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Post by werrington on Jun 11, 2021 6:03:26 GMT
All this plucking figures out of the air and the myth that we sell these quality players on the cheap when no one can give an example of one who has gone on to increase in value considerably or at all that we've let go. Collins has played the equivalent of 1 season, great prospect but all this 15 million is way too low etc is based on what? Because some other club paid way over the odds for another player once doesn't mean he is suddenly worth 20 million plus. Because Brentford sold one player for 30 million, has no relevance at all to the price of Collins. It's based on seeing him play week in week out.. Your rational that because he's only played 1 season he can't possibly be worth £15m is ludicrous. Potential is worth a lot . What if it’s a straight £15m or £12m with a 30% sell on clause? I don’t disagree re his value but I really don’t think people realise what a dire financial situation we are in and have to clear the deck as best we can
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Post by themistocles on Jun 11, 2021 6:07:11 GMT
It's based on seeing him play week in week out.. Your rational that because he's only played 1 season he can't possibly be worth £15m is ludicrous. Potential is worth a lot . What if it’s a straight £15m or £12m with a 30% sell on clause? I don’t disagree re his value but I really don’t think people realise what a dire financial situation we are in and have to clear the deck as best we can I don't believe we have to clear the deck as drastically as people think. It's an excuse for these shit decisions.
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Post by scfcno1fan on Jun 11, 2021 6:09:58 GMT
It's based on seeing him play week in week out.. Your rational that because he's only played 1 season he can't possibly be worth £15m is ludicrous. Potential is worth a lot . What if it’s a straight £15m or £12m with a 30% sell on clause? I don’t disagree re his value but I really don’t think people realise what a dire financial situation we are in and have to clear the deck as best we can That’s a fair point. Easily could be sold in 2-3 years for 20-30m (like Torwoski (sp)), if we’ve a 25% sell on clause gets us closer to 20m. Plus we are in the shit financially.
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Post by mowlee on Jun 11, 2021 6:14:45 GMT
Would 15 million even help us.. the only way it would if John has said the 15 million can go straight into the transfer kitty
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Post by werrington on Jun 11, 2021 6:28:56 GMT
What if it’s a straight £15m or £12m with a 30% sell on clause? I don’t disagree re his value but I really don’t think people realise what a dire financial situation we are in and have to clear the deck as best we can I don't believe we have to clear the deck as drastically as people think. It's an excuse for these shit decisions. You don’t understand paying players 30k per week with another year on their contract when there’s no more premiership money coming in and we've just just had a pandemic with no gate receipts for what will be 18 months? You don’t understand how FFP works despite it being pointed out on numerous occasions? Seriously you don’t believe the club and the financial state despite all that …really?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2021 6:49:17 GMT
All this plucking figures out of the air and the myth that we sell these quality players on the cheap when no one can give an example of one who has gone on to increase in value considerably or at all that we've let go. Collins has played the equivalent of 1 season, great prospect but all this 15 million is way too low etc is based on what? Because some other club paid way over the odds for another player once doesn't mean he is suddenly worth 20 million plus. Because Brentford sold one player for 30 million, has no relevance at all to the price of Collins. It's based on seeing him play week in week out.. Your rational that because he's only played 1 season he can't possibly be worth £15m is ludicrous. Potential is worth a lot . Like I said, plucking figures out of thin air.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 11, 2021 7:24:29 GMT
Love how Nixon frames the bid as "stunning", when it's an under-par bid for a sure thing. I wish we would've used our Prem cash on investments like Collins, that's for sure. Would sting if he went to a club like Burnley, but it's the natural order that they can plunder the Championship during their time in the sun.
Burnley is a club where defenders can shine too.
Suppose the sad reality is clubs in our position do have to sell the odd gem, particularly when there is a huge black hole in their finances.
As disappointing as it would be, £12m is probably the equivalent of a fair bit more this summer, post-Covid, for all but the big boys.
We were always going to struggle to get the really big money unless there was a bid from the top 6 who felt they couldn't miss out.
