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Post by stokeykez on Feb 26, 2020 18:18:06 GMT
If we go down ?
Given what a mess this club was in when he came in, would he be seen as a failure if we did get relegated ?
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Post by franklin66 on Feb 26, 2020 18:20:35 GMT
Yes.
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Post by lordherefordsknob on Feb 26, 2020 18:27:44 GMT
No
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Post by callas12 on Feb 26, 2020 18:28:30 GMT
I dont think he'd be seen as a failure but there would be huge disappointment from fans at the fact he literally came in & hauled us back from the brink when most hope had gone. & it'll be the renewed hope we all gained that will cause the most disappointment if we did fall into the bottom 3 come the last game.
He'd definitely be given time by the fans but then a good start next season would be a must.
I'm not trying to think about the summer being disappointing though, let's hope we stay out the relegation zone & that in itself will be a huge achievement in such a short space of time. & given a full pre season and chance to mold his own squad we can look forward to a productive 2020-21 season.
Surviving relegation or even finishing mid table would have been seen by many Stoke fans as a failure last August, & right now we'd take either of them options.
Pre season expectations & real time hope's as the seasons under way can be quite interesting to assess!
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Post by pottersrule on Feb 26, 2020 18:31:30 GMT
If we go down ? Given what a mess this club was in when he came in, would he be seen as a failure if we did get relegated ? His remit was to keep us up.If he fails to keep us up he has to be a failure surely.
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Post by Staffsoatcake on Feb 26, 2020 18:31:38 GMT
No, If we go down, it's down to Jones and his useless signings.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 18:32:57 GMT
Well he wouldn't be a success would he
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Post by PotterLog on Feb 26, 2020 18:35:29 GMT
No, he'd be carried shoulder-high down Sir Stan Way. Daft effing question.
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Post by stokie1947 on Feb 26, 2020 18:39:20 GMT
YES he has had plenty of time and still does to save us from relegation with even this squad of players
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Post by ursems2boots on Feb 26, 2020 18:41:03 GMT
Nope...We were on our hands and knees under Nathan Hallelujah praise the Lord...
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Post by Billy the kid on Feb 26, 2020 18:44:14 GMT
What a daft question, the very fact that it's all very much in our own hands if we stay up or not is a world away from when we parted company with the mad hatter.
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Post by chigstoke on Feb 26, 2020 19:19:29 GMT
You couldn't attribute it all to him
Jones made some utterly bizarre tactical decisions and, quite frankly, gash transfers out of MON's control.
What MON has done is bring much needed stability to the team, and some excellent results.
Will I be disappointed if we go down? Of course, but I'm not going to label MON a failure considering the hand he was dealt when he arrived. If he keeps us up he's done an absolutely incredible job, from bottom of the league to boot. I feel at least confident under his stewardship that we can beat the drop. I could have never said that under Mad Man Nath.
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Post by blackpoolred on Feb 26, 2020 19:27:33 GMT
If we go down ? Given what a mess this club was in when he came in, would he be seen as a failure if we did get relegated ? When he first came I think if we would have got relegated, but made a fight of it I would say not - given the position we were in. However, having been 7 points clear of the drop and in great form to slump to relegation would possibly seen as a failure. It depends though, if we get to 50pts and go down then we really could not have asked anything more from him. However, if we capitulate and don't win another game then he would probably go. This is Stoke though so even if he loses all of the last 12 games he will stay and Scholes will get a rise
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Post by gawa on Feb 26, 2020 19:35:02 GMT
To look at it from a different perspective:
Only twice in the last 10 seasons has a team in 21st had more than 36 points (huddersfield tally) at the end of game week 34. Of those:
2014/15 - Rotterham had 37 points and a 6 point gap on 22nd, 4 more than this season. 21st ended with 47,22nd ended with 41. 2012/13 - Ipswich had 39 points and a 4 point gap on 22nd, 2 more than this season. 21st ended with 55, 22nd ended with 54.
Now as the gap between 21st and 22nd is smaller this season and with the high points tally in contrast to other seasons. I imagine it is going to take 50+ points to survive.
So now...
O'Neil came in at game week 15 when stoke had 8 points. Presuming it will require 50+ points to survive this season based on the above.
Let's now look at the table from the perspective of there being 15 games left and the impact which a Nathan Jones return would have on other sides.
If the following sides were to experience 8 points from their 15 remaining games they would have been relegated in 2012/13:
8th Cardiff - 46 points (+17 relegation) 9th Swansea - 46 points +17 10th Sheff Wed - 44 points +16 11th Blackburn - 44 points +16 12th Derby - 43 points +15
If they were to have sacked their managers after game week 31 and the new manager came in and got them relegated. Would the predecessor be considered a failure?
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Post by spoton on Feb 26, 2020 19:58:19 GMT
If Lambert was then definitely yes how could he not be
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Post by GoBoks on Feb 26, 2020 20:01:08 GMT
If we go down ? Given what a mess this club was in when he came in, would he be seen as a failure if we did get relegated ? The question is not "Who's to blame?" (definately not MON) but rather would he be seen as a failure? We assume the target given to him by his employers is to keep us up - therefore, yes, he will have failed. HOWEVER ....... WE ARE NOT GOING DOWN!!!!
