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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 6:55:58 GMT
Countries are really just a collective set of values that have been developed over time aren’t they really. You can say it’s just a construct and it doesn’t really matter but actually it does for social cohesion. As an example people on the right are worried that immigration from a different culture could erode the set of values currently in place, and it doesn’t make them racist. But they're never fixed. They come and they go. You may as well argue against evolution, or the mutability of language or the forces of geology. It's interesting how quickly the crucial importance of the existence of one particular aspect of social cohesion, ie one particular country, wanes as soon as that country disappears. No-one bothers about the absence of Mercia or Prussia or any of the city states of what we now call Italy. And this precious thing we call England is really just the land of Angles who were northern Europeans, which underlines the transient nature of countries and why I don't really get the nationalism thing. But this is a fair old digression from the future of the left! Nationalism to some is singing Dame Vera Lynn songs on VE Day whilst waving a Union Jack flag and not paying your taxes. To others it’s been a respectful, law abiding citizen and getting involved in their community alongside neighbours of all creeds and colours irrespective of where it says they were born on their passport. But back to the future of the left, this is the latest brainwave from Labour List. Starmer is “really patriotic” apparently.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 23, 2020 7:07:49 GMT
The BLM is only creating division to those people that are threatened or against it. It wasn’t set up to be divisive. Just for their voices to be listened to. It is an organisation that are standing up for the imbalance and injustice they have gone through, for years. For some reason, many are threatened by this . They have either linked or associated the looting, which has taken place along side these largely peaceful protests, or worse, assumed that the organisation are somehow conveying only black lives matter, which isn’t the case at all. However, I do have sympathy with many who criticise the UK protests. There are many working class white people in this country who are struggling at the bottom, and are rightly saying, “ we are struggling as well!”. Most of us, being from Stoke, growing up in a working class city such as ours, haven’t had the same opportunities as those living in other cities. (Mainly down south) It’s divide and conquer from the ruling classes. I hope we can empathise, even join forces, and deal with the imbalance together . Really? disrn.com/news/video-surfaces-of-black-lives-matter-founder-saying-were-trained-marxistsHow about one of the leaders of BLM saying they are trained Marxists? You also see the concept of ‘white privilege’ continually being pushed. This isn’t a useful concept and is only going to create further divisions. How about the video going around yesterday of white people enforcing a space where only people of colour can enter. Does that sound like a good idea? Shaun King demanding that all Western depictions of Jesus are removed/destroyed because it promotes white supremacy. I get the general aim of BLM is a noble one but there is so much of this other nonsense that comes with it. The point about Jesus is a fair one. I wonder how many folk n the West would be quite so keen to worship someone who looked like this? I guess this is why the image has been 'westernised' for ease of consumption over the centuries...but again, we digress.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 7:10:29 GMT
Countries are really just a collective set of values that have been developed over time aren’t they really. You can say it’s just a construct and it doesn’t really matter but actually it does for social cohesion. As an example people on the right are worried that immigration from a different culture could erode the set of values currently in place, and it doesn’t make them racist. But they're never fixed. They come and they go. You may as well argue against evolution, or the mutability of language or the forces of geology. It's interesting how quickly the crucial importance of the existence of one particular aspect of social cohesion, ie one particular country, wanes as soon as that country disappears. No-one bothers about the absence of Mercia or Prussia or any of the city states of what we now call Italy. And this precious thing we call England is really just the land of Angles who were northern Europeans, which underlines the transient nature of countries and why I don't really get the nationalism thing. But this is a fair old digression from the future of the left! I’ve never claimed they’re fixed, they do come and go yes. But Western Society does have a way of doing things that is somewhat unique. There is a reason that terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda don’t like the US and the UK among others. You can’t really claim that our society is just a construct that doesn’t really mean anything.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 23, 2020 7:31:33 GMT