If it means we can do more than look at Andi Weimanns and Lyle Taylors, it may allow us to do a few things in the short-term and improve our shot at promotion overall. MON and Scholes will be aware of how bleak the situation is and when the trigger needs to be pulled
There's always a sizeable chance Nixon is wrong though.
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Post by J-Roar on Jun 11, 2021 7:31:32 GMT
Getting what we paid for Tom fucking Ince would be a travesty.
This bastard FFP noose is killing us.
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Post by theonlooker on Jun 11, 2021 7:34:40 GMT
If it means we can do more than look at Andi Weimanns and Lyle Taylors, it may allow us to do a few things in the short-term and improve our shot at promotion overall. MON and Scholes will be aware of how bleak the situation is and when the trigger needs to be pulled I think you are going to be disappointed. Total guesswork on my behalf i'll admit, but I wouldn't be surprised if we were selling Collins, replacing him with Forrester in the squad and using the vast majority of that 12M to balance the books over the next few years whilst giving us a tiny bit of wiggle room to bring in the likes of Weimann and Taylor on free transfers, and supplementing those with the best youngsters on loan that we can get. The fact we have tried to pull the three card trick over the COVID impairments should really ring some bells IMO.
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Post by FullerMagic on Jun 11, 2021 7:36:48 GMT
If it means we can do more than look at Andi Weimanns and Lyle Taylors, it may allow us to do a few things in the short-term and improve our shot at promotion overall. MON and Scholes will be aware of how bleak the situation is and when the trigger needs to be pulled I think you are going to be disappointed. Total guesswork on my behalf i'll admit, but I wouldn't be surprised if we were selling Collins, replacing him with Forrester in the squad and using the vast majority of that 12M to balance the books over the next few years whilst giving us a tiny bit of wiggle room to bring in the likes of Weimann and Taylor on free transfers, and supplementing those with the best youngsters on loan that we can get. The fact we have tried to pull the three card trick over the COVID impairments should really ring some bells IMO. Yeah - I'm not expecting anything dramatic at all. But it may be a case of selling Collins if we want any wiggle room at all.
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Post by theonlooker on Jun 11, 2021 7:40:22 GMT
I think you are going to be disappointed. Total guesswork on my behalf i'll admit, but I wouldn't be surprised if we were selling Collins, replacing him with Forrester in the squad and using the vast majority of that 12M to balance the books over the next few years whilst giving us a tiny bit of wiggle room to bring in the likes of Weimann and Taylor on free transfers, and supplementing those with the best youngsters on loan that we can get. The fact we have tried to pull the three card trick over the COVID impairments should really ring some bells IMO. Yeah - I'm not expecting anything dramatic at all. But it may be a case of selling Collins if we want any wiggle room at all. Yes I agree, looking at it very generally I just don't think that selling Collins will suddenly elevate us from the likes of Weimann and Taylor to something more expensive. We are now in the territory of an established Championship side income wise (6M+ a year?), with a huge wage bill that was compounded by the Rowett splurge, and we are in and around the FFP evaluation period. I'm not sure that the 12M will go that far in all honesty. Now if we were to sell Collins, Souttar AND Campbell all for similar amounts, then that might just give us some room IMO. We wouldn't want to do that though. Who knows though, i'm not an accountant.
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Post by themistocles on Jun 11, 2021 7:57:04 GMT
I don't believe we have to clear the deck as drastically as people think. It's an excuse for these shit decisions. You don’t understand paying players 30k per week with another year on their contract when there’s no more premiership money coming in and we've just just had a pandemic with no gate receipts for what will be 18 months? You don’t understand how FFP works despite it being pointed out on numerous occasions? Seriously you don’t believe the club and the financial state despite all that …really? There's not a single person on this forum who knows the full detail of our financial situation. Don't start pretending you do either
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Post by werrington on Jun 11, 2021 8:01:52 GMT
You don’t understand paying players 30k per week with another year on their contract when there’s no more premiership money coming in and we've just just had a pandemic with no gate receipts for what will be 18 months? You don’t understand how FFP works despite it being pointed out on numerous occasions? Seriously you don’t believe the club and the financial state despite all that …really? There's not a single person on this forum who knows the full detail of our financial situation. Don't start pretending you do either But you seem too ….Priceless Given the huge wages we have payed ( and still are ), the long contracts they are on, the pandemic, no turnstiles cash, no parachute payments and FFP how do you work out the club is flush with cash?
