fault that his solution to a non-issue isnât big news. There are a thousand other bigger issues this country faces rather than worrying about whether or not we can deport 500 people a year to Rwanda (who get sent straight back by Rwanda if they wish but we still pay for them).Non Issue...Wow... He has said what he is going to do, but not actually said how he is going to do it. He could say he is going to give everyone a Million Pounds, but not actually have a plan how to execute. Labour are very quiet on policy announcements, as they know they are a shoe in to win regardless, but the wrong ideas or even rhetoric could see them fall in the polls, sadly for them, and indeed the country saying nowt is better than saying precisely what they plan.
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Post by atillathehoneybee on Dec 13, 2023 10:08:33 GMT
Now that Sir Kier has outlined his detailed plans to stop the boats I may even consider voting Labour... What are his plans mate? He is going to, err, implement, err, oh I don't know, but he definitely has plans... Along similar lines to all of his policies...
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Post by atillathehoneybee on Dec 13, 2023 11:48:52 GMT
Now that Sir Kier has outlined his detailed plans to stop the boats I may even consider voting Labour... He didnât. But I agree it is far better than the tory plan: Or were you being sarcastic to accuse Starmer of having no plan when actually you are just uninformed as to what it is because it doesnât make the front page of the Express and Mail. It isnât Starmerâs fault that his solution to a non-issue isnât big news. There are a thousand other bigger issues this country faces rather than worrying about whether or not we can deport 500 people a year to Rwanda (who get sent straight back by Rwanda if they wish but we still pay for them). And you say I'm uninformed. It's not about deporting 500 a year, it's about deterring 10's of thousands making the journey in the first place.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2023 11:55:24 GMT
He didnât. But I agree it is far better than the tory plan: Or were you being sarcastic to accuse Starmer of having no plan when actually you are just uninformed as to what it is because it doesnât make the front page of the Express and Mail. It isnât Starmerâs fault that his solution to a non-issue isnât big news. There are a thousand other bigger issues this country faces rather than worrying about whether or not we can deport 500 people a year to Rwanda (who get sent straight back by Rwanda if they wish but we still pay for them). And you say I'm uninformed. It's not about deporting 500 a year, it's about deterring 10's of thousands making the journey in the first place. If 70k a year are making it over and only 500 can be sent off, each person has a 1 in 140 chance of being sent to Rwanda that year. Rwanda (as long as it isnât in a war) is still probably better than where they come from. Some people could live their entire lives in a hotel before this policy gets to them. When you are fleeing war, why would that sound like a deterrent?
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Post by atillathehoneybee on Dec 13, 2023 12:03:47 GMT
And you say I'm uninformed. It's not about deporting 500 a year, it's about deterring 10's of thousands making the journey in the first place. If 70k a year are making it over and only 500 can be sent off, each person has a 1 in 140 chance of being sent to Rwanda that year. Rwanda (as long as it isnât in a war) is still probably better than where they come from. Some people could live their entire lives in a hotel before this policy gets to them. When you are fleeing war, why would that sound like a deterrent? Agreed to an extent, but any deterrent is better than no deterrent. Hopefully it will encourage them to stay on Mainland Europe. And we all know the numbers are massaged... France have more entering France then we do, but what the figures dont tell us is that france is just a staging post.
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Post by satoshi on Dec 13, 2023 12:04:21 GMT
Drakeford resigning should trigger a bush tucker trial?
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 13, 2023 12:10:28 GMT
And you say I'm uninformed. It's not about deporting 500 a year, it's about deterring 10's of thousands making the journey in the first place. If 70k a year are making it over and only 500 can be sent off, each person has a 1 in 140 chance of being sent to Rwanda that year. Rwanda (as long as it isnât in a war) is still probably better than where they come from. Some people could live their entire lives in a hotel before this policy gets to them. When you are fleeing war, why would that sound like a deterrent? It would be easier if they were all fleeing war and the British public would more than likely to be more sympathetic unfortunately a large amount are economic migrants If fleeing war then I agree a small chance of finishing off in Rwanda might not be a sufficient deterrent If your a economic migrant investing a shed load of cash you donât necessarily have only to potentially find yourself suddenly further away than where you started yes itâs a bloody big deterrent The one thing I donât really understand is why these people are risking life and limb for a shit welcome when they currently abide in a fully democratic country which has all the benefits of being a member of the European Union
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2023 12:12:00 GMT
If 70k a year are making it over and only 500 can be sent off, each person has a 1 in 140 chance of being sent to Rwanda that year. Rwanda (as long as it isnât in a war) is still probably better than where they come from. Some people could live their entire lives in a hotel before this policy gets to them. When you are fleeing war, why would that sound like a deterrent? Agreed to an extent, but any deterrent is better than no deterrent. Hopefully it will encourage them to stay on Mainland Europe. And we all know the numbers are massaged... France have more entering France then we do, but what the figures dont tell us is that france is just a staging post. France have plenty of migrants that stay there as well. This is the consequence for blowing up Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria etc. Destroy places that people live and they are going to look somewhere else. If we truly wanted to stop this type of migration, we would crack down on banks that enable money laundering. Theyâll never do that.
