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Post by PotterLog on Mar 6, 2020 2:13:06 GMT
The Jewish Labour Movement filled multiple pages with examples in their statement to the EHRC, you could start there Actually at the moment it's a lot of unevidenced accusation until the full report is published in its full context. But I'll look forward to seeing the report in its entirety..... Yes the last thing we on the left would want to do is go believing minorities and their whining about racism eh.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 7:45:02 GMT
Actually at the moment it's a lot of unevidenced accusation until the full report is published in its full context. But I'll look forward to seeing the report in its entirety..... Yes the last thing we on the left would want to do is go believing minorities and their whining about racism eh. Just stop with the hysterics and wait for the findings is my advice. Some of those statements you talk about have already been discredited: So forgive me for wanting to see the complete report in full context.....
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Post by followyoudown on Mar 6, 2020 8:23:58 GMT
Yes the last thing we on the left would want to do is go believing minorities and their whining about racism eh. Just stop with the hysterics and wait for the findings is my advice. Some of those statements you talk about have already been discredited: So forgive me for wanting to see the complete report in full context..... Bastani and Novorra media were at the forefront of antisemitism denial some minor reports are ruled against and that is used as some evidence of claims being made up, meanwhile the much briefed ipso complaints about the wreath and panaroma were never actually made instead the labour party so concerned about bullying now was actively briefing against its own whistleblowers before the program aired or had been shown. Even when the report is published the believers wont accept it I am sure the involvement of a tory or a jewish person can be found it to try and delegitimise it but all you need to know about Labour is that things were so bad that the 23 year old daughter of one of corbyns close aides was made head of disputes despite having no previous experience the only purpose being to smooth the process for racist grandpa and his mates and give them even more of a veto.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 8:30:04 GMT
Just stop with the hysterics and wait for the findings is my advice. Some of those statements you talk about have already been discredited: So forgive me for wanting to see the complete report in full context..... Bastani and Novorra media were at the forefront of antisemitism denial some minor reports are ruled against and that is used as some evidence of claims being made up, meanwhile the much briefed ipso complaints about the wreath and panaroma were never actually made instead the labour party so concerned about bullying now was actively briefing against its own whistleblowers before the program aired or had been shown. Even when the report is published the believers wont accept it I am sure the involvement of a tory or a jewish person can be found it to try and delegitimise it but all you need to know about Labour is that things were so bad that the 23 year old daughter of one of corbyns close aides was made head of disputes despite having no previous experience the only purpose being to smooth the process for racist grandpa and his mates and give them even more of a veto. I think you’re confusing “antisemitism denial” with “denial of an antisemitic crisis” which are of course two completely different things. With respect the rest of your post is just baseless waffle......
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Post by followyoudown on Mar 6, 2020 9:14:53 GMT
Bastani and Novorra media were at the forefront of antisemitism denial some minor reports are ruled against and that is used as some evidence of claims being made up, meanwhile the much briefed ipso complaints about the wreath and panaroma were never actually made instead the labour party so concerned about bullying now was actively briefing against its own whistleblowers before the program aired or had been shown. Even when the report is published the believers wont accept it I am sure the involvement of a tory or a jewish person can be found it to try and delegitimise it but all you need to know about Labour is that things were so bad that the 23 year old daughter of one of corbyns close aides was made head of disputes despite having no previous experience the only purpose being to smooth the process for racist grandpa and his mates and give them even more of a veto. I think you’re confusing “antisemitism denial” with “denial of an antisemitic crisis” which are of course two completely different things. With respect the rest of your post is just baseless waffle...... Nope they were at the forefront of denial, there is no antisemitism, its only a small % they followed every discredited line. When the report comes out with the conclusion the labour party is institutionally racist and the whistleblowers start to sue it wont be such baseless waffle.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 9:26:26 GMT
I think you’re confusing “antisemitism denial” with “denial of an antisemitic crisis” which are of course two completely different things. With respect the rest of your post is just baseless waffle...... Nope they were at the forefront of denial, there is no antisemitism, its only a small % they followed every discredited line. When the report comes out with the conclusion the labour party is institutionally racist and the whistleblowers start to sue it wont be such baseless waffle. It is a small percentage. That's just obvious. You mean like the whistleblowers from the Liverpool Riverside CLP, who along with the Jewish Chronicle smeared and lied against CLP members to accuse them of bullying and antisemitism against Louise Ellman? And have since had to apologise and pay damages for their actions........