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Post by Billy the kid on Jun 11, 2021 8:06:58 GMT
You don’t understand paying players 30k per week with another year on their contract when there’s no more premiership money coming in and we've just just had a pandemic with no gate receipts for what will be 18 months? You don’t understand how FFP works despite it being pointed out on numerous occasions? Seriously you don’t believe the club and the financial state despite all that …really? There's not a single person on this forum who knows the full detail of our financial situation. Don't start pretending you do either Whilst I agree to a point with what you say, the noises coming out of the club, even the managers own mouth would suggest that from an FFP stand point we are either close to or over the the threshold, not being able to extend Powell's contract he said “It’s very difficult for us to do that at this minute in time because of the rules of FFP. We have players that are on contracts that are on contracts that are quite different to the players who have signed since I came to the club. “We have to be mindful in terms of that and setting the bar for wages that we’re prepared to pay and able to pay. At this minute in time we’re not in a position to be able to extend contracts. “We’ll look at the situation in the summer. Nick has a year to go and he obviously has had a very strong season. Those are the types of player you want to keep at the club. “At the moment, as we are readjusting financially how we are as a club, it’s more difficult to have those conversations.” The club recently posted an £87M loss, our transfer policy for the last year and a half all points towards the club being in a very tight position. Im not sure how much of an impact selling Collins for £12M will make, but I would think that it could be significant. Our outgoings to date this summer have hardly added much to the balance sheet, what are we at? Linsey (undisclosed- so possibly nothing) Wimmer (teared up his own contract), Ndye (who knows but no longer on the wage list) Clucas - not gone yet but we are literally giving him away.
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Post by mattythestokie on Jun 11, 2021 8:07:07 GMT
Love how Nixon frames the bid as "stunning", when it's an under-par bid for a sure thing. I wish we would've used our Prem cash on investments like Collins, that's for sure. Would sting if he went to a club like Burnley, but it's the natural order that they can plunder the Championship during their time in the sun. Burnley is a club where defenders can shine too. Suppose the sad reality is clubs in our position do have to sell the odd gem, particularly when there is a huge black hole in their finances. As disappointing as it would be, £12m is probably the equivalent of a fair bit more this summer, post-Covid, for all but the big boys. We were always going to struggle to get the really big money unless there was a bid from the top 6 who felt they couldn't miss out. If it means we can do more than look at Andi Weimanns and Lyle Taylors, it may allow us to do a few things in the short-term and improve our shot at promotion overall. MON and Scholes will be aware of how bleak the situation is and when the trigger needs to be pulled There's always a sizeable chance Nixon is wrong though. I would be quite happy to see him go Burnley. He’d have a real good chance of getting there first team very soon. Nothing pains me more than seeing someone like Begovic leave to go to Chelsea and then career takes a nose dive. Burnley would be an excellent stepping stone for him.
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Post by Fred Merger on Jun 11, 2021 8:10:10 GMT
Collins was always going to be sacrificed anyway. They banked on him going. It's just a case of getting the best price they can for him. They are hoping for a bit of a bidding war to push his price upto a bit more!
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Post by DC1863 on Jun 11, 2021 8:29:33 GMT
Sad but inevitable that we wont see Nathan in a Stoke top again, but the reality of FFP is upon us.
Here's hoping we get a decent sell on percentage for when he moves to a top club and we can reinvest some of the money to improve the squad a bit.
If we continue to shift the on-loan wasters and some more deadwood hopefully that, combined with the Collins fee, will be enough to make some clever acquisitions this summer 🤞.
