|
Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 9, 2020 15:56:46 GMT
The future of the left... Trevor Phillips dismayed at Labour suspension over Muslim comments | Trevor Phillips | The Guardian "Trevor Phillips, the former head of the equalities watchdog, has condemned Labour’s decision to suspend him from the party over alleged Islamophobia, while defending his view that the UK Muslim population is “different”. “I’m kind of surprised that what is and always has been an open and democratic party decides that its members cannot have a healthy debate about how we address differences of values and outlook,” Phillips said. “They say I am accusing Muslims of being different. Well actually, that’s true. The point is Muslims are different. And in many ways I think that’s admirable.” Asked about his warning in 2016 that Muslims were becoming a “nation within a nation” being adopted by the far-right anti-Muslim campaigner Tommy Robinson, Phillips said he had not heard about this, adding: “As my grandmother says, just because the devil picks up a tune doesn’t mean it is a bad tune.” www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/09/labour-suspends-former-head-of-ehrc-over-alleged-islamophobia
|
|
|
Post by lawrieleslie on Mar 11, 2020 7:22:46 GMT
I think that James MacLean has the left wing wrapped up for next season providing he recovers ok from injury. Left back is the problem and who knows what the future holds .....must be a priority for MON in the summer window.
|
|
|
Post by felonious on Mar 11, 2020 7:36:28 GMT
The future of the left... Trevor Phillips dismayed at Labour suspension over Muslim comments | Trevor Phillips | The Guardian "Trevor Phillips, the former head of the equalities watchdog, has condemned Labour’s decision to suspend him from the party over alleged Islamophobia, while defending his view that the UK Muslim population is “different”. “I’m kind of surprised that what is and always has been an open and democratic party decides that its members cannot have a healthy debate about how we address differences of values and outlook,” Phillips said. “They say I am accusing Muslims of being different. Well actually, that’s true. The point is Muslims are different. And in many ways I think that’s admirable.” Asked about his warning in 2016 that Muslims were becoming a “nation within a nation” being adopted by the far-right anti-Muslim campaigner Tommy Robinson, Phillips said he had not heard about this, adding: “As my grandmother says, just because the devil picks up a tune doesn’t mean it is a bad tune.” www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/mar/09/labour-suspends-former-head-of-ehrc-over-alleged-islamophobiaThe poor Guardian must be all over the place with this one much like the current Labour hierarchy
|
|
|
Post by crouchpotato1 on Jun 19, 2020 7:40:05 GMT
|
|
|
Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 20, 2020 7:23:20 GMT
The woke virus is spreading and you only have to look at what is starting to happen in media organisations like the New York Times to see this.
There’s a lot of conflict between the older journalists and the young journalists entering the profession fresh from learning all about being woke at university.
There’s been a fundamental shift and it’s not going to end well.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 7:44:31 GMT
The woke virus is spreading and you only have to look at what is starting to happen in media organisations like the New York Times to see this. There’s a lot of conflict between the older journalists and the young journalists entering the profession fresh from learning all about being woke at university. There’s been a fundamental shift and it’s not going to end well. That makes little sense to me? Expand a bit please.....
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 20, 2020 8:32:13 GMT
Woke (/ˈwoʊk/) as a political term of African-American origin refers to a perceived awareness of issues concerning social justice and racial justice. It is derived from the African-American Vernacular English expression "stay woke", whose grammatical aspect refers to a continuing awareness of these issues.
Definition from wikipedia
To describe that as a 'virus' is very telling.