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Post by followyoudown on Mar 6, 2020 11:46:20 GMT
Nope they were at the forefront of denial, there is no antisemitism, its only a small % they followed every discredited line. When the report comes out with the conclusion the labour party is institutionally racist and the whistleblowers start to sue it wont be such baseless waffle. It is a small percentage. That's just obvious. You mean like the whistleblowers from the Liverpool Riverside CLP, who along with the Jewish Chronicle smeared and lied against CLP members to accuse them of bullying and antisemitism against Louise Ellman? And have since had to apologise and pay damages for their actions........ Any other minority group complains Labour would have dealt with it in nanoseconds instead you have the official line from people in control of the processes that there is none, then its the processes need overhauling, then its the its only a small % so stop complaining line. Labour will rightly be found to be institutionally racist.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 12:02:30 GMT
It is a small percentage. That's just obvious. You mean like the whistleblowers from the Liverpool Riverside CLP, who along with the Jewish Chronicle smeared and lied against CLP members to accuse them of bullying and antisemitism against Louise Ellman? And have since had to apologise and pay damages for their actions........ Any other minority group complains Labour would have dealt with it in nanoseconds instead you have the official line from people in control of the processes that there is none, then its the processes need overhauling, then its the its only a small % so stop complaining line. Labour will rightly be found to be institutionally racist. You keep repeating the same lines parrot fashion, whilst ignoring the fact that I've already highlighted an incident where the so called whistle blowers have proved to be lying, along with a major Jewish newspaper. So I'll wait for the full report and its findings rather than just vent.......
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Post by Northy on Mar 6, 2020 13:15:28 GMT
Never mind the future of the left, the actual right is on here, in all it's full technicolor glory today. Pretty filthy it is as well. So that's anybody slightly right of your thoughts then. The kinder gentler politics has bypassed you then sheiky.
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Post by foster on Mar 6, 2020 13:40:48 GMT
Never mind the future of the left, the actual right is on here, in all it's full technicolor glory today. Pretty filthy it is as well. So that's anybody slightly right of your thoughts then. The kinder gentler politics has bypassed you then sheiky. All this left and right labeling bollocks is tedious. When did it start because I'm sure it wasn't like this when I first joined this forum.
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 6, 2020 13:48:21 GMT
Never mind the future of the left, the actual right is on here, in all it's full technicolor glory today. Pretty filthy it is as well. So that's anybody slightly right of your thoughts then. The kinder gentler politics has bypassed you then sheiky. If you deny Yaxley Lennon is a racist you are either thick or racist yourself and most likely both.
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Post by Northy on Mar 6, 2020 13:50:18 GMT
So that's anybody slightly right of your thoughts then. The kinder gentler politics has bypassed you then sheiky. If you deny Yaxley Lennon is a racist you are either thick or racist yourself and most likely both. I haven't mentioned him
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Post by Northy on Mar 6, 2020 13:51:25 GMT
So that's anybody slightly right of your thoughts then. The kinder gentler politics has bypassed you then sheiky. All this left and right labeling bollocks is tedious. When did it start because I'm sure it wasn't like this when I first joined this forum. Seemed to get more prevalent with Antifa, that group who won't accept anybody else's opinion but their own
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Post by sheikhmomo on Mar 6, 2020 13:58:05 GMT
If you deny Yaxley Lennon is a racist you are either thick or racist yourself and most likely both. I haven't mentioned him But you quoted a post that was referring to that.
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Post by foster on Mar 6, 2020 13:59:14 GMT
If you deny Yaxley Lennon is a racist you are either thick or racist yourself and most likely both. I haven't mentioned him So you do deny it!! Blasphemer!!
