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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 15:10:25 GMT
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 8, 2020 16:10:50 GMT
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Mar 8, 2020 17:17:59 GMT
Tell me from a legislative point of view where women are not equal to men in today’s society. I will use the UK as the model for this question. Im not talking about perception by individuals (as there is still some work to do) but from a legislative point of view.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 17:25:57 GMT
Tell me from a legislative point of view where women are not equal to men in today’s society. I will use the UK as the model for this question. Im not talking about perception by individuals (as there is still some work to do) but from a legislative point of view. Not legislative perhaps but there is still a pay gap and women are still disproportionately affected by austerity for example, climate change, and many other things.
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Mar 8, 2020 17:36:58 GMT
Tell me from a legislative point of view where women are not equal to men in today’s society. I will use the UK as the model for this question. Im not talking about perception by individuals (as there is still some work to do) but from a legislative point of view. Not legislative perhaps but there is still a pay gap and women are still disproportionately affected by austerity for example, climate change, and many other things. Pay gap is a misnomer and has been quashed many times when you take into consideration of same experience and same working terms and conditions. In fact, especially in the 35‘s and below (and the age range is rising) independent fiscal studies (Including CIPD of which I’m a member) have shown that under the same working role and conditions, including experience and length of service, women are earning slightly more. And you have proven my point legislatively women are not unequal. Such legislative practices take time to change individual perception but we are getting there.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 18:10:58 GMT
Not legislative perhaps but there is still a pay gap and women are still disproportionately affected by austerity for example, climate change, and many other things. Pay gap is a misnomer and has been quashed many times when you take into consideration of same experience and same working terms and conditions. In fact, especially in the 35‘s and below (and the age range is rising) independent fiscal studies (Including CIPD of which I’m a member) have shown that under the same working role and conditions, including experience and length of service, women are earning slightly more. And you have proven my point legislatively women are not unequal. Such legislative practices take time to change individual perception but we are getting there. ok
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Post by bigjohnritchie on Mar 8, 2020 18:24:08 GMT
On international Women's day
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Post by felonious on Mar 8, 2020 18:37:38 GMT
Any idea which one's Lilfraise's bird?
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Post by felonious on Mar 8, 2020 18:40:42 GMT
Tits together with anyone stupid enough to support them.
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 8, 2020 20:56:25 GMT
Arse. And. Gravy. "For the Paris Agreement to succeed, women and girls must be fully involved in climate policy"
Fuck off. Really, just don't bother with this shit. Put it another way...... is the Paris Agreement being held back by women and girls?
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Post by mermaidsal on Mar 8, 2020 21:44:06 GMT
so are all the anti-XR lobby happy to see the planet burn and flood by trusting the politicians who've been fucking up for nearly 40 years? for all its faults XR is the best we have and it's actually DOING SOMETHING. if you want to make XR work better than it currently does (God knows it's very far from brilliant) , come and join us instead of jeering from the sidelines and doing nothing??
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Post by mermaidsal on Mar 8, 2020 21:45:35 GMT
Pay gap is a misnomer and has been quashed many times when you take into consideration of same experience and same working terms and conditions. In fact, especially in the 35‘s and below (and the age range is rising) independent fiscal studies (Including CIPD of which I’m a member) have shown that under the same working role and conditions, including experience and length of service, women are earning slightly more. And you have proven my point legislatively women are not unequal. Such legislative practices take time to change individual perception but we are getting there. ok so the 17.3% pay gap just sort of doesn't exist then??? ffs
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Post by bathstoke on Mar 8, 2020 21:49:05 GMT
so the 17.3% pay gap just sort of doesn't exist then??? ffs I think Illfraise is displaying some despondencyXx
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 8, 2020 21:57:59 GMT
so the 17.3% pay gap just sort of doesn't exist then??? ffs Two simple questions. 1. What do you perceive as being a "gender pay gap"? 2. Where do you get 17.3% from?
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Post by mermaidsal on Mar 8, 2020 22:09:04 GMT
so the 17.3% pay gap just sort of doesn't exist then??? ffs Two simple questions. 1. What do you perceive as being a "gender pay gap"? 2. Where do you get 17.3% from? gender pay gap = the lifetime difference in income between women and men. not a matter of my perception, just the accepted definiton 17.3 = govt stats. widely available
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2020 22:12:25 GMT
so the 17.3% pay gap just sort of doesn't exist then??? ffs I agree, just being facetious on here because sometimes it isn't worth the argument
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 8, 2020 22:43:21 GMT
Two simple questions. 1. What do you perceive as being a "gender pay gap"? 2. Where do you get 17.3% from? gender pay gap = the lifetime difference in income between women and men. not a matter of my perception, just the accepted definiton 17.3 = govt stats. widely available A "lifetime" of what? A male hospital porter v a female surgeon? A female library assistant v a male lecturer in Classics at Oxbridge?
