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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Feb 18, 2020 0:11:21 GMT
Only another 46 days to go.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Feb 18, 2020 4:57:26 GMT
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Post by Eggybread on Feb 18, 2020 7:00:18 GMT
crapslinger said: "I stand corrected why has it gone so wrong for socialism in the UK ? though I await to see the actual results of this socialist upsurge in the states." How has socialism gone wrong in the UK?When was the last time it was given a chance?
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 18, 2020 7:41:59 GMT
crapslinger said: "I stand corrected why has it gone so wrong for socialism in the UK ? though I await to see the actual results of this socialist upsurge in the states." How has socialism gone wrong in the UK?When was the last time it was given a chance? The winter of 78/79
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Post by wagsastokie on Feb 18, 2020 7:48:59 GMT
crapslinger said: "I stand corrected why has it gone so wrong for socialism in the UK ? though I await to see the actual results of this socialist upsurge in the states." How has socialism gone wrong in the UK?When was the last time it was given a chance? Socialism only becomes popular when a fair majority of people have piss all When the majority has a little they become shit scared socialists will take it As for the US there is only one socialist and that's sanders The democrates are doing every thing they can to stop him because they know if he is there candidate trump wins a landslide
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Post by Eggybread on Feb 18, 2020 7:50:16 GMT
crapslinger said: "I stand corrected why has it gone so wrong for socialism in the UK ? though I await to see the actual results of this socialist upsurge in the states." How has socialism gone wrong in the UK?When was the last time it was given a chance? The winter of 78/79 And that was all Labours fault was it?And on the basis of 18 months this proves that socialism has gone wrong. Well in my opinion the city and country now after 40 years of non socialism is an absolute disgrace and is ten times worse now than what is was in 78/79.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 18, 2020 7:52:24 GMT
And that was all Labours fault was it?And on the basis of 18 months this proves that socialism has gone wrong. Well in my opinion the city and country now after 40 years of non socialism is an absolute disgrace and is ten times worse now than what is was in 78/79. What City London
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Post by Eggybread on Feb 18, 2020 7:54:49 GMT
And that was all Labours fault was it?And on the basis of 18 months this proves that socialism has gone wrong. Well in my opinion the city and country now after 40 years of non socialism is an absolute disgrace and is ten times worse now than what is was in 78/79. What City London Yeah
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Feb 18, 2020 7:58:37 GMT
You're embodying the view that socialism is for people that think like you to decide it's modern definition. The working class have not become Tories, they just identify themselves less with the direction of the Labour Party than they do with the Tories. This comes down to the fundamentals of what your party is about, and the low paid people that you should be representing. The working class see a party arguing over things that are of zero concern to them. The Labour Party should start to listen to the people they say they represent and start to represent them again in a way they can understand. It's right that minority interests should be listened to and respected, but Labour has become the party for the few instead of the many. I never said they've become tories. And I think the Labour Party are largely working for the same fundamentals, but they are worse at getting that over to the masses. I agree with the understand part, Labour have been awful compared with the Tories at getting their view across as reasonable and useful. I don't know how they solve it, because I do not feel like my views reflect the popular view of the UK currently, so it's difficult for me to pick based on who might do well in a GE. That's my original point about the leadership contest anyway. You're in turmoil because you think your views should be in tune with the working classes, whereas the current Labour Party has shifted so far to the left that it has alienated the working class. You genuinely think you know better and you can't understand why ordinary people have abandoned the party that was created for working people and the poor. The Labour Party serves itself, and not "The People" and if it continues down its current path, it will become a political faction and nothing more. The working class is not the property of the Labour Party and if it wants represent them, then it needs to resemble the values of ordinary people instead of telling them what to think and do.
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 18, 2020 7:59:12 GMT
And that was all Labours fault was it?And on the basis of 18 months this proves that socialism has gone wrong. Well in my opinion the city and country now after 40 years of non socialism is an absolute disgrace and is ten times worse now than what is was in 78/79. 78/79 was when the ongoing post war socialist experiment in the UK died after a long painful sickness throughout the 70’s. We weren’t known (and ridiculed) as the sick man of Europe for nothing. It had even died inside Labour as Healy initiated changes (or tried to) in economic policy that Thatcher continued - namely a focus on controlling inflation as the primary purpose of Government economic policy. As to today being worse than 78/79, you are either delusional or stupid. Quite possibly both.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 18, 2020 8:01:48 GMT
What City London Yeah Khan
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Post by felonious on Feb 18, 2020 8:09:19 GMT
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Post by Eggybread on Feb 18, 2020 8:26:34 GMT
And that was all Labours fault was it?And on the basis of 18 months this proves that socialism has gone wrong. Well in my opinion the city and country now after 40 years of non socialism is an absolute disgrace and is ten times worse now than what is was in 78/79. 78/79 was when the ongoing post war socialist experiment in the UK died after a long painful sickness throughout the 70’s. We weren’t known (and ridiculed) as the sick man of Europe for nothing. It had even died inside Labour as Healy initiated changes (or tried to) in economic policy that Thatcher continued - namely a focus on controlling inflation as the primary purpose of Government economic policy. As to today being worse than 78/79, you are either delusional or stupid. Quite possibly both. Lose another argument and insult yet again.Its amazing that people think they can just roll off insults to people when they are online but wouldnt say anything in the real world.So sad and pathetic. Anyway blocked.