|
|
|
Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 20, 2020 9:20:22 GMT
The woke virus is spreading and you only have to look at what is starting to happen in media organisations like the New York Times to see this. There’s a lot of conflict between the older journalists and the young journalists entering the profession fresh from learning all about being woke at university. There’s been a fundamental shift and it’s not going to end well. That makes little sense to me? Expand a bit please..... Here is an excellent article which explains the current problem in journalism. taibbi.substack.com/p/the-news-media-is-destroying-itself
|
|
|
Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 20, 2020 9:22:34 GMT
Woke (/ˈwoʊk/) as a political term of African-American origin refers to a perceived awareness of issues concerning social justice and racial justice. It is derived from the African-American Vernacular English expression "stay woke", whose grammatical aspect refers to a continuing awareness of these issues. Definition from wikipedia To describe that as a 'virus' is very telling. Please expand on what you mean.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 20, 2020 11:52:45 GMT
Woke (/ˈwoʊk/) as a political term of African-American origin refers to a perceived awareness of issues concerning social justice and racial justice. It is derived from the African-American Vernacular English expression "stay woke", whose grammatical aspect refers to a continuing awareness of these issues. Definition from wikipedia To describe that as a 'virus' is very telling. Please expand on what you mean. I would have though it fairly obvious. You chose to describe the "woke" thing (whatever it even is!) as a "woke virus", which, if nothing else, exposes your thinking around it. Unless you're using the word 'virus' as a positive thing, of course? An unorthodox and unconventional usage, but possible I suppose. The whole derogatory "woke" thing is just another iteration of that kind of negative terminology from people with your apparent thinking viz. social justice warrior; political correctness; do-gooder; tree-hugger; the list is endless. To me it just signifies people trying to highlight injustice and prejudice that is faced by certain sections of society, but to others it appears to be a threat which needs targeting. I find that a bit bizarre. I suspect describing the woke virus in the terms you did is an example of such thinking.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2020 12:13:16 GMT
Please expand on what you mean. I would have though it fairly obvious. You chose to describe the "woke" thing (whatever it even is!) as a "woke virus", which, if nothing else, exposes your thinking around it. Unless you're using the word 'virus' as a positive thing, of course? An unorthodox and unconventional usage, but possible I suppose. The whole derogatory "woke" thing is just another iteration of that kind of negative terminology from people with your apparent thinking viz. social justice warrior; political correctness; do-gooder; tree-hugger; the list is endless. To me it just signifies people trying to highlight injustice and prejudice that is faced by certain sections of society, but to others it appears to be a threat which needs targeting. I find that a bit bizarre. I suspect describing the woke virus in the terms you did is an example of such thinking. Don’t forget virtue signalling......
|
|
|
Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 20, 2020 12:15:54 GMT
Please expand on what you mean. I would have though it fairly obvious. You chose to describe the "woke" thing (whatever it even is!) as a "woke virus", which, if nothing else, exposes your thinking around it. Unless you're using the word 'virus' as a positive thing, of course? An unorthodox and unconventional usage, but possible I suppose. The whole derogatory "woke" thing is just another iteration of that kind of negative terminology from people with your apparent thinking viz. social justice warrior; political correctness; do-gooder; tree-hugger; the list is endless. To me it just signifies people trying to highlight injustice and prejudice that is faced by certain sections of society, but to others it appears to be a threat which needs targeting. I find that a bit bizarre. I suspect describing the woke virus in the terms you did is an example of such thinking. The way you frame it ‘people trying to highlight injustice and prejudice’ makes me sound awfully unreasonable doesn’t it. Except I don’t agree with the way you’re framing it. I don’t believe that the woke movement necessarily targets the right things, at the right time, for the right reasons.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 20, 2020 12:31:55 GMT
I would have though it fairly obvious. You chose to describe the "woke" thing (whatever it even is!) as a "woke virus", which, if nothing else, exposes your thinking around it. Unless you're using the word 'virus' as a positive thing, of course? An unorthodox and unconventional usage, but possible I suppose. The whole derogatory "woke" thing is just another iteration of that kind of negative terminology from people with your apparent thinking viz. social justice warrior; political correctness; do-gooder; tree-hugger; the list is endless. To me it just signifies people trying to highlight injustice and prejudice that is faced by certain sections of society, but to others it appears to be a threat which needs targeting. I find that a bit bizarre. I suspect describing the woke virus in the terms you did is an example of such thinking. Don’t forget virtue signalling...... Yes, thank you, I knew there was another one I was missing!