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Post by satoshi on Dec 13, 2023 12:19:36 GMT
Agreed to an extent, but any deterrent is better than no deterrent. Hopefully it will encourage them to stay on Mainland Europe. And we all know the numbers are massaged... France have more entering France then we do, but what the figures dont tell us is that france is just a staging post. France have plenty of migrants that stay there as well. This is the consequence for blowing up Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria etc. Destroy places that people live and they are going to look somewhere else. If we truly wanted to stop this type of migration, we would crack down on banks that enable money laundering. Theyâll never do that. It doesnât explain the influx of Albanians
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2023 12:34:20 GMT
France have plenty of migrants that stay there as well. This is the consequence for blowing up Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria etc. Destroy places that people live and they are going to look somewhere else. If we truly wanted to stop this type of migration, we would crack down on banks that enable money laundering. Theyâll never do that. It doesnât explain the influx of Albanians At which point, you could cost effectively hire more people to process claims then send them back rather than putting them in hotels. Target the banks that are supporting the human trafficking endeavor. If gangs canât launder their money, they wonât see the business as profitable.
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Post by wagsastokie on Dec 13, 2023 13:00:13 GMT
It doesnât explain the influx of Albanians At which point, you could cost effectively hire more people to process claims then send them back rather than putting them in hotels. Target the banks that are supporting the human trafficking endeavor. If gangs canât launder their money, they wonât see the business as profitable. They would just move onto crypto
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Post by satoshi on Dec 13, 2023 13:25:42 GMT
At which point, you could cost effectively hire more people to process claims then send them back rather than putting them in hotels. Target the banks that are supporting the human trafficking endeavor. If gangs canât launder their money, they wonât see the business as profitable. They would just move onto crypto If theyâve got any sense
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Dec 13, 2023 13:46:05 GMT
The outcome of the next election will be
A Labour government (most likely, but don't count your chickens, Labour can cock anything up)
Or
A coalition
Or
A Tory Government
I think it is important to realise that in reality this means that the result will largely be " carry on as we were"
Obviously there will be different emphasises, different issues to deal, different arguments but essentially things will carry on as they were. I believe that most people won't be satisfied. On the Oatcake the usual arguments will be repeated......The background issue seems to be " Labour doesn't really represent the Left.....the Left are correct morally, but won't get elected ".....it NEVER will under the current system unless something dramatic happens. " The Tories are corrupt, self- centered, incompetent and uncaring ( amongst other things)".....no one seems to be arguing against this, except some believe" at least it isn't Labour "
My point is , the main issue at the next election is Electoral Reform.....it won't be promoted as the main issue, because it is not in the interests of the establishment/ the status quo/ the political parties to do so.
All other discussion on policies/ the direction of the country/ the merits of the parties, the leaders is secondary.
How could electoral reform be achieved?
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Post by gawa on Dec 13, 2023 14:07:54 GMT
The outcome of the next election will be A Labour government (most likely, but don't count your chickens, Labour can cock anything up) Or A coalition Or A Tory Government I think it is important to realise that in reality this means that the result will largely be " carry on as we were" Obviously there will be different emphasises, different issues to deal, different arguments but essentially things will carry on as they were. I believe that most people won't be satisfied. On the Oatcake the usual arguments will be repeated......The background issue seems to be " Labour doesn't really represent the Left.....the Left are correct morally, but won't get elected ".....it NEVER will under the current system unless something dramatic happens. " The Tories are corrupt, self- centered, incompetent and uncaring ( amongst other things)".....no one seems to be arguing against this, except some believe" at least it isn't Labour " My point is , the main issue at the next election is Electoral Reform.....it won't be promoted as the main issue, because it is not in the interests of the establishment/ the status quo/ the political parties to do so. All other discussion on policies/ the direction of the country/ the merits of the parties, the leaders is secondary. How could electoral reform be achieved? Through option B on your list mate. I think any coalition means a party which would benefit from electoral reform would need to join a coalition and I imagine this would likely be one of their requirements. The question then is whether Torys/Labour would do a coalition with that requirement. Or how binding it is? As I swear the Lib dems didn't want to raise uni fees but then they went into coalition and got out voted. Unfortunately though I think the torys and labour, under their current leadership, would probably rather have a minority government with no electoral reform than a coalition majority with that as a requirement. Which if so then puts us in a position where nothing changes :/ That's may take (not sure if factually correct so if I'm wrong people can correct me). Also this whole "left morally right thing" is a load of bollocks too. I'm not left wing because I run around with a LGBT flag or volunteer at refugee camps or because I spend my time advocating for people with disabilities or because im recycler of the year with 10 bins (im shit at recycling). There's a massive misconception on what left wing voters want/believe and what people seem to think we believe. If you read the "Overview and Aspects" section of the Nordic model. That is a high level view of alot of stuff I believe in from a political ideology (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model)
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