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Post by Northy on Mar 6, 2020 14:02:27 GMT
But you quoted a post that was referring to that. How was I to know that a single post on it's own, not quoting anything, and on a page that the latest posts were about Jewish issues was on about SYL, apologies if my crystal ball wasn't quite shining enough to see it.
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Post by foster on Mar 6, 2020 14:06:36 GMT
But you quoted a post that was referring to that. How was I to know that a single post on it's own, not quoting anything, and on a page that the latest posts were about Jewish issues was on about SYL, apologies if my crystal ball wasn't quite shining enough to see it. A-Ha!!! So how do you explain this!! Total and utter sacrilege if ever I've seen it. 'Mmmm, Tommy Robinson...I wish it was Tommy Nob-in-my-bum hee hee. I want his babies!'
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Post by Northy on Mar 6, 2020 14:29:59 GMT
How was I to know that a single post on it's own, not quoting anything, and on a page that the latest posts were about Jewish issues was on about SYL, apologies if my crystal ball wasn't quite shining enough to see it. A-Ha!!! So how do you explain this!! Total and utter sacrilege if ever I've seen it. 'Mmmm, Tommy Robinson...I wish it was Tommy Nob-in-my-bum hee hee. I want his babies!' Guilty m'lord, I duz likes im i duz
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Post by PotterLog on Mar 6, 2020 16:11:31 GMT
Yes the last thing we on the left would want to do is go believing minorities and their whining about racism eh. Just stop with the hysterics and wait for the findings is my advice. Some of those statements you talk about have already been discredited: So forgive me for wanting to see the complete report in full context..... I'm not sure why you're talking about this report as if it's going to contain some great uncovering of hitherto-unknown information with the capacity to exonerate (or indeed convict) the Labour Party that we should be rubbing our hands waiting for to see if we were right or wrong. The mountain of evidence is out there. It's on video, it's recorded in articles and tweets and news reports and members' own words. The Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn has a serious, inadequately addressed problem with antisemitism, as all the prospective candidates and I think even he himself have conceded. Whether the EHRC conclude that there is enough in their findings to meet their criteria for describing it an institutionally racist organisation will throw more light, but it won't change anything that has already been observed and recorded. Your treatment of any opinions about the party's problem as simply "hysteria", as if it's all just speculation until this particular report comes out, is telling in itself. I'm afraid you're in denial (and my suspicion is that you still will be even if the report is as damning as it could possibly be).
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 16:24:00 GMT
Just stop with the hysterics and wait for the findings is my advice. Some of those statements you talk about have already been discredited: So forgive me for wanting to see the complete report in full context..... I'm not sure why you're talking about this report as if it's going to contain some great uncovering of hitherto-unknown information with the capacity to exonerate (or indeed convict) the Labour Party that we should be rubbing our hands waiting for to see if we were right or wrong. The mountain of evidence is out there. It's on video, it's recorded in articles and tweets and news reports and members' own words. The Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn has a serious, inadequately addressed problem with antisemitism, as all the prospective candidates and I think even he himself have conceded. Whether the EHRC conclude that there is enough in their findings to meet their criteria for describing it an institutionally racist organisation will throw more light, but it won't change anything that has already been observed and recorded. Your treatment of any opinions about the party's problem as simply "hysteria", as if it's all just speculation until this particular report comes out, is telling in itself. I'm afraid you're in denial (and my suspicion is that you still will be even if the report is as damning as it could possibly be). The report will focus mainly on processes and procedures. This "mountain" of evidence you talk about equates to around 0.06% members of the Labour Party. You can keep try to sensationalise it all day long, but it's a drop in the ocean albeit a disease that needs to be rid of. I'm most certainly not in denial, antisemitism exists in the Labour Party like it exists everywhere. And quite frankly what you do or don't think is telling doesn't bother me one iota.........