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 20, 2020 12:32:23 GMT
I would have though it fairly obvious. You chose to describe the "woke" thing (whatever it even is!) as a "woke virus", which, if nothing else, exposes your thinking around it. Unless you're using the word 'virus' as a positive thing, of course? An unorthodox and unconventional usage, but possible I suppose. The whole derogatory "woke" thing is just another iteration of that kind of negative terminology from people with your apparent thinking viz. social justice warrior; political correctness; do-gooder; tree-hugger; the list is endless. To me it just signifies people trying to highlight injustice and prejudice that is faced by certain sections of society, but to others it appears to be a threat which needs targeting. I find that a bit bizarre. I suspect describing the woke virus in the terms you did is an example of such thinking. The way you frame it ‘people trying to highlight injustice and prejudice’ makes me sound awfully unreasonable doesn’t it. Except I don’t agree with the way you’re framing it. I don’t believe that the woke movement necessarily targets the right things, at the right time, for the right reasons. Obviously. That's why you consider it a virus.
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Jun 20, 2020 12:38:41 GMT
The way you frame it ‘people trying to highlight injustice and prejudice’ makes me sound awfully unreasonable doesn’t it. Except I don’t agree with the way you’re framing it. I don’t believe that the woke movement necessarily targets the right things, at the right time, for the right reasons. Obviously. That's why you consider it a virus. I think virus is the wrong word to compare woke with Its more a plague of locusts devouring everything before it
|
|
|
Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 20, 2020 12:39:14 GMT
The way you frame it ‘people trying to highlight injustice and prejudice’ makes me sound awfully unreasonable doesn’t it. Except I don’t agree with the way you’re framing it. I don’t believe that the woke movement necessarily targets the right things, at the right time, for the right reasons. Obviously. That's why you consider it a virus. Obviously. The way you said ‘is very telling’, the wording just seemed strange.
|
|
|
Post by thevoid on Jun 20, 2020 12:51:18 GMT
Obviously. That's why you consider it a virus. Obviously. The way you said ‘is very telling’, the wording just seemed strange. This isn't a criticism (quite the opposite in fact) but if memory serves you used to be quite left-leaning when you posted on here before. Has something happened to change your mindset? By that, I don't necessarily mean a specific incident, or something that affected you directly, but maybe on a more subconscious level.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 20, 2020 13:05:10 GMT
Obviously. That's why you consider it a virus. Obviously. The way you said ‘is very telling’, the wording just seemed strange. We appear to be in agreement then! Be sure to let the woke, SJWs, virtue-signallers, do-gooders, tree-huggers and any other versions of the folk you consider to be part of the same virus just when, where and how they can raise awareness of their issues in a way that is satisfactory to you.
|
|
|
Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 20, 2020 13:14:05 GMT
Obviously. The way you said ‘is very telling’, the wording just seemed strange. This isn't a criticism (quite the opposite in fact) but if memory serves you used to be quite left-leaning when you posted on here before. Has something happened to change your mindset? By that, I don't necessarily mean a specific incident, or something that affected you directly, but maybe on a more subconscious level. I’ve always thought the fringe of the left was bad but such views are becoming more and more mainstream and doesn’t represent me. I’ve also just continued to learn and realised that many of my intuitions were wrong, intellectuals like Jonathan Haidt and Thomas Sowell have been very influential. I’m all for improving society wherever possible but as an analogy I think that in order to be able to compete a jigsaw puzzle you need all the pieces and the left just hasn’t got them. I consider myself politically homeless at the moment.
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 21, 2020 8:14:23 GMT
Haidt is interesting. I agree with the social intuition concept, I pretty much said the same in a post on the institutional racism thread, a lot of initial reaction does come from innate responses, but that's the great thing about also having the ability to rationalise. This is an interesting chart. I'd agree with it. For clarity, the names on the lines represent Care/Harm, Fairness/Cheating, Loyalty/Betrayal, Authority/Subversion, Sanctity/Degradation. The Liberals/Progressives score higher on the Care end of the Harm line, before anyone gets excited! Likewise the Fairness. You only have to look at the majority of the responses on all the threads we've had about immigration, terrorism, taxation, Brexit, crime etc etc on here to see that those on the Right care less about caring for others and fairness towards others than do liberals/progressives and more about Authority and their own in-group. Look at the Madeleine McCann thread, most of those posters who routinely support right-wing causes are all over hanging the McCanns and condemning two suffering parents before they've even been charged with anything. Authority, unfairness and lack of care in plain sight. Conversely, those liberals/progressives have less regard for authority, purity and In-group, than do Conservatives. I think it explains a good deal of the posts on this board and the thinking behind them.