But they're never fixed. They come and they go. You may as well argue against evolution, or the mutability of language or the forces of geology. It's interesting how quickly the crucial importance of the existence of one particular aspect of social cohesion, ie one particular country, wanes as soon as that country disappears. No-one bothers about the absence of Mercia or Prussia or any of the city states of what we now call Italy. And this precious thing we call England is really just the land of Angles who were northern Europeans, which underlines the transient nature of countries and why I don't really get the nationalism thing. But this is a fair old digression from the future of the left! I’ve never claimed they’re fixed, they do come and go yes. But Western Society does have a way of doing things that is somewhat unique. There is a reason that terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda don’t like the US and the UK among others. You can’t really claim that our society is just a construct that doesn’t really mean anything. I didn't say that. I was saying that countries are an artificial construct that have evolved, mainly, for ease of administration, and because of that they can come and go fairly easily. Various units of administration have evolved over the millennia. Currently we call them countries at an international level. There's really nothing special about them. I accept that they play a role in social cohesion, as do so many other levels of what is essentially tribalism, as I said on the institutional racism thread. What I don't like is where this concept of what is basically an administrative construct becomes bound up in nationalism and all of the negative things that nearly always flow from that approach. Division, difference, intolerance, fear, aggression, it's obvious where it ultimately ends up and has done on so many occasions. Nationalism is a dangerous game and people should be very wary of it.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 7:43:58 GMT
I’ve never claimed they’re fixed, they do come and go yes. But Western Society does have a way of doing things that is somewhat unique. There is a reason that terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda don’t like the US and the UK among others. You can’t really claim that our society is just a construct that doesn’t really mean anything. I didn't say that. I was saying that countries are an artificial construct that have evolved, mainly, for ease of administration, and because of that they can come and go fairly easily. Various units of administration have evolved over the millennia. Currently we call them countries at an international level. There's really nothing special about them. I accept that they play a role in social cohesion, as do so many other levels of what is essentially tribalism, as I said on the institutional racism thread. What I don't like is where this concept of what is basically an administrative construct becomes bound up in nationalism and all of the negative things that nearly always flow from that approach. Division, difference, intolerance, fear, aggression, it's obvious where it ultimately ends up and has done on so many occasions. Nationalism is a dangerous game and people should be very wary of it. Yeah we’re not really disagreeing here I think we’ve just been talking past each other somewhat. The administration you’re referring to is things like rule of law which preserve or maintain a our way of life isn’t it. When I’m talking about nationalism that’s basically what I’m trying to get at.
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Post by prettything on Jun 23, 2020 10:38:09 GMT
Thanks for looking those up. Those are the values of all Western democracies. We aren’t special there I’m afraid.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 10:42:13 GMT
Thanks for looking those up. Those are the values of all Western democracies. We aren’t special there I’m afraid. You’re right. Not everyone has those values though, some would say it’s not a wise idea to let people who don’t have those values into the country.
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Post by prettything on Jun 23, 2020 10:44:51 GMT
The BLM is only creating division to those people that are threatened or against it. It wasn’t set up to be divisive. Just for their voices to be listened to. It is an organisation that are standing up for the imbalance and injustice they have gone through, for years. For some reason, many are threatened by this . They have either linked or associated the looting, which has taken place along side these largely peaceful protests, or worse, assumed that the organisation are somehow conveying only black lives matter, which isn’t the case at all. However, I do have sympathy with many who criticise the UK protests. There are many working class white people in this country who are struggling at the bottom, and are rightly saying, “ we are struggling as well!”. Most of us, being from Stoke, growing up in a working class city such as ours, haven’t had the same opportunities as those living in other cities. (Mainly down south) It’s divide and conquer from the ruling classes. I hope we can empathise, even join forces, and deal with the imbalance together . Really? disrn.com/news/video-surfaces-of-black-lives-matter-founder-saying-were-trained-marxistsHow about one of the leaders of BLM saying they are trained Marxists? You also see the concept of ‘white privilege’ continually being pushed. This isn’t a useful concept and is only going to create further divisions. How about the video going around yesterday of white people enforcing a space where only people of colour can enter. Does that sound like a good idea? Shaun King demanding that all Western depictions of Jesus are removed/destroyed because it promotes white supremacy. I get the general aim of BLM is a noble one but there is so much of this other nonsense that comes with it. [/quote That’s a shocking website, pal. There are always going to be small anomalies with such a huge membership, with these being flagged up by the opposition to damage or taint the cause. I’m glad we can agree on its general aim being a positive.