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Post by PotterLog on Mar 6, 2020 16:54:53 GMT
I'm not sure why you're talking about this report as if it's going to contain some great uncovering of hitherto-unknown information with the capacity to exonerate (or indeed convict) the Labour Party that we should be rubbing our hands waiting for to see if we were right or wrong. The mountain of evidence is out there. It's on video, it's recorded in articles and tweets and news reports and members' own words. The Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn has a serious, inadequately addressed problem with antisemitism, as all the prospective candidates and I think even he himself have conceded. Whether the EHRC conclude that there is enough in their findings to meet their criteria for describing it an institutionally racist organisation will throw more light, but it won't change anything that has already been observed and recorded. Your treatment of any opinions about the party's problem as simply "hysteria", as if it's all just speculation until this particular report comes out, is telling in itself. I'm afraid you're in denial (and my suspicion is that you still will be even if the report is as damning as it could possibly be). The report will focus mainly on processes and procedures. This "mountain" of evidence you talk about equates to around 0.06% members of the Labour Party. You can keep try to sensationalise it all day long, but it's a drop in the ocean albeit a disease that needs to be rid of. I'm most certainly not in denial, antisemitism exists in the Labour Party like it exists everywhere. And quite frankly what you do or don't think is telling doesn't bother me one iota......... “0.06%” “Like it exists everywhere” Denial. I feel we might have been here before....
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 17:08:47 GMT
The report will focus mainly on processes and procedures. This "mountain" of evidence you talk about equates to around 0.06% members of the Labour Party. You can keep try to sensationalise it all day long, but it's a drop in the ocean albeit a disease that needs to be rid of. I'm most certainly not in denial, antisemitism exists in the Labour Party like it exists everywhere. And quite frankly what you do or don't think is telling doesn't bother me one iota......... “0.06%” “Like it exists everywhere” Denial. I feel we might have been here before.... You saying denial over and over doesn't change anything. If you have any facts to show me as a counter hit me with them. If you don't think bigotry, racism, antisemitism exists in all walks of society then you live in a Utopia........
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Post by PotterLog on Mar 6, 2020 19:08:02 GMT
“0.06%” “Like it exists everywhere” Denial. I feel we might have been here before.... You saying denial over and over doesn't change anything. If you have any facts to show me as a counter hit me with them. If you don't think bigotry, racism, antisemitism exists in all walks of society then you live in a Utopia........ yeah that's definitely what I meant... We've been through this all before on the Corbyn thread mate. The way this is likely to play out is I'll provide links to dozens or hundreds of examples, you'll pick out a couple that you find to be questionable, focus on them and ignore the rest, or dismiss them, or say the statistics are flawed, or claim it's just reflective of the population as a whole, or question the veracity/credibility or the source/methodology, or say it's the same in the Conservative party, or point to an occasion of inaccurate reporting, or........ .......let's face it, nothing I provide is going to be met with "hey you know you're right, it looks like there really is an endemic, widespread problem here" is it. You could give me an idea of what sort of thing it would take for you to say that I guess, in terms of the facts you're requesting.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2020 20:13:57 GMT
You saying denial over and over doesn't change anything. If you have any facts to show me as a counter hit me with them. If you don't think bigotry, racism, antisemitism exists in all walks of society then you live in a Utopia........ yeah that's definitely what I meant... We've been through this all before on the Corbyn thread mate. The way this is likely to play out is I'll provide links to dozens or hundreds of examples, you'll pick out a couple that you find to be questionable, focus on them and ignore the rest, or dismiss them, or say the statistics are flawed, or claim it's just reflective of the population as a whole, or question the veracity/credibility or the source/methodology, or say it's the same in the Conservative party, or point to an occasion of inaccurate reporting, or........ .......let's face it, nothing I provide is going to be met with "hey you know you're right, it looks like there really is an endemic, widespread problem here" is it. You could give me an idea of what sort of thing it would take for you to say that I guess, in terms of the facts you're requesting. Just actual bona fide examples of antisemitism, that would do nicely. And the people responsible for them should be dealt with accordingly. Not the Margaret Hodge approach of sending 200 examples of antisemitism in the Labour Party where 180 of them were ruled out for not being antisemitic or for having nothing to do with Labour members. Which clogs up the process, and leads to her criticising the speed of the process.......