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Jun 21, 2020 8:20:40 GMT
Haidt is interesting. I agree with the social intuition concept, I pretty much said the same in a post on the institutional racism thread, a lot of initial reaction does come from innate responses, but that's the great thing about also having the ability to rationalise. This is an interesting chart. I'd agree with it. For clarity, the names on the lines represent Care/Harm, Fairness/Cheating, Loyalty/Betrayal, Authority/Subversion, Sanctity/Degradation. The Liberals/Progressives score higher on the Care end of the Harm line, before anyone gets excited! You only have to look at the majority of the responses on all the threads we've had about immigration, terrorism, taxation, Brexit, crime etc etc on here to see that those on the Right care less about caring for others and fairness towards others than do liberals/progressives and more about Authority and their own in-group. Look at the Madeleine McCann thread, most of those posters who routinely support right-wing causes are all over hanging the McCanns and condemning two suffering parents before they've even been charged with anything. Authority, unfairness and lack of care in plain sight. Conversely, those liberals/progressives have less regard for authority, purity and In-group, than do Conservatives. On the point of the McCanns a lot of people are more concerned with the hypocrisy of the fact that two doctors don't get charged with child neglect when hundreds of less educated people have for offences that resulted in less tragic circumstances
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 21, 2020 8:26:59 GMT
Haidt is interesting. I agree with the social intuition concept, I pretty much said the same in a post on the institutional racism thread, a lot of initial reaction does come from innate responses, but that's the great thing about also having the ability to rationalise. This is an interesting chart. I'd agree with it. For clarity, the names on the lines represent Care/Harm, Fairness/Cheating, Loyalty/Betrayal, Authority/Subversion, Sanctity/Degradation. The Liberals/Progressives score higher on the Care end of the Harm line, before anyone gets excited! You only have to look at the majority of the responses on all the threads we've had about immigration, terrorism, taxation, Brexit, crime etc etc on here to see that those on the Right care less about caring for others and fairness towards others than do liberals/progressives and more about Authority and their own in-group. Look at the Madeleine McCann thread, most of those posters who routinely support right-wing causes are all over hanging the McCanns and condemning two suffering parents before they've even been charged with anything. Authority, unfairness and lack of care in plain sight. Conversely, those liberals/progressives have less regard for authority, purity and In-group, than do Conservatives. On the point of the McCanns a lot of people are more concerned with the hypocrisy of the fact that two doctors don't get charged with child neglect when hundreds of less educated people have for offences that resulted in less tragic circumstances Straw man. That wasn't the point. The point is it's interesting to see which posters from which side of the political divide have condemned them and which generally haven't. It basically demonstrates the above chart, especially when it comes to fairness, authority and care. Haidt is probably correct if our sample set is anything to go by. (I'm sure someone will now pivot towards something along the lines of where was the care and fairness towards Madeleine shown by her parents, in order to deflect away from the point ).
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2020 8:29:40 GMT
This isn't a criticism (quite the opposite in fact) but if memory serves you used to be quite left-leaning when you posted on here before. Has something happened to change your mindset? By that, I don't necessarily mean a specific incident, or something that affected you directly, but maybe on a more subconscious level. I’ve always thought the fringe of the left was bad but such views are becoming more and more mainstream and doesn’t represent me. I’ve also just continued to learn and realised that many of my intuitions were wrong, intellectuals like Jonathan Haidt and Thomas Sowell have been very influential. I’m all for improving society wherever possible but as an analogy I think that in order to be able to compete a jigsaw puzzle you need all the pieces and the left just hasn’t got them. I consider myself politically homeless at the moment. “I’m all for improving society wherever possible” You’re not political homeless fella, the Lib Dems are definitely the party for you.....
