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Post by partickpotter on Jun 22, 2020 17:13:35 GMT
I didn’t say anyone called me a cunt. Carry on in your right wing echo chamber pretending you're all intellectuals when your motives are actually pretty clear for all to see. Like I said tiresome and tedious.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 22, 2020 17:20:35 GMT
Carry on in your right wing echo chamber pretending you're all intellectuals when your motives are actually pretty clear for all to see. Like I said tiresome and tedious. Yes the way you fail to call out the carbuncle of racism that oozes all over this board is rather tedious.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 22, 2020 17:29:39 GMT
People knock nationalism for obvious reasons but it’s really a bit of a miracle in that everyone chips in via paying taxes for the benefit of everyone within a particular nation, the majority of whom are complete strangers. Without the idea of a nation things would probably be a lot worse. Not really, I think most people understand the concept of mutual benefit, although I do sometimes wonder if many of the folk on here get the linkages all that often. Countries come and countries go. Our own has evolved though several stages. In the states there are loads of different taxes: local, city, state, federal. I'm not sure the concept of a country is all that important in that regard, although administratively I agree that it makes it a bit easier, at the possible cost of unnecessary nationalism. I don’t think nationalism is unnecessary at all and it’s pretty telling that you do. Here’s a quote from Haidt’s Righteous Mind. I can’t tell if you’ve actually read it or just looked at an overview of it but if you haven’t read it then I recommend you do. “Moral systems are interlocking sets of values, virtues, norms, practices, identities, institutions, technologies and evolved psychological mechanisms that work together to suppress or regulate self-interest and make cooperative societies possible”. It’s like you don’t understand why a sense of shared identity is an important motivating factor in the decision to help others. The idea of the nation performs the role that is required in the bit I’ve quoted.
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Post by daveandeddy on Jun 22, 2020 17:50:43 GMT
Admin....can you shut this foul mouth man up...its embarrasing Worrying about the left....Thats a strange way to put it
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 22, 2020 18:01:11 GMT
Admin....can you shut this foul mouth man up...its embarrasing Worrying about the left....Thats a strange way to put it I don’t agree with momo on a lot of things but there’s no need to suggest admin get involved over a bit of swearing.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 22, 2020 18:01:55 GMT
Admin....can you shut this foul mouth man up...its embarrasing Worrying about the left....Thats a strange way to put it Bloody hell, for someone whose posted as much right wing, racist filth as you have over the past 48 hours, crying to admin shows some quite remarkable front!
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Post by daveandeddy on Jun 22, 2020 18:05:40 GMT
Admin....can you shut this foul mouth man up...its embarrasing Worrying about the left....Thats a strange way to put it I don’t agree with momo on a lot of things but there’s no need to suggest admin get involved over a bit of swearing. Over a bit....Wow....go through his posts and then tell me a bit of swearing
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Post by daveandeddy on Jun 22, 2020 18:06:42 GMT
Admin....can you shut this foul mouth man up...its embarrasing Worrying about the left....Thats a strange way to put it Bloody hell, for someone whose posted as much right wing, racist filth as you have over the past 48 hours, crying to admin shows some quite remarkable front! Right wing racist...the leftys defence
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Post by FbrgVaStkFan on Jun 22, 2020 18:08:38 GMT
Admin....can you shut this foul mouth man up...its embarrasing Worrying about the left....Thats a strange way to put it Why? Just ignore him if it bothers you. Do you really only want those people who agree with you allowed on this board? Silencing helps no one, besides, you could be next.
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Post by daveandeddy on Jun 22, 2020 18:13:41 GMT
Admin....can you shut this foul mouth man up...its embarrasing Worrying about the left....Thats a strange way to put it Why? Just ignore him if it bothers you. Do you really only want those people who agree with you allowed on this board? Silencing helps no one, besides, you could be next. I want to debate not to listen to foul mouthed knuckledraggers
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 22, 2020 18:24:49 GMT
Why? Just ignore him if it bothers you. Do you really only want those people who agree with you allowed on this board? Silencing helps no one, besides, you could be next. I want to debate not to listen to foul mouthed knuckledraggers You say 'knuckledraggers' yet just in the past hour you've tried to tell people that a quarter of the UK population is Muslim and that they intend to take over the UK in the next 30 years To call you a knuckledragger would be the biggest wrong done to knuckledraggers in the past 100 years. You are way beneath knuckledragging level.