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Feb 18, 2020 8:32:36 GMT
I think that Trump/ Brexit has hailed a "new dawn" that it does not even recognise fully itself( some will say that it is reverting to a past age, regressing...I don't know about that, a different debate)....the old categories don't fully fit....its not left / right, far right/ far left,Socialism ( Long Bailey fighting a past battle), Capitalism, etc .Really in my opinion.....it is pragmatism.... Boris and Trump want to make any decision they like in , what they believe is the best interest of the country ( and their best interest), without being confined by a previous ideology.....some nightfall them astute, others mavericks..Possibly just like anyone would in making decisions for their family or their business.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Feb 18, 2020 8:48:38 GMT
I think that Trump/ Brexit has hailed a "new dawn" that it does not even recognise fully itself( some will say that it is reverting to a past age, regressing...I don't know about that, a different debate)....the old categories don't fully fit....its not left / right, far right/ far left,Socialism ( Long Bailey fighting a past battle), Capitalism, etc .Really in my opinion.....it is pragmatism.... Boris and Trump want to make any decision they like in , what they believe is the best interest of the country ( and their best interest), without being confined by a previous ideology.....some nightfall them astute, others mavericks..Possibly just like anyone would in making decisions for their family or their business. Pragmatism is a dirty word as it signals compromise and acceptance of inequality. Its right to fight for ideals as they eventually lead to positive change, but social media bubbles give people within them the thought that their "correct" point of view is within a whisker of becoming mainstream. The sad reality is that many well meaning thought processes are simply way ahead of society as a whole and will need a generational shift to have a chance of being implemented. Labour need to wake up and realise that Boris is going to pull the rug from beneath them unless they embrace pragmatism instead of utopia.
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Post by partickpotter on Feb 18, 2020 9:22:57 GMT
78/79 was when the ongoing post war socialist experiment in the UK died after a long painful sickness throughout the 70’s. We weren’t known (and ridiculed) as the sick man of Europe for nothing. It had even died inside Labour as Healy initiated changes (or tried to) in economic policy that Thatcher continued - namely a focus on controlling inflation as the primary purpose of Government economic policy. As to today being worse than 78/79, you are either delusional or stupid. Quite possibly both. Lose another argument and insult yet again.Its amazing that people think they can just roll off insults to people when they are online but wouldnt say anything in the real world.So sad and pathetic. Anyway blocked.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Feb 18, 2020 9:30:22 GMT
In terms of growth, increased social mobility and decreased inequality weren't best years of this country created by Keynsianism and a mixed economy? Pragmatically speaking.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 18, 2020 11:08:41 GMT
78/79 was when the ongoing post war socialist experiment in the UK died after a long painful sickness throughout the 70’s. We weren’t known (and ridiculed) as the sick man of Europe for nothing. It had even died inside Labour as Healy initiated changes (or tried to) in economic policy that Thatcher continued - namely a focus on controlling inflation as the primary purpose of Government economic policy. As to today being worse than 78/79, you are either delusional or stupid. Quite possibly both. Lose another argument and insult yet again.Its amazing that people think they can just roll off insults to people when they are online but wouldnt say anything in the real world.So sad and pathetic. Anyway blocked. That will teach em ner ner ner ner not that you have ever insulted anyone on here hypocrite.
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Post by Eggybread on Feb 18, 2020 11:20:24 GMT
Lose another argument and insult yet again.Its amazing that people think they can just roll off insults to people when they are online but wouldnt say anything in the real world.So sad and pathetic. Anyway blocked. That will teach em ner ner ner ner not that you have ever insulted anyone on here hypocrite. When I take advice off you its time to press the button.
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Post by crapslinger on Feb 18, 2020 11:35:29 GMT
That will teach em ner ner ner ner not that you have ever insulted anyone on here hypocrite. When I take advice off you its time to press the button. I would quit out of sheer embarrassment if I was you, how old are you ?