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Post by PotteringThrough on Mar 8, 2020 23:00:28 GMT
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not”.
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Mar 9, 2020 0:10:18 GMT
so the 17.3% pay gap just sort of doesn't exist then??? ffs And once again you’ve missed the point... totally! Hence the pay gap misnomer. In my organisation the “pay gap” is in favour of women of make up 64% of the work force. Should I be up in arms for the men? No, because I understand why... as you say... ffs!
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Mar 9, 2020 0:13:20 GMT
Two simple questions. 1. What do you perceive as being a "gender pay gap"? 2. Where do you get 17.3% from? gender pay gap = the lifetime difference in income between women and men. not a matter of my perception, just the accepted definiton 17.3 = govt stats. widely available Ha ha ha.... have you broken the stats down??? No I thought not and that is the issue. You are not comparing like for like where studies have shown that like for like in the Under 35s (and increasing in age) woman are earning more... But don’t let the facts get in the way of headline grabbing stats. And by the way, I’m not suggesting more could be done. Of course we need more women in higher positions and in time this will and should happen. But before you scream “look at the government data 17.3%” etc.... break it down and do a like for like representational research. Do a comparison in my sector (HR) and you will be very surprised if you did the same analysis as you just did. The headline data will show that the gender pay gap and representation will lean heavily for women and against men in the entry level and middle ranges with reports of 80% female representation and men being paid 16% less than women. At Senior level men do dominate but once again this is a legacy issue and is also reported to be due to a number of senior women taking time out to raise a family thereby stagnating their income level. Yet I understand this... and not screaming that male gap is 16% behind women! Furthermore do a representative comparisons between a man and a woman, both 30 years old, with the same experience, same length of service in the same role.... you will be very surprised how close they are if not in favour of women.
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Mar 9, 2020 0:21:13 GMT
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not”. Great quote... the issue is though are you caring for the greater good or for your own perception of the greater good?
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Mar 9, 2020 0:23:36 GMT
gender pay gap = the lifetime difference in income between women and men. not a matter of my perception, just the accepted definiton 17.3 = govt stats. widely available A "lifetime" of what? A male hospital porter v a female surgeon? A female library assistant v a male lecturer in Classics at Oxbridge? And this is the crux of the issue. It is not true that there is a 17.3 difference in pay for the same work, it’s the equality of representation in the positions that pay more.
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Post by mermaidsal on Mar 9, 2020 0:33:57 GMT
gender pay gap = the lifetime difference in income between women and men. not a matter of my perception, just the accepted definiton 17.3 = govt stats. widely available A "lifetime" of what? A male hospital porter v a female surgeon? A female library assistant v a male lecturer in Classics at Oxbridge? well no obviously not, do I sound like a total idiot?? these are aggregated figures for total female v male population.
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Post by mermaidsal on Mar 9, 2020 0:35:34 GMT
gender pay gap = the lifetime difference in income between women and men. not a matter of my perception, just the accepted definiton 17.3 = govt stats. widely available Ha ha ha.... have you broken the stats down??? No I thought not and that is the issue. You are not comparing like for like where studies have shown that like for like in the Under 35s (and increasing in age) woman are earning more... But don’t let the facts get in the way of headline grabbing stats. And by the way, I’m not suggesting more could be done. Of course we need more women in higher positions and in time this will and should happen. But before you scream “look at the government data 17.3%” etc.... break it down and do a like for like representational research. Do a comparison in my sector (HR) and you will be very surprised if you did the same analysis as you just did. The headline data will show that the gender pay gap and representation will lean heavily for women and against men in the entry level and middle ranges with reports of 80% female representation and men being paid 16% less than women. At Senior level men do dominate but once again this is a legacy issue and is also reported to be due to a number of senior women taking time out to raise a family thereby stagnating their income level. Yet I understand this... and not screaming that male gap is 16% behind women! Furthermore do a representative comparisons between a man and a woman, both 30 years old, with the same experience, same length of service in the same role.... you will be very surprised how close they are if not in favour of women. but.... exactly! we agree. doesn't make the headline any less valid imo tho
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Post by stayingupfor GermanStokie on Mar 9, 2020 0:56:42 GMT