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Post by vokeswagen on Mar 6, 2020 20:18:31 GMT
Bastani and Novorra media were at the forefront of antisemitism denial some minor reports are ruled against and that is used as some evidence of claims being made up, meanwhile the much briefed ipso complaints about the wreath and panaroma were never actually made instead the labour party so concerned about bullying now was actively briefing against its own whistleblowers before the program aired or had been shown. Even when the report is published the believers wont accept it I am sure the involvement of a tory or a jewish person can be found it to try and delegitimise it but all you need to know about Labour is that things were so bad that the 23 year old daughter of one of corbyns close aides was made head of disputes despite having no previous experience the only purpose being to smooth the process for racist grandpa and his mates and give them even more of a veto. I think you’re confusing “antisemitism denial” with “denial of an antisemitic crisis” which are of course two completely different things. With respect the rest of your post is just baseless waffle...... "Baseless waffle" - the fyd M.O.
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Post by PotterLog on Mar 7, 2020 4:59:45 GMT
yeah that's definitely what I meant... We've been through this all before on the Corbyn thread mate. The way this is likely to play out is I'll provide links to dozens or hundreds of examples, you'll pick out a couple that you find to be questionable, focus on them and ignore the rest, or dismiss them, or say the statistics are flawed, or claim it's just reflective of the population as a whole, or question the veracity/credibility or the source/methodology, or say it's the same in the Conservative party, or point to an occasion of inaccurate reporting, or........ .......let's face it, nothing I provide is going to be met with "hey you know you're right, it looks like there really is an endemic, widespread problem here" is it. You could give me an idea of what sort of thing it would take for you to say that I guess, in terms of the facts you're requesting. Just actual bona fide examples of antisemitism, that would do nicely. And the people responsible for them should be dealt with accordingly. . That’s it? I mean that’s obviously very easy as you’ve already conceded there are examples of antisemitism (your 0.00006% or whatever) which I presume you consider to be “bona fide”. I’m asking what it would take for you to consider that the party has an endemic problem with antisemitism. To give a random hypothetical example, and just as a start, let’s say the leader of said party had a decades-long record of befriending, endorsing and elevating holocaust deniers, anti-Jew conspiracy theorists and Islamist extremists. Might that make you wonder if maybe there’s a bit of a top-down problem? Just tossing ideas out. (And admittedly stalling a bit because I have an ominous feeling that at some point I’m going to plough hours of my time into re-researching all this and it will be a complete waste of time because no matter what I say you’ll find any reason you can to deflect, deny, or dismiss. In fact I’ve already wasted enough time on this post. Ha! Night.)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2020 12:23:36 GMT
Just actual bona fide examples of antisemitism, that would do nicely. And the people responsible for them should be dealt with accordingly. . That’s it? I mean that’s obviously very easy as you’ve already conceded there are examples of antisemitism (your 0.00006% or whatever) which I presume you consider to be “bona fide”. I’m asking what it would take for you to consider that the party has an endemic problem with antisemitism. To give a random hypothetical example, and just as a start, let’s say the leader of said party had a decades-long record of befriending, endorsing and elevating holocaust deniers, anti-Jew conspiracy theorists and Islamist extremists. Might that make you wonder if maybe there’s a bit of a top-down problem? Just tossing ideas out. (And admittedly stalling a bit because I have an ominous feeling that at some point I’m going to plough hours of my time into re-researching all this and it will be a complete waste of time because no matter what I say you’ll find any reason you can to deflect, deny, or dismiss. In fact I’ve already wasted enough time on this post. Ha! Night.) Whilst I don’t recognise your description of said leader, what if said leader had a history of fighting racism, with clear and concise examples of him fighting antisemitism both out on the streets, and in parliament (his record is there for all to see). Because mentioning one and not the other wouldn’t be balanced now would it? So to repeat myself, to recognise and endemic with antisemitism I would need to see a lot more evidence, not random tweets from people who may not even have anything to do with the Labour Party, not half truths about Corbyn, not stitch ups like the Jewish Chronicle printing lies about Louise Ellman being bullied and abused for being Jewish. I’m not sure I can add anymore to this, I‘ve been fairly consistent with my stance. And I have several Jewish friends/colleagues who absolutely agree with me, they are part of the “fringes” that the BOD would like to silence as they’re “the wrong type of Jew”. I also for the record have several friends/colleagues who wouldn’t piss on Corbyn if he was on fire, that’s life......