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Post by prettything on Jun 23, 2020 10:47:06 GMT
Thanks for looking those up. Those are the values of all Western democracies. We aren’t special there I’m afraid. You’re right. Not everyone has those values though, some would say it’s not a wise idea to let people who don’t have those values into the country. I think there are plenty of people on this board who don’t respect these values, never mind people from over seas
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 10:48:55 GMT
Really? disrn.com/news/video-surfaces-of-black-lives-matter-founder-saying-were-trained-marxistsHow about one of the leaders of BLM saying they are trained Marxists? You also see the concept of ‘white privilege’ continually being pushed. This isn’t a useful concept and is only going to create further divisions. How about the video going around yesterday of white people enforcing a space where only people of colour can enter. Does that sound like a good idea? Shaun King demanding that all Western depictions of Jesus are removed/destroyed because it promotes white supremacy. I get the general aim of BLM is a noble one but there is so much of this other nonsense that comes with it. That’s a shocking website, pal. There are always going to be small anomalies with such a huge membership, with these being flagged up by the opposition to damage or taint the cause. I’m glad we can agree on its general aim being a positive. Having one of the leaders say they’re trained Marxists isn’t a small thing to be brushed aside because the overall cause is deemed to be a noble one though. Which is effectively what you’re doing. The people pushing the white privilege narrative aren’t just a small anomaly either.
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Post by prettything on Jun 23, 2020 11:05:46 GMT
That’s a shocking website, pal. There are always going to be small anomalies with such a huge membership, with these being flagged up by the opposition to damage or taint the cause. I’m glad we can agree on its general aim being a positive. Having one of the leaders say they’re trained Marxists isn’t a small thing to be brushed aside because the overall cause is deemed to be a noble one though. Which is effectively what you’re doing. The people pushing the white privilege narrative aren’t just a small anomaly either. I really don’t think it’s important and doesn’t take away from the overall movement. I celebrate what is happening at the moment and the issues that have been raised because of it. People can find whatever they like in movements this huge and find offence or concerns. I’m not one of those.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 11:20:44 GMT
Having one of the leaders say they’re trained Marxists isn’t a small thing to be brushed aside because the overall cause is deemed to be a noble one though. Which is effectively what you’re doing. The people pushing the white privilege narrative aren’t just a small anomaly either. I really don’t think it’s important and doesn’t take away from the overall movement. I celebrate what is happening at the moment and the issues that have been raised because of it. People can find whatever they like in movements this huge and find offence or concerns. I’m not one of those. Ok then. I disagree but I fear that we’re so far apart in our views that going into it would pretty much futile so I’ll leave it there.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 11:26:02 GMT
You’re right. Not everyone has those values though, some would say it’s not a wise idea to let people who don’t have those values into the country. I think there are plenty of people on this board who don’t respect these values, never mind people from over seas I wonder what could possibly go wrong with allowing more people into the country who don’t share our values ...... www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-isn-t-being-mentioned-about-the-reading-attack-victims-
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 23, 2020 11:30:22 GMT
I didn't say that. I was saying that countries are an artificial construct that have evolved, mainly, for ease of administration, and because of that they can come and go fairly easily. Various units of administration have evolved over the millennia. Currently we call them countries at an international level. There's really nothing special about them. I accept that they play a role in social cohesion, as do so many other levels of what is essentially tribalism, as I said on the institutional racism thread. What I don't like is where this concept of what is basically an administrative construct becomes bound up in nationalism and all of the negative things that nearly always flow from that approach. Division, difference, intolerance, fear, aggression, it's obvious where it ultimately ends up and has done on so many occasions. Nationalism is a dangerous game and people should be very wary of it. Yeah we’re not really disagreeing here I think we’ve just been talking past each other somewhat. The administration you’re referring to is things like rule of law which preserve or maintain a our way of life isn’t it. When I’m talking about nationalism that’s basically what I’m trying to get at. Fair enough.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 23, 2020 11:54:57 GMT
Oooh, the I Hate Muslims thread fanatics will be all over this post like bees around honey... Although he was a Christian apparently. Lots of Christians don't like gays, so maybe he wasn't quite such a bad fit for the country after all, although most anti-gay Christians don't go around stabbing people, they just don't bake them cakes or allow them in their guesthouses...