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 22, 2020 18:28:53 GMT
I want to debate not to listen to foul mouthed knuckledraggers You say 'knuckledraggers' yet just in the past hour you've tried to tell people that a quarter of the UK population is Muslim and that they intend to take over the UK in the next 30 years To call you a knuckledragger would be the biggest wrong done to knuckledraggers in the past 100 years. You are way beneath knuckledragging level. You’re on fire tonight🤣
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 22, 2020 18:30:49 GMT
Not really, I think most people understand the concept of mutual benefit, although I do sometimes wonder if many of the folk on here get the linkages all that often. Countries come and countries go. Our own has evolved though several stages. In the states there are loads of different taxes: local, city, state, federal. I'm not sure the concept of a country is all that important in that regard, although administratively I agree that it makes it a bit easier, at the possible cost of unnecessary nationalism. I don’t think nationalism is unnecessary at all and it’s pretty telling that you do. Here’s a quote from Haidt’s Righteous Mind. I can’t tell if you’ve actually read it or just looked at an overview of it but if you haven’t read it then I recommend you do. “Moral systems are interlocking sets of values, virtues, norms, practices, identities, institutions, technologies and evolved psychological mechanisms that work together to suppress or regulate self-interest and make cooperative societies possible”. It’s like you don’t understand why a sense of shared identity is an important motivating factor in the decision to help others. The idea of the nation performs the role that is required in the bit I’ve quoted. I don't like nationalism. It rarely ends well. I wouldn't restrict my desire to help others on the need to have a shared identity, but if you are inclined generally to more right-wing ideologies, as it appears, I can understand why this matters to you. It also chimes with Haidt's chart above, specifically the ingroup affiliation and caring about others. Other than cheering on England in sport or GB in the Olympics or the Lions in the rugby, all of which are essentially meaningless sporting diversions, I don't feel particularly attached to the concept of a country, which is a human construct after all. History shows us that countries come and go all the time. I don't see the point in being overly attached to one country over another, we're all just human beings after fundamentally the same things. Erecting artificial barriers and divisions doesn't help in that regard, which is probably why the general path over time is to eliminate those kind of constructs, although I accept again that administratively it's helpful.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 22, 2020 19:06:25 GMT
I don’t think nationalism is unnecessary at all and it’s pretty telling that you do. Here’s a quote from Haidt’s Righteous Mind. I can’t tell if you’ve actually read it or just looked at an overview of it but if you haven’t read it then I recommend you do. “Moral systems are interlocking sets of values, virtues, norms, practices, identities, institutions, technologies and evolved psychological mechanisms that work together to suppress or regulate self-interest and make cooperative societies possible”. It’s like you don’t understand why a sense of shared identity is an important motivating factor in the decision to help others. The idea of the nation performs the role that is required in the bit I’ve quoted. I don't like nationalism. It rarely ends well. I wouldn't restrict my desire to help others on the need to have a shared identity, but if you are inclined generally to more right-wing ideologies, as it appears, I can understand why this matters to you. It also chimes with Haidt's chart above, specifically the ingroup affiliation and caring about others. Other than cheering on England in sport or GB in the Olympics or the Lions in the rugby, all of which are essentially meaningless sporting diversions, I don't feel particularly attached to the concept of a country, which is a human construct after all. History shows us that countries come and go all the time. I don't see the point in being overly attached to one country over another, we're all just human beings after fundamentally the same things. Erecting artificial barriers and divisions doesn't help in that regard, which is probably why the general path over time is to eliminate those kind of constructs, although I accept again that administratively it's helpful. Countries are really just a collective set of values that have been developed over time aren’t they really. You can say it’s just a construct and it doesn’t really matter but actually it does for social cohesion. As an example people on the right are worried that immigration from a different culture could erode the set of values currently in place, and it doesn’t make them racist.