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Post by Eggybread on Feb 18, 2020 11:57:26 GMT
When I take advice off you its time to press the button. I would quit out of sheer embarrassment if I was you, how old are you ? How old are you??? Wtf has this board come to.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2020 12:36:19 GMT
I never said they've become tories. And I think the Labour Party are largely working for the same fundamentals, but they are worse at getting that over to the masses. I agree with the understand part, Labour have been awful compared with the Tories at getting their view across as reasonable and useful. I don't know how they solve it, because I do not feel like my views reflect the popular view of the UK currently, so it's difficult for me to pick based on who might do well in a GE. That's my original point about the leadership contest anyway. You're in turmoil because you think your views should be in tune with the working classes, whereas the current Labour Party has shifted so far to the left that it has alienated the working class. You genuinely think you know better and you can't understand why ordinary people have abandoned the party that was created for working people and the poor. The Labour Party serves itself, and not "The People" and if it continues down its current path, it will become a political faction and nothing more. The working class is not the property of the Labour Party and if it wants represent them, then it needs to resemble the values of ordinary people instead of telling them what to think and do. Not at all, you know that's crass and hugely reductive of how different people's views come across. I also don't think my views should be in tune with anyone else's, they're just my views. What should labour be representing then? What of its previous policies were not for the benefit of the working classes and what should it add? I am genuinely asking the question.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Feb 18, 2020 13:43:28 GMT
You're in turmoil because you think your views should be in tune with the working classes, whereas the current Labour Party has shifted so far to the left that it has alienated the working class. You genuinely think you know better and you can't understand why ordinary people have abandoned the party that was created for working people and the poor. The Labour Party serves itself, and not "The People" and if it continues down its current path, it will become a political faction and nothing more. The working class is not the property of the Labour Party and if it wants represent them, then it needs to resemble the values of ordinary people instead of telling them what to think and do. Not at all, you know that's crass and hugely reductive of how different people's views come across. I also don't think my views should be in tune with anyone else's, they're just my views. What should labour be representing then? What of its previous policies were not for the benefit of the working classes and what should it add? I am genuinely asking the question. I'm not sorry about being reductive as I like to get to the heart of things quickly and I find your and Labour's attitude to the working class to be elitist and patronising. I'm purely observing as an interested party, and I'm witnessing the Labour Party tear itself apart. It's not for someone like me to come up with policies. I watch with interest because I want to see a credible and effective opposition to the Tories. What I would say is that you need to decide whether you want to be in power or in protest as you cannot have both. It's going to take a Blair V2.0 to take the fight to Boris; a pragmatic politician that will ditch the identity politics. You might wish to move the agenda on, but ordinary people will not let you because it's alienating. It hurts my head that you cannot see it!
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Post by ColonelMustard on Feb 18, 2020 16:00:25 GMT
Not at all, you know that's crass and hugely reductive of how different people's views come across. I also don't think my views should be in tune with anyone else's, they're just my views. What should labour be representing then? What of its previous policies were not for the benefit of the working classes and what should it add? I am genuinely asking the question. I'm not sorry about being reductive as I like to get to the heart of things quickly and I find your and Labour's attitude to the working class to be elitist and patronising. I'm purely observing as an interested party, and I'm witnessing the Labour Party tear itself apart. It's not for someone like me to come up with policies. I watch with interest because I want to see a credible and effective opposition to the Tories. What I would say is that you need to decide whether you want to be in power or in protest as you cannot have both. It's going to take a Blair V2.0 to take the fight to Boris; a pragmatic politician that will ditch the identity politics. You might wish to move the agenda on, but ordinary people will not let you because it's alienating. It hurts my head that you cannot see it! With respect, Blair had his period of success because he got into bed with Murdoch after Murdochs falling out with Major. I dont recall dropping identity politics having anything to do with it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2020 16:05:06 GMT
Not at all, you know that's crass and hugely reductive of how different people's views come across. I also don't think my views should be in tune with anyone else's, they're just my views. What should labour be representing then? What of its previous policies were not for the benefit of the working classes and what should it add? I am genuinely asking the question. I'm not sorry about being reductive as I like to get to the heart of things quickly and I find your and Labour's attitude to the working class to be elitist and patronising. I'm purely observing as an interested party, and I'm witnessing the Labour Party tear itself apart. It's not for someone like me to come up with policies. I watch with interest because I want to see a credible and effective opposition to the Tories. What I would say is that you need to decide whether you want to be in power or in protest as you cannot have both. It's going to take a Blair V2.0 to take the fight to Boris; a pragmatic politician that will ditch the identity politics. You might wish to move the agenda on, but ordinary people will not let you because it's alienating. It hurts my head that you cannot see it! I very much agree that Labour are poor at getting their point across but I do not believe my attitude or theirs in most cases to be elitist or patronising. I don't think it is that Labour are elitist or patronising, just that not enough of the public agree with them.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Feb 18, 2020 16:28:23 GMT
I'm not sorry about being reductive as I like to get to the heart of things quickly and I find your and Labour's attitude to the working class to be elitist and patronising. I'm purely observing as an interested party, and I'm witnessing the Labour Party tear itself apart. It's not for someone like me to come up with policies. I watch with interest because I want to see a credible and effective opposition to the Tories. What I would say is that you need to decide whether you want to be in power or in protest as you cannot have both. It's going to take a Blair V2.0 to take the fight to Boris; a pragmatic politician that will ditch the identity politics. You might wish to move the agenda on, but ordinary people will not let you because it's alienating. It hurts my head that you cannot see it! With respect, Blair had his period of success because he got into bed with Murdoch after Murdochs falling out with Major. I dont recall dropping identity politics having anything to do with it. Murdoch's support was overstated for Blair's 1997 win, Murdoch was smart enough to know which way the wind was blowing. Blair turned Labour into a party that could win the trust of the nation (largely by taking on the unions and abolishing Clause IV and building on the previous fight against the Militant Tendency) and I don't see what identity politics had to do with politics in the mid 1990's. Blair's first term had energy and real change for ordinary people, it's a shame it turned to shit when success went to his head.