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Post by foster on Jun 23, 2020 12:28:26 GMT
Oooh, the I Hate Muslims thread fanatics will be all over this post like bees around honey... Although he was a Christian apparently. Lots of Christians don't like gays, so maybe he wasn't quite such a bad fit for the country after all, although most anti-gay Christians don't go around stabbing people, they just don't bake them cakes or allow them in their guesthouses... TBH, my initial thoughts were that this is going to get minimal attention because people are so preoccupied with BLM to look at the issues closer to home. All terrible acts, but you would think that the murder of 3 people at home would draw more attention than that of 1 person in the US. Whether they're black or white and gay shouldn't make a different. If this does transpire to be a homophobic hate crime, then let's hope the media and premier league footballers now make a stand (or kneel) for GLM, or better yet ALM.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 12:37:16 GMT
Oooh, the I Hate Muslims thread fanatics will be all over this post like bees around honey... Although he was a Christian apparently. Lots of Christians don't like gays, so maybe he wasn't quite such a bad fit for the country after all, although most anti-gay Christians don't go around stabbing people, they just don't bake them cakes or allow them in their guesthouses... These such discussions are pretty enlightening. I talk about nationalism as a shared identity for people that would otherwise be strangers. You quite correctly point out that nationalism and having such shared identities has caused a lot of issues between different nationalities. You can take the same logic and apply it to identity politics. I point out problems within the BLM movement and prettything tells me that it doesn’t concern him because they are small anomalies within a large movement. You can take the same logic and apply it to racism.
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Post by prettything on Jun 23, 2020 13:15:54 GMT
Oooh, the I Hate Muslims thread fanatics will be all over this post like bees around honey... Although he was a Christian apparently. Lots of Christians don't like gays, so maybe he wasn't quite such a bad fit for the country after all, although most anti-gay Christians don't go around stabbing people, they just don't bake them cakes or allow them in their guesthouses... These such discussions are pretty enlightening. I talk about nationalism as a shared identity for people that would otherwise be strangers. You quite correctly point out that nationalism and having such shared identities has caused a lot of issues between different nationalities. You can take the same logic and apply it to identity politics. I point out problems within the BLM movement and prettything tells me that it doesn’t concern him because they are small anomalies within a large movement. You can take the same logic and apply it to racism. The issue is, is that racism isn’t a small anomaly. It’s a massive issue, especially when racist people don’t think they are racist.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 23, 2020 13:33:23 GMT
Oooh, the I Hate Muslims thread fanatics will be all over this post like bees around honey... Although he was a Christian apparently. Lots of Christians don't like gays, so maybe he wasn't quite such a bad fit for the country after all, although most anti-gay Christians don't go around stabbing people, they just don't bake them cakes or allow them in their guesthouses... These such discussions are pretty enlightening. I talk about nationalism as a shared identity for people that would otherwise be strangers. You quite correctly point out that nationalism and having such shared identities has caused a lot of issues between different nationalities. You can take the same logic and apply it to identity politics. I point out problems within the BLM movement and prettything tells me that it doesn’t concern him because they are small anomalies within a large movement. You can take the same logic and apply it to racism. They'll still be strangers regardless of what aspect of nationalism might unify them permanently or temporarily, just like you and I are strangers despite sharing the 