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Post by yyy on Jun 11, 2021 8:47:57 GMT
£15m plus add ons in today's market all day long, personally I'd try to drag man utd into the equation or at least one other serious club, it gets both the club and Collins a better deal. Burnley especially, they've had our pants down in recent years.
£15m as long as it doesn't start a selling club habit is probably acceptable not just because of the size of the fee but the ability to strengthen also. If we got £15m i'd enquire about the defensive mid Campbell from Motherwell, a serious look at the French forward Thomas Henry playing in Belgium and Bannon from Sheff Wednesday, all three would be a good start to the window.
Selling Collins and signing washed up tripe is not acceptable, it does nothing to keep the likes of Campbell and Souttar wanting to stick around either. We're either trying to get promotion or are happy treading water, which is it SCFC?
Incoming money has to be spent on quality now, we might not see too much more of it.
If we want bums on seats we sign players capable of putting bums on seats, even more so if you're selling your best young prospects, a more injury free Fletcher with an eye for goal and to get the best from Campbell is the way to go, imo
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Post by boskampsflaps on Jun 11, 2021 8:50:48 GMT
FFS Stoke don't dive in, no need, clubs will be back and its early doors. I got told and posted on here that Nathan will be sold to dictate FFP not long ago, to give us some leveridge but please Stoke bide your time! He's signed to 2024. That leaves 3 years on contract. After next year, it surely becomes a run down the clock and leave for free deal? He's a great player, but if it means we can take that 12 million and underwite another decent forward, I'm all for it. I'd rather keep the highly talented youngster tbh, 3 years is plenty long enough, keep him for another year, let him improve and watch the offer double once the brexit rules properly kicks in. I can't see us investing much of it at all with the ffp situation.
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Post by march4 on Jun 11, 2021 9:01:04 GMT
I suggest we wait for a bidding war.
You don’t accept the first bid at a public auction.
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Post by bayernoatcake on Jun 11, 2021 9:02:44 GMT
12m is way too low. It should lead to resignations.
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shooters
Youth Player
POTTER POWER
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Post by shooters on Jun 11, 2021 9:04:56 GMT
Does Collins actually want to go ?
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Post by yyy on Jun 11, 2021 9:11:44 GMT
Let's not think oh it's Burnley they won't have the cash or be willing to spend it so it will be a lower fee.
Little Burnley have been a Premiership club for a good while now milking the gravy train and paying peanuts for players. They got £9m for Sam Vokes.
They can afford it, £15m is a steal. Pay for the player they want or look elsewhere. This isn't a player we are actively trying to sell, this is a player they want and we don't want to sell.
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Post by robwahlmann on Jun 11, 2021 9:17:39 GMT
There's not a single person on this forum who knows the full detail of our financial situation. Don't start pretending you do either Whilst I agree to a point with what you say, the noises coming out of the club, even the managers own mouth would suggest that from an FFP stand point we are either close to or over the the threshold, not being able to extend Powell's contract he said “It’s very difficult for us to do that at this minute in time because of the rules of FFP. We have players that are on contracts that are on contracts that are quite different to the players who have signed since I came to the club. “We have to be mindful in terms of that and setting the bar for wages that we’re prepared to pay and able to pay. At this minute in time we’re not in a position to be able to extend contracts. “We’ll look at the situation in the summer. Nick has a year to go and he obviously has had a very strong season. Those are the types of player you want to keep at the club. “At the moment, as we are readjusting financially how we are as a club, it’s more difficult to have those conversations.” The club recently posted an £87M loss, our transfer policy for the last year and a half all points towards the club being in a very tight position. Im not sure how much of an impact selling Collins for £12M will make, but I would think that it could be significant. Our outgoings to date this summer have hardly added much to the balance sheet, what are we at? Linsey (undisclosed- so possibly nothing) Wimmer (teared up his own contract), Ndye (who knows but no longer on the wage list) Clucas - not gone yet but we are literally giving him away. I've figured out all the time that we need to sell Collins to be able to get rid of a lot of high earners to fund FFP. Around £3M for Wimmer, £2M for Badou, £1.5M for Clucas, £1M for Woods, £1.5M for Vokes and what about Ince, Etebo, McClane and Allen? I think £12M will give us that little extra to bring 3-4 players in, loans, free bees or cheap options are what we can expect. I honestly think loans would be the best chance of us making the playoffs or am I way too optimistic!?