|
|
|
Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 21, 2020 8:48:10 GMT
I’ve always thought the fringe of the left was bad but such views are becoming more and more mainstream and doesn’t represent me. I’ve also just continued to learn and realised that many of my intuitions were wrong, intellectuals like Jonathan Haidt and Thomas Sowell have been very influential. I’m all for improving society wherever possible but as an analogy I think that in order to be able to compete a jigsaw puzzle you need all the pieces and the left just hasn’t got them. I consider myself politically homeless at the moment. “I’m all for improving society wherever possible” You’re not political homeless fella, the Lib Dems are definitely the party for you..... Nope.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2020 8:50:13 GMT
“I’m all for improving society wherever possible” You’re not political homeless fella, the Lib Dems are definitely the party for you..... Nope. Tories it is then. Admit it and move on each to their own..... :-)
|
|
|
Post by wagsastokie on Jun 21, 2020 8:53:32 GMT
I’ve always thought the fringe of the left was bad but such views are becoming more and more mainstream and doesn’t represent me. I’ve also just continued to learn and realised that many of my intuitions were wrong, intellectuals like Jonathan Haidt and Thomas Sowell have been very influential. I’m all for improving society wherever possible but as an analogy I think that in order to be able to compete a jigsaw puzzle you need all the pieces and the left just hasn’t got them. I consider myself politically homeless at the moment. “I’m all for improving society wherever possible” You’re not political homeless fella, the Lib Dems are definitely the party for you..... Ah the good old lib dems Is that the bunch who spend there entire time riding two horses with one arse One thing on one election leaflet Something totally different in another seat depending on who the main party they are fighting Yes a party of true principle
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2020 8:56:52 GMT
“I’m all for improving society wherever possible” You’re not political homeless fella, the Lib Dems are definitely the party for you..... Ah the good old lib dems Is that the bunch who spend there entire time riding two horses with one arse One thing on one election leaflet Something totally different in another seat depending on who the main party they are fighting Yes a party of true principle “What do we want? Real change” “When do we want it? Erm, can we just see how things go these next few years and take it from there?”
|
|
|
Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 21, 2020 9:00:25 GMT
On the point of the McCanns a lot of people are more concerned with the hypocrisy of the fact that two doctors don't get charged with child neglect when hundreds of less educated people have for offences that resulted in less tragic circumstances Straw man. That wasn't the point. The point is it's interesting to see which posters from which side of the political divide have condemned them and which generally haven't. It basically demonstrates the above chart, especially when it comes to fairness, authority and care. Haidt is probably correct if our sample set is anything to go by. (I'm sure someone will now pivot towards something along the lines of where was the care and fairness towards Madeleine shown by her parents, in order to deflect away from the point ). Pretty much. When it comes to personal responsibility the left rarely acknowledge it is a factor whereas for others it’s a significant factor. Owen Jones as an example, everything is always someone else’s fault.
|
|
|
Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 21, 2020 9:04:01 GMT
Tories it is then. Admit it and move on each to their own..... :-) Already said I’m politically homeless ....
|
|
|
Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 22, 2020 7:11:44 GMT
Straw man. That wasn't the point. The point is it's interesting to see which posters from which side of the political divide have condemned them and which generally haven't. It basically demonstrates the above chart, especially when it comes to fairness, authority and care. Haidt is probably correct if our sample set is anything to go by. (I'm sure someone will now pivot towards something along the lines of where was the care and fairness towards Madeleine shown by her parents, in order to deflect away from the point ). Pretty much. When it comes to personal responsibility the left rarely acknowledge it is a factor whereas for others it’s a significant factor. Owen Jones as an example, everything is always someone else’s fault. Bloody hell! You want to try reading some of the right-wing newspapers (which are full of pieces by right-wing politicians) - everything is always someone else's fault. So far this coronavirus farce (worst outcome in Europe, let's not forget) is the fault, variously, of China, PHE, WHO, the civil service, the NHS, never the ones actually in charge! Let's not forget we've had right-wing governments for 28 of the last 41 years. And a centrist, neo-liberal economic one in-between. You'd really think that such a preponderance of the right and free market capitalism would have sorted out the UKs problems by now. We've never been more divided politically, racially or in terms of inequality.
|
|