'nationalism' of both being on a Stoke messageboard, and presumably both cheering on our national side! I suspect I have a lot more in common with my German in-laws than I would do with many of the people on this board, despite most of us having a 'shared identity'. I suppose I should clarify and say it is the exploitation of division, with nationalism being a prime example, that I don't like whenever nationalism comes to the fore. It's nearly always used to 'demonise' another national identity or, more broadly, a race or religion, such as Islam or Judaism for example. And obviously very dangerous. It was prominent during the Brexit debate and you still see it frequently now, when the EU is described in words like 'tyranny', 'unreasonable', 'bullying', 'despotic' etc etc. It's just petty nationalism raising its ugly head again, probably through fear that Brexiteers are not going to get what they wanted and somebody needs to be blamed for not being able to deliver what was promised. Obviously not those who did the promising!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2020 13:34:52 GMT
These such discussions are pretty enlightening. I talk about nationalism as a shared identity for people that would otherwise be strangers. You quite correctly point out that nationalism and having such shared identities has caused a lot of issues between different nationalities. You can take the same logic and apply it to identity politics. I point out problems within the BLM movement and prettything tells me that it doesn’t concern him because they are small anomalies within a large movement. You can take the same logic and apply it to racism. The issue is, is that racism isn’t a small anomaly. It’s a massive issue, especially when racist people don’t think they are racist. This. People seem to think that you're only racist if you scream the n word in someone's face. There is a lot of humble introspection needed across the board, and I don't think many people want to do it.
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Post by Rednwhitenblue on Jun 23, 2020 13:39:05 GMT
The issue is, is that racism isn’t a small anomaly. It’s a massive issue, especially when racist people don’t think they are racist. This. People seem to think that you're only racist if you scream the n word in someone's face. There is a lot of humble introspection needed across the board, and I don't think many people want to do it. I'm not sure if it's that they don't want to necessarily, I think it's more that they don't think they need to. If you've grown up in a world which is basically designed to suit your colour/class/race/belief/whatever you'd take that completely for granted, wouldn't you. And you might not see that there is much of an issue for those who haven't.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 13:41:45 GMT
These such discussions are pretty enlightening. I talk about nationalism as a shared identity for people that would otherwise be strangers. You quite correctly point out that nationalism and having such shared identities has caused a lot of issues between different nationalities. You can take the same logic and apply it to identity politics. I point out problems within the BLM movement and prettything tells me that it doesn’t concern him because they are small anomalies within a large movement. You can take the same logic and apply it to racism. The issue is, is that racism isn’t a small anomaly. It’s a massive issue, especially when racist people don’t think they are racist. It’s interesting that I don’t think the issues within the BLM are small anomalies but you do, and you don’t think racism is a small anomaly but I do .....
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 13:45:02 GMT
The issue is, is that racism isn’t a small anomaly. It’s a massive issue, especially when racist people don’t think they are racist. This. People seem to think that you're only racist if you scream the n word in someone's face. There is a lot of humble introspection needed across the board, and I don't think many people want to do it. White privilege and identity politics is just rank bad theory in my opinion that is only going to deepen and make divisions worse. We’re actually going backwards because of it. And no I don’t require any introspection.