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Post by sheikhmomo on Feb 26, 2020 20:37:30 GMT
I don't think his Spring holiday in The Balkans then a possible Inter Railing trip round Europe in the Summer will play too well as we prepare for life against Fleetwood.
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Post by SamB_SCFC on Feb 26, 2020 20:43:54 GMT
Yes he'd be a failure, like Lambert was. The vast majority of the blame would be on Jones and the board, but ultimately he'll have failed to deliver on the job he was brought in to do.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 20:46:18 GMT
I'm not convinced. We were relegated already under Jones. If he got us within touching distance of survival, he'd have done a job. We'd be gutted, but the blame would not be at O Neill's door.
We'll stay up. I'm not a convinced as I was, but I think we'll have enough.
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Post by greenstokie on Feb 27, 2020 1:50:18 GMT
Given that expectations have been elevated considerably since the 8 pts from 15 games legacy, it will be very disappointing if we're relegated. Although, if we get to 50pts and are still relegated, he can't be seen as a failure as the points tally of 42 from 31 games would equate to 61 in a full season, which would be remarkable given the low base of confidence he inherited.
However, if we limp out over the next 9 games, questions will rightly be asked. I very much doubt we'll be relegated and even if the sides around us overachieve, I figure we will match them and keep a few places ahead.
I expect that by season end, he will be seen as nothing other than a roaring success and hopefully the start of a long term upward curve.
Keep the faith.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2020 1:56:29 GMT
Given that expectations have been elevated considerably since the 8 pts from 15 games legacy, it will be very disappointing if we're relegated. Although, if we get to 50pts and are still relegated, he can't be seen as a failure as the points tally of 42 from 31 games would equate to 61 in a full season, which would be remarkable given the low base of confidence he inherited. However, if we limp out over the next 9 games, questions will rightly be asked. I very much doubt we'll be relegated and even if the sides around us overachieve, I figure we will match them and keep a few places ahead. I expect that by season end, he will be seen as nothing other than a roaring success and hopefully the start of a long term upward curve. Keep the faith. Was it really 8 points from 15 games? Wow. Hard to believe we are actually out of the bottom 3 really and to achieve it as early as Boxing Day was quite the feat. Unless we have a major collapse next few games am very confident we'll be fine as not everyone will keep up these winning streaks. Seems that the teams at the bottom are the real form teams and some of the play off teams couldn't buy a win this week.
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Post by Mr_DaftBurger on Feb 27, 2020 2:48:15 GMT
Where he has got us to is a success! If we were to go down, from where he's got us to, would be a failure!
Saying that, with these players, anything could happen and I would not place all the blame on MON!
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 27, 2020 7:17:37 GMT
No.
It’d be ludicrous to even suggest it imo.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Feb 27, 2020 7:19:11 GMT
If Lambert was then definitely yes how could he not be There’s a massive difference in the two situations. Lambert came into one where we should have stayed up. MON has come into one where we were definitely down and it needed a miracle job.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 27, 2020 7:35:38 GMT
If we go down ? Given what a mess this club was in when he came in, would he be seen as a failure if we did get relegated ? His remit was to keep us up.If he fails to keep us up he has to be a failure surely. I think that's a bit too black and white really. It really depends on the way things work out. He inherited a right old mess and has done marvellously to even get us back in the mix. It's no mean feat to get the winning feeling, however tenuous, back into the nostrils of a squad that was rotting. This was a bunch of entitled, ear-cupping cowards before he arrived; now there's a lot more battle and heart. That's down to him. We're heavily dependent though on 2-3 players and injuries to one or more of them could still bring the whole house of cards down - I'm not sure I'd brand him personally a failure were that to happen. He hasn't got everything right but he's got the vast majority of things right - were that to change and his own tactical brainfarts be partly responsible for plunging us back down there then I think he'd deserve some culpability. I don't see that happening though. I'd also be staggered if we went down now. We're still a poor side and there's a lot of work to be done just to stand still next season, but we've now got enough about us to get the 3-4 wins we need.
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Post by The Toxic Avenger on Feb 27, 2020 7:36:40 GMT
If Lambert was then definitely yes how could he not be Because Lambert was very much a contributor to our demise and MON, at least so far, hasn't been remotely.
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Post by benjaminbiscuit on Feb 27, 2020 8:05:12 GMT
Nice to see you back from your rest Tony and the back stabbing dagger being sharpened probably needs a little respite after 4 managers , one DOF , one chief scout and one commercial manager in the last few months but best have it ready just in case in May .
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Post by rawli on Feb 27, 2020 8:09:58 GMT
He can't be blamed for losing McLean and Verlinden in the same game. That has forced Powell to be moved to the wing and has screwed the balance of the side.
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Post by Gods on Feb 27, 2020 8:21:16 GMT
If Lambert was then definitely yes how could he not be I don't think Rocky Lambert won any games at all from January to May except his first at home to Huddersfield Town and his last at Swansea when both teams were already relegated.
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Post by scfcno1fan on Feb 27, 2020 8:24:11 GMT
No win in the first 10 wasn’t it?
8 points from the first 15 games or something stupid like that.
Not a chance.
I can remember Bayern I think it was posted a stat that 90% of teams in our position when o Neil took over get relegated.
To be even in with a shout of staying up is a fantastic achievement.
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