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Post by PotterLog on Mar 7, 2020 14:12:26 GMT
That’s it? I mean that’s obviously very easy as you’ve already conceded there are examples of antisemitism (your 0.00006% or whatever) which I presume you consider to be “bona fide”. I’m asking what it would take for you to consider that the party has an endemic problem with antisemitism. To give a random hypothetical example, and just as a start, let’s say the leader of said party had a decades-long record of befriending, endorsing and elevating holocaust deniers, anti-Jew conspiracy theorists and Islamist extremists. Might that make you wonder if maybe there’s a bit of a top-down problem? Just tossing ideas out. (And admittedly stalling a bit because I have an ominous feeling that at some point I’m going to plough hours of my time into re-researching all this and it will be a complete waste of time because no matter what I say you’ll find any reason you can to deflect, deny, or dismiss. In fact I’ve already wasted enough time on this post. Ha! Night.) Whilst I don’t recognise your description of said leader, what if said leader had a history of fighting racism, with clear and concise examples of him fighting antisemitism both out on the streets, and in parliament (his record is there for all to see). Because mentioning one and not the other wouldn’t be balanced now would it? So to repeat myself, to recognise and endemic with antisemitism I would need to see a lot more evidence, not random tweets from people who may not even have anything to do with the Labour Party, not half truths about Corbyn, not stitch ups like the Jewish Chronicle printing lies about Louise Ellman being bullied and abused for being Jewish. I’m not sure I can add anymore to this, I‘ve been fairly consistent with my stance. And I have several Jewish friends/colleagues who absolutely agree with me, they are part of the “fringes” that the BOD would like to silence as they’re “the wrong type of Jew”. I also for the record have several friends/colleagues who wouldn’t piss on Corbyn if he was on fire, that’s life...... I know what you’re doing. You’re coming across all reasonable and making me think that maybe, if I compile the evidence and present it in the starkest and clearest way possible, there’s a chance you’ll be open-minded and persuadable and the hours I spend doing it won’t be a complete waste of my time. I won’t fall into your trap!
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Post by starkiller on Mar 7, 2020 17:27:02 GMT
Identity politics and its obsessives have destroyed the real left.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2020 19:47:32 GMT
Whilst I don’t recognise your description of said leader, what if said leader had a history of fighting racism, with clear and concise examples of him fighting antisemitism both out on the streets, and in parliament (his record is there for all to see). Because mentioning one and not the other wouldn’t be balanced now would it? So to repeat myself, to recognise and endemic with antisemitism I would need to see a lot more evidence, not random tweets from people who may not even have anything to do with the Labour Party, not half truths about Corbyn, not stitch ups like the Jewish Chronicle printing lies about Louise Ellman being bullied and abused for being Jewish. I’m not sure I can add anymore to this, I‘ve been fairly consistent with my stance. And I have several Jewish friends/colleagues who absolutely agree with me, they are part of the “fringes” that the BOD would like to silence as they’re “the wrong type of Jew”. I also for the record have several friends/colleagues who wouldn’t piss on Corbyn if he was on fire, that’s life...... I know what you’re doing. You’re coming across all reasonable and making me think that maybe, if I compile the evidence and present it in the starkest and clearest way possible, there’s a chance you’ll be open-minded and persuadable and the hours I spend doing it won’t be a complete waste of my time. I won’t fall into your trap! Just enjoy the 5-1 victory, we can save this for another day.....
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