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Post by prettything on Jun 23, 2020 13:47:23 GMT
The issue is, is that racism isn’t a small anomaly. It’s a massive issue, especially when racist people don’t think they are racist. It’s interesting that I don’t think the issues within the BLM are small anomalies but you do, and you don’t think racism is a small anomaly but I do ..... I certainly don’t think one of the BLM members having a Marxist ideology compared to the change they are bringing is important or game changing.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 13:48:22 GMT
These such discussions are pretty enlightening. I talk about nationalism as a shared identity for people that would otherwise be strangers. You quite correctly point out that nationalism and having such shared identities has caused a lot of issues between different nationalities. You can take the same logic and apply it to identity politics. I point out problems within the BLM movement and prettything tells me that it doesn’t concern him because they are small anomalies within a large movement. You can take the same logic and apply it to racism. They'll still be strangers regardless of what aspect of nationalism might unify them permanently or temporarily, just like you and I are strangers despite sharing the 'nationalism' of both being on a Stoke messageboard, and presumably both cheering on our national side! I suspect I have a lot more in common with my German in-laws than I would do with many of the people on this board, despite most of us having a 'shared identity'. I suppose I should clarify and say it is the exploitation of division, with nationalism being a prime example, that I don't like whenever nationalism comes to the fore. It's nearly always used to 'demonise' another national identity or, more broadly, a race or religion, such as Islam or Judaism for example. And obviously very dangerous. It was prominent during the Brexit debate and you still see it frequently now, when the EU is described in words like 'tyranny', 'unreasonable', 'bullying', 'despotic' etc etc. It's just petty nationalism raising its ugly head again, probably through fear that Brexiteers are not going to get what they wanted and somebody needs to be blamed for not being able to deliver what was promised. Obviously not those who did the promising! With the odd word change your second paragraph would just as easily apply to identity politics.
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 23, 2020 13:54:16 GMT
It’s interesting that I don’t think the issues within the BLM are small anomalies but you do, and you don’t think racism is a small anomaly but I do ..... I certainly don’t think one of the BLM members having a Marxist ideology compared to the change they are bringing is important or game changing. You wouldn’t ....
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Post by prettything on Jun 23, 2020 14:01:40 GMT
It reminds me of how many of the older generation labelled the anti Vietnam protesters as hippies and commies.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Jun 29, 2020 18:32:08 GMT
Labour seem destined to keep repeating the same mistakes in my opinion. They have managed to resurrect the Jewish issue.
Now they somehow have contrived to make the BLM issue a reson to tear themselves in half.
Plus the fight for the soul of the party goes on...." it isn't really the left"....presumably Corbyn was and that didn't end well.
People won't vote positively for a divided indecisive party....I suppose that they are relying on the Tories to make a complete cock up or the public wanting a change , for change's sake.
I don't say this just to " get at Labour". I just can't see where they go from here, but I suppose it is early days for Starmer.
What is the answer
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Post by Rick Grimes on Jun 29, 2020 18:52:21 GMT
Labour seem destined to keep repeating the same mistakes in my opinion. They have managed to resurrect the Jewish issue. Now they somehow have contrived to make the BLM issue a reson to tear themselves in half. Plus the fight for the soul of the party goes on...." it isn't really the left"....presumably Corbyn was and that didn't end well. People won't vote positively for a divided indecisive party....I suppose that they are relying on the Tories to make a complete cock up or the public wanting a change , for change's sake. I don't say this just to " get at Labour". I just can't see where they go from here, but I suppose it is early days for Starmer. What is the answer They make things up as they go along ....
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Post by PotterLog on Jun 29, 2020 19:55:39 GMT
Labour seem destined to keep repeating the same mistakes in my opinion. They have managed to resurrect the Jewish issue. Now they somehow have contrived to make the BLM issue a reson to tear themselves in half. Plus the fight for the soul of the party goes on...." it isn't really the left"....presumably Corbyn was and that didn't end well. People won't vote positively for a divided indecisive party....I suppose that they are relying on the Tories to make a complete cock up or the public wanting a change , for change's sake. I don't say this just to " get at Labour". I just can't see where they go from here, but I suppose it is early days for Starmer. What is the answer Fuxake. State of that thread. Fucking morons
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