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Post by dutchstokie on Jun 22, 2020 20:20:58 GMT
You say 'knuckledraggers' yet just in the past hour you've tried to tell people that a quarter of the UK population is Muslim and that they intend to take over the UK in the next 30 years To call you a knuckledragger would be the biggest wrong done to knuckledraggers in the past 100 years. You are way beneath knuckledragging level. You’re on fire tonight🤣 Its funny isnt it !!!!
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Post by thehartshillbadger on Jun 22, 2020 20:22:13 GMT
It certainly is. Can’t wait for the next instalment 🤣
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Post by prettything on Jun 22, 2020 20:41:54 GMT
I don't like nationalism. It rarely ends well. I wouldn't restrict my desire to help others on the need to have a shared identity, but if you are inclined generally to more right-wing ideologies, as it appears, I can understand why this matters to you. It also chimes with Haidt's chart above, specifically the ingroup affiliation and caring about others. Other than cheering on England in sport or GB in the Olympics or the Lions in the rugby, all of which are essentially meaningless sporting diversions, I don't feel particularly attached to the concept of a country, which is a human construct after all. History shows us that countries come and go all the time. I don't see the point in being overly attached to one country over another, we're all just human beings after fundamentally the same things. Erecting artificial barriers and divisions doesn't help in that regard, which is probably why the general path over time is to eliminate those kind of constructs, although I accept again that administratively it's helpful. Countries are really just a collective set of values that have been developed over time aren’t they really. You can say it’s just a construct and it doesn’t really matter but actually it does for social cohesion. As an example people on the right are worried that immigration from a different culture could erode the set of values currently in place, and it doesn’t make them racist. I think linking nationalism with a “countries collective set of values” is a red herring and potentially dangerous and misleading. Being against immigration or controlling it, doesn’t fall into a nations values, it’s an opinion and doesn’t reflect our values or traditions. It could be argued that we are a nation of immigrants, with very few native to this country in the England we live in today. Nationalism, means different things to different people. There are countless examples of it being used as an ideology for good and bad.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 22, 2020 21:00:44 GMT
Countries are really just a collective set of values that have been developed over time aren’t they really. You can say it’s just a construct and it doesn’t really matter but actually it does for social cohesion. As an example people on the right are worried that immigration from a different culture could erode the set of values currently in place, and it doesn’t make them racist. I think linking nationalism with a “countries collective set of values” is a red herring and potentially dangerous and misleading. Being against immigration or controlling it, doesn’t fall into a nations values, it’s an opinion and doesn’t reflect our values or traditions. It could be argued that we are a nation of immigrants, with very few native to this country in the England we live in today. Nationalism, means different things to different people. There are countless examples of it being used as an ideology for good and bad. My point wasn’t that being against immigration is one of our values, but that there some people that feel our values will be impacted by large scale immigrants, rightly or wrongly.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 22, 2020 21:06:34 GMT
Just look at the sickening attacks on Ash Sarkar this weekend to see not "the future of the Right" but the CURRENT Right.
Emboldened, proudly racist, proudly violent. Johnson being somewhat of an hero to them as they push their perverted view of patriotism and immigration.
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Post by prettything on Jun 22, 2020 21:10:41 GMT
I think linking nationalism with a “countries collective set of values” is a red herring and potentially dangerous and misleading. Being against immigration or controlling it, doesn’t fall into a nations values, it’s an opinion and doesn’t reflect our values or traditions. It could be argued that we are a nation of immigrants, with very few native to this country in the England we live in today. Nationalism, means different things to different people. There are countless examples of it being used as an ideology for good and bad. My point wasn’t that being against immigration is one of our values, but that there some people that feel our values will be impacted by large scale immigrants, rightly or wrongly. I understand. What “values” would be impacted by this? What are our values ?