Ha ha ha.... have you broken the stats down??? No I thought not and that is the issue. You are not comparing like for like where studies have shown that like for like in the Under 35s (and increasing in age) woman are earning more... But don’t let the facts get in the way of headline grabbing stats. And by the way, I’m not suggesting more could be done. Of course we need more women in higher positions and in time this will and should happen. But before you scream “look at the government data 17.3%” etc.... break it down and do a like for like representational research. Do a comparison in my sector (HR) and you will be very surprised if you did the same analysis as you just did. The headline data will show that the gender pay gap and representation will lean heavily for women and against men in the entry level and middle ranges with reports of 80% female representation and men being paid 16% less than women. At Senior level men do dominate but once again this is a legacy issue and is also reported to be due to a number of senior women taking time out to raise a family thereby stagnating their income level. Yet I understand this... and not screaming that male gap is 16% behind women! Furthermore do a representative comparisons between a man and a woman, both 30 years old, with the same experience, same length of service in the same role.... you will be very surprised how close they are if not in favour of women. but.... exactly! we agree. doesn't make the headline any less valid imo tho But it does because we are both coming at the same argument from different viewpoints, or in the poor ability to interpret meaning of text without the emotion and lilt of the spoken word. Your response about with the 17.3% gap came across to me as a “FFS men are paid more” gripe that is often used to denigrate the system and portray women within the language of victim hood. Normally an attack on men within the workplace. If that was not your intent I apologise but I hope you can understand how difficult to understand intent through text. Mine is a position of yes, there is a disparity but let’s have a look at why. Ah, there are more men in higher paid roles, or men are paid more in similar roles but is it like for like? Futhermore it should open the question of not just understand why there is a difference but benchmark so that male and female outputs are truly reflective in income. I,e, research shows that on average men work more hours than woman (for many different reasons) and if we prorated that to the same hours, with like for like experience and roles, would they show the same income. If not why not... more understanding is needed that simply headline data. For example, the only benchmarking I do for a salary for a role is if it compares against the market. Are we paying in line with the market or can we do better to attract the best candidate.... regardless of gender. If they are experienced with many skills we may pay above market rate (regardless of gender) if they are less experienced or new to that level they will be closer to the baseline. It was really noticeable on the last CIPD conference the amount of female HR personnel there were about 90-95% of attendees ranging from advisor to senior executive. The majority of us men were advisor/ junior management with one executive (me) less one of the speakers... In engineering (when i was working in Oil and Gas) the opposite was true and female engineers and project managers were scarcely seen! Guess which are the higher earning career pathways especially at entry level and middle management before we even see the even bigger gap at professional executive level between HR and engineering. BTW im not moaning about inequality in my sector, I understand why there is a „pay gap“ increasing to the advantage of women in HR. There’s more of them and they are increasingly starting to occupy the top jobs in our sector and i applaud that! The only thing im moaning about is my daft life choices that didn’t lead to a career in law 🤣
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Post by rogerjonesisgod on Mar 9, 2020 6:06:07 GMT
A "lifetime" of what? A male hospital porter v a female surgeon? A female library assistant v a male lecturer in Classics at Oxbridge? well no obviously not, do I sound like a total idiot?? these are aggregated figures for total female v male population. Aggregating totals is where the problem lies. Equal pay.
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Post by foster on Mar 9, 2020 10:01:29 GMT
Had an international Womens day breakfast at work last Friday. A couple of ladies did a presentation on gender %s by seniority in the company.
They focused on the 22% women at the very highest board level but didn't say anything about the fact that in the 3 lower categories (which represent 99.9% of our global employees), women represent a large majority.
In those 3 categories Women made up more than half in each of them and in the senior management level just below the board they made up over 70%.
So forgive me, but feminists and women whining about equal rights - especially those that weren't even around when women didn't have equal rights, can get lost.
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Post by Pretty Little Boother on Mar 9, 2020 10:20:58 GMT
Part of the problem is in calling it a "pay gap" which is a politically loaded term. As German Stokie has explained, there are numerous factors in this issue, so it would be wiser to call it an "earnings gap", because by and large, women do get paid the same as men for the same work.
Not only is this the law, but if companies could get away with paying women less money, then the entire workforce would be full of women.
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Post by PotteringThrough on Mar 9, 2020 10:55:14 GMT
“Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not”. Great quote... the issue is though are you caring for the greater good or for your own perception of the greater good? That's on you mate and what you decide to do.
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Post by felonious on Mar 9, 2020 12:47:12 GMT
gender pay gap = the lifetime difference in income between women and men. not a matter of my perception, just the accepted definiton 17.3 = govt stats. widely available A "lifetime" of what? A male hospital porter v a female surgeon? A female library assistant v a male lecturer in Classics at Oxbridge? Apples v Pears.
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