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Post by ColonelMustard on Feb 18, 2020 16:48:24 GMT
With respect, Blair had his period of success because he got into bed with Murdoch after Murdochs falling out with Major. I dont recall dropping identity politics having anything to do with it. Murdoch's support was overstated for Blair's 1997 win, Murdoch was smart enough to know which way the wind was blowing. Blair turned Labour into a party that could win the trust of the nation (largely by taking on the unions and abolishing Clause IV and building on the previous fight against the Militant Tendency) and I don't see what identity politics had to do with politics in the mid 1990's. Blair's first term had energy and real change for ordinary people, it's a shame it turned to shit when success went to his head. It was a turnaround from "last one out turn off the lights" on the eve of election for Kinnock to "it must be you" with a picture of Blair. Blair is godparent to his kid ffs. Hardly an uneasy truce of convenience. And exactly, identity politics had fuck all to do with it and had barely anything to do with it now. You can downplay the switch but Murdoch has won every election and referendum in 40 years. Major is quoted as saying Murdoch asked Major to change the Tory policy on joining the EU or he would take away his support. The decision was made before the wond changed. The only election Murdoch has been unhappy with the result was 2017. If the whole Labour Party campaigned he might have even lost it.
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Post by harryburrows on Feb 18, 2020 16:48:53 GMT
I'm not sorry about being reductive as I like to get to the heart of things quickly and I find your and Labour's attitude to the working class to be elitist and patronising. I'm purely observing as an interested party, and I'm witnessing the Labour Party tear itself apart. It's not for someone like me to come up with policies. I watch with interest because I want to see a credible and effective opposition to the Tories. What I would say is that you need to decide whether you want to be in power or in protest as you cannot have both. It's going to take a Blair V2.0 to take the fight to Boris; a pragmatic politician that will ditch the identity politics. You might wish to move the agenda on, but ordinary people will not let you because it's alienating. It hurts my head that you cannot see it! I very much agree that Labour are poor at getting their point across but I do not believe my attitude or theirs in most cases to be elitist or patronising. I don't think it is that Labour are elitist or patronising, just that not enough of the public agree with them. A Then clearly the message as always is the problem . To suggest the reason is the electorate failed to grasp the message is patronising to say the least 😉
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Post by ColonelMustard on Feb 18, 2020 16:55:57 GMT
I very much agree that Labour are poor at getting their point across but I do not believe my attitude or theirs in most cases to be elitist or patronising. I don't think it is that Labour are elitist or patronising, just that not enough of the public agree with them. A Then clearly the message as always is the problem . To suggest the reason is the electorate failed to grasp the message is patronising to say the least 😉 Failing to convince someone that your alternative is preferable and viable and stating that failure is not patronising. That's how politics works. If its said they were too stupid to get it then yes thats patronising, but to say they werent convinced is how it works. It's not Labours job to reflect public opinion, its their job to convince people they have a viable plan.
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Post by RichieBarkerOut! on Feb 18, 2020 17:01:57 GMT
A Then clearly the message as always is the problem . To suggest the reason is the electorate failed to grasp the message is patronising to say the least 😉 Failing to convince someone that your alternative is preferable and viable and stating that failure is not patronising. That's how politics works. If its said they were too stupid to get it then yes thats patronising, but to say they werent convinced is how it works. It's not Labours job to reflect public opinion, its their job to convince people they have a viable plan. So what happens if their plan is not viable?
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