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 22, 2020 21:10:53 GMT
Just look at the sickening attacks on Ash Sarkar this weekend to see not "the future of the Right" but the CURRENT Right. Emboldened, proudly racist, proudly violent. Johnson being somewhat of an hero to them as they push their perverted view of patriotism and immigration. The abuse she has received is totally uncalled for.
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Post by salopstick on Jun 22, 2020 21:12:58 GMT
A bruising defeat. I've been licking some wounds and let the rest get their gloating in. I can look back now and accept how wrong I got it myself. I really believed that the Labour manifesto could and would cross and bridge the divide. It didn't. There's always a few reasons why elections go the way the do. Could I cry about unfair coverage? Could I bemoan dirtier tactics? Should I have expected it? Yeah to all. A lefty will never be on a level playing field, never have, never will. Ultimately Labour failed to unite the working class. I'm inclined to believe it wasn't because of policy. Granted most don't give a toss about broadband but the vast majority of that Labour manifesto was present two years ago and polling suggested large swathes of the country support nationalisation of key infrastructure and utilities. Was it Corbyn? Well he was a part of it yeah. Granted he was there two years ago and not rejected so overwhelmingly. There's no denying he energised so many, but also disconnected many others too, he was too devisive and he failed in his message of the manifesto being up front and centre over Brexit. Ah Brexit, that was the difference wasn't it? So many on here said it and admitedly I didn't accept it but Labours shift from honouring the result to ref mk2 failed. We can argue over Brexit forever but what is clear is there's a mandate for a deal now, so like it or lump it I suppose. But where does the left go? The reasons for the rise of Corbynism still exist and aren't seemingly going anywhere. Wage stagnation, home shortage, poverty, public sector pain. The centre ground has been holed out in the last 24 hours too. All moderates from both sides have all but vanished. It really is an even stronger two party system so it's vital for the left to come together. Take defeat on the chin. Learn lessons and go again. What do they need to do differently? For me listening. Next is action with less talking and more doing. The army of supporters are useless digitally, they need to be on the streets. They need to be working with the homeless, food banks. They need to start change more locally instead of waiting every 5 years to ask for votes on doorsteps. That manifesto though. For the left large aspects of it must remain. That's the starting ground where the debate starts. Allowing another Blair'esque leader will only undo the groundwork put in but its got to be a unifying candidate. If Brexit was to go ahead now as it should, who can do it? Clive Lewis is probably for me the strongest of what's left over after this decimation. Unless the party, their supporters and momo stop this virtue signalling and faux disgust at the world they have no future Normal people just want to get on with their lives
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Post by salopstick on Jun 22, 2020 21:25:39 GMT
Telling the biggest single voting group ever, that they are thick, racist bigots, who didn't know what they were voting for, and they must vote again, is not the best election strategy. BLM seem to be taking the same stance
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Post by sheikhmomo on Jun 22, 2020 21:29:40 GMT
Telling the biggest single voting group ever, that they are thick, racist bigots, who didn't know what they were voting for, and they must vote again, is not the best election strategy. BLM seem to be taking the same stance Are you saying the vote in December 2019 was one to subjugate black people?!
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Post by salopstick on Jun 22, 2020 21:35:01 GMT
BLM seem to be taking the same stance Are you saying the vote in December 2019 was one to subjugate black people?! Not at all but BLM the organisation is creating division, is creating tension and is creating a response from the equally abhorrent far right. The Burnley plane being the latest
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Post by prettything on Jun 22, 2020 22:02:20 GMT
Are you saying the vote in December 2019 was one to subjugate black people?! Not at all but BLM the organisation is creating division, is creating tension and is creating a response from the equally abhorrent far right. The Burnley plane being the latest The BLM is only creating division to those people that are threatened or against it. It wasn’t set up to be divisive. Just for their voices to be listened to. It is an organisation that are standing up for the imbalance and injustice they have gone through, for years. For some reason, many are threatened by this . They have either linked or associated the looting, which has taken place along side these largely peaceful protests, or worse, assumed that the organisation are somehow conveying only black lives matter, which isn’t the case at all. However, I do have sympathy with many who criticise the UK protests. There are many working class white people in this country who are struggling at the bottom, and are rightly saying, “ we are struggling as well!”. Most of us, being from Stoke, growing up in a working class city such as ours, haven’t had the same opportunities as those living in other cities. (Mainly down south) It’s divide and conquer from the ruling classes. I hope we can empathise, even join forces, and deal with the imbalance together .