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toad
Academy Starlet
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Post by toad on Jun 11, 2021 9:21:34 GMT
12m is way too low. It should lead to resignations. I'd be disappointed if he left for that much but the reality is he's not worth more right now. He's looked uncomfortable at centre half at championship level, so I still think it's a gamble for any club to spend more than the quoted 12m. I think it's in everyone's best interests for him to stay for another 12 months, prove himself at centre back in the championship, likely become a full international and then move to the premier league for 20m plus next summer.
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Post by stokecitystar2011 on Jun 11, 2021 9:25:40 GMT
Let's not think oh it's Burnley they won't have the cash or be willing to spend it so it will be a lower fee. Little Burnley have been a Premiership club for a good while now milking the gravy train and paying peanuts for players. They got £9m for Sam Vokes. They can afford it, £15m is a steal. Pay for the player they want or look elsewhere. This isn't a player we are actively trying to sell, this is a player they want and we don't want to sell. I had overlooked that - the Vokes £9m - brilliant investment hes been.... Tell them Collins £15m and they can have Vokes back for what we paid for him - £9m. So in effect £24m for Collins - if only we could!
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Post by yyy on Jun 11, 2021 9:33:26 GMT
Let's not think oh it's Burnley they won't have the cash or be willing to spend it so it will be a lower fee. Little Burnley have been a Premiership club for a good while now milking the gravy train and paying peanuts for players. They got £9m for Sam Vokes. They can afford it, £15m is a steal. Pay for the player they want or look elsewhere. This isn't a player we are actively trying to sell, this is a player they want and we don't want to sell. I had overlooked that - the Vokes £9m - brilliant investment hes been.... Tell them Collins £15m and they can have Vokes back for what we paid for him - £9m. So in effect £24m for Collins - if only we could! At the very least a decent fee and vokes' contract paid off on top so we can get rid. Anything else is daylight robbery
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Post by GoBoks on Jun 11, 2021 9:33:46 GMT
He's signed to 2024. That leaves 3 years on contract. After next year, it surely becomes a run down the clock and leave for free deal? He's a great player, but if it means we can take that 12 million and underwite another decent forward, I'm all for it. Eh? He’s a talented 19-year-old with multiple high-profile suitors, three years is not a run-down-the-clock scenario My point was, after this coming season he has only 24 months left. If he refuses to extend, we could lose him for nothing and he gets a potential 10+ million payday. Because he is young, talented and will have many options, I believe there's a window of opportunity to sell which is the next 12-18 months, thereafter we are in increasingly risky territory.
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Post by s7oke on Jun 11, 2021 9:52:52 GMT
12m is way too low. It should lead to resignations. Gotta be starting at 25 million Just for the potential and his age Need one of the top six to buy with big sell on fee performance related payments and a couple of decent free loan signings from the buying club as part of the deal IF YOU DONT FUCKING ASK STOKE YOU DONT GET THE WORST THAT ANYONE CAM SAY IS NO !! For once why not try it
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Post by mickstupp on Jun 11, 2021 9:57:49 GMT
12m is way too low. It should lead to resignations. Gotta be starting at 25 million Just for the potential and his age Need one of the top six to buy with big sell on fee performance related payments and a couple of decent free loan signings from the buying club as part of the deal IF YOU DONT FUCKING ASK STOKE YOU DONT GET THE WORST THAT ANYONE CAM SAY IS NO !! For once why not try it Seems like the club need someone with your obvious experience in multi million pound transfer negotiations to help us. Have you tried calling the club or emailing Bet365 with your CV?
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