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 6:17:40 GMT
My point wasn’t that being against immigration is one of our values, but that there some people that feel our values will be impacted by large scale immigrants, rightly or wrongly. I understand. What “values” would be impacted by this? What are our values ? www.gov.uk/government/news/guidance-on-promoting-british-values-in-schools-published- Democracy - The rule of law - Individual Liberty - Mutual respect - Tolerance of those of different faiths and beliefs
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Post by partickpotter on Jun 23, 2020 6:27:06 GMT
It’s a good set of values. Certain posters, well one tiresome and tedious one in particular, seem to have great difficulties with (at least) the last two of these.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 6:30:46 GMT
Not at all but BLM the organisation is creating division, is creating tension and is creating a response from the equally abhorrent far right. The Burnley plane being the latest The BLM is only creating division to those people that are threatened or against it. It wasn’t set up to be divisive. Just for their voices to be listened to. It is an organisation that are standing up for the imbalance and injustice they have gone through, for years. For some reason, many are threatened by this . They have either linked or associated the looting, which has taken place along side these largely peaceful protests, or worse, assumed that the organisation are somehow conveying only black lives matter, which isn’t the case at all. However, I do have sympathy with many who criticise the UK protests. There are many working class white people in this country who are struggling at the bottom, and are rightly saying, “ we are struggling as well!”. Most of us, being from Stoke, growing up in a working class city such as ours, haven’t had the same opportunities as those living in other cities. (Mainly down south) It’s divide and conquer from the ruling classes. I hope we can empathise, even join forces, and deal with the imbalance together . Really? disrn.com/news/video-surfaces-of-black-lives-matter-founder-saying-were-trained-marxistsHow about one of the leaders of BLM saying they are trained Marxists? You also see the concept of ‘white privilege’ continually being pushed. This isn’t a useful concept and is only going to create further divisions. How about the video going around yesterday of white people enforcing a space where only people of colour can enter. Does that sound like a good idea? Shaun King demanding that all Western depictions of Jesus are removed/destroyed because it promotes white supremacy. I get the general aim of BLM is a noble one but there is so much of this other nonsense that comes with it.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 23, 2020 6:40:24 GMT
I don't like nationalism. It rarely ends well. I wouldn't restrict my desire to help others on the need to have a shared identity, but if you are inclined generally to more right-wing ideologies, as it appears, I can understand why this matters to you. It also chimes with Haidt's chart above, specifically the ingroup affiliation and caring about others. Other than cheering on England in sport or GB in the Olympics or the Lions in the rugby, all of which are essentially meaningless sporting diversions, I don't feel particularly attached to the concept of a country, which is a human construct after all. History shows us that countries come and go all the time. I don't see the point in being overly attached to one country over another, we're all just human beings after fundamentally the same things. Erecting artificial barriers and divisions doesn't help in that regard, which is probably why the general path over time is to eliminate those kind of constructs, although I accept again that administratively it's helpful. Countries are really just a collective set of values that have been developed over time aren’t they really. You can say it’s just a construct and it doesn’t really matter but actually it does for social cohesion. As an example people on the right are worried that immigration from a different culture could erode the set of values currently in place, and it doesn’t make them racist. But they're never fixed. They come and they go. You may as well argue against evolution, or the mutability of language or the forces of geology. It's interesting how quickly the crucial importance of the existence of one particular aspect of social cohesion, ie one particular country, wanes as soon as that country disappears. No-one bothers about the absence of Mercia or Prussia or any of the city states of what we now call Italy. And this precious thing we call England is really just the land of Angles who were northern Europeans, which underlines the transient nature of countries and why I don't really get the nationalism thing. But this is a fair old digression